KSU vs WSU
- Thread starter Flatlandcoug
- Start date
Ed. Let's take a look at look at 2008. As of May 2008.
OFFENSE Returning Starters: 6
QB 17 Gary Rogers 6-7, 234, Sr.
18 Cole Morgan 6-2, 198, Jr. OR12 Kevin Lopina 6-3, 229, Jr. OR12 Marshall Lobbestael 6-3, 201, RFr.
RB 31 Dwight Tardy 5-11, 212, So.34 Chris Ivory 6-0, 228, Jr.WR 4 Brandon Gibson 6-1, 202, Sr.80 Greg Walker 6-3, 175, So.
WR 15 Benny Ward 6-3, 186, Sr.
88 Anthony Houston 6-3, 201, So.
WR 86 Daniel Blackledge 6-2, 179, So.
22 Michael Willis 6-1, 204, Jr.TE 80 Devin Frschknecht 6-3, 256, Sr.
48 Ben Woodard 6-5, 249, Jr.
LT 55 Vaughn Lesuma 6-5, 340, Sr.67 Joe Eppele 6-7, 277, So.
LG 73 Andrew Roxas 6-1, 295, So.
79 B.J. Guerra 6-3, 315, RFr.
C 69 Kenny Alfred 6-2, 293, Jr.78 Steven Ayers 6-4, 299, RFr.
RG 60 Dan Rowlands 6-5, 290, Sr.56 Kevin Freitag 6-4, 316, RFr.
RT 76 Micah Hannam 6-4, 279, So.66 Reed Lesuma 6-3, 302, Jr.
DEFENSE Returning Starters: 7
DE 93 Kevin Kooyman 6-6, 242, Jr.
98 Jesse Feagin 6-3, 261, Sr.
DT 77 Matt Eichelberger 6-4, 317, Sr.
90 Toby Turpin 6-6, 268, So.
DT 92 A’I Ahmu 6-0, 292, Sr.74 Andy Roof 6-4, 299, Sr.
DE 45 Andy Mattingly 6-4, 241, Jr.96 Mike Graise 6-3, 220, Sr.
LB 38 Cory Evans 6-2, 240, Sr.53 Hallston Higgins 5-10, 215, So.LB 52 Grent Trent 5-11, 220, Sr.47 Marshal Pirtz 6-0, 231, RFr.
LB 49 Kendrick Dunn 5-11, 224, Sr.51 Jason Stripling 5-11, 219, Jr.
CB 6 Markus Dawes 5-11, 193, Sr.
29 Romeo Pellum 5-10, 162, So.
SS 26 Xavier Hicks, Jr. 6-0, 193, Jr.
13 Myron Beck 6-0, 207, So.
FS 21 Chima Nwachukwu 5-11, 189, So.25 Easton Johnson 5-11, 196, So.
CB 18 Alfonso Jackson 5-9, 204, Sr.37 Tyrone Justin 5-11, 151, RFr.
So Wulff with 13 of 22 returning starters from a team that won 5 games....won 1 damn game.
5 games..... > 1 Game.... BRAVO WULFF BRAVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Oh yes my mistake! 2 WINS Well thank goodness our hero will lead us to more wins in 2009...it couldn't get worse than 2 wins...OH WAIT IT F ING DID. But wait now those pesky 2004 class is gone now we will see a jump right?!?!? 2 WINS!!! YEAHH!!! GET OUT THE COACH OF THE YEAR AWARD! CALL EVERYBODY WE ARE BETTTERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! WULFF WULFF WULFF WULFF! I'll bet other programs are chomping at the bit to hire him now!
And since I am a numbers guy...
The last time we had won just 2 games or less in a season.... 1974
34 years.... we hadn't won 2 or less games in 34 years....
And Wulff did it 3 times in a row. Let that sink in.
The last time we ever did that. 1922,1923, 1924....
84 years ago.
That's how bad he was. And now he has his part in our history. That's his legacy now.
The first coach to have us win just 2 games or less in 30+ years. The first coach to have us lose 2 games or less 3 times in a row in 80+ years. Paul "Doing it the right way" Wulff. 2008-2011
Now excuse me while I cheer for the HC who took us to a bowl game, and is working on trying to build us a real future...not destroy everything we worked so hard to build.
