OT: Muhammad Ali, "The Greatest," stings and floats no more...
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He hasn't been in the public eye much the last decade or so but I will still miss the guy. A remarkable athlete with underrated intelligence who mellowed into a decent guy and good role model after he left the Black Muslims and started accepting people of all races as God's children. R.I.P.
That was a period that definitely included that negative aspect (although Muslims reject the idea that God produces children, so he simply followed the faith there), but his faith also provided him strength to stand strong against oppression - a will exhibited by many great religious figures throughout history. As far as we know, his faith might have protected him from some of the mafia influences that ruled boxing (or still rules?). As with many lives, he went through many transformations. As with any human being, some were great, some bad. I always thought of him as one of the people I'd most like to meet, so I'll leave this thread with this image...
"If a man views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20, he has wasted 30 years of his life."
Muhammad Ali
Muhammad Ali
There's nothing this guy couldn't do.
http://www.slate.com/articles/sport..._stopped_a_man_from_leaping_to_his_death.html
As a boxer, he will go down among the greats of all time. The first big heavyweight. But with speed of a middleweight. He was wrongful barred from boxing in his prime because of his association, and his over George Foreman showed not only that he was pretty, he was a very tough SOB. But like much of American history, Ali the "great man," is as much myth as reality. For example, the NSAC sanctioned his last fight though he failed his Neuro exam -- honestly -- nonsense. His chronic mistreatment of those around him, the philandering, his treatment of Joe Fraizer, his David Duke like racism and his opportunism of the first order, leaves me ambivalent.
Was Ali a saint? No. Was he just a good boxer with no other redeeming qualities? A resounding no. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their own issues to deal with.
He was a tall figure in his time and field. He held to his convictions. Regardless of whether I agreed with them all, I have to salute that. He marched to his own drummer.
He mastered completely his profession like no other ever. At times he fought 5-6 title fights in one year! No other fighter before or since has done that. He dodged no one.
He stood firm in his conviction..to the point of losing 3 years in his utmost prime. He didn't March on Washington, he didn't burn his draft card, he didn't bail to Canada and he didn't burn LBJ in effigy. He stood firm for what he believed was his right.
After his career was over he contributed millions to make this world a better place. He used his notoriety for good.
Yea, he made many mistakes, as you mentioned. But his achievements inside and outside the ring far outnumber the bad.
Outstanding post 79Coug! Outside of his hatred ( or supposed hatred) for Frazier....I don't know what else is all that bad? The achievements outside the ring are really what's remarkable.
The hatred was by Joe Fraizer towards Ali, not the other way. He is the Joe Frazier story: After being banned from boxing Ali was flat broke. Joe, the Champ, quietly supported Ali for nearly three years, including paying his large legal bills, avocating strongly to get his license back. How did Ali repay Joe? Once he could support himself again, by accusing him of being an "Uncle Tom" repeatedly in public, and mocking Joe's looks, intelligence and many other things, most importantly, never acknowledging, even privately, Joe's kindness with a thank you, not apologizing until 2001.
It took Joe 40 years to overcome the hurt and forgive Ali.
Ali treated Larry Holmes, a long time training partner and friend, similarly.
No doubt that Ali was a hugh personality, and the life of the party, but...
Do you know what the word "ambivalent" means? Wow. He never said he had "no" redeeming qualities, but he had more than his share of talent and even more than his share of ego beyond that talent that led him into various degrees of stupidity. He was neither saint nor devil. Speaking of ambivalence....it is plausible that he rescued boxing, took it from the death of the Duhhhhh Palooka into something else. But that was likely a bad thing. Boxing should have died long ago. And if Ali rescued it, then that was a bad thing. Hell, it killed him in the end, and before it did it made a very articulate guy into a stammering, shaking mess. Even his PR bozos deserve censure for trying to pass all that off on non-boxing Parkinsons. That myth was later debunked. So Ali could have rescued the gun that killed him. And that is why ambivalence is the only reasonable attitude to take.
Please. Yeah he "stood firm." So what? It's a hell of a lot harder to have 1,000,000 VC trying to kill you. This country made him rich.
