I'll ask again. Who was the starting point guard year 1 and 2 Low's frosh/soph year.
Who was the starting point guard Thames first year? The answers should explain why Thames/Low comparison is bunk and why one season was enough for Thames with Bone.
Ken Bone left Montana...
- Thread starter CougEd
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Who was the starting point guard Thames first year? The answers should explain why Thames/Low comparison is bunk and why one season was enough for Thames with Bone.
I don't take issue with your any of the above other than that Bone probably aided in the quick departure. However, Moore was his guy and it wasn't just because of on-the-court performance. Bottom line,Thames wasn't happy and he transferred. He didn't quit it just wasn't where he ultimately wanted to be and he never connected with Bone. Probably trusted Bone about as far as he could throw him. The point of my post(s) to Ed is that there is simply little to compare between Low and Thames. Very different situations.
Moore represented an opportunity to get into the Seattle market where no Cougar coach had any luck. He was also popular with his team mates. Why wouldn't you recruit him, and why wouldn't you play a guy who was contributing enough to be in the hunt for Pac 10 freshman of the year. A lot of frosh don't play good defense. Bone didn't want to lose Thames and it hurt the program when he left. Not sure what makes a player "his guy" but there was definitely an attitude among Coug fans that the only way to do it was Tonys way. Bones first team was only a couple of games worse than Tonys last team that had 3 key senior starters. With no upper classmen we were in a rebuild, but all we heard was how bad Bone was doing. Tony is a real good coach, better than Bone or Kent, but even Tony would have struggled with that team he left for Bone.
Bottom line is nobody is going to recruit enough talent to Pullman to win consistently, and anyone who has decent success for a couple of seasons is going to be looking elsewhere before the inevitable down turn.
Bottom line is nobody is going to recruit enough talent to Pullman to win consistently, and anyone who has decent success for a couple of seasons is going to be looking elsewhere before the inevitable down turn.
All of the above is why Bone hitched his wagon to Moore and probably more. Why he let him get away with murder from a lot of reports and treated him differently than other players in the program. See Sampson and Bennie Seltzer where after year 1 the JCs would have left if they weren't essentially stuck in Pullman. It has an impact on whether players feel they are getting a fair shake or outright lied to about the situation they were coming into.
If you can find a post where I have questioned playing Moore over Thames please do. I never brought Moore/Thames into this thread but have responded to posts that assumed my "hitched his wagon" posts was about Thames. What I will say about the situation is the playing time, the way Moore was treated, all of that most likely impacted Thames decision to leave. Thames obviously didn't have it out for Moore. They were close and that alone should have made it easy for Bone to get them to play together. Another reason I think Bone totally botched the Thames situation. How could he not create an environment for 2 close friends to thrive in? Not only did Moore not bring in other Seattle talent he didn't even last 4 years before the University kicked him out of school. It all blew up in Bone's face.
To Ed though, Thames 1 year in the program equates to Low's 3rd year change to off the ball. He throws out Witherall, Sauls, Hopson and forgets beyond Low there was Weaver, Rotchestie, and even Korprica pre-injury that could bring the ball up. Hopson was't exactly a failure either and had a nice start but turned the ball over too much and wasn't Rotchestie. The quitter talk is pathetic.
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Save just one of those things you and I will disagree upon. I don't think 45 days locked Moore into the starting line up for 4 years at point. I do think it is pathetic that a guy wanted the ball in his hands and didn't realize college ball is not high school ball where you set a high screen and roll. Did Low care if Rochestie initiated the offense by bringing the ball up court? Did Rochestie care if Weaver broke a press? Yes, if Thames gave it time, like reall time for himself and his teammates, then I would agree he simply "transferred" to a different program. When someone decides before the first Pac 12 game that they are transferring, and they could see the writing on the wall, then yeah, they quit. Just like dan Rowlands quit on his team two weeks before the season. Just like Jake Rodgers quit, just like Shelton Danzy quit.
He was going to get plenty of minutes and plenty of touches to handle the ball his last three years on campus. If you think Bone had enough time to "create" an environment for both to get along, then we disagree there as well. In 45 days he was simply seeing what his team could and couldn't do.
Like I said, Josh Acknognen gave it two years. Thames gave it 45 days and 9 preseason games.
