Never understood the Cam Ward hate. There are so many douchey athletes to target, why pile on CW? Kid kept his mouth shut, showed up, and played an exciting brand of ball. Definitely not without flaws, but wait until you see what we have under center this season.
Mateer Fall Camp ~ 7/31
- Thread starter M-I-Coug
- Start date
No idea how anyone could claim WSU has two good starting-level QBs based on the information we have and what we've seen. I'm hopeful we get at least one guy playing at a starter level, and Arbuckle having his feet under him for another year should help, but right now, there's little good reason to think anyone on the roster is going to be good or any better than CW. For clarity, I'm not saying both Mateer and Eckhaus suck or won't get there. Just that it's way too early to make any definitive assessments. Early word on Mateer doesn't seem great.
Remember how Gary Rogers was going to be a great QB and how he got screwed and then went to Montana....where he was benched? Lots of QB's look the part but they just don't have "IT". Ward has always been that guy to me. He shows flashes....but too many lows. And blaming it on the OL when it's convenient and suggesting that the good games are because Ward is so great just feels a bit inconsistent.
I don’t think it’s that uncommon from what any other QB goes through it’s the nature of the position. I could see a clear improvement in Ward the spring between his S and J years and it showed on the field the first few weeks. He was awesome. Then UCLA broke him. He went back to old habits it was pretty clear. Scrambling around and fumbling when it wasn’t necessary. I felt bad for him, some of it certainly wasn’t his fault.
There were definitely “people” on here who consider themselves football savants rooting against him because they had written him off and wanted to be “right”. I don’t get that mentality at all, but I’m also not a never has been Junior high coach that thinks I should be a head coach in FBS.
You're thinking of Josh Swogger. Gesser swore that Swogger would set records at WSU, but by the middle of the 2004 season, Brink was the full-time starter. Swogger stayed in 2005, but transferred to Montana for his senior season. He was serviceable there, and the Griz made the playoff semifinal. He got tryouts with the Chiefs, Bills, and Falcons, played in the arena league for a year and then went to sell insurance.
Gary Rogers backed up Brink and went into his senior year (2008) as the starter. Kevin Lopina took the job a couple games into the season, and then both of them got broken against PSU. Lopina came back to play in the white flag game against USC. Rogers wasn't cleared until the season was over, and never played again.
I don't hate Cam Ward. I just hated the way that he disappeared in games, spun the wrong way and managed to turn an 8 yard sack into a 18 yard sack, and was generally way more mediocre than his predecessors. But hey, he does look good walking through an airport. I paid a lot of money to watch us lose to a genuinely terrible Stanford team last year. Those f#ckers gave up 46 points per game in the last five games of the season that bracketed ours. We scored SEVEN points. Siete. Sept. Sieben. SEVEN.
It was a bad game for the offense overall but Ward...being the QB....gets to take the credit for that shitshow. I don't hate him, but I'm happy that he's not here. Nothing more annoying than hearing how great some dude is to learn that he can't tie his own f#cking shoes half the time.
Let's face it. Short of some sort of divine miracle, Ward is not going to be a successful NFL quarterback. I began to think. Where is Max Borghi today?
Note: Nothing wrong with not going to the NFL. Ryan Leaf was a great college quarterback.
What will Ward have in common with Borghi?
Note: Nothing wrong with not going to the NFL. Ryan Leaf was a great college quarterback.
What will Ward have in common with Borghi?
