The biggest hole in Bone 's tenure was at the coaching position. He was incapable of ever filling that position adequately. Just think of a doughnut. Amazing that people debate this as if it makes any difference whatsoever. Absolutely amazing!!
Ken Bone left Montana...
- Thread starter CougEd
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According to CougEd Dick must be doing the recruiting at Virginia for Tony, because Tony is incapable of recruiting well enough to allow a team to win.
Tony worked his butt off recruiting before taking over for his dad.
It's always interesting to see posters who work hard to minimize Tony Bennett in order to somehow make Ken Bone look better. Just doesn't work for me. Bone had enough time to be judged solely on his own merits and he left the program a lot worse off than what he inherited.
Glad Cougar
Glad Cougar
I laughed over a recent post minimizing 52 wins in two years. Nuts. Just nuts.
Bone was here for longer than 2 seasons. Not getting back to the tournament for Bone was going to be held against him in terms of recruiting whether it was his fault, the roster he inherited, or both. Where things really tanked were over his final couple years. The lack of recruiting to his system, bailing on his system, talk of not allowing players to shoot, the total lack of energy and competitiveness his final year, and I'm sure other things behind the scenes. I don't think most expected Tony Bennett. Bennett had become a national level coach in terms of hype. The outcry of Bennett leaving speaks to the knowledge most understood another Bennett wasn't going to walk through the door. Bone couldn't get a gig anywhere else in the Pac 10/12. The way his team played at PSU against Gonzaga gave me some hope he could carve out something good in Pullman. It didn't work out but I personally have never tied Bennett to Bone.
Bone talked pretty big about what he needed to do to compete in Pullman. He said you needed 3 or 4 Klay Thompson's. At the end he agreed that you can't compete consistently in Pullman. When Sterk left his seat started to get warm and I think he panicked as the recruiting pipeline from Seattle wasn't coming together. He couldn't change the direction of the program or put things together quickly enough. Again, that had nothing to do with Bennett.
Bone sucked big time and was over his head. Not unusual in WSU coaches. Kent is as bad if not worse. Simply an awful job of recruiting by him and his entire staff. Not since Tony have we had decent recruiting.
Actually Bone was here 2 seasons to long if not more.
Actually Bone was here 2 seasons to long if not more.
First I don't dispute a thing you said about the overall 5 years. However we both know that guys were holding him up to unreasonable expectations before he ever had a losing season. One great player does not make a team and half the roster he inherited were not even solid role players
As the Peter Principle personified, Bone failed to take that "one great player," and add some other good players to continue the program's success. I personally never expected an endless run of NCAA tournament teams, but I did expect some competency. Bone was outcoached again and again. To top it off, he was boring as hell, and couldn't recruit.
You could put anyone's name in there. Doesn't make Bone look better, it makes Tony what he was...a placeholder that was handed a better team than he handed off to the next coach. The foundation was laid by his father. Virginia is a way different gig than WSU. In a three hour drive in any direction from Pullman how many D 1 players do you believe there are? Take a guess? 5? Drive three hours in Charlottesville you might find five on one high school basketball team. DeMatha back in the day had two guys who were the 6th and 7th players on the rosters as juniors and got full rides to NC State following their senior years- Derek Wittenburg and Sidney Lowe.
Mugsy Bogues, Reggie Williams and David Wingate came from the same High School in Baltimore. That is like the Saudi Royal family sitting on the oil fields. Virginia is in a target rich environment.
What I have said and will always say is the program that Tony handed off wasn't the same in terms of experience and talent that the one he inherited. Dick took all the bullets and when Tony had a chance to bolt he did. Would have rather he left after year one to be honest with you. Unfortunately LSU really never offered him the gig.
You post(s) like Tony had no involvment in recruiting his first 3 years in Pullman. All the original players knew they would most likely finish their career with Tony as their head coach. Your head is in the sand on a lot of things on this Ed. Poor Ken Bone. Saddled with no talent and quitters. How the guy ever was able to win a game must seem like miracle work in your view.