The last time we had won just 2 games or less in a season.... 1974
34 years.... we hadn't won 2 or less games in 34 years....
And Wulff did it 3 times in a row. Let that sink in.
The last time we ever did that. 1922,1923, 1924....
84 years ago.
That's how bad he was. And now he has his part in our history. That's his legacy now.
The first coach to have us win just 2 games or less in 30+ years. The first coach to have us lose 2 games or less 3 times in a row in 80+ years. Paul "Doing it the right way" Wulff. 2008-2011
Now excuse me while I cheer for the HC who took us to a bowl game, and is working on trying to build us a real future...not destroy everything we worked so hard to build.
Last edited:
In reading this post, I noticed a claim that the 2004 class was the highest rated class ever. It wasn't. But it is yet another desperate defense of all things Wulffian.
Oh yes! The magical juice boxes and orange slices bowl. The same yr we got blown out by Oregon State and ASU. The same yr we had a losing record, lost the Apple Cup, and lost to Colorado St.
Which year did the last coach get to the "juice boxes and orange slices" bowl? I don't remember it...
You get that every time you belittle our school's success under Leach as a nothing but a participation trophy, it just underlines how shitty a coach incapable of even that must be, right?
Last edited:
The same year we beat USC in the coliseum for the first time in 13 years.
The same year we shut out another team in 10 years.
The same year we were invited to a bowl in 10 years.
The same year we finished the regular season 6-6 in 7 years
The same year we we beat 4 Pac-12 schools in 7 years
Tron...I hear you. I know the names of the people. So you are appalled that a team with so many starters would dump from 5 wins to two wins. Is that correct? So losing our starting qb with that many starters returning what should the expectation have been in terms of wins? Losing our two defensive tackles should have meant what in terms of wins and losses.
IYou are not going to change my mind about where the prgram started from in 2008, but I do want to understand where you stand on talent, stars, etc? Lets start on the defensive line. Just so I am clear, who would you rather start a program with if you were taking over. Matt E, Ahmu, Kooyman and Graise, Turpin? Am I missing a name or two? Or Cooper, Pole, Laurenzi, Long, Paulo, and any other name we want to throw in there? This is a legit question. Who would you rather have?
I know...that is great and that is disturbing all in the same breath. While there where underpinnings of more problems the fact they went bowling is great. What I guess is disturbing is that was done with the previous guys bad recruits. You do at least get the concern? If the recruits are so much better how do you go from 6-6 and the accomplishments in which you mentioned to 3-9 and having a defense rival the 2009 defense?
Why don't you try to come up with a rational explanation for it- everyone has told you ad nauseam why last year's team wasn't as good as they could have been, yet you keep returning to this nebulous "concern".
Yet when addressed, your concerns essentially boil down to "youth" and "injuries"- concerns this program ALWAYS has, even in their best years. Did we have those last year? Yes, a lot. Was a part of it because Wulff's terrible recruiting forced youth in? Yes, a lot.
Yes, I agree, Ahmu had bigger offers than everyone combined. BArtilone for example had no offers, what does that tell me? He isn't a Pac 10 player? So you would tell me based on that nugget alone you would take 2008 of Kooyman, Graise, Matt E and Ahmu? I just want to make sure I am not putting words in your mouth.
Now, or in 2011 when Leach took over? I'd rather have Leach coaching either one than Wulff. And when we make the choice you're offering, what we're really saying is the group coached by Leach significantly outperformed the group coached by Wulff. Now, is that because of the coach, or the group?
But Doba's didn't, got it. It is really simple, 3 things that hurt 2014. Youth in the secondary. Why was their youth? Cause we missed on two very important players in 2012. DB and RB are two positions that take the least amount of time to develop. Yes, I fully expected a break down or two in 2014 in the back four that would cost us a game. That is what I thought going into 2014. I thought 2014 would probably bring us 5-7. But what I didn't expect was players just running free in the secondary and not having a clue who to cover, I mean this I really don't remember that many open people just running free play after play in 30 years of football. I certainly cloud be losing it and that is just so fresh.
