More Baseball - why not?

[Loyal Coug]

So for gonzaga tonight we are starting a guy who has the 9th most innings pitched out of the 15 guys who have thrown. zags not much different - their 9th guy too. Clearly no thought to starting our pitcher from last Friday who threw 4.1 innings.

Let's think about this. gonzaga has won 12 of the last 15 (per another poster). They have 25 Washington guys on their roster (plus a CDA guy). We have 22+2. Does it make any sense that maybe WSU should make a little extra effort to try to beat a team that we obviously compete with for in-state players? At little, if any risk to our weekend chances in the Pac-12? We could start White tonight and start him again on Saturday or Sunday.

Speaking of competing, our roster is a little eye-opening. Out of Lees' 2016 (for 2017), allegedly 28th-ranked first recruiting class, we have 3 guys left. We have 5 apparent holdovers from Marbut's last season, including 3 RS Juniors (who redshirts in baseball?), unless some of these guys were JC transfers. Of the 2017 recruiting class, 5 of the 12 guys are still here. Our allegedly 32nd-ranked 2018 class (freshman this spring) includes 17 freshmen (!). Half of our team is freshmen! And were they ranked 32 just because of the numbers? That's how it works in FB. It's total points - the more signees, the more points.

Anyway, here we are in Year 4 with this vaunted recruiter and we are pretty much starting over. FWIW.

 

[425cougfan]

So for gonzaga tonight we are starting a guy who has the 9th most innings pitched out of the 15 guys who have thrown. zags not much different - their 9th guy too. Clearly no thought to starting our pitcher from last Friday who threw 4.1 innings.

Let's think about this. gonzaga has won 12 of the last 15 (per another poster). They have 25 Washington guys on their roster (plus a CDA guy). We have 22+2. Does it make any sense that maybe WSU should make a little extra effort to try to beat a team that we obviously compete with for in-state players? At little, if any risk to our weekend chances in the Pac-12? We could start White tonight and start him again on Saturday or Sunday.

Speaking of competing, our roster is a little eye-opening. Out of Lees' 2016 (for 2017), allegedly 528th-ranked first recruiting class, we have 3 guys left. We have 5 apparent holdovers from Marbut's last season, including 3 RS Juniors (who redshirts in baseball?), unless some of these guys were JC transfers. Of the 2017 recruiting class, 5 of the 12 guys are still here. Our allegedly 32nd-ranked 2018 class (freshman this spring) includes 17 freshmen (!). Half of our team is freshmen! And were they ranked 32 just because of the numbers? That's how it works in FB. It's total points - the more signees, the more points.

Anyway, here we are in Year 4 with this vaunted recruiter and we are pretty much starting over. FWIW.

Great point on the high ranking being based largely on numbers. It's like that in all sports. To the extent you think it's worth looking at ratings/stars from a rankings perspective, it's more meaningful to look at it on a per-recruit basis than to just use the baseline rankings.

I think looking at which other schools offered the recruits is more meaningful, anyway, although it has its own flaws. Offers are self-reported, and you'll often (perhaps always) see an offer maintained on a recruit's page even if it was given early on and no longer is "committable." On the other side of the spectrum, some commits, including those WSU tends to get, aren't getting interviewed every week or otherwise updating their offer lists with the recruiting services constantly, so sometimes their offers are underreported or not indicative of the level of interest other programs have. I still would look at other offers before a rating or ranking, though.

 

[Coug95man2]

So for gonzaga tonight we are starting a guy who has the 9th most innings pitched out of the 15 guys who have thrown. zags not much different - their 9th guy too. Clearly no thought to starting our pitcher from last Friday who threw 4.1 innings.

Let's think about this. gonzaga has won 12 of the last 15 (per another poster). They have 25 Washington guys on their roster (plus a CDA guy). We have 22+2. Does it make any sense that maybe WSU should make a little extra effort to try to beat a team that we obviously compete with for in-state players? At little, if any risk to our weekend chances in the Pac-12? We could start White tonight and start him again on Saturday or Sunday.