Aw yes, once more unto the breach, dear friends! Blindly do what your country says is right!
I would say he made himself rich...through talent, hard work and masterful self promotion.
Pretty sure he was never on welfare so I'm thinking "this country" never made him rich.
I respect his athletic ability. I have a difficult time moving past his racism, particularly his stance on both segregation (for) and inter-racial couples(against-should be lynched). I have not been moved by other racists who claim repentance when their racism is no longer as popular...I doubt I will be moved to ever embrace him much more than any other hate monger.
You must forgive my ignorance, SC, but between the "chronic mistreatment", philandering, racism and opportunism, I failed to detect any ambivalence other than for his boxing prowess. Please enlighten me if my perception was faulty.
I have no inside knowledge as to his relationships and behavior towards Frazier or others but seriously doubt that Ali "hated" Frazier. I remember reading many years ago that while visiting Los Angeles one time, Ali became aware of and fascinated by Gorgeous George, an old-time wrestler who was famous/notorious for his bravado and pompous behavior. George was famous for his curly blond hair which he had festooned with "gold-plated" hair pins which he would throw to the ladies in the crowd. That and flashy attire differentiated him from the others. George was a good wrestler but an even better showman. Sold a lot of tickets. When you look at the current professional "wrestlers" you're looking at Gorgeous George. He started it all. Ali began consciously patterning his public behavior after Gorgeous George's with outrageous predictions and professed contempt for the opponent. He, too, sold a lot of tickets. May have overdone it a bit regarding Frazier and certainly got under his skin. The point that I am getting to in a somewhat meandering fashion is that his pronouncements were often just bombast and not meant to be taken seriously. Just part of the upcoming fight's advertisement.
Regarding his public stands against racism (post Black Muslim days) and the Vietnam War, he was right on both. Pissed off a lot of people in the process but many were wrong and he was right. He was sitting out the war around the time that I was serving in the army and I do not begrudge him on that a bit.
Regarding his public stands against racism (post Black Muslim days) and the Vietnam War, he was right on both. Pissed off a lot of people in the process but many were wrong and he was right. He was sitting out the war around the time that I was serving in the army and I do not begrudge him on that a bit.
extremely articulate and witty spokesman for (first) Nation of Islam and (second) his own POVs, and later diatribes. He DID serve as a Jesse Jackson self-styled promoter and unofficial ambassador of good will at times. And he was very charming. All those things are true. But also, he was clearly a racist just as much as Farakhan ever was, and the ONLY reason he got away with it was because of his color. His wittiness also was a stand-in for much depth on anything. So.....meh
?? Seriously? I did not say the "government" made him rich....but he used every bit of the political process to hide under the protections of the very government he so hypocritically criticized. It was the country as in its people who paid to see him....and now the ignorant and silly lionize him. Ali was as much a product of the times as he was the master of them....and that's what so many people forget. He lucked out and was born into a time when it was fashionable to for militant blacks to criticize blacks as "Uncle Toms" (as Malcolm X did to MLK, Andrew Young, Ralph A, etc.). Ali caught the social wave at just the right time.
And yeah, I will stick by my original point too: it's a hell of a lot easier (and safer) to "protest" like Ali did than actually go into harm's way
But did you go to Vietnam? I wonder what Vietnam's veterans groups think of the lionization of Ali?
Ali went from boxing showman, to political figure as a symbol of opposition to the war (white America), and empower not only for black America, but people of color worldwide. The most visable and successful example of a blackman standing up for himself, in a white world. He was seen as being right up there with Stephen Bantu Biko and Nelson Mandela, in a political sense, and is largely responsible for turning American from a culture where racism was not only acceptable, but moral, to making it unacceptable. As an athlete "the greatest" likely applies. He also was a tremendous competitor, with a refuse to quit attitude like few others. The ambivalence comes for his personal short coming. I have a high standard for my heroes. My heroes must not only be a hero in the spotlight - definitely Ali, but also when it is off -- that isn't Ali. But he isn't alone, Mother Teresa is another classic example of a spotlight hero only
For me this view isn't politically motivated. I'm saying it a "power to the people" leftist.
