Offensive scheme: still don’t like it
- Thread starter ttowncoug
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Stribling messed up 2 back shoulder throws yesterday. We don't have a receiver with ball instincts other than Bell.
I don't think I have seen this many pessimistic (to put it politely) post about a team a with 7 wins heading into the apple cup after 3 convincing wins agasint pac 12 foes. Especially after the last couple of craps years we had as an institution. There was a time not long ago most here would make fun for husky fans for unrealistic expectations.
It's ridiculous, but I guess it's better to have high expectations than no expectations. We've got the best defense in the conference and just blew out 3 consecutive P12 teams. We lost by 3 vs. Oregon, 4 against Utah, and 14 at Oregon State.
These past 10 years have so much fun. Next season is setting up to be another strong year, as we trade Utah and USC for Colorado and UCLA on the schedule.
Definitely like the schedule upgrade with UCLA and Colorado. Appreciate the improved run game. Our D is the best we've had in a very long time and may be able to maintain the same level next year, even with some guys finishing their eligibility. Ward would be nuts to try to go pro after this season, and next year should be a good one for him to set him up for the draft. All in all, things look good. Now we just have to maintain focus against the Fuskies.
I think my biggest issue is the level at which the offense underperforms. At the core of that is our OC and QB, and the rest of the offense follows them.
We have the pieces, but we’re hamstrung by predictable playcalling, locking onto one receiver, throwing sidearm/submarine to make simple throws off target, and dumb little things like that. Once in a while I’d understand - that’s part of the game. But we’ve done it 11 weeks in a row. Even in our good games.
And that leads into problem #2 - our inability to play a full game on offense. Even in our wins, our offense takes a long break - often in the 2nd half. That leads to the defense spending a long time out there, often on short fields. If games were decided on time of possession, we’d be 3-8.
I'm happy to take a 7-4 record into the Apple Cup despite flaws and shortcomings on offense. Somehow, that troubling offense is able to bolt into big leads in the last 3 games. Certainly, they've taken the foot off the pedal, which is annoying but the Cougars were never really threatened in the past 3 weeks. I, too, wonder why a majority of posts during and immediately after these games dwell on the negative.
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Glad Cougar
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anon_1nb5kgc7kwlls
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Folks see the potential and when the potential doesn't come to fruition they get frustrated.
At least that's my excuse for bitchin' about the offense.
At least that's my excuse for bitchin' about the offense.
I think it's obvious that Cam is not going to be the QB some of us imagined he would be. His decisions and checks at the line don't give me a ton of confidence against a good D. That said, I like that he is running more. Take what the D gives you - and if they give him 8-10 yards up the middle he HAS to bank that yardage. Early in the season it seemed like he would rather try and squeeze a pass through a tight window than take the gimme. Keep running Cam!
Yeah I do think we leave a lot of meat on the bone by not attacking the seems and downfield more(12 yds or more)
I am surprised we haven't turned the ball over on our screen and swing passes. We almost did Saturday. It is too risky when half the time there is a linebacker there hitting the receiver as soon as they catch the ball.
Hopefully it doesn't bite us in the Apple Cup.
To me, its a simple adjustment that can make this offense really dangerous. Deep six the lateral passes and throw down the seams instead.
I am surprised we haven't turned the ball over on our screen and swing passes. We almost did Saturday. It is too risky when half the time there is a linebacker there hitting the receiver as soon as they catch the ball.
Hopefully it doesn't bite us in the Apple Cup.
To me, its a simple adjustment that can make this offense really dangerous. Deep six the lateral passes and throw down the seams instead.
I agree but it's all about contrast.
If it provides any insight, I also graduated from UGA and, after winning the NCG last year and going undefeated in conference this year, I find myself totally unable to enjoy Saturdays. If you're playing a worthy opponent (Tennessee) and you lose, it's a humiliation, and if you win, well, you should have won anyway. And if you're playing an unworthy opponent (Georgia Tech), then WGAF? A few years ago, Alabama was down like 1 TD at home and fans flooded the exits halfway through the 3Q (they won). Winning psychology is the worst.
Basically, with success, you become like a pathological gambler personality who is unable to enjoy wins and really just keeps coming back for the risk of the losses; it's the only thing that gets you high. I heard Dan Bilzerian describe this phenomenon on Howard Stern once. The football version of this is looking the gift horse of 7-9 wins in the mouth and complaining about the teeth.