Max Borghi
Massimiliano Christopher Borghi (born April 23, 1999) is a former American football running back. He played college football at Washington State.Early years
Borghi attended Pomona High School in Arvada, Colorado.[1] As a 5th year senior, he had 1,690 rushing yards with 27 touchdowns and helped lead his school to their first state title since 1988.[2] During his high school career, he rushed for 3,512 yards and 50 touchdowns.[3] He committed to Washington State University to play college football.[4][5]College career
As a true freshman at Washington State in 2018, Borghi played in all 13 games and made two starts. He had 72 carries for 366 yards and 53 receptions for 374 yards with 12 total touchdowns.[6][7] As a sophomore in 2019 he started all 13 games, rushing for 817 yards on 127 carries with 11 touchdowns and a team leading 86 receptions for 597 yards and five touchdowns.[8]College statistics
Borghi's college statistics are as follows:[9]| Season | Rushing | Receiving | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Att | Yards | Avg | TD | Rec | Yards | Avg | TD | |
| Career | 369 | 2,158 | 5.8 | 32 | 156 | 1,134 | 7.3 | 9 |
| NCAA Collegiate Career statistics | ||||||||
| Washington State Cougars | ||||||||
| 2018 | 72 | 366 | 5.1 | 8 | 53 | 374 | 7.1 | 4 |
| 2019 | 127 | 817 | 6.4 | 11 | 86 | 597 | 6.9 | 5 |
| 2020 | 10 | 95 | 9.5 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 0 |
| 2021 | 160 | 880 | 5.5 | 12 | 16 | 156 | 9.8 | 0 |
Professional career
Pre-draft measurables| Height | Weight | Arm length | Hand span | 40-yard dash | 10-yard split | 20-yard split | 20-yard shuttle | Three-cone drill | Vertical jump | Broad jump | Bench press |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 5 ft 93⁄8 in (1.76 m) | 210 lb (95 kg) | 295⁄8 in (0.75 m) | 91⁄8 in (0.23 m) | 4.48 s | 1.53 s | 2.63 s | 4.27 s | 7.15 s | 33.5 in (0.85 m) | 10 ft 3 in (3.12 m) | 20 reps |
| All values from NFL Combine/Pro Day[10][11] |
Indianapolis Colts
Borghi signed with the Indianapolis Colts as an undrafted free agent on May 13, 2022.[12] He was waived on May 18.[13]Denver Broncos
On August 3, 2022, Borghi signed with the Denver Broncos.[14] He was released on August 16, 2022.[15]Pittsburgh Steelers
On August 18, 2022, Borghi signed with the Pittsburgh Steelers.[16] He was waived on August 30.[17]Houston Roughnecks
On November 17, 2022, Borghi was drafted by the Houston Roughnecks of the XFL.[18] Borghi played in eight games, rushing for 310 yards on 78 attempts, with six touchdowns.[19] He was waived on December 15, 2023.[20]St. Louis Battlehawks
The St. Louis Battlehawks claimed Borghi off waivers on December 15, 2023.[20]Borghi decided not to play football during the 2024 UFL season on January 27, 2024,[21] and was subsequently waived by the Battlehawks on February 8.[22]Career statistics
I haven’t watched Borghi recently but I maintain he was never the same after that injury. Prime WSU Borghi is an NFL back no question.
I’m not going to say never with Ward but entertaining going to the nfl after last season was comical. He’s got way too much fundamental stuff to clean up. Very talented guy, but the nfl is about getting the ball out quick and playing from the pocket, neither of which he’s proven he can do consistently. NFL doesn’t like QBs that turn the ball over either and with his fumbles he was a turnover machine. I wouldn’t give him much of a chance to succeed in the nfl right now.
I understand that. I was at the Stanford game myself. I just don't think people on here understand how scary our QB situation is this season.
A true running threat QB would do wonders opening up holes in the secondary and slowing down the pass rush though.
You are correct.....Swogger was the Montana transfer. Rogers was the new "anointed one" for the Brink haters after Swogger left. So much PTSD.
What stinks is that Mateer has looked "okay" in games but hasn't been asked to throw much. It might not be bad...but we have no way to know until he steps onto the field.
They aren't the ones taking snaps, throwing picks and fumbling....so they get less blame than Ward. But they aren't blameless either. If we continue to suck on offense, that does become more of a them thing.
I'll grant that our OL sucked. But Ward consistently had issues that really weren't related to the OL. There were a lot of poor decisions. Worse, there were times where he didn't seem to make a decision.
He's far too up and down for the NFL. He didn't show much improvement from start to finish in 2022. Early in the 2023 season, he looked pretty solid. He didn't respond to OSU's defensive changes in the second half of that game, but we managed to hang on for the win. After that, he regressed badly and looked pretty terrible for the next 8-9 weeks.