Ed, you must be a lot closer to the program than I am or was during the Bone years. I saw a few of those games in Bone's first year....saw Thames play. From what I could see watching the games live, Thames hustled, did what he was told, and never appeared to be a guy "who mailed it in" after the preseason games. Perhaps my memory is getting fuzzy, but he seemed to be a much more decent young man than your description offers. I'll tell you what....he played defense a lot harder than Reggie Moore did, even after "mailing it in and quitting on the team". That's my opinion and observation from a few years ago. But you probably have insider information that I have never been privy to. It really appears to me that you are trying to vilify a player (Thames) for some reason. It was Reggie Moore, who broke the rules a couple of times and ultimately damaged Ken Bone's program as a result.
Glad Cougar
Glad Cougar
Glad...I had never shared that before cause Bone would never have wanted that to get out. He is too classy for that so I sat on that information for a long time. I am not trying to vilify Thames, I am simply pointing out I believe he quit on the team. I know why he left, and I know when he had decided to leave and when the coaches knew. Yes, Moore let Bone down, and let the team down, but so did Thames. And the reason Bone had to keep going to Moore is cause he had to win games and needed a point guard. And the one point guard Tony recruited and would have been ready by his soph year quit/transferred out.
And yes, just my personal opinion when a player "leaves" and doesn't give the program time to establish itself and let evaluations take place, then yeah I call it as I did. Forty five days in and a player comes back from Christmas Break and it was obvious he wanted to transfer, that is not enough time to see what works and doesn't, and it certainly isn't enough time experiment and find the rotation that best helps the team to win.
If Thames gave it two years and decided it wasn't for him, I would say he transferred to a program that was a better fit. But to transfer because you wanted to have the rock in your hand and be the primary ball handler and to make that determination after 45 days I think is quitting on your team and teammates.
Perhaps he did not like the coach or his lack of basketball expertise. One can make assumptions like you do to back a coach who was terminated for good reason I can not understand why one insists on talking about a coach who did not leave on good terms. The guy should have been terminated two years ago much like this thread.
Similar to El, you don't seem to want to acknowledge a healthy amount of assumptions that lead you to your conclusion(s). Since you know the reason he left was because he "wanted to have the rock" in his hands as the primary ball handler do you also know the reason he stuck to his commitment? My assumption is Bone told him he would come in and start at the point. That's a piece of the transfer equation. Did he make a commitment to Thames that he would compete for the position or lead him to believe before he signed that Thames had "the keys to the car", so to speak?
Well if Bone told Thames that he should have been fired the second day on the job. Do I think Bennett told Josh A, Low, rochestie, Baynes, Ambercrombie, Weaver, Cowgill, Henry that they would start from day 1? Nope. I would hope the sales pitch is Pac 12 competition, you will get every opportunity to contribute and play right away, that the staff will help you continue to develop your skills, help you get to the next level and most important you have a chance to help get WSU back to the tourney.
I remember Dick Bennett quoted in multiple places saying he told Low he had "the keys to the car" as his point guard. I guess that isn't a promise to start but given who else was in the class it's about as close as you can get. So guess they should have fired Dick.
On Bone/Thames, if you don't know what Bone told Thames before he signed how are you sure about your conclusions? I am making a lot of assumptions of my own. It's logical to me that Bone made some sort of promise to Thames to get him to sign that unraveled when he signed Moore and was potentially compromised further when Moore became the point guard.
You get so caught up around Moore being more productive than Thames you miss what I feel is an important piece. What Bone had promised Thames to get him to sign. If he made promises to Thames it makes sense Thames was done with Bone pretty quick. It also demonstrates why your comparison to Low is bunk. Dick made a promise, Low was the point guard year 1 and 2, then Tony switched Low off the ball year 3. Dick Bennett stuck to the promise he made to Low. Doesn't appear you have any more idea than I do whether or not Bone made a promise to Thames.
Actually I do. Let me say that is not Bone's style. I think I gave you a Bone pitch play by play, Like I said 45 days in and you aren't pounding the rock enough to me shows someone who gave up and quit on the program.
Did JA, Low, Henry, Harmeling, Weaver decide on their career 45 days into the season? Who was it that DB said couldn't guard a rocking chair?
