Old footage
- Thread starter 7ICoug
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But wait, that cant be accurate, etc, as according to he who shall not be named, USF, Coach Smith, etc, SUCKS, and so because of that, such a supposed SUCKY USF, SMITH, Should not have BLOWN out a P5 team, like STANFORD, that does NOT suck.
The video, all the CREDIBLE sources, all the 20+ win seasons, the CIT tourney, post season, the so far good recruiting, etc totally DISPROVES the he who shall not be named FALSE NARRATIVE of SMITH, USF, SUCKS, ETC.
CANT HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE?
LMAO at he who shall not be named NEGACOUG
Silly the guy has never won any kind of championship in conference play,tournament play or been involved in post season play. Many of you guys were nonstop critics during Kent s tenure now you cry like babies if someone criticizes your new "savior" You guys wrote the book on negacougs.
Kent received a lot of praise after going 7-11 year 1. From that point there wasn't reason to not be a critic during the rest of his tenure. Going 4-14 isn't going to win many championships.
I thought Kent had a chance to be a great hire. After the first year, there were troubling things every season, not just losses, that ate away at my enthusiasm.
No guarantees, but I think the hire of Smith makes a lot of sense. The last thing I wanted was some assistant who built up a hot shot recruiting rep at a blue blood school. Likewise I dont think some young up and comer from a mid major woukd be equipped for the rebuild he would face. I like the fact that Smith is in the hunt for so many kids at a late date regardless of the stars by their names.
No guarantees, but I think the hire of Smith makes a lot of sense. The last thing I wanted was some assistant who built up a hot shot recruiting rep at a blue blood school. Likewise I dont think some young up and comer from a mid major woukd be equipped for the rebuild he would face. I like the fact that Smith is in the hunt for so many kids at a late date regardless of the stars by their names.
I was open to the Kent hire and liked what he said when he was hired. But, I am not insane and didn't believe doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result was going to work.
As far as an assistant at a blue blood school or an up and comer from a mid major, I had no qualifications put on the hire. I think going in with an open mind was important.
You do interviews from a wide variety of candidates and the "one" will be evident. That appears what happened with Smith.
Given the decline in performance by the basketball team over the past half dozen or more years and the decay of whatever interest and fan support the program had, I'm not sure WSU could've attracted a better coach than Smith. Obviously, we have to see how it turns out and the challenges are huge. But this guy has a resume that includes winning records at Columbia and San Francisco that includes post season tournament play at both stops. I'm looking forward to seeing what Smith can do in Pullman.
Glad Cougar
Glad Cougar
I wasn't happy with the Kent hire but the energy and results the first year gave me some optimism. That was tempered by the staff and recruiting the first spring and first full year but still some optimism. Ultimately the staff adjustments came too late and the overall philosophy was clearly had serious flaws.
Smith work is much more current than Kent's was when he took over. Smith's vision for the program might not succeed but at least there is a method to the madness so to speak that correlates to past success. Couldn't really say that with what Kent was trying to do.
Smith work is much more current than Kent's was when he took over. Smith's vision for the program might not succeed but at least there is a method to the madness so to speak that correlates to past success. Couldn't really say that with what Kent was trying to do.
I was against Bone being fired but was happy with the Kent hire. However by the middle of his second year it was pretty clear the emperor had no clothes. Several Oregon friends warned me he was a good recruiter but a horrible coach and that basically played out, except he couldn’t recruit to WSU.
We aren't going to win enough head-to-head battles with other programs to become competitive even if we cheat. For us good recruiting is mostly about projecting talent others ignore and keeping them around long enough to reach their upside so we can compete. Going outside the country to increase the pool obviously helps as well.
For where the program is right now, that is conditionally right.
But that is not always right.
When WSU's program has been winning it has shown that WSU coaches can win head to head recruiting battles for 4 star talent.
Raveling won head to head recruiting battles with, against some semi top semi blue blood programs for Guy Williams a 3 star, Stuart House a 4,5 star(yes I know that didnt have star ranking system back then, but 4,5 stars is what Stuart House would have been ranked as s Parade All American.)
Sampson Recruited Terrence Lewis, Benny Seltzer, Neil Derek, Tony Harris. They would have been 3, 4 stars if Star Rank system had been around back then. Sampson won head to head recruit battles against some bigger name colleges.