He has to run to open up the defense. The future of offensive football is running qbs. The days of burning up downs throwing the ball away are coming to an end.
Im hopeful that we will see more opportunities for running QBs and because of that new innovations in the game.
As frustrated as people are with the offense I ran some numbers on the Cougs and Huskies to put things in a little better perspective, since Washington has this high powered offense.. We had 6 common opponents, the Oregon schools, Arizona schools and the Bay Area Schools. The Dogs were 5-1 the Cougs 4-2, needless to say if we don't blow the Oregon game, the records are similar. Where it gets a little more interesting is in the total points scored and the points allowed. In those 6 games the Cougs averaged 31.6 points a game, the Dogs averaged 36 points. On the defensive side the Cougs gave up an average of 21.5 or a spread of 10.1, the Dogs gave up 30.3 or a spread of 5.7, slight edge to the Cougs on that. So this appears to be a fairly close game on paper, yet no one is complaining about the UW offense. The UW pulled out the OSU game and the Oregon game at the end, can't allow this to be a close game. Had OSU kicked two field goals rather than coming up empty both times on 4th down, they win that game. Had Oregon not gone for it on 4th down inside their own 40, and the failed onside kick, that game might have been different. If you told me at the beginning of the year that the Cougs would be 7-4 going into the Apple cup I would have taken it. The Coug offense looks great when it's working, it's the dry spells that are annoying, dropped passes, penalties and missed assignments, poor throws, create the dry spells, I do believe the plays are there, it's the other 4 things that are killing drives. Penix is the best pure passer in the league, and the best passing QB the Huskies have had in 30-40 years, he is that good. Put pressure on him, and his accuracy drops quickly, however they have solid pass protection, so not easy, so some pressure and play great coverage and they can be had. If the Cougs start scoring early and often they can win this game. The last 3 wins were won at half time, thanks to the defense in the 2nd half, unfortunately it didn't work against Oregon, because the defense was gassed, and we will need to score in the 2nd half to win on Saturday.
Ward has tried and is woefully unsuccessful. Most of them are gift balls for the db thrown short and inside, but he's gotten incredibly lucky that they've not been picked off.
This.
And the loser Coug mentality of "hey, its a winning season so stfu and be happy because you're a Coug and shouldn't ever expect anything more" is nauseating.
Nobody said they weren't pleased with the results, its just frustrating because there is so much meat left on the bone with the offense. I'd still like to sniff a conference championship sometime in my lifetime, the O we're watching isn't going to get there.
This season feels a lot like 2017. Good defense, underperforming offense. The biggest issue is consistency. The line wasn't consistently blocking in the first part of the season, receivers haven't been consistently open, the receivers haven't blocked well, the running backs have coughed up a lot of balls, and Ward has missed plenty of receivers when the do get open.
Ever see the progression of Rosenbach between soph and junior year . That should be your comparison . Cam ran option in high school . And stuff he does now can be refined . Rosnebach had numbers like 11 td and 24 picks in 1987, and I swear the ones over the middle, where cam has avoided went back to the house . I think he threw 5 picks went back for td’s . So I would be a little cautious when making that prediction. . People were saying the same thing about Jalen Hurts .
Do you object to putting up 21 points in the first half and Ollie doesn’t fumble it is at least 24. And do you object to the 42 against Stanford and the 31 against asu in first half.
Price use to get “dumb” between seasons, 97 then 98-2000. Morris gets dumb between half’s I guess .
Again, this is as much a line issue as anything else.
I think you would be hard pressed where wsu loses four starters up front and we go bowling . 3 1/2 if you count Greene as a starter
Good summary, Roses. If not for some mental errors we would be 9-2 instead of 7-4. Such is life; mental errors are part of the game. Penix, as you suggested, does well when he has 3-4 seconds in a secure pocket. You noted that he is their best pure passer in decades; that is true; but he looks better because UW also has the best pair of receivers that they have had in a very long time. We need to flush him out of his pocket and make it hard for them to have success in the straight ahead run game. If we do that, we win. If we don't, it will be a long afternoon. Their D will permit us to get some points; how many depends upon two things: how good are they overall? And how well do they match up with us? Do they match up like Oregon & Stanford? Or more like OSU, Cal and the Arizonas? If we remove our two offensive highs (UO & Trees) and the low (OSU), the average of the remaining 3 is 29 points. I'd be thinking that is probably a good guess as to our points against UW, except for their D's poor road performance. If we rush well I think we end up in the upper 30's. If our rush game is so-so, then we end up at about 30. I'd call UW at minimum 21 points. For every drive we give them due to mental errors (I expect at least one of those), add 5 points (even split between FG and TD).