The second concern is no real pass rush. None. We don't put the QB on his back consistently enough to protect the back four. And third, and I will say I am bias to the Bill Doba 4-3, but as Biggs says unlike the NFL colleges only have so much time to input a defense. And I don't know really what they recruit to, a 3-4 or 4-3 cause they certainly played such a mix of the two, and as Biggs also points out different technique and different responsibilities. Do i know this compounded the issue, nope.
There are areas you and I have a wide disagreement. Two years ago I would tell you with certainty that if I could predict 2014 with a 3-9 record, that it would have been an been an anomaly. In 2015 I can tell you I THINK 2014 was an anomaly. Where I disagree with you is I am not sure what Grinch brings to the table. I don't know if the DBS have the experience to make up the ground necessary to get us to a bowl game this year, I have said all along I believe 2016 they will go bowling, I just don't think it will be this year.
Not what I asked. I think I asked if you were to take over a team, which Dline would you rather have. If you were Leach, what D line if he could choose, which one do you think he would pick?
Yes, missing in 2012 hurt- but ideally, then- you've got a bunch of RSSophs. Not getting ANYONE in 2011 hurt even more- those should have been your upperclassmen- instead you had... Tracy Clark- victim of a few of the "running free" plays you describe.
You go from 6-6 to 3-9 because the secondary went from Seniors to Freshmen.
We had zero DBs from the 2011 class, and the only young DB that had experience got dismissed.
You go from 6-6 to 3-9 because the kicker we had graduated and the kicker we thought we had was poached by UW
That and the way the coaches weren't able to handle those setbacks. Thus fired.
The players are better but they are younger.
So how is that fixed? Take a kicker on scholarship Abramo
Bring in JC corners and a strong secondary recruiter. Grinch
The expectation is 3-4 wins during roster transitions while those issues are addressed.
You know where wulff screwed up. Giving 90% of the spring and summer snaps to Rogers and 10% to Lopina who BOTH went down with an injury to Portland State because of his terrible O-line coaching.
That's why he "didn't have a QB". He put all his eggs in the Rogers basket and laid his own rotten egg of an offensive line.
THAT is why he started out poorly, and he never fixed the problem because he never knew where it was and he kept lying to himself and others instead of owning the responsibility.
2008 we allowed 42 sacks
2009 we allowed 53 sacks
2010 we allowed 51 sacks
2011 we allowed 38 sacks
6 Qbs in 4 years injured. Only 5 OL taken the first 2 years.
Joe Salavea. Was Joe S somehow connected to the staff that was hired? But not sure that was the question. I thought the question was about the players then we can deal with who should coach them.
I get that. But let's go to one position, maybe I missed your response and if I did I apologize. Then I will address the kicker question, the secondary stuff, and the other things you mentioned. If you were Joe S and you were asked to pick a defensive line, would you go with 2008 or 2012?
Most of those guys you mentioned Leach "inheriting"... had zero or very limited experience, as opposed to a very veteran line Wulff inherited. Mullenix, Broadus, Ahmu, Kooyman, Turpin, all capable players under Doba- that's more experience and play that Wulff inherited than Long, Laurenzi and three guys with no experience that Leach got. But Leach chose Gauta, and Wulff couldn't find a Gauta.
In 2012 we brought in a JC Gauta who we brought in because we wanted a true nose tackle.and we didn't have one. So why didn't wulff bring in 1/3 of his starting front?
There was nothing wrong with the 2008 DL.
Mattingly although Frying pan crazy) was really good.
Matt E. was good.
A’I Ahmu was fine.
etc. were fine. They just were undisciplined outside the game, and Wulff didn't lay down the law when he came in.
He didn't waste type ditching Laurenzi or Mizell or anybody else who was an issue if they didn't want to follow the rules.
Wulff came in soft. They did what they wanted and he kept them around. He didn't run the team. The team ran the team. And they didn't care what he said.
See Tron... I can play that game as well. Why didn't Leach bring in JC help for the CB position.
But back to your point, so Matt E had more snaps than Pole? Turpin more than Long or Laurenzi? Just so I have this straight, after watching them play, knowing which players clearly had more upside you would still pick Matt E who played very little in his previous four years, Ahmu always hurt, Kooyman and Broadus over Long, Pole, cooper, Laurenzi and Paulo?