This has been pointed out numerous times. One of the reasons Bone was so excited about getting the job was the talent TB left behind. But Bone squandered what would have been an excellent starting point for any new coach.
Good grief Save. Who said Tony didn't have involvement. But if you don't see the difference between the quality of Dick's second and large class, and Tony's don't know what to say/ The reason Thames or even Moore were so important is that Hopson, Sauls or Witherill weren't Pac 10 quality point guards.
Bone only inherited one quitter. He inherited a young team that had to immediately rid itself of 1/3 of its roster cause they weren't Pac 12 quality. Tony inherited experience, quality and talent. Tony wasn't choosing between two freshman Pg's was he? He wasn't trying to figure where the points were going to come from past Low.
Heads not in the sand. Ken didn't win enough and was fired. I know what Tony did with Rochestie, Baynes and Thompson. He was sub .500 in conference. And my guess if he stuck around he would be sub 500 and his recruiting would struggle. Sorry, as good as a coach as Tony is he wasn't going to make Simons, Witherill, Hartune or Brown Pac 10 players.
People like Save and I aren't going to change your mind and we're not trying to. But you aren't going to change anyone's mind either. If Ken Bone couldn't develop a strong program around a beginning nucleus of Thompson, Casto, Motum, Capers, and...yes....Thames, ALL recruited by TONY Bennett, not DICK Bennett...then he was not ever going to get it done at WSU. And as soon as TONY Bennett recruits, not DICK Bennett recruits, were out of the program, the Cougars became a Pac-12 doormat.
Your guess is Tony would be sub 500 and struggle at WSU had he stuck around. Very simply, I disagree. You like to point to the close losses and screw job vs. UO that Bone endured ("they were so close from not finishing in last, but finishing in a tie for 5th"), fair enough. But keep in mind that it works both ways. That 8-10 conference finish for Tony's last team lost 4 conference games by 2 points or less. Win 2 of those games and WSU is tied for 3rd and a certain three-peat NCAA team.
Glad Cougar
Your guess is Tony would be sub 500 and struggle at WSU had he stuck around. Very simply, I disagree. You like to point to the close losses and screw job vs. UO that Bone endured ("they were so close from not finishing in last, but finishing in a tie for 5th"), fair enough. But keep in mind that it works both ways. That 8-10 conference finish for Tony's last team lost 4 conference games by 2 points or less. Win 2 of those games and WSU is tied for 3rd and a certain three-peat NCAA team.
Glad Cougar
Ed has always wrapped his pasty, stubby legs around loser coaches at WSU. He enjoys the position so much that no sense of reason and logic will change it.
First, explain why you think Tony would have done better in 2010 without Baynes Rochestie and Forrest than in did in 2009 with them. Thames was no Rochestie as a frosh, Motum was a total project compared to Forrest as a senior. Casto to Baynes. Well Baynes is in the NBA and the last I saw of Casto he was in line at a Panda Express on the south hill. The rest of the roster was not even D-1 talents other than Klay, who by the way was on Tonys 2009 team that went sub 500.
Some of you guys remind me of the old Rodney Dangerfield joke when it comes to coaches. Like Dangerfield, who wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have him, you wouldn't want any coach who would take the WSU job. Tony was better than Bone or Kent, and he left on the first ship out.
Some of you guys remind me of the old Rodney Dangerfield joke when it comes to coaches. Like Dangerfield, who wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have him, you wouldn't want any coach who would take the WSU job. Tony was better than Bone or Kent, and he left on the first ship out.
Bob,
I can't tell if your post was in response to mine, but I'm assuming it is. I don't know if Tony would have done better in 2010 vs. 2009, probably not. It was a young team. But by the following year, it's my opinion that he would have had the team in the NCAA tournament, not the NIT. And going forward, the program would have been more competitive than Bone ever had it. I also think Tony would have won a couple more games in 2010 than Bone did. I just think he's a better coach all the way around....developing players, in game strategy, getting players to play hard for him (which was not always the case with Bone and his players, IMO). I believe he would have gotten more out of the roster than Ken Bone did...and I speculate he would have brought in better players than Bone did. The fact that Tony is coaching and winning at Virginia and Bone just left an assistant coaching position at Montana is maybe a hint that the rest of the college basketball world feels the same.