Ultimately I think it comes down to mental errors and turnovers on both sides.
Based on the above, WSU wins 34-30. And I'd put the O/U at 64. However, we've covered the under an insane 6 out of the last 7 or 7 out of the last 8; I'd have to look it up, but our D has made our under one of the best bets in college football for the last couple of months. And the O/U on line now is about 58.5. So...based on that...
WSU 34-24.
He’s already the best young QB in the league. Next season he’ll be a top-3 QB in the conference and will likely be drafted into the NFL.
What did you imagine he’d be beyond that?
A minor point perhaps but the difference between the UW season and the Coug season is really the difference between playing Colorado and playing Utah. If we play Colorado and not Utah then we are 8-3. If they play Utah and not Colorado they probably lose and are also 8-3. Since we lost to USC and they lost to UCLA there is no real difference there. They do pull out a big win against Oregon because Nix got injured and the Oregon coach screwed up while we coughed away the end of the Oregon game but overall there just isn't much difference between the 2 teams.
Good trade, facing UCLA, and Colorado, is better then facing U$C, and Utah.
UCLA won't be good as they are losing almost everything from this season, DTR gone, and get to embarrass UCLA before they go to Big 10, if the regents don't force them to stay in PAC 12.
Maybe WSU will blow UCLA out 75-0, and have the Big 10 dump them because of that.
Colorado is at bottom of PAC 12, and definitely worse then Utah.
WSU returns almost everything, only loses Bell, and Henly, and maybe Watson, but has a COVID year, and replaced by Jenkins, Schlen, if Watson no use COVID year, and Maybe Marsh, if he doesn't use COVID year, and Henly replaced by Travion Brown, Fred Magoa, and Jayden Hicks is special, and WR Corp will be ok without Bell.
And everybody will likely improve.
I think WSU goes 8-4, 9-3 at extreme worst next season, 9-3, 10-2 at average, and 10-2, 11-1, at above average, good, and unbeaten, 13-0, CFP, at extreme best.
I think next season is going to be special, IF MORRIS DOESNT EFF IT UP.
I agree with everything except where you, others say that Cam not going to be the QB that the experts, everybody said he was.
1. Cam has SUFFERED OC Morris, and QB coach, NOT COACHING HIM good, NOT developing him good, NOT CALLING GOOD PLAYS FOR HIM IN PAST, and NOT USING HIS STRENGTHS, WHILE DIMINISHING HIS WEAKNESSES.
2. Cam has been BOTH ABSOLUTELY NFL FREAKING AWESOME at times, AND BAD AT TIMES, AND IS INCONSISTENT.
3. Cam does have NFL Arm, Skills, talents, despite his weaknesses, inconsistent bad play at times. You CANT coach that, you either have it or don't. And if you have it(And Cam has it), IT CAN BE COACHED, DEVELOPED, IMPROVED(Or the potential, upside can be pissed down the toilet).
4. ANTHONY GORDON DIDNT TAKE OFF UNTIL HE WAS A 5TH YEAR SENIOR.
AND UCLA'S QB DTR WASNT AWESOME, NFL BOUND, UNTIL DTR'S 5TH YEAR SENIOR YEAR. AND WAS EXTREMELY BAD HIS FRESHMAN, SOPHMORE YEAR
5. UCLA'S QB DTR AND CAM WARD ARE EXTREMELY SIMILAR QB's, comparison, style, skills, athleticism, arm, etc, and in that Redshirt SOPHMORE Cam is similar to how SOPHMORE DTR WAS.
6. CAM IS ONLY A SOPHMORE.
7. Going from FCS to P5 IS AN ADJUSTMENT, CAN TAKE TIME, TO FIGURE THINGS OUT, ETC
8. I think that Cam will probably improve, get better, and have a special season, goto NFL, etc, next year, season. At worst, if that doesn't happen next year, season, which would be Cam's Junior year, season, then Cam would improve, goto NFL, etc, his SENIOR season.
I'm not worried about it, as if Cam doesn't get it done, I think Mateer will.
Some really good points in this thread, ED. Perspective is needed for a young offense. I thought the schedule lined up for a special season and we have come very close to being in contention for the championship game (losses to Utah and Colorado hurt). But still, this is a young team and the progression of players hasn't been what we hoped for. That doesn't mean folks are behind schedule.