During that whole time, I didn't look at the performance on the field and see a good QB who was being held back by his team. I saw a physically talented but mentally stunted QB who was part of the problem.
Mateer has been regularly throwing 3 INTs / practice this Fall. He's obviously a great running, play extending QB, but we can't have him tossing multiple picks and missing the easy throws.
I think we've been spoiled in having so many great college quarterbacks, but I know I wanted Ward to come in and dominate. From the get go... I saw passes that looked "out of sync". He'd do some great things, but it never seemed to erase the dumb and bad things.
Maybe that's where we should really measure him.
He wasn't Gordon, Minshew, Falk, Halliday, Kegel, Gesser, Leaf, Bledsoe, Rosenbach...
I don't know if he's really better than Jeff Tuel. It's probably Brink over Ward.
I think if he has more success this year it will probably be more about who he's with vs. what he is.
Maybe that's where we should really measure him.
He wasn't Gordon, Minshew, Falk, Halliday, Kegel, Gesser, Leaf, Bledsoe, Rosenbach...
I don't know if he's really better than Jeff Tuel. It's probably Brink over Ward.
I think if he has more success this year it will probably be more about who he's with vs. what he is.
Brink should be in your top list. Offense was never the problem in the Brink years. We’d have gone bowling every season he was QB if we had a marginally competent D.
Physically, Ward is far more talented than either Brink or Tuel. But they both had him beat in the mental part of the game, and it’s not close.
I’ll push back slightly here. Just on the details, but the impact was the same.
Our problem in those years, especially in the Harrison years 2004-05, was not that the defense was incompetent. They actually had some talent, and could play pretty well….for three quarters. Our conditioning was so piss-poor in those days that the D in particular couldn’t play a full game. 2005 was the year of monumental 4th quarter collapses, when the D couldn’t stop anyone and the O couldn’t get a first down.
Don't blame him.
And I think it's fair to say UCLA broke the OL, and cleared the smoke and shattered the mirrors that were being used to hide their inadequacies.
The only year where Brink was the problem was 2004. He played better than Swogger but his pick six cost us the Colorado game and other pick sixes put another game or two out of reach that year. As mentioned above, conditioning absolutely wrecked us in 2005.
That 2006 team was sneaky good until injuries derailed the end of that season. Brink's Frail Mary will live in infamy but we just about knocked off eventual #4 USC. To be fair to Ward, our offense's inability to score in the red zone against Cal in 2006 was embarrassing for Brink. I was at that game and the crowd was chanting for Rogers. The sad thing is that when they put Rogers in, he was injured within a few plays and Brink was put back in. To be fair to Brink though....Cal was #10 when we lost to them and finished #14 that year....so maybe not the same thing.
Pretty sure that was the ROb Oviatt era as strength coach. Most of Doba's assistants have taken heat for failing to step up in his absence, but I think Oviatt is the poster child for this. Not only did he not step up, he didn't even appear to do his basic job. It was pretty apparent on the field that our conditioning was poor, and strength deteriorated over his tenure.
John Mateer impresses at practice as WSU’s QB competition heats up
Greg WoodsAug. 12, 2024 at 5:47 pmBy
The Spokesman-Review
PULLMAN — Off John Mateer’s hands, the throw looked like a gem. The ball came soaring in a tight spiral from the south end of Rogers Practice Field to the north end, a toss so pretty that even before Washington State wide receiver Kyle Williams sprinted under it and caught it in stride for a touchdown, it always looked destined for a breathtaking ending.
Mateer’s pass was so special, so precise, that not even the Cougars in coverage on the play could complain too much. One of them, safety Reece Sylvester, swore quietly to himself before heading back for the next play.
“John’s got a huge arm,” WSU coach Jake Dickert said.
In the third week of WSU fall camp, which continued with Day 10 on Monday, it was perhaps the best throw Mateer made all camp. It might have been the best day overall for Mateer, who has registered two promising practices in a row, following his turnover-free outing in Saturday’s scrimmage with a sterling day of camp on Monday.