I know it sounds crazy....but I just have this hunch that Tony Bennett would have done better from 2010-2014 than Ken Bone.
Glad Cougar
I can't tell if your post was in response to mine, but I'm assuming it is. I don't know if Tony would have done better in 2010 vs. 2009, probably not. It was a young team. But by the following year, it's my opinion that he would have had the team in the NCAA tournament, not the NIT. And going forward, the program would have been more competitive than Bone ever had it. I also think Tony would have won a couple more games in 2010 than Bone did. I just think he's a better coach all the way around....developing players, in game strategy, getting players to play hard for him (which was not always the case with Bone and his players, IMO). I believe he would have gotten more out of the roster than Ken Bone did...and I speculate he would have brought in better players than Bone did. The fact that Tony is coaching and winning at Virginia and Bone just left an assistant coaching position at Montana is maybe a hint that the rest of the college basketball world feels the same.
I know it sounds crazy....but I just have this hunch that Tony Bennett would have done better from 2010-2014 than Ken Bone.
Glad Cougar
It does work both ways. Here is the difference however, WSU had the experience and talent when it came down to crunch time in those four games you mentioned. They had depth and experience. And you mentioned Casto (12 points a game player) Motum (12 points a game player early on) Thompson(16 points game player) Capers (six points a game). That is 46 points a game. WHO was going to get them the ball? That is what was so important and missing. Moore early was the best option. He was capable of 10-12 a game.
The whole point being is while Tony left some good parts, he left some real duds in terms of role players. Bone (or you name a coach) was stuck with four or five players who were not even quality back ups, and there was zero experience at PG. If Tony had left the program in the shape Dick left it to Tony, I would concur Bone was a miserable failure. But Bone had to spend year one and the offseason getting rid of almost half his roster. That is Casto and Thompson second year. In his second year they were one win away from getting to the tournament despite having holes in the roster. You don't think having Thames play with that team would have helped? So what happens before the most important game in Bone's tenure? Thompson gets suspended for one game. Just happened to be the post important game.
Going into year three WSU for the FIRST time lost two players early to the NBA draft. Do I believe the course would have been different if Thompson and Casto stayed? Probably because it would have allowed a little wiggle room and they would have had momentum. I knew that moment Bone was done. You don't lose two players like that early and not have a rebuild .
So to your point, you are correct you won't change my mind. And to be honest I am not trying to change yours. But when save says I have my head buried in the sand, I will state my position, which is all I am doing.
I do find it rather hilarious to be honest we almost idolize Tony and he was Dennis Erickson with dark hair. He was handed the keys to a program that was rebuilt by his dad, and he would have left after year one if someone had offered him a job.
Bone didn't get fired after his first or second year. He had 4 years to recruit. What happened? Bone felt he needed "3 or 4 Thompson's" and he wasn't able to really bring in anyone better than Thompson, Motum, or what Thames ended up at SDSU to Pullman. I'll give him Hawkinson over Casto but too late in and not enough else on the roster to do much good. Bone rescinded a kids scholarship (I know, "mutual agreement) to sign a JC point guard that was kicked out of school befor the beginning of practice. You can't make that kind of stuff up but you have concluded Bone's problem was the roster he was left by Tony and early departure? No doubt though that when Tony's recruits left things didn't improve. We tanked.
Bone was a dismal failure.
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Glad: I agree Tony probably does better over the course of 5 years. My primary point was about the team Bone inherited in 2010 and the fact critics were already calling for his hide in the midst of a season not unlike 2009 in terms of on court success. Remember in 09 we had a blow out loss to GU at home. Lost to Baylor at home. Blew a lead and lost to a mediocre LSU team on the road and lost to Pitt, giving us no quality non conference wins. This in addition to going sub 500 in conference.