Speaking of competing, our roster is a little eye-opening. Out of Lees' 2016 (for 2017), allegedly 28th-ranked first recruiting class, we have 3 guys left. We have 5 apparent holdovers from Marbut's last season, including 3 RS Juniors (who redshirts in baseball?), unless some of these guys were JC transfers. Of the 2017 recruiting class, 5 of the 12 guys are still here. Our allegedly 32nd-ranked 2018 class (freshman this spring) includes 17 freshmen (!). Half of our team is freshmen! And were they ranked 32 just because of the numbers? That's how it works in FB. It's total points - the more signees, the more points.

Anyway, here we are in Year 4 with this vaunted recruiter and we are pretty much starting over. FWIW.

I think part of what your post is about, is just a WTF on the baseball front... not just recruiting. Because Lees has gotten some studs into the fold. The attrition is not good but there are plenty of young teams that do well.

I know there were a lot of faithful that like Marbut. But for me, I was excited that we got Lees. I thought he was a move up from Marbut, regardless of Marbut's success's/failures. I was game. His Oregon State ties as well as mid-west ties were/are incredible.

At the beginning of the spring season, I was hopeful but for whatever reason, things just aren't getting done. I don't know if it's because of the weather and not being able to get on the field? Or as you point out, it's full of freshman? I don't know I don't dismiss the idea that there are legit reasons. I just don't know what they could be. The only thing left is, "It's just not getting done".

I recently read by a poster here that there was a scuffle in the dugout between coaches. That isn't good. In any way.

I don't know but from a VERY big baseball fan, I've developed serious concerns this spring. The whole "building the program" excuse is no long applicable now. We should be seeing upward movement and we are not. I'm not saying we should be in the World Series by now but we shouldn't have the record we have, either.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I think part of what your post is about, is just a WTF on the baseball front... not just recruiting. Because Lees has gotten some studs into the fold. The attrition is not good but there are plenty of young teams that do well.

I know there were a lot of faithful that like Marbut. But for me, I was excited that we got Lees. I thought he was a move up from Marbut, regardless of Marbut's success's/failures. I was game. His Oregon State ties as well as mid-west ties were/are incredible.

At the beginning of the spring season, I was hopeful but for whatever reason, things just aren't getting done. I don't know if it's because of the weather and not being able to get on the field? Or as you point out, it's full of freshman? I don't know I don't dismiss the idea that there are legit reasons. I just don't know what they could be. The only thing left is, "It's just not getting done".

I recently read by a poster here that there was a scuffle in the dugout between coaches. That isn't good. In any way.

I don't know but from a VERY big baseball fan, I've developed serious concerns this spring. The whole "building the program" excuse is no long applicable now. We should be seeing upward movement and we are not. I'm not saying we should be in the World Series by now but we shouldn't have the record we have, either.

I thought you were disagreeing with me at first, but I guess not.

After another glance (I have already spent way too much time looking at this), my analysis of recruiting classes may need a little work. It's confusing - we announce our 2016 class in Fall, 2015 but they are part of the 2017 roster. But then a latecomer HS senior or JC guy in spring/summer 2015 would be on the 2016 team. Agghh! That highly ranked 2016 class included 8 (!) JC players who I guess are all gone now.

Weird that prior to Lees, I can find no articles/releases on the WSU Baseball site about recruiting. Meaning I have no idea who Marbut recruited that would have been freshmen in 2016, Lees' first year. Weird.

If I get really bored tonight maybe I'll do some more research. Or not.

Anyway, yeah it's definitely "WTF". In hindsight, maybe if Lees had signed 17 freshmen in his first class instead of a bunch of JC guys we wouldn't be in this condition in year 4. Hindsight.