Well it is funny because a common bitch about Wullf was that he didn't warm up to the players, he didn't care about the old guard, he played favorites, and he kicked off players, and you are saying he was too easy?
In terms of not getting a DT in 2008, his first class he did get three and redshirted them. One out of three worked out. That happens when you go after JC players, or any platers for that matter. I mean look at Nia Sale and I would think that is gives us a good indication how tough things are are in JC recruiting.
Last edited:
You are way overselling what is being said here. We will get to all of this....No one other than you has called him our hero BTW
I've said on here that in 2013 they should have. but that's on Breske for not making that a priority fix and knowing his own depth for his unit until it was too late. because if he had he might have kept his job.
Laurenzi never took a snap for Leach's/ Salavae
In 2008 WSU was #87 in tackles for loss
In 2011 WSU was #94 in tackles for loss
In 2008 WSU was #91 in sacks
in 2011 WSU was #95 in sacks
So in both tackles for loss and sacks the DL was worse under Wulff. Bravo.
Nice deflection. You can pretend that the 11th bowl appearance in school history doesn't matter all you want, but it still happened.
BTW, your boy Price lost a couple of big bowl games too, and went 3-11 against UW.
I always enjoy the conversations about how awful Wulff left the program. I also love the objective facts that people use. There are some undeniable facts about Wulff’s tenure, such as 9-40. However, to say that Wulff left a program that was like starting over is disingenuous. Comparing numbers of who was left to Wulff and Leach you would see some similarities. However, when you analyze who was left and who had to be replaced you would notice some differences.
Based on the depth chart from the Apple Cup in Doba’s last year and Wulff’s last year here is the breakdown for the defense. The returning defensive lineman who started a game on the two deep roster for 2008 were Kooyman (2 starts), Ahmu (8), Mullenix (10) and Graise (2). Linemen lost were Pitoitua (11), Johnson (5), and Broadus (4). Leach inherited Long (12), Puu-Robinson (1), Pole (3), Laurenzi (12), Williams (6). Rankin (9) was the only lineman lost. Both squads had to replace important lineman in Pitoitua and Rankin. One could argue that replacing Ropati is a much bigger loss as he is still in the league doing the dirty work on the line for the Tennesse Titans. In addition, the 9 starts between Johnson and Broadus left the depth thin and the line small for the 2008 squad.
The 2008 team returned 4 linebackers with starting experience, three of which who started most of the time. Evans (12), Trent (12), Mattingly (6), and Dunn (11) were the returners and the no linebackers were needed to be replaced. The 2012 team returned four players with starting experience but not as much as the 2008 squad. Sua (4), Kaufusi (6), Mizell (9), and Coen (1) returned. Hoffman-Ellis (12) and Ledgerwood (2) needed to be replaced. The 2012 squad had much bigger shoes to fill with the loss of Hoffman-Ellis. He had some time in an NFL camp and played in the UFL.
The defensive backfield of each group returned many players with starting experience. The 2008 squad returned Nwachukwu (12), Jackson (9), Hicks (3), and Giles (2). The 2012 squad returned Washington (6), Bucannon (11), Toomer (12), Locker (3), Horton (5), and Simmons (7). The 2012 squad lost no starters from the previous season. The 2008 squad lost Abdullah (12).
As we are saw this past year, the loss of Ngauta anchoring the line and Bucannon providing leadership in the secondary can make a huge difference in defensive production. The 2008 squads lost similar players in current NFLers Pituitoa on the line and Abdullah in the secondary. The 2012 defense was in better shape to compete than the 2008 team.
On offense the both teams returned many players that started on the offensive line. The 2008 team returned Lesuma (12), Roxas (1), Alfred (11), Rowlands (12), and Hannam (12). The main loss was Byrd (12). The 2012 squad returned Rodgers (1), Fullington (12), Goetz (9), and Spitz (6). They lost Jacobson (4), Gonzales (12), Roxas (2), and Guerra (12).
The 2008 team returned 2 recievers and tight ends that started Gibson (11) and Anderson (1). The 2008 team lost Dillon (12), Collins (12), and Bumpus (12). The 2012 team returned Wilson (11), Ratliff (4), Simone (1), Lintz (4), and Dunn (1). The 2012 team had to replace Barton (8) and Karstetter (12). Each team returned a future NFL receiver and another receiver. The tight ends that the 2012 group had returning are a wash as Leach doesn’t use them.