Here is some interesting analysis on the Cougs season so far. Who will be the first one to figure out the sequence, and what will be the next number?
+4 (adjusted to -3)
-14
-13
-8
-16
-7
-7
-10
xxx?
The last 3 games Cam has been running for big time run plays A LOT, the last 3 games, ESPECIALLY LAST GAME where Cam had the most rushing yards at about 60+ rushing yards and had about 6,7,8,9,10 rushing attempts
The problem is that BOTH MORRIS AND CAM have either both either NOT have Cam run it enough, an or when it's successfully, like it was last game, then SUDDENLY STOP, ABANDON DOING IT.
Cam could have had 125 yards rushing IF BOTH MORRIS AND CAM had done it, because Arizona was giving Cam the run all day, which is part of the reason why Cam had 60+ yards, on about 7,8,9 rushing attempts.
Two excellent points. And as Coug Ed said, so much improvement takes place between sophomore and junior seasons. Cougs still have a chance at a 9-win season. Anyone who had higher expectations than that are somewhat unreasonable.
Glad Cougar
You must be younger than I thought. Pac-12 co-champs in 1997 and 2002.
Glad Cougar
I guess I envisioned more of a Penix-type season more in line with his time in D2. I thought we would see a lot more vertical throws and fewer swing passes. I suppose that’s on the OC. Anyway, I should have added the word “yet”. I just thought we’d see more progression through 11 games then we have. Just me.
I'm with the above: you see talent and potential.
I'm also of the belief: our scheme is costing us offensive production. With greater offensive production, we could maybe be 9 wins.
We have a good team. Not a knock on them. The scheme, from my vantage point, is limiting our potential. Against decent defenses we've been very flat. It's not a matter of ""keeping the foot on the gas" its a matter of the basic scheme and the lack of adjustments we do in the second half to keep a defense off balance.
I'm also of the belief: our scheme is costing us offensive production. With greater offensive production, we could maybe be 9 wins.
We have a good team. Not a knock on them. The scheme, from my vantage point, is limiting our potential. Against decent defenses we've been very flat. It's not a matter of ""keeping the foot on the gas" its a matter of the basic scheme and the lack of adjustments we do in the second half to keep a defense off balance.
It's on MORRIS AND Cam being a Sophomore QB semi struggling to make the transition from FCS to P5, BOTH.
But I put more blame on Morris.
That said I do think Morris is improving, and has just barely turned it around enough on offense enough, COMBINED with how the team should be better next season, make things easier for Morris, that Morris should not get fired after the season is over and should get a 2nd chance, be on semi hot seat next season
That said I do think Morris, Cam will be better next season and will win 9,10,11,12,13 games next season, goto either Alamo Bowl, NY6 bowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, Rosebowl, CFP, next season.
The Air Raid is predicated on attacking space. I don't know how you can call this an Air Raid offense and NOT attack the middle of the field like Leach did.
This offense is:
1. Run up the middle.
2. Quick WR screen.
3. Fade route to the sidelines...
offense.
You might see some trickery with a wildcat or something like that, but the basic offense is just that.
Very much designed to limit mistakes, but NOT designed, to rip a defense apart.
This offense is:
1. Run up the middle.
2. Quick WR screen.
3. Fade route to the sidelines...
offense.
You might see some trickery with a wildcat or something like that, but the basic offense is just that.
Very much designed to limit mistakes, but NOT designed, to rip a defense apart.
The team is average. They are 4-4 in league and have lost to every league team ahead of them they’ve played.
“Good,” is not representative of this team. “Average” is.
On a scale of 1-4, 4 being best, the offense is a 2. Barely. I don’t expect it to be a 4. And it sure as hell can’t be a 1. But how long can you be a 2 before it’s a problem? And how long can you continue at a 2 before changes have to be made with coaching?
The defense is a 3. Too many dumb mistakes in the backfield to give it a 4. With the prevalence of tight ends being used by league opponents, is it wise to use a scheme designed to stop the spread passing attacks when league opponents are moving away from them?
Average. 4-4.
“Good,” is not representative of this team. “Average” is.
On a scale of 1-4, 4 being best, the offense is a 2. Barely. I don’t expect it to be a 4. And it sure as hell can’t be a 1. But how long can you be a 2 before it’s a problem? And how long can you continue at a 2 before changes have to be made with coaching?