The final 10 games of Bennett's final year and Bone's first year went a bit different. Not huge but there was a difference. Bennett won 4 and picked up a Pac 10 Tournament win and NIT appearance. Bone won 2 and went out in the 1st round of the Pac 10 Tournament. Potentially Bone's first year was simply the natural progression of the program at that point but Bone didn't have 2 Tournament appearances to hang his hat on (see Mike Price post-1998 Rose Bowl).
If Bone was able to maintain and/or improve on year 2 we wouldn't be talking about "where's Ken Bone" today. He would be in Pullman or I guess maybe in another head coaching job like Bennett.
Ed,
You mention that Tony left Bone 4 or 5 players that were not even quality backups. Who were they? I'm looking at the roster for that season and I'll give you Anthony Brown and Mike Harthun. Who else was not a quality backup? Maybe James Watson? That's debatable, he wouldn't be a starter but possibly part of the rotation. Witherill was gone under Tony's watch.
Here are players Tony left for Bone that I think should be considered as starters or backups:
Thompson
Casto
Kopravica
Lodwick
Capers
Thames
Motum
Enquist
Watson
That's nine players, IMO, that probably deserved to be on the roster, get some playing time, and were able to contribute. So where's the "half of the team" Bone had to get rid of because they weren't even good enough to be backups?
As you know, Thompson, Casto, Lodwick, Capers, Motum, and even Enquist were contributors to subsequent Ken Bone teams and all with the probable exception of Enquist played big roles on Bone's post season teams. Yep, they were all left in the cupboard by Tony Bennett for Ken Bone. Either they were pretty decent players or Bone couldn't recruit better ones to take their place.
Glad Cougar
You mention that Tony left Bone 4 or 5 players that were not even quality backups. Who were they? I'm looking at the roster for that season and I'll give you Anthony Brown and Mike Harthun. Who else was not a quality backup? Maybe James Watson? That's debatable, he wouldn't be a starter but possibly part of the rotation. Witherill was gone under Tony's watch.
Here are players Tony left for Bone that I think should be considered as starters or backups:
Thompson
Casto
Kopravica
Lodwick
Capers
Thames
Motum
Enquist
Watson
That's nine players, IMO, that probably deserved to be on the roster, get some playing time, and were able to contribute. So where's the "half of the team" Bone had to get rid of because they weren't even good enough to be backups?
As you know, Thompson, Casto, Lodwick, Capers, Motum, and even Enquist were contributors to subsequent Ken Bone teams and all with the probable exception of Enquist played big roles on Bone's post season teams. Yep, they were all left in the cupboard by Tony Bennett for Ken Bone. Either they were pretty decent players or Bone couldn't recruit better ones to take their place.
Glad Cougar
You know Sampson was here for more than two seasons. Heck, his third season they won one conference game. Tony was here more than two seasons. He was part of a staff rebuilding a horrible program that took 4 years to get to 20 plus wins. And when they had to rely on Tony's recruits only the program wasn't the same as what he inherited.
Glad, when Bone took over who was his experienced pg? I mean like the experience he had with Low and Rochestie, and you could even rely on Weaver to handle the ball. Who was there? Witherill was on the roster when Bone took over, and when he left, everyone was signed. Witherill was one, Harthun was two, Watson was three, Brown was four, and Enquist was a paperweight. 4 1/2. Waton was 5. That is almost half theroster. Was Charlie offered a scholie by Tony or did he walk on then get a scholie?
Yes, Lodwick was a "functional player, but struggled shooting for some odd reason. He was 6 a game. Kopr played well, Bone had him for one year. Who was the point guard to lead a very young team?
There are good coaches who fail. Bone made three mistakes. The first was going away from what Tony did on defense. But his rational was sound, and if Sterk wanted felt the defense needed to continued hire a coach who has experience with it. If Sterk wanted a slowed down offense, hire Ben Johnson who worked under Tony. That would be like hiring Buddy Ryan and wanting him to run the no huddle wide open offense. That is on management.