 

[Glad Cougar]

I think part of what your post is about, is just a WTF on the baseball front... not just recruiting. Because Lees has gotten some studs into the fold. The attrition is not good but there are plenty of young teams that do well.

I know there were a lot of faithful that like Marbut. But for me, I was excited that we got Lees. I thought he was a move up from Marbut, regardless of Marbut's success's/failures. I was game. His Oregon State ties as well as mid-west ties were/are incredible.

At the beginning of the spring season, I was hopeful but for whatever reason, things just aren't getting done. I don't know if it's because of the weather and not being able to get on the field? Or as you point out, it's full of freshman? I don't know I don't dismiss the idea that there are legit reasons. I just don't know what they could be. The only thing left is, "It's just not getting done".

I recently read by a poster here that there was a scuffle in the dugout between coaches. That isn't good. In any way.

I don't know but from a VERY big baseball fan, I've developed serious concerns this spring. The whole "building the program" excuse is no long applicable now. We should be seeing upward movement and we are not. I'm not saying we should be in the World Series by now but we shouldn't have the record we have, either.

I'm with you. I was pleased that Lees was hired and thought he would definitely be the best head baseball coach at WSU since Bobo. He still might end up that way, but it sure doesn't look like it right now. Interestingly, had Lees stayed with Pat Casey at OSU and not ventured to OK State and then WSU, he'd probably be the head coach of the defending national champs right now.

Glad Cougar

 

[wazzucougs96]

Let's think about this. gonzaga has won 12 of the last 15 (per another poster). They have 25 Washington guys on their roster (plus a CDA guy). We have 22+2. Does it make any sense that maybe WSU should make a little extra effort to try to beat a team that we obviously compete with for in-state players? At little, if any risk to our weekend chances in the Pac-12?

FWIW the GU guys care very much about beating WSU. Hopefully our guys feel the same way.

 

[CougInSpain]

I have it on good authority that Hunter Dale is actually a better baseball player than he is a football player. He was promised a spot to walk-on by Lees only for Lees to disinvite Dale as a walk-on not long afterwards. I think Lees is going to become a cancer within the program. Book it.

 

[wazzucougs96]

I have it on good authority that Hunter Dale is actually a better baseball player than he is a football player. He was promised a spot to walk-on by Lees only for Lees to disinvite Dale as a walk-on not long afterwards. I think Lees is going to become a cancer within the program. Book it.

What on earth is the point of keeping a guy off the team who wouldn't take up a scholarship??

 

[Loyal Coug]

I have it on good authority that Hunter Dale is actually a better baseball player than he is a football player. He was promised a spot to walk-on by Lees only for Lees to disinvite Dale as a walk-on not long afterwards. I think Lees is going to become a cancer within the program. Book it.

Wow if true. It is April 2nd, so I assume this is not a joke post. And Dale is such a nice guy, team guy.

So I dug up some more interesting info. When Lees was hired, the news reports said his base salary was $250,000. Well, in his first full year (2016) his total salary was $328,000. In 2017, it was $305,000. This per the State of Washington's public employee salary database. 2018 isn't available yet. Well.....what happened to $250,000? Was Moosy-moos doling out some behind the scenes bonuses or what?

And just in case you are curious, in 2014 Marbut made $178,000 (agrees to what the article said when Lees was hired). Although his 2015 salary was $473,000 - so that is at least a 2 year buyout since he was fired in what - May?

 

[SaveFerris]

What on earth is the point of keeping a guy off the team who wouldn't take up a scholarship??

Trying to figure that out as well. It's literally a gift without any downside risk.

 

[kougkurt]

Cougs beat Zags. 12-10.

 

[CougInSpain]

Trying to figure that out as well. It's literally a gift without any downside risk.

The way it was explained to me was that Lees didn't like the idea of a walk-on being better than a scholarship player, therefore being forced to sit said scholarship player in favor of a walk-on.