Sampson, Eastman recruited 4 star Dominic Ellison, and Hendrickson, Fontaine, all 3,4 stars, that WSU, Sampson, Eastman recruited away from some bigger name colleges.
Also there was Marcus Moore who was a 3,4 star recruit.
Tony/Dick Bennet had:
Low, Klay, Casto, Capers, Baynes, Thames, Akognan, who were 3,4 star recruits.
Bone had:
Reggie Moore, Aden, DJ Shelton, Que, Ike Iroegbu, Isabell, Royce Woolridge, who were 3,4 star recruits.
The point is that when WSU has been RED HOT GOOD, WON A LOT OF GAMES, COMBINED WITH GOOD RECRUITING COACHES:
WSU has beat out the better, semi top, etc, programs head to head for a lot of kids.
When WSU has been bad, and coaches have been bad, recruiting has been bad.
When, if WSU WINS. WSU will start to begin to recruit, beat out the better programs.
So its a false narrative that needs to stop saying that WSU supposedly wont ever beat out the better programs for great recruits.
WSU has beat out blueblood programs for the better recruits
All of the kids mentioned by Mikalalas were nice additions for WSU and some were my favorite players. However none were recruited going head to head with other top Pac 10 schools. If Smith is to succeed he will have to find kids with upside who other schools dont want ti wait to develop
A bunch of those guys were recruited when our facilities were on par or even superior to other programs, that’s not the case anymore. Plus as pointed out by Ava, many were great players but that doesn’t mean WSU won head to head recruiting battles to get them.
Pac 10/12 are not the ONLY better, best, top programs.
There are the other conferences, and the other group of 5 powerhouses like Gonzaga, etc.
Examples:
Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, Uconn, Pitt, St Johns, St Joes, Depaul, Xavier, Seton Hall, Wake Forest, Clemson, Vtech, Virginia, Gonzaga, BYU, Notre Dame, Michigan, Indiana, Michigan St
Pretty much most of the ACC, Big East(When it used to be a Major conference)
Now when you say NO, or ALL Pac schools were interested in NONE of the players I named. I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that is wrong.
Some to maybe most of those names did have interest, offers from Pac 12
1. Bone went HEAD TO HEAD VS STANFORD for a 2,3 star(6 ft 6 in cant remember his name, that was a bench player), and won.
If Pac colleges like Stanford are going to fight over 2 star players, I Guarantee you that they are going to fight over 3,4,5, higher then 2 star players.
2. Just because a Pac College doesnt offer, doesnt mean they are not interested, not going head to head.
3. I absolutely Guarantee you that players like:
Stuart House
Klay Thompson
Dominic Ellison
Que
Ike Iroegbu
Isabell
ALL AT LEAST 4 STARS. And it could be argued that HOUSE, WSU highest ranked recruit ever, was a 5 Star, ALL GOT AT LEAST INTEREST, AN OR IF NOT OFFERS FROM PAC AND OTHER BIGGER COLLEGES, AND THAT WSU WENT HEAD TO HEAD AND WON AGAINST BIGGER COLLEGES.
Even Klay who altho had lots of interest, few offers, got a lot of interest and I think if I remember right a offer from Michigan. So WSU beat out Michigan.
I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE That HOUSE had almost EVERYBODY IN NATION interested and that goes for PAC Colleges, and that at least a couple, few, some Pac colleges offered House. But if they didnt, they were at least interested.
(Oh Btw, that was during the Raveling Era, when the facilities were not good, before Raveling, AD, Pres, etc, helped build the facilities up)
So why, how would a College, Pac or otherwise go head to head, be interested and not offer?
1. There are other 4,5 star kids they want even more, then the highest ended 3 stars to lowest ended 4 stars WSU is after
2. Because of point 1 above, they have LIMITED Schollies left, so dont want to offer, even tho they are EXTREMELY INTERESTED IN the WSU recruit as PLAN B, so that they can sign their PLAN A recruit, and because if they offer their WSU PLAN B recruit, their PLAN A recruit might decide to go elsewhere.
This is why big colleges have not offered a WSU recruit, and then at the last minute, when they didnt get their PLAN A, they swooped in, offered, signed the WSU 3 star recruit.