The second mistake was believing he was going to be able to tap into the Rainier Beach, down town Seattle pipeline. Again, it made sense because he had great connections and he is very well respected in the Seattle community. The third was not being able to get a stable PG who could make others better around him. should have been Thames if he stuck around, but he didn't.
I have talked to a person just recently about Bone, and he coached at the highest levels. Without prompting he said Ken Bone is a very good coach. A very good coach. And I agree. Unfortunately for everyone he didn't get it done at WSU.
I guess you don't realize Bone's best overall and conference record was his 2nd year.
#HeadInTheSand
Enquist was a walk-on. Witherill was set to transfer if Bennett stayed.
Bone had his own philosophy and it wasn't 'Bennett-ball'. Why would he keep Tony's system? He was hired to run and recruit to his system.
The second mistake you make reference to has about 50 years of history behind it and Bone didn't have any track record to support a Seattle pipeline. He was an assistant at the UW who could have had Paul Graham and probably still get Seattle recruits. Bone never recruited anyone of note to PSU while he was there although he did well with some UW transfers. Gonzaga still can't recruit Seattle to much of an extent. If that was his plan he was DOA.
Bone had 5 years. Isn't that enough time to recruit his own guys? Why are you so fixated on year 1 when it was 2 through 5 that got him fired?
Of course, then what were suppose to be his seniors they left early, which no other coach in WSU history has had early NBA entries. Not Raveling (had Collins House and the like all four) not Sampson. Combine that with a class that Hartune Witherill, Watson, Brown you had no experience to carry the day. And you do get Tony's two most successful seasons where players that were recruited by his dad's name. Low didn't come to Pullman because of Tony. And you get with Tony with his own players he would have been worse year four than three without Rochestie and Baynes.
Why am I so fixated on year one and two? Easy. That was the momentum. While there were some very nice pieces, that was not a tourney team like Tony inherited. It simply wasn't. Tony inherited really three point guards with experience. Rochestie, Low, and Weaver. Bone inherited no one, zip with experience. So in some respects it was a rebuild. If Thames didn't quit that would have given Bone a reliable player to count on for three years.
In terms of Seattle, really, Paul Graham could have pulled out the players from the CD if he was the head coach. Romar has struggled a ton since Bone left. Do you live in the Seattle area? Do you know his reputation on this side of the mountains?
I love the PSU comparison. In 20 years of the schools history how many times have they gone to the tournament? Two? How many times have they won the Big Sky Title? Twice?
How many times have they had APR issues?
As Glad said neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. It's ridiculous to call Thames a quitter but you need a scapegoat to justify Bone's failure. You won't put it on Moore because Bone hitched his wagon to him.
On so many levels Bone was in way over his head. At this level he's a solid assistant. He's simply not a head coach at the high mid-major or P5 level.
Bottom line, when Bone took over the program was in a lot better shape than what he left. All you can ask a coach to do is leave it better than you found it. At least maintain it. Bone's last year was an undeniable brutal watch. Bone sucked the life out of a program that was competitive when he took over. As bad as last year was to watch I have never seen most of a roster over such a sustained amount of time play with zero energy, confidence, and scared as we did the last year under Bone. If Bone was even somewhat decent maybe Moos doesn't fire him because Moos' focus is all on football. Bone was that bad!
I'm not going to change your mind but the program was rock bottom when Bone was fired and that's not on an 18 year old who transferred to another program. That's on the head coach.
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The WSU job is one of the toughest in the country. Not just because of lack of tradition, but travel for both recruiting and games. Add the lack of resources compared to the competition, and you get a program where decent coaches cant cut it, and great coaches either get out quick or burn out. Tonys recruiting was drying up compared to the 2 great classes he and his dad brought in. Klay was a great get, but a bit lucky as no other Pac 10 school offered. Casto was a future flunk out no matter who was coaching. We certainly would have gotten Joe Harris had Tony stayed, but look at the other kid who was coming along with Brown Motum and Thames. He didn't even get a college offer after he decomitted when Tony left. Tony was never going to get in to Seattle either. A Klay or Harris every 3 or 4 years plus counting on under the radar guys to blossom as the first classes did is not a prescription for long term success. Guys were aghast that Tony took the Virginia job. It was such a no brainer that I am surprised he even hesitated. Great resources, fertile recruiting territory, and prestigious university.