Yes, he had signed but was apparently wavering after Tony left. How did Bone get him to stay?
You know from Bone or Thames? Someone else?
What do any of the above have to do with Thames? Akognon transferred! Still, they were all recruited and played for the same coaches. Thames was signed (as Bob corrected me) by Tony.
Yes, Josh A did transfer. Not after 45 days. You get that Josh did give it time. And he left because he wanted a more fast paced tempo. Thames didn't give it any time. Didn't give Bone time to figure out the best way to use he and Moore. And if he had stayed he would have been the point guard. But his decision was made before the first conference game. To me that is quitting and not transferring.
Pretty sure Thames went on to play on 3 NCAA Tournament teams over his final 3 seasons and started for his final 2 seasons at SDSU. It's also not like Thames was jumping from program to program even though he didn't start his first season at SDSU. The quitter narrative is in your head.
Ken Bone fostered an environment that ultimately resulted in Moore getting kicked out of school and him getting fired. Hitching his wagon to Moore and running his program the way he did basically ended up blowing up in his face. He had the talent to get to the Tournament Thompson's last year but all the off-court stuff sure didn't help. When 3 of your primary players make off-court news that has to say a little something about how the coach is running things.
Thames was long gone enjoying 3 straight Tournament appearances and getting talk for National POY his senior year. Unfortunately for us he seemed to make a good decision.
What's interesting is Ed's "45 days" time frame. Thames reaffirmed his commitment to WSU in April 2009. His transfer was announced in May 2010, with rumors of it surfacing in late April. Maybe Ed uses a different calendar?
Bottomline is that Bone had a true talent on his team, and he failed to retain him. But let's bring forth the Harthun/Witherill threads for diversion...
Here is the bottom line. We were a better team with both Thames and Moore, than with either of them individually. Bone couldn't keep Thames, and Tony wouldn't have gotten Moore. Both players improved on court performance over their college careers. Thames had injury problems that delayed his development, and Moore had off court issues that pre maturely ended his career. Tony struck out on guys who might have been a back up to Thames, and Bone struck out on guys to back up Moore.
After closely perusing the responses in this thread, I now think I understand CougEd and Ava's rationale regarding hoops: i.e. Bone and Tony did equally good jobs directing the team. There is no difference in their results. Fascinating.
You know, I have a friend who announced his divorce in April to the public, he and his wife knew in December this was coming down the pike. You can't keep a player happy if the player believes his self interest is above the team and thinks he has to be the primary "dribbler" and doesn't give the situation to develop.
Do you have any idea of Thames side of things? I doubt it. Even if everything you speak of is accurate and I am not saying it is accurate. There are a lot of assumptions and opinions on your part presented as facts. Regardless though these things happen a lot and you know what happens? The player transfers to another program just like Thames did in going to SDSU.
Thames moved on to SDSU and was in National POY conversations as a senior. Bone played Thames in all 31 WSU games and I guess despite knowing of the coming "divorce" managed to only be able to replace him with Winston. Bone strangled the life out of the WSU program and Thames went to 3 NCAA Tournaments. Unfortunately for us we ended up on the wrong side of that transaction.
By your definition there is no such thing as "quitting". They simply did what was in THEIR best interest. Wilson didn't quit, he was getting ready for the draft. Rowland's didn't quit, he simply left two weeks before the season opener.
The discussion about Thames leaving is one discussion, not getting a second point guard is another. Yes Bone played Thames, but he knew he was transferring, and giving a program 45 days before deciding to quit (or leave for your reading pleasure) As it pertains to Thames, let me ask you, if Moore got Thames minutes, and Thames got Moores minutes, but when they played together Moore brought the ball up do you think Thames sticks around?
Do you really think it was just an on-court issue? I don't know what went on inside the program and honestly neither do you Ed. I think Bone wasn't able to connect with Thames (or others in the program). It's possible with Tony leaving that nobody was going to connect with Thames but ultimately I don't believe Thames trusted Bone. It's definitely possible it wasn't Bone's fault but maybe a better coach would have been able to build the bridge. Bone wasn't that "better coach". Thames played out the season and transferred. No different than hundreds of other athletes every single year in college athletics. He ended up playing for 1 more program that had more depth at PG, was not the starter his first year, and ultimately was the PG for 2 years on a Tournament team.