Now if the bigger college had gotten their PLAN A, and not done that, and WSU instead got the 3 star recruit, some would wrongly say their was no interest by other colleges or that WSU didnt go head to head for that recruit, against any bigger colleges.
3. Sometimes a Bigger College, see that a recruit they want and is interested in, is a STRONG verbal commit to WSU, so they dont bother offering, or trying to go head to head for that recruit.
In that kind of situation, even tho the bigger college didnt offer, WSU still beat out that college head to head in a way.
Example:
High Ended 3 star Reggie Moore
UW wanted, was interested. But he was their PLAN B, then when they lost their Plan A, by that time Reggie Moore had strongly committed to WSU, and so they went elsewhere for their Plan B.
So in a way WSU beat out, went head to head against UW for Reggie Moore, even tho UW never offered.
Pretty much any highest ended ranked 3 star to lowest ended 4 star to a 5 star Stuart House WSU recruit, is in at least a INDIRECT WAY going head to head, beating out other bigger programs, because they are at least PLAN B options for the better, semi top, bigger colleges.
And if those recruits didnt commit, sign with WSU, at least a couple, few, some of them would eventually be scooped up by some of the bigger colleges.
Remember the Dukes, etc have the pick of the recruiting litter in not just the 5 stars, but the best of the 5 stars.
They are interested in, are going head to head against WSU, other colleges, for their 3,4 star Plan B's, that would be Plan A for colleges like WSU, but those bigger colleges wont offer, try to commit, sign those 3,4 star Plan B recruits, even 5 star Stuart House, unless another Duke gets their PLAN A, necessitating that they then sign a 3,4 star, 5 star Stuart House Plan B.
Because of that whenever WSU commits, signs a 4,5 star recruit, WSU has won a head to head battle either, whether directly or indirectly against bigger colleges.
The names I listed did get interest, and sometimes offers, from bigger, better, semi top, etc, Colleges including a couple, few, some Pac colleges
And I guarantee that most to almost all WSU 4+ stars, that I listed got interest, offers from Pac and other bigger, better, semi top, etc colleges.
WSU's 4+ star recruits were MARQUEE recruits, that did get head to head interest, offers from the bigger colleges, that WSU won head to head.
You, others dont need to try to downplay that to try to play the:
"Oh the poor ole little WSU has never and will never ever win a recruiting battle head to head against any of the bigger colleges"
That is FALSE
And is bad thinking, culture that needs to change.
Because of Moos, Floyd, Chun, etc, WSU is playing BIG BOY FOOTBALL, AND BIG BOY BASKETBALL, and changing the "Little Ole WSU" CULTURE, and RAISING EXPECTATIONS.
WSU has won recruiting battles against a bigger college. WSU will again win a recruiting battle against a bigger college
All it will take is for a Basketball Mike Leach type of coach to be successful at WSU, stay, build the program for 9 to 17 years, to help WSU to then go ALL IN with its Basketball program in the future, just like the football program has done.
Is Smith the coach to do that? I dont know.
But I do know that Smith is a good possibility, probability of doing that.
WSU can return to the Raveling, Sampson, Bennet Days, and even exceed, do better then those days, and I think that WSU will eventually do that eventually, and that it can, and might probably will begin to start with Smith.
I think if WSU, Smith is RED HOT successful that Smith will be able to eventually go head to head against the bigger colleges and win those head to head recruiting battles, within about 3 to 16 years, if he stays that long, and if he is RED HOT successful.
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That is correct, at least in the beginning to maybe even mid years into his tenure, if he stays that long.
But eventually, gradually that will slightly change, and WSU, Smith will be able to occasionally beat out bigger colleges for 3,4 star, and lowest ended 5 star recruit, if he Smith stays long enough, and if he is RED HOT SUCCESSFUL.
Also just because your right, correct in what your saying about what Smith needs to do to be successful does NOT mean that Smith, WSU would NEVER EVER beat out a Duke, etc, for a highest ended 3 star to lowest ended 4 star to lowest ended 5 star recruit.
About 1 to 13% of WSU Smith's recruits would be 3,4,5 stars that he beats out Dukes for, if he stays long enough and if he is RED HOT SUCCESSFUL enough.