 

[ElComanche]

It sounds like Chun is keeping a close watch on WSU finances again. What is the teams record as of today? The coaches had to be separated as it was described in the dugout. You cannot make this stuff up.

 

[Observer11]

Wow if true. It is April 2nd, so I assume this is not a joke post. And Dale is such a nice guy, team guy.

So I dug up some more interesting info. When Lees was hired, the news reports said his base salary was $250,000. Well, in his first full year (2016) his total salary was $328,000. In 2017, it was $305,000. This per the State of Washington's public employee salary database. 2018 isn't available yet. Well.....what happened to $250,000? Was Moosy-moos doling out some behind the scenes bonuses or what?

And just in case you are curious, in 2014 Marbut made $178,000 (agrees to what the article said when Lees was hired). Although his 2015 salary was $473,000 - so that is at least a 2 year buyout since he was fired in what - May?

I believe the state salary data base for total compensation includes the base salary plus additional benefits such as insurance and deferred retirement payments made by the employer.

On a $250K base, $75K of other bennies is probably pretty close to accurate.

I say "I believe" because it's been awhile since I've visited that site.

 

[wazzucougs96]

The way it was explained to me was that Lees didn't like the idea of a walk-on being better than a scholarship player, therefore being forced to sit said scholarship player in favor of a walk-on.

That is some pathetic insecurity if true.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I believe the state salary data base for total compensation includes the base salary plus additional benefits such as insurance and deferred retirement payments made by the employer.

On a $250K base, $75K of other bennies is probably pretty close to accurate.

I say "I believe" because it's been awhile since I've visited that site.

No, that is not correct. It is salary (including any payouts like vacation, severance). Not insurance, not retirement. If it was deferred comp actually paid to the employee, that would be there. Think of the "SS wages" line on your W-2......

 

[Observer11]

No, that is not correct. It is salary (including any payouts like vacation, severance). Not insurance, not retirement. If it was deferred comp actually paid to the employee, that would be there. Think of the "SS wages" line on your W-2......

Just so you're aware - I actually passed the CPA exam. I know how that works.

Which is why I said and emphasized "I believe" without actually looking at the database. Actually wrote that twice.

I don't do reconciliations without compensation.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Just so you're aware - I actually passed the CPA exam. I know how that works.

Which is why I said and emphasized "I believe" without actually looking at the database. Actually wrote that twice.

I don't do reconciliations without compensation.

So did I. Even got my license. I don't recall the state database being one of the exam questions though. Come to think of it, the internet was just a gleam in Al Gore's eye back then, so I guess it couldn't have been.

Although some of the dumbest knobs I have ever had the displeasure of working with were/are CPA's. Kind of like lawyers - just because they passed the Bar doesn't make them smart. Or sufferable.

 

[Observer11]

So did I. Even got my license. I don't recall the state database being one of the exam questions though. Come to think of it, the internet was just a gleam in Al Gore's eye back then, so I guess it couldn't have been.

Although some of the dumbest knobs I have ever had the displeasure of working with were/are CPA's. Kind of like lawyers - just because they passed the Bar doesn't make them smart. Or sufferable.

That's a you problem, not a me problem.

My career has been quite fruitful and lucrative.

 

[Loyal Coug]

It sounds like Chun is keeping a close watch on WSU finances again. What is the teams record as of today? The coaches had to be separated as it was described in the dugout. You cannot make this stuff up.

That's a you problem, not a me problem.
My career has been quite fruitful and lucrative.

I was not insinuating that you are a dumb knob. My career has been just fine too - hey how else could we both be on WW at 10AM?

Speaking of dumb knobs, let's pick on our pal ElC instead of each other. I have no idea what he meant (above) about Chun and finances. Unless it was Chun's fault that Bill Moos apparently gave Lees more money than publicized? Or had to pay Marbut 2+ years of salary? Now that would be some trick accounting - involving a time machine for Chun.

 

[Observer11]

I was not insinuating that you are a dumb knob. My career has been just fine too - hey how else could we both be on WW at 10AM?