The dots don't seem to connect with your rational "he had to have the rock in his hands" to stick around. Bottom line, it wasn't working, he transferred, and it sure seemed to work at his next stop. At WSU it ultimately was the beginning of the end. Bone was his own worse enemy.
After a year with Bone, Thames knew Bone was in over his head. He decided it was best to transfer, even though he'd have to sit a year and then face even greater competition for a starting position.
Like I said Save there are two issues. The first is Thames and thinking he quit. You or no one else will ever convince me 45 days into your college career is enough time to know if you trust a coach or you believe in the coach. Bone had enough success at SPU, UW, and PSU to indicate he can coach. Was he the perfect coach for those kids? Nope. The kids mailed it in before the first conference game. The staff knew he was gone, and hoped he would change his mind.
There was probably a handful of coaches that would have been the perfect fit. Even Tony with Casto, Thompson, Orchestie and Baynes could only win 8 conference games. Let's not pretend the program is the program handed to him by his dad. It wasn't. The difference is the coach who came in after Tony had to get rid of players that weren't Pac 10 players. Witherill, Hartune, Brown and even Simon. Do I think Adien, Ladd and Moore were better players? Yep. Do I think the wdere quality Pac 10 players? Yep.
Let's not pretend Tony didn't have his own struggles getting a PG on campus to replace Rochestie. Mac Hopson, Sauls and Witherill prove that Bone wasn't the only person who struggled in that endeavor.
As far as he being his own worst enemy, Bone made his fair share of mistakes, but Tony's last several classes while getting Casto and Thompson, they were young and they had their holes. There was no room for mistakes laike when you have Low, Cowgil, Harmeling as juniors.
In terms of being his own worse enemy, you tell me what was in Thompson's past or how Ken handled internal matters that would leave you to believe Thompson would smoke right before the most important game of the season, one that had tourney implications? How about Casto? You think not booting Moore his soph year would have changed the behavior of those two players? And do you think Bone or any coach would have dealt with Moore the way they did if Thames stuck around?
Well the dots might not make sense to you, as they don't to me. But that is what happened. I knew this when it happened. This isn't four years in hindsight. This was told to me as the season played out.
Damn just think if Thames had stayed Bonehead would have led them to the Final Four. I cannot believe that Ed somehow thinks that Thames was responsible for the Boneheads departure The only one keeping this thread and nostalgia for Ed s coach is Ed Amazing that this thread goes on and on like the Energizer bunny. Who really cares?
If Tony had stayed. Here is our roster for 2009-10. Seniors: Koprivicia. Juniors: none. Sophs: Thompson, Casto, Capers, Harthun, Witherill, Lodwick. Frosh: Motem, Thames, Brown, Watson ( rs ) Enquist, kid from South Carolina whose name escapes me.
No editorial comment here, just the facts. I will let Ed, Yaki, and ELC debate the quality of that team, and how it compared to his last team.
No editorial comment here, just the facts. I will let Ed, Yaki, and ELC debate the quality of that team, and how it compared to his last team.
All that matters is that it was enough time for Thames. Given Bone was fired it doesn't look like he made a bad decision. Can you come up with any reason to say his "45 day" decision was wrong for Thames? For Bone, for us, sure but for Thames it ended up just fine.
You don't think "45 days" is enough but also are conveniently dropping the 100 to 200 days before the first game for some reason. I guess it just fits your narrative better but Thames didn't just drop out of thin air on the first day of the season into Bone's lap. All the time from when Bone was hired until the end of the season count.
SPU is Division whatever and what success did Bone have at the UW as an assistant coach? Would you count Len Stevens or Paul Graham's "success" as assistants at WSU or Oklahoma State as well?
As for the rest of you post I already commented. I never said he should have "booted Moore his soph year. I said he never directly disciplined Moore his entire 3 years on campus. Discipline doesn't mean kicking him off the team but again I guess it fits your narrative.
I don't know what Thames and Moore have to do with each other other than to jam into your reasoning about Thames "quitting". I don't see anything factual to lead me to believe Thames transferring had much to do with Moore. They were friends and I think would have complimented each other well on the court. It's obvious Thames wasn't a match for Bone so Thames transferred and had a good deal of success.