Dickert and players have been effusive in their praise for both Mateer and FCS Bryant transfer Zevi Eckhaus, the other quarterback vying for the starting gig this fall, knowing either guy could win the job. But if either quarterback has an advantage based on recent practices, it might be Mateer, who has completed several sharp passes downfield and scrambled from the pocket to escape pressure.
In another highlight from Monday’s practice, which concluded at Gesa Field with simulated crowd noise, Mateer dropped back and unleashed a line drive over the middle to receiver Josh Meredith, a completion of some 30 yards that also hit Meredith in stride. Mateer also held place kicks in the absence of punter Nick Haberer, who missed Monday’s practice with back soreness, Dickert said.
Plus, Mateer has now gone two straight practices without throwing an interception in team periods, a crucial piece of criteria that Dickert and offensive coordinator Ben Arbuckle have established. They know they can’t endure the same mistakes that surfaced last year, when former QB Cam Ward tied for second nationally with 11 turnovers.
Eckhaus hasn’t exactly struggled on that front. He has thrown two picks in these last two practices, an improvement on the previous few practices, when both quarterbacks threw several of them. But both of Eckhaus’ interceptions have left something to be desired.
Both throws looked strikingly similar. In Saturday’s scrimmage, Eckhaus drifted back in the pocket and unfurled a wobbler, a throw that fell several yards short of his target. WSU cornerback Stephen Hall intercepted it in the open field. Eckhaus delivered something similar on Monday, tossing a deep, wayward pass that also fell short, sailing into the waiting hands of safety Tyson Durant.
The trend is registering with Dickert, who said Saturday’s second and final scrimmage will be the final evaluation period for the quarterbacks. Dickert will name the starter on Sunday. The team will release the news publicly on Monday.
“John did a good job commanding it. Didn’t have a takeaway,” Dickert said, referring to Saturday’s first scrimmage. “I thought he did a good job with his feet when necessary — obviously, in a non-live (non-tackling) situation, delivered the ball well with accuracy. I thought Zevi did a good job battling back, just like I thought. We just gotta get him out of — every practice he has one of those throws he regrets, and then he kinda snaps back out of it.”
On Saturday, Dickert did take care to commend Eckhaus for responding well to his interception, noting the way he rallied his teammates on the sideline and tried to keep everyone up. But it’s clear coaches are noticing Eckhaus’ tendency for turnovers, in particular the fact that both picks came on deep passes.
Still, Dickert and Arbuckle are looking for other qualities. It’s important to them to take the temperature of the quarterbacks’ teammates: Which guy is the more compelling leader? Which one prompts teammates to gravitate toward them naturally?
“Both those guys are real cool, calm and collected. The big thing is they have different leadership styles,” said offensive lineman Brock Dieu, a regular right guard who has been rotating occasionally to center. “Zevi’s a little more of a rah rah guy. John’s pretty cool, calm and collected — ‘Hey, let’s get this done.’ Both have a great way of playing. Both have a different style. As a group of five guys, we just mesh well with both.”
“Them being a different type of quarterback helps me see different looks and everything,” Durant added. “Zevi is more touch pass, a little more savvy with stuff. And then John’s speed, gotta do it with the fast quarterback. Gotta be able to match the QB foot, all the things coach (Jordan) Malone has been teaching me. Those are two different quarterbacks that I can learn two different types of ways from. So I really appreciate that.”
It leaves the quarterbacks with five practices to leave their best impressions on coaches, Mateer the two-year backup under Ward the previous two years, Eckhaus the record-setter in three years in Rhode Island.
“It isn’t gonna be about the stats, guys,” Dickert said after Monday’s practice. “It’s gonna be about the guy that gives us the best chance of winning. Sometimes you can’t rationalize that with stats. You can’t rationalize that with exact things or one moment or this period. There’s a feeling, there’s a gut, there’s a body of work over the last eight months
“It’s gonna be hard. They’re both competitors. But at the end of the day, when that (decision) comes, you’ve got 24 hours and you gotta snap back, and you gotta play your role, because you never know when your number’s gonna be called.”
Greg Woods Washington State beat writer for The Spokesman-Review
Oviatt was there for the three straight 10 win seasons if you are gonna rail on him for failures in 2006 and beyond, you have to give him credit for the most historic run in the programs history.