The offensive backfield is where the biggest difference lies in returning experience. The 2008 squad had Ivory (2) and Tardy (8) returning while losing Brink (12) and McCall (1). The 2012 group returned Tuel (2), Halliday (1), Galvin (7), Winston (7), Byers (1) while losing Lobbestael (8). Ivory was probably the most talented returner while the lack of a quarterback was the biggest hole of the 2008 squad. The 2012 group had a qb that would collect a small NFL paycheck and a future serviceable qb for Leach.
Overall the returning starting talent returning for Leach’s first year was not as bad as is said. It was not a great group of returners but could be argued to be better than the group Wulff was left with. The issue for Wulff is that he was left a dismal group with no money for assistants and no recruiting name to get into houses. It was a hole he couldn’t get out of and perhaps never would. Leach was left with arguable better or at least more experienced players. Couple that with the fact that he has some money to give to quality assistants and has a name to get to recruits his hole to climb out of isn’t as deep. He will get us to a consistent 6 win or so record with an occasional better year.
Looking at what each coach was left, with the dumpster fire was started before Wulff arrived. He didn’t even pour gas on the fire. He just didn’t have anything to fight it with. Fortunately, Leach was hired with a commitment from the school to give him something to fight it with.
I am including a link to highlights of the Cal-WSU game from Wulff's first season. If you watch it look at how the WSU d-line gets blown up on the first play. Perhaps they shouldn't have blitzed but I am not sure that 9 months of Wulff's training and coaching could have undone that much strength the players had under Doba to get blown up at the point of attack like they did. Ahmu hardly played that game and the Cougs were starting Adam Hineline, who is probably a nice guy but probably not a P10
lineman.
Based on the depth chart from the Apple Cup in Doba’s last year and Wulff’s last year here is the breakdown for the defense. The returning defensive lineman who started a game on the two deep roster for 2008 were Kooyman (2 starts), Ahmu (8), Mullenix (10) and Graise (2). Linemen lost were Pitoitua (11), Johnson (5), and Broadus (4). Leach inherited Long (12), Puu-Robinson (1), Pole (3), Laurenzi (12), Williams (6). Rankin (9) was the only lineman lost. Both squads had to replace important lineman in Pitoitua and Rankin. One could argue that replacing Ropati is a much bigger loss as he is still in the league doing the dirty work on the line for the Tennesse Titans. In addition, the 9 starts between Johnson and Broadus left the depth thin and the line small for the 2008 squad.
The 2008 team returned 4 linebackers with starting experience, three of which who started most of the time. Evans (12), Trent (12), Mattingly (6), and Dunn (11) were the returners and the no linebackers were needed to be replaced. The 2012 team returned four players with starting experience but not as much as the 2008 squad. Sua (4), Kaufusi (6), Mizell (9), and Coen (1) returned. Hoffman-Ellis (12) and Ledgerwood (2) needed to be replaced. The 2012 squad had much bigger shoes to fill with the loss of Hoffman-Ellis. He had some time in an NFL camp and played in the UFL.
The defensive backfield of each group returned many players with starting experience. The 2008 squad returned Nwachukwu (12), Jackson (9), Hicks (3), and Giles (2). The 2012 squad returned Washington (6), Bucannon (11), Toomer (12), Locker (3), Horton (5), and Simmons (7). The 2012 squad lost no starters from the previous season. The 2008 squad lost Abdullah (12).
As we are saw this past year, the loss of Ngauta anchoring the line and Bucannon providing leadership in the secondary can make a huge difference in defensive production. The 2008 squads lost similar players in current NFLers Pituitoa on the line and Abdullah in the secondary. The 2012 defense was in better shape to compete than the 2008 team.
On offense the both teams returned many players that started on the offensive line. The 2008 team returned Lesuma (12), Roxas (1), Alfred (11), Rowlands (12), and Hannam (12). The main loss was Byrd (12). The 2012 squad returned Rodgers (1), Fullington (12), Goetz (9), and Spitz (6). They lost Jacobson (4), Gonzales (12), Roxas (2), and Guerra (12).