You are good at poising your own questions and answering them as if I poised the question to you. Why would a "quitter" go to a program with more talent and depth at the PG position and stick around for 4 years including a transfer year? Why this "quitter who had to have the rock in his hands" spent his first year as a backup and stuck around at SDSU?
Does anyone know for a fact that Tony would not have been able to do any better than Ken Bone had he stayed at WSU that next year, even with the roster you listed? Or is it remotely conceivable that he could have coached that group up to better than the last place finish Bone had? It's all speculation, but I would not have bet against Tony Bennett keeping the program competitive, even with a young, inexperienced team.
Glad Cougar
Save...actually I don't think 45 days is enough to determine what will happen in your career. No I don't think 45 days in a light preseason schedule to really determine your strengths or weaknesses. Nor do I think it is enough time to determine your role.
As to the other 200 days, apparently Thames was ok with the "resell". And the other 199 days, do you really believe Bone or any coach was in daily contact with their recruits?
In terms of Moore, you talk about "culture", and how he made his own bed. He was given a different roster than the one Tony inherited. He was plugging holes the moment he walked on campus. Was it a good idea to hire a coach whose philosophy was clearly different than Dick Bennett's, and how DB's system required a particular athlete. Nope.
Yeah, Bone was fired. But would he have been fired if Thames stuck around and Thompson didn't get busted before the UCLA game, which was a determining game for the NCAA tourney?
Coaches get fired all the time. Leach was fired. Pete Carroll was fired. If you were to ask me if Bone was a good fit right after TB...nope. Would Bone been a better fit after George if Bone had been 48 ish in 1983? Yep.
You know a local high school team was third in their conference this past season. Parents pissed and moaned, even two prominent parents penned a letter probably 50 days into the season complaining about the coach and her coaching methods. You know after 50 days the parents didn't know crap, as that team ended up going to the state tourney and finishing in the top four. So no, as to your point about Thames knowing his role, how much he would handle the ball, and knowing if Bone would be successful he didn't know crap. yes, you are correct when you say it worked out for him personally. It did.
As to Thames, yeah he did fine for himself. Doesn't mean he didn't quit on the team and Bone. Hell, Wilson ended up ok in Chicago, I guess he simply decided what was best for himself. I am sure Shelton Danzy ended up being ok as well.
El--- I said Thames quitting was responsible for Bone's departure? I said Bone didn't get it done. I also said Thames quit 45 days into his career, mailed it in, and he came back from Christmas break knowing he was leaving.
If I recall correctly, that year the Cougs were like ten total points from 10th to 5th place. They lost a ultra bizarre game against Oregon. What they had was a very young team, and I would imagine if you could go back in time if we shot 70% from the foul line down the stretch we would have probably been in the top five of the conference, despite having a young team and one that was flawed.
Tony knew, and that is exactly why he got out of dodge. If he was actually offered the LSU gig the year before as it was reported he would have taken it. He would have been a one and done coach. He knew his recruiting wasn't the same as his dads.
Yeah, I think having the continuity Tony might have had two more wins. But we will never know because he took his first offer out of town.
Thames did what he felt was best. He played in all 31 games and had 3 starts during conference out of 4 for the year. If what you say is true maybe they were in desperation mode trying to keep him around but obviously it was too late. The damage was done. At some point between the time he decided to come to WSU and the end of the season Bone lost him and that's on Bone. He's the head coach, his program. He signed up for the roster he took over. Nobody put a gun to his head. He proved he couldn't really handle the gig.
Part of a coaches responsibility is to manage their talent. Mike Price sure had to manage Ryan Leaf. Would you have been ok with trading Brad Otton for the Rose Bowl in '98 if Price signs Otton and Leaf walks? We would have never known the outcome and obviously would have been better off with Otton in town short-term. I sure as **** am not comparing Thames to Leaf. It just goes to managing the talent you have on hand and keeping them in town. Something Bone failed at with Thames. Something he failed at with Moore in what appears to maybe have been a different set of rules than he had for other players. I'm also not going to call a kid a quitter that went on to play on 3 Tournament teams and get national POY discussion as a senior. Seems petty at minimum.
Would Bone have been fired if Thames stuck around? Well yeah and probably within the same amount of time. Bone was his own worst enemy.