The defense is a 3. Too many dumb mistakes in the backfield to give it a 4. With the prevalence of tight ends being used by league opponents, is it wise to use a scheme designed to stop the spread passing attacks when league opponents are moving away from them?
Average. 4-4.
Your partially right.
It's not really a true pure Air Raid.
It's a MIX of the Mike Price 1 back, 3,4 WR, 1 TE offense, AND a little, couple, few, some Run and Shoot principles, and a little Pistol, and some RPO, and some Spread, and some Air Raid, and some MULTIPLE options, SONNY DYKES like offense, that runs the ball about 39% of time, and passes about 61% of time, that if 4,5 in Box, run, if 6,7 in box pass, if drop 7,8 into pass coverage run, that uses every blade of grass on field via runs to right, left, middle, tosses, passes, screens to RB's, TE's, that right, left, middle, that short passes, right, left, middle, middle distance passes right, left middle, deep passes right, left, middle, QB runs to right, middle, left, etc, that Dickert calls the COUG RAID.
Problem is
1. that OC MORRIS has not run that offense
2. TE's are not ready to run that offense.
3. Morris either calls bad plays, does too many screen, sideline swing passes, doesn't run enough, stops, abandons run, IN PAST.
4. OL, IN PAST THIS SEASON, and the WR, have not blocked well enough, DROPPED PASSES made running that offense harder for Morris.
IF DICKERT HAD HIS WAY THO, THATS THE OFFENSE HE WOULD SUCCESSFULLY RUN.
The offense is a good offense as look at what Sonny Dykes is doing with the offense at TCU.
It's just that Morris hasn't been running that offense good like Sonny Dykes.
At this point in the season the D is a 4. They are playing as well as any unit not in the SEC right now. Offense just slogs along and does enough to win/be in games. They have zero killer instinct and I think Morris is too quick to get away from what’s working and either gets too cute, or gets a hard on for his WR screen. It’s obviously been better with Watson back, but FFS step on someone’s throat!! If they get up by a couple of scores on UW and F around on offense rather than shutting the door they will lose. If the offense is doing it’s job they put 35+ on UWs defense minimum.…they are not very good.
t, I've done some head scratching on this, as well (and when one is bald, head scratching quickly draws blood!).
First, it is clear that we don't think we can run around the end, or at least we believe that either a swing pass or a WR screen is the better way to attack the end.
The WR screen can be effective, particularly with some effective blocking. Even if it is only marginally effective, it still forces a specific D coverage scheme, which if you then don't run the screen ought to produce somebody open down field...if your QB has 3 seconds to throw.
As long as we have Watson running, I think we can all agree that running up the middle or off tackle has a place.
Sideline routes also have a place if you can place the ball, and once a DB is lulled into thinking everything is a sideline route, you can get behind him. Again, there is a place for this.
The bread and butter of the Air Raid was the mesh route over the middle. That does not work the same with a TE in the game, but a TE delay over the middle is often just as good. We seem to have a TE in the game less than half the time, so I am surprised to see so little going on with WR's over the middle. Mesh routes also tend to discourage blitzing, since it leaves the D pretty open to a quick pass. Finally, the inside receivers don't just stop after the mesh; they turn upfield. That provides another level of receiver to defend, on top of the outside receivers who should be well down the field by that time.
Our blocking for middle screens, shovel passes and draw plays has not been consistently effective. A lack of slant and mesh passes, combined with a poor delay game up the middle, makes the D coordinator's job a lot easier. Cam's scrambles up the middle have been our only consistent threat in that way in several games. All of that lets the opposing DC leave one LB home and otherwise ignore the middle.
I am not a good armchair QB or OC. But after the Leach years (and even the Rolo years), it is weird to see so little happening over the middle this season...
I would agree on the average, the only teams they have beaten without a losing record are Wisconsin and Idaho, an FBS team, so 5 of the wins came against teams with losing records, which are games you should win. A win against Oregon was possible, but lack of Defense in the 4th quarter and the inability of the offense to generate a time consuming drive cost us the Oregon game. Against Utah another game we could have won, but we were depleted in running backs and the offense couldn't generate anything. The strange helmet to helmet call on Jackson cost us 4 points and probably that game. 9 wins or more is above average, 7 or 8 wins and 7th in the conference make this years Coug team average up to this point, a win on Saturday and a bowl win, and you can bump it up slightly.