The rest, other 85% to 95% would be exactly the kind of recruits that Ava is talking about.
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Klays dad shopped him to every Pac 10 school. WSU only taker . Ellison wanted to go to USC. They didnt offer.
Be careful when you compare Ravelings recruiting. Some iof his high profile recruits couldnt get in today, and werent great citizens. Apologies to Terry Kelly, Aaron Haskins and Guy Williams among those who were great representatives of WSU.
Be careful when you compare Ravelings recruiting. Some iof his high profile recruits couldnt get in today, and werent great citizens. Apologies to Terry Kelly, Aaron Haskins and Guy Williams among those who were great representatives of WSU.
By the way, you do realize thst all the "4-5 star" recruits you listed have resulted in exactly 5 NCAA trips over the last 40 years. As I said, many of those guys were favorites of mine, but in most cases there were no more than 1 or 2 of them on an otherwise under manned team. I will say again, we didnt beat out any other power 5 confetence schools for the vast majority.
Pointing to the Low, Weaver Cowgill Harmeling group disproves your own argument. Most successful team in WSU history, and all but Low were pased over by other top tier teams. Dick and Tony did a masterful job of finding under the radar talent. Even more telling was that Tony wasn't able to parlay that success into more competitive recruiting. Klays class looked like such a goup on paper, but Watson Witherill and Harthun didnt work out, and Capers was a great hard working kid who was a D1 role player for most teams. We dont get Casto if anyone wanted to take a chance on his grades.
Bottom line, recruiting and developing under the radar talent has to be a long term strategy.
Pointing to the Low, Weaver Cowgill Harmeling group disproves your own argument. Most successful team in WSU history, and all but Low were pased over by other top tier teams. Dick and Tony did a masterful job of finding under the radar talent. Even more telling was that Tony wasn't able to parlay that success into more competitive recruiting. Klays class looked like such a goup on paper, but Watson Witherill and Harthun didnt work out, and Capers was a great hard working kid who was a D1 role player for most teams. We dont get Casto if anyone wanted to take a chance on his grades.
Bottom line, recruiting and developing under the radar talent has to be a long term strategy.
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What is funny about the whole thing is you guys talking about' dufus s style". You guys want the" fist offense": where the Pg stands with the ball n his hip at half court then starts a methodical pattern play. Of course dufus says 'we are going to run" Is this true ?or a blatant lie to attract better recruits who want to play a faster style? This is hilarious stuff.
Not really sure where the notion that Smith wants to slow down the ball on offense comes from. He has always been known as an offensive coach, his teams consistently score in the high 70s and low 80s. Just because a coach wants to play good defense doesn’t mean he plans on holding the ball. Nerd ball and Bennett ball are not close to the same thing. Just because both coaches run a systematic based style doesn’t mean the systems are the same. USF scores 76 points a game last year and allowed 67. That’s not slow down basketball. In comparison WSU scored 74 and allowed 78.
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I thought the same thing Jourdand. Nobody plays the kind of slow down ball from the old Princeton style. Heck, Raveling was more of a half court slow down coach primarily because of no shot clock. I will bet we have fewer shot clock violations in Smiths offense than we got from Ernie when 4 guys stood around with no spacing
Goes with the territory. Raveling was amazing. Brought in Moses Malone and Marquess Johnson the same weekend as Johnson tells the stories.
Every coach has had their troubled kids. Millard lucky his wasn't the day of social media. His mug would be like those of a couple years ago at a party throwing punches for the whole world to see.
George got Stuart House, Don Collins, etc.....when Beasley Performing Arts Coliseum was brand spanking new and one of the better venues in the Pac-8. I was there.
Glad Cougar
Yes WSU has to get develop under the radar talent. But in addition to that WSU needs to get 0,1,2,3, 3 stars to highest ended 3 stars, to low end 4 stars to lowest ended ever 5 stars, at least ecery other year, to go along with all the lots of under the radar, diamond in rough 1,2,NR star recruits.
And the HC has to be able to develop both the rare, unccommon, occassional 3,4,5 star recruit in addition to developing the under the radar recruits.
And the HC on rare, uncommon occassions, needs to beat out better, bigger colleges for the ocassional 3,4,5 star recruit, to go with, along the under the radar recruits.
That is how Raveling, Sampson, Tony has won at WSU.