How does making racist statements and advocating for the lynching of multi-racial couples fit with this? How is him being openly for segregation fit with this? I am trying to understand how he is largely responsible for making something unacceptable by espousing views that seem to condone it?
Are you serious? He "LUCKED OUT" by being black and being among a class that wasn't even allowed to vote and had to use separate bathrooms and had to sit in the back of the bus. Yep, sounds like he lucked out for sure.
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Lucking out would be the orange-faced comb over who inherited millions, and who'd go on to defraud people of millions and then spew racist and misogynistic hate in a run for the presidency. But guess who glory is voting for?
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History shows us in the end the people who protested the Vietnam war were correct. The people who fought in the war followed their directive. They are patriots. But what Glory clearly misses is they should be fighting for Ali's right, or anyone else right to protest.
And something I heard so profound is that the white soldiers who fought in that war came home to all the benefits they were fighting for. They came home with the right to go to any school, to vote, to sit where they wanted, to go the bathroom in the public bathroom, not one that was designated for "black's only". Not sure I would be highly motivated to get shot at by "1,000,000" North Vietnamese if I did not enjoy the benefits of a free country when I got back safe and sound.
He stood up against something he didn't believe in. Isn't that what the soldiers (who were having a 1,000,000 VC shoot at them) were defending, his right and others right to have their freedom of speech.
Now tell me what you think is more difficult- standing up for what you believe in even though it may be unpopular, or not standing up at all but not serving, taking I believe four deferments for being in two different colleges, and then taking a medical deferment for having bone spurs in his heel?
Good question. I have often wondered this myself. I would chalk it up to general ignorance regarding Ali the person, beyond the symbol. Let's not forget that OJ got away murder and that decision was popular in a number of circles home and abroad, as he became a symbol too.
I think both of you are giving Ali too much credit, as a man of principle and as a master manipulator, respectively. Indications are Ali wasn't bright enough to be much of either -- he had a borderline IQ of 78 -- Chauncey Gardner and Forrest Gump comes to my mind. Ali could speak, was attractive and was very very charming, but he was parroting Bundini Browns' words and his principles came from the leader of a cult, of which he was a member. Surely, you know this deep down.
Well he seemed smart enough to dodge an unjust war...not sure Chauncy Gardner or Forrest Gump were that smart.
Hmm i wonder what the service records are of the people who are espousing criticism of Ali? Did they serve or did the older ones go to Vietnam? I was in the service but did not go anywhere but in the United States.
You do know the history of IQ tests, their inherent biases, and black Americans' experience with them, right? You do know the educational barriers that existed when a young Cassius Clay was growing up, correct?
Unjust? I suspect that the family and friends of the millions of innocent people murdered by the Communists would have issue with that claim.
The only unjust part was how some U.S. citizens treated our troops when they returned home...even as they were just doing a job their corrupt government sent them to do.
"unjust war" ... "their corrupt government."
Ali knew enough about the French government's failure in Vietnam and had a deeper concern for it than did our "corrupt government," as you aptly call it. As for his personal flaws, it is true they were many, but he did shift away from the more radical views (segregation, opposition to mixed relationships) as he got older.
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The Vietnam War is recognized as a colossal failure in any way imaginable. The tremendous loss of life,money The Horrendous ,US scorched earth policy which still has Agent Orange casualties living today. ,and other failures are well recognized.The photos of that war are etched in the World s Minds. The last photos of helicopters taking off while shredding USA sympathizers clinging is a pathetic testimony of the wrongness and failure. The "half breeds" left behind and later shunned are also a miserable testimony to USA presence and failure A good friend of mine adopted two half Black / half Vietnamese boys.raised them and paid for their college education. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the man who in a small way righted some of the War s unknown casualties. I can also see Ali clowning his way through the very important IQ test. The inherent racism in people s views of Ali are a sight to behold.
Don't call anyone a racist unless you know that to be a fact. That is slander and is thus very serious.
Ali was a great boxer, there is no doubt about that. Reasonable people can have differing views on his personal life and it has nothing to do with racism.