Strength and conditioning were the least of the problems during that time.
Encouraging. Third year in the system and plenty of talent, Mateer should be “getting it”. Usually takes time for offenses to gel in camp, probably even more so now with the portal and guys moving around programs so much.
be careful... there's some RO lovers on this board, and one in particular will FIGHT you if you say another cross word about him!
Are you trembling yet?
Least?
Doba having to go to a 5 or 6 man front because there were literally no LBs due to injury (which has been surmised to be due to conditioning/ strength) is a "least" problem? Seems pretty high up there to me.
Perhaps. Just throwing out there that Oviatt held that position during a pretty historically successful stretch for the program. Maybe he packed it in with everyone else when Doba was taking care of his wife? Don’t know for sure, but worth noting. It’s not like Oviatt came in and things went to shit right away. Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I'm on the record as being nervous about Mateer under center, but I need to walk that back a bit. It's difficult to fully evaluate the ability of a run/pass QB like Mateer during Spring and Fall camp. In those practices and scrimmages, the plays are designed to work on timing with traditional running and passing plays. If we were watching Lamar Jackson practice, he would likely look pedestrian compared with other pocket passers. Game situations are more instinctual, and if Arbuckle is any good as an OC, he'll be able to utilize Mateer's wheels to open up the passing game.
Right now Mateer has to, should be considered to just barely be the favorite, his job to lose to Zevi.
Mateer has a wonderful arm, and can throw accurately downfield, deep., and has great mobility.
Mateer"s weakness is that he doesn't have touch, and throws lasers instead, UNLESS he has sufficient practice, and time to practice, etc.
Hall and Jamorri Colson, are so good, that they were going to get their picks early fall camp. That's part of the reason for the picks.
The question was, is: Can, will Mateer figure out how to deal with Hall, Colson, and either not throw picks, or throw less picks, and throw the deeper balls with more touch, accuracy, etc?
So far John has answered that question with a so far resounding YES, while Zevi is still throwing 1,2,3 INT's every practice on throws, where he continues to struggle throwing downfield.
In Arbuckle's offense, it's imperative to 1. Not throw INT's. 2. to stretch the field, use the whole field by throwing sideline to sideline, throwing downfield, hitting WR's in stride, etc, instead of only being able to throw 3 to 5 to 7 yard passes, and hoping for YAC, and instead of throwing pics, and instead of not hitting WR's in stride.
It appears John has worked the kinks out, and can, will throw at least semi accurately, with semi touch, downfield, using whole field, hitting WR in stride, not throwing interceptions, less interceptions, starting to be able to deal with how awesome WSU's secondary is, etc.
If that trend continues, and it looks like it probably will, John should be the starter.
It's critical in Arbuckle's offense, that the defense has to account for the whole field being used, a mobile QB that will run, RB, runs, WR runs, etc, instead of Zevi's 3 to 5 to 7 yard passes and YAC, that only make it so that defenses can play a match up short zone, and blitz like crazy, because they wouldn't have to worry about Zevi using the whole field and beating them downfield.
Zevi's 3 TO 5 TO 7 TO 9 YARD DINK AND DUNK is EXTREMELY Bad. Perhaps if spent 4,5 years building the offense around that, to where Zevi could work that to perfection, then it might be ok.
But with only 1 year, Arbuckle's offense is not designed for 3 to 5 to 7 to 9 yard DINK AND DUNK, and Zevi wouldn't be able to execute that to perfection in a year, and defenses would have a field day playing a short match up zone blitz, against Zevi, WSU, etc.
So because of that assuming John continues to do well and doesn't regress, John should be the starter. Hopefully Dickert, Arbuckle realize that.
You may still be proven right. Practice is practice who the hell knows. We will find out when the bright lights come on. I like his confidence and he certainly seemed to be a gamer when he came in for short stints. I do like QBs that aren’t afraid to take off and run, it essentially adds another player on the field the defense has to account for and can open up all sorts of throwing lanes when a defense has to worry about it. It’s why Tim Tebow, who could barely throw a spiral, could light up defenses in college.