And that is how HC's at WSU will be successful at WSU.
Enough of the POOR LITTLE OLE WSU cant recruit LOSER Mentality, culture.
RAISE EXPECTATIONS to higher, but still semi realistic expectations.
Those expectations have been achieved in past, and can be achieved again.
And the first right steps are getting the right HC, better facilities, BBall program going ALL IN like football, and FANS RAISING EXPECTATIONS, getting rid of the POOR OLE LITTLE OLE WSU CANT RECRUIT, WIN, ETC, LOSER MENTALITY, BAD CULTURE.
And that will happen when WSU wins more
Of course we have to develop kids we get. We also need to get the occasional blue chip talent no matter how many stars. We just arent going to make a living getting those kids in any quantity. The Hendricksons, Fontaines, Lacys are fundamental to get, but we aren't finding 2 of them every year.
Ava's comment "Even more telling was that Tony wasn't able to parlay that success into more competitive recruiting." is telling. Sampson really wasn't able to either. I remember he was reasonably close with Michael Dickerson and Scot Pollard but of course they ended up at Arizona and Kansas. I have talked about what Harshman talked about when he was at WSU recruiting many times.
It doesn't get much easier even when you get over hump to compete in recruiting in Pullman. I like what I hear from Kyle Smith. He's lost recruits to Michigan and UVa when they sweep in at the end and offer. He's going after players with 3 or 4 stars next to their name but also seems just as intrigued about uncovering the next Robbie Cowgill. Like Dick he has pretty much spent his career at places where they won but had to do things unconventionally when it came to recruiting. He seems to know what to look for when projecting the under-the-radar talent and we need that kind of eye in Pullman.
It doesn't get much easier even when you get over hump to compete in recruiting in Pullman. I like what I hear from Kyle Smith. He's lost recruits to Michigan and UVa when they sweep in at the end and offer. He's going after players with 3 or 4 stars next to their name but also seems just as intrigued about uncovering the next Robbie Cowgill. Like Dick he has pretty much spent his career at places where they won but had to do things unconventionally when it came to recruiting. He seems to know what to look for when projecting the under-the-radar talent and we need that kind of eye in Pullman.
2 things to consider. First, if you can coach and develop at the mid major level you can do it at the high major level. You are going to have to over achieve to a similar degree at either level. Second, the bottom half of the Pac 12 is not that formidable, and never has been. Not as tough to get up to 6th or 7th as it may seem if you can do the first.
WSU needs to find, get, beat out bigger better colleges, for a high end 3 star, low end 4 star, Lowest Ended Ever 5 star, etc, whether a Stuart House, Don Collins, Guy Williams, Terrence Lewis, Bennie Seltzer, Neil Derek, Tony Harris, Fontaine, Hendrickson, Dominic Ellison, Shamon Antrum, Marcus Moore, Kelati, Low, Akognan, Rochestie, Baynes, Klay, Casto, Capers, Thames, Reggie Moore, Aden, DJ Shelton, Motum, Que, Ike Iroegbu, Royce Woolridge, Lacy, Isabell, Cannon, Elleby.
A WSU HC needs, should be able to find, get, beat out a bigger college for, etc, for at least 1 of those type of 3,4,5 star recruits, every 1 year to every other year, to every 3 years at worst, in order to win.
Thats in addition to the 1,2 star, no star, NR, etc, Under the Radar, Diamond in the rough, high Potential, UPSIDE players.
Not 2,3,4 a year, but at least 1 a year, an or 1 every other year, an or 1 every 3 years at worst.
Thats doable.
Its been done before by Raveling, Sampson, Tony, at WSU, and it can be done again at WSU.
Is, can, will Smith do that? I dont know, BUT good possibility, probability.
But we'll see.
I agree with you that you must first have the vision. I will confess what scares me is locally today they were talking about the Mariners and Jerry Dipoto and how he had the correct vision to tear it down. Then the radio folks went one by one on the "net of the trades" and it is discovered we traded away our most valuable assets and don't have anything to show for it.
A trade JP made over the weekend he "reacquired" a 19 year old player he traded away last fall. And he gave up a guy who has just spanked over 20 homers.
So I hope Smith not only has the vision but can find players that will finally get the team to a playoff game.