The 2008 team returned 2 recievers and tight ends that started Gibson (11) and Anderson (1). The 2008 team lost Dillon (12), Collins (12), and Bumpus (12). The 2012 team returned Wilson (11), Ratliff (4), Simone (1), Lintz (4), and Dunn (1). The 2012 team had to replace Barton (8) and Karstetter (12). Each team returned a future NFL receiver and another receiver. The tight ends that the 2012 group had returning are a wash as Leach doesn’t use them.
The offensive backfield is where the biggest difference lies in returning experience. The 2008 squad had Ivory (2) and Tardy (8) returning while losing Brink (12) and McCall (1). The 2012 group returned Tuel (2), Halliday (1), Galvin (7), Winston (7), Byers (1) while losing Lobbestael (8). Ivory was probably the most talented returner while the lack of a quarterback was the biggest hole of the 2008 squad. The 2012 group had a qb that would collect a small NFL paycheck and a future serviceable qb for Leach.
Overall the returning starting talent returning for Leach’s first year was not as bad as is said. It was not a great group of returners but could be argued to be better than the group Wulff was left with. The issue for Wulff is that he was left a dismal group with no money for assistants and no recruiting name to get into houses. It was a hole he couldn’t get out of and perhaps never would. Leach was left with arguable better or at least more experienced players. Couple that with the fact that he has some money to give to quality assistants and has a name to get to recruits his hole to climb out of isn’t as deep. He will get us to a consistent 6 win or so record with an occasional better year.
Looking at what each coach was left, with the dumpster fire was started before Wulff arrived. He didn’t even pour gas on the fire. He just didn’t have anything to fight it with. Fortunately, Leach was hired with a commitment from the school to give him something to fight it with.
I am including a link to highlights of the Cal-WSU game from Wulff's first season. If you watch it look at how the WSU d-line gets blown up on the first play. Perhaps they shouldn't have blitzed but I am not sure that 9 months of Wulff's training and coaching could have undone that much strength the players had under Doba to get blown up at the point of attack like they did. Ahmu hardly played that game and the Cougs were starting Adam Hineline, who is probably a nice guy but probably not a P10
lineman.
Since this fresh topic has only been four years in the making, I'm not going to go position by position with nice little discussions on each. That happened three and half years ago. Wulff left QB better. WR was a push, or maybe slightly better depending on your point of view. Everything else was worse.
What you and others ignore, discount, etc. is that Wulff made things worse the minute he tookover on December 12, 2007. The strength and conditioning program went into the toilet.
Not everything else was worse. Perhaps the SC program was worse, that is conjecture, but would all the gains made under Doba in SC been undone in 9 months? Or could it be that they guys that he was left with weren't strong to begin with?
I agree, whether it was worse or better, is conjecture. I have heard quite a bit that it was worse but I'm not in a position to agree or disagree. I've seen no evidence other than the on field performance and there are quite a few other factors that could have contributed to our guys being thrown around like rag dolls.
But on your above comment… have you ever lifted weights? If you take 9 months off, you drop off quite a bit. So yes, 9 months can make quite a difference.
None of the following players played a single snap in 2012 and were dismissed because many didn't meet the character/team rules qualifications held by the new coach.
Offensively only 6 scholarship lineman were available to start the 2012 season. And no matter what offense you have if you are not healthy on the O-line.
While everyone talks about Tuel/Halliday
To quote Harbaugh (the super bowl ring/still coaching in the nfl harbaugh)
"The quarterback is obviously critically important but if you don't have an offensive line, you can forget about it"
We've seen many teams have less talented QBs than Tuel and Halliday do well, but without an offensive line..they don't mean much.
Buchanon and Long were excellent players, but long was only for 1 year.
The biggest issue we ran into was the lack of DB depth after Buchanon / Horton / Carpenter / Washington left.
That was a lot to lose and only Tailulu / Brown remained. Brown was dismissed and we were left with an extremely green and young secondary. Oh yeah and Tracy Clark.
The fact that you think any of those guys were good(except Ahmu) simply blows my mind. Mattingly was good as a LB..not as a DE.
Matt E is the worst DT I have ever seen play at WSU.
I feel like I am having the Mark Fields discussion all over again.
If you're not working out, while other Pac-12 teams are, you're in trouble. The 2-11 type of trouble.