Lots of good x's and o's coaches around, including Bone. Its all about recruiting, and Pullman is an albatross around the neck of the best recruiters.
Lots of good x's and o's coaches around, including Bone. Its all about recruiting, and Pullman is an albatross around the neck of the best recruiters.
Maybe people have expectations that are too high for WSU basketball, but I'm glad to see that some fans care enough to not be satisfied with the kind of basketball we've seen the past 4-5 years in Pullman. I've followed Cougar basketball since the Jim McKean days, so I understand the challenges inherent with our basketball program. Despite understanding the context of Tony's unprecedented three-year post season run, I still believe Ken Bone squandered a great opportunity to keep Cougar basketball relevant and competitive. Instead, Ernie Kent has to perform a Herculean feat to resurrect this program. Maybe you are right, Ava, that no coach will ever be able to do that in Pullman. But I still believe there are coaches out there, like Tony Bennett was at the time, who are young, dynamic, energetic and have the skills to keep the program moving in the right direction, or at least not lose a lot of ground. If that coach leaves us after three years, I'm okay with that since it will probably mean he had success.
Glad Cougar
Glad Cougar
Ichabod Bone, the dorky former UW assistant, hardly took Seattle by storm (did Reggie Moore even get a UW offer?).
Here's Bone on his way to Pullman, a place where no one can win...
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I tire of this Bob. 90 minutes south of Gonzaga and OMG its just so hard to recruit. About 1 5000 % better campus. Pac-12. And oh its just too hard. It takes far longer to drive from UCLA to LAX then Pullman to Spokane International.
BS is what I say to this. June has a pretty decent recruiting class to the same place year-after-year. No money. No fan support. Just Pac12 basketball. Why she can
get 2 4-star players even with major staff changes and Mr. Kent can not is a total
mystery to me.
George got 'em, Kelvin got 'em, Bennett's got some. Why can't Kent. IMHO if you have a lousy staff fire 'em and hire a new staff. If Montana is easier than Pullman to recruit to I will eat your hat. Yet they kill recruiting in Seattle and else where.
QUOTE="avabob11, post: 117609, member: 646"]The WSU job is one of the toughest in the country. Not just because of lack of tradition, but travel for both recruiting and games.
Its all about recruiting, and Pullman is an albatross around the neck of the best recruiters.[/QUOTE]
BS is what I say to this. June has a pretty decent recruiting class to the same place year-after-year. No money. No fan support. Just Pac12 basketball. Why she can
get 2 4-star players even with major staff changes and Mr. Kent can not is a total
mystery to me.
George got 'em, Kelvin got 'em, Bennett's got some. Why can't Kent. IMHO if you have a lousy staff fire 'em and hire a new staff. If Montana is easier than Pullman to recruit to I will eat your hat. Yet they kill recruiting in Seattle and else where.
QUOTE="avabob11, post: 117609, member: 646"]The WSU job is one of the toughest in the country. Not just because of lack of tradition, but travel for both recruiting and games.
Its all about recruiting, and Pullman is an albatross around the neck of the best recruiters.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if WSU got a ten year running head start being the big fish in a small pond we would have the tradition. Then we might have more resources. Bottom line it is an hour and a half drive to the airport to get on a plane to go anywhere with a pool of D-1 athletes.
Ed, tell me how many of UVa's top eight players were "a three hour drive" from Charlottesville last season? Perrentes (sp?) was from LA! Brogdon from ATL...I believe. Not sure more than one was that close to Charlottesville.
Lewiston is 30 minutes away. Not 90 minutes. Connect through SLC to anywhere you need to go.