Speaking of dumb knobs, let's pick on our pal ElC instead of each other. I have no idea what he meant (above) about Chun and finances. Unless it was Chun's fault that Bill Moos apparently gave Lees more money than publicized? Or had to pay Marbut 2+ years of salary? Now that would be some trick accounting - involving a time machine for Chun.

I can accept that explanation and truce.

El's being El. King of talking out of his anal region.

 

[FnuLnu]

What on earth is the point of keeping a guy off the team who wouldn't take up a scholarship??

Pretty simple, unless he is a stud pitcher if he has less than 100% commitment (or 80% or whatever Lees views as acceptable) it probably isn't worth their time working him into the mix.

 

[CougInSpain]

Pretty simple, unless he is a stud pitcher if he has less than 100% commitment (or 80% or whatever Lees views as acceptable) it probably isn't worth their time working him into the mix.

I can tell you without a doubt that Dale was 100% committed to playing baseball at WSU. He had spent a lot of time between his Jr and Sr year training for his chance to walk on and prove himself this year. But that opportunity never materialized and is now just a talking of the past.

Edited to say, he spent as much time as he could training to walk-on WSU's baseball squad without sacrificing his commitment and devotion to football first.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I can tell you without a doubt that Dale was 100% committed to playing baseball at WSU. He had spent a lot of time between his Jr and Sr year training for his chance to walk on and prove himself this year. But that opportunity never materialized and is now just a talking of the past.

Edited to say, he spent as much time as he could training to walk-on WSU's baseball squad without sacrificing his commitment and devotion to football first.

It was Steve Gleason who played baseball and FB back in the day, correct? And didn't he start his senior year? Any others of note besides Hendrickson?

With 35 players, there are at least 8 walkons. 29 players have played this year. 15 position players, and 16 pitchers (including 2 that have done both). So we are saying that Dale couldn't have taken the place of one of the walkons? Like for instance, the coach's son, who has not played? Or is there even a roster limit?

This is just complete BS, and if Dale is really any good it could cost him a chance to show his stuff for scouts and maybe get a minor league contract - as FB is not likely as an option. Another strike in my book for Lees.

 

[Glad Cougar]

I don't believe there is a roster limit. I also suspect the coach's son is redshirting, but don't know for sure. Hopefully, he's a better baseball player than Nick Graham was as a basketball player.

Glad Cougar

 

[95coug]

No, that is not correct. It is salary (including any payouts like vacation, severance). Not insurance, not retirement. If it was deferred comp actually paid to the employee, that would be there. Think of the "SS wages" line on your W-2......

I just looked at the database and compared to my own 2017 W-2 and final pay stub. The database shows gross salary. The employee pays medical premiums and retirement contributions out of the amount shown, then pays taxes as well. So...The employee doesn't actually see the amount shown. But, it also doesn't represent the medical, retirement, and vacation benefits paid on the employee's behalf. For most employees, a multiplier of somewhere around 1.4-1.5 estimates those. I don't remember what salary level the employer contributions are capped at, but it's well below coaching salary levels.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I just looked at the database and compared to my own 2017 W-2 and final pay stub. The database shows gross salary. The employee pays medical premiums and retirement contributions out of the amount shown, then pays taxes as well. So...The employee doesn't actually see the amount shown. But, it also doesn't represent the medical, retirement, and vacation benefits paid on the employee's behalf. For most employees, a multiplier of somewhere around 1.4-1.5 estimates those. I don't remember what salary level the employer contributions are capped at, but it's well below coaching salary levels.

Yep, exactly what I said. Lees' total salary was $328,000 and $305,000 in 2016 and 2017, not counting employer-paid retirement, etc., and thus much more than the $250,000 salary that was announced when he was hired in 2015.

Not that my numbers need validation, because after all I am the highly cerebral, almost mystical Loyal one. but thanks for doing so.