The 8th of May

[cr8zyncalif]

H, I agree with your perspective if you were speaking of the thoughts of the 58,000 at the time they died.

But I think Loyal's point (at least the way I interpreted it) was in hindsight. A hindsight that those kids were denied, but a perspective that we can none the less discuss. As he said, they would probably agree if they were here today...which implies knowing what we know now, not just what they knew then. From that standpoint, I think I have to agree with Loyal, at least as it would apply to the majority. All of us of that age knew people before they went, knew some who never returned, and knew ones who returned somewhat damaged.

I have found the reconciliation trips back to Vietnam by Vietnam vets to be personally moving. I also have contemporaries who are members of the SoCal Viet community who have had their own journeys through the grief cycle, and for some of them their insights into what constitutes acceptance, as well as their observations on those who have never achieved (and may never achieve) acceptance has been illuminating to me. Note that I did not say forgiveness; though forgiveness is often a part of achieving acceptance, once an individual recognizes that forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver more than the forgiven.

I will also note that as long as the famous couple of wingnuts on this board can keep their shirt in their pants, I find these discussion side trips to be helpful. A lot of this is stuff that is much more difficult to discuss face to face, and I find that this board can prompt some useful personal reflection.

 

[mikalalas]

You suggest a broad consensus among the 58,000+ who made the ultimate sacrifice in Vietnam, apparently to try to support a simplistic view of a complex and contentious issue.

Knowing the mindset of many before they were unfortunately included in that painful statistic, and others of us who survived, I have to disagree.

Your opinion of the Vietnam era protests is shared or opposed by many, for a variety of personal reasons and motives, as it will no doubt always be. But it is not validated by an imaginary consensus of the now-voiceless 58,000+.

AMEN! And thanks for your service.

And altho you dont need me to say so, I agree that your right in about what you said about both Loyal, and Vietnam.

Loyal unfortunately CONSTANTLY brings up Political Comments, where he ASS U MES e that he is right, that everyone will agree with him, and is SHOCKED when someone disagrees, and thinks the other person is a idiot for disagreeing, and sometimes thinks the person is a racist for disagreeing, which is hypocritic since he has made racist comments himself

Unfortunately he behaves like others of his political side in trying to SHUT PEOPLE UP who disagree.

He, others have been told many times, that if they dont make political comments, people wont respond back with political comnents, disagree, etc.

About Vietnam:

My friend's father who was in the Vietnam War as a Lieutenant Commander, in the Airforce, briefed, debriefed pilots, told me about the Vietnam War.

I studied, researched, learned all I could about the war, talked to Vietnam Vets, did not just listen to the one political side that kept saying how wrong the war was, etc.

I learned that it was the South Vietnamese, and the UN who ASKED the USA to HELP DEFEND the South Vietnamese by war, thus JUSTIFYING the war, a UNPOPULAR, UNKNOWN, iGNORED FACT.

Now people can say the USA should have refused that request, not gotten involved, but they should not say that USA started the war, that the war unjustified.

I also learned that that the CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP to the President down to A COUPLE, FEW, SOME MILITIARY LEADERSHIP, BS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, were INCOMPETENT, made those that fought the war, fight it with one arm behind back.

Hamburger Hill, where they were ordered to take hill, then took hill, then ordered to leave hill, retake hill, etc, and pilots being told not to hit certain weapons, oil, etc, dumps are, were prime examples of what said above.

I also learned that PROTESTORS like Loyal were also partially responsible for Vietnam being lost.

In a book by retired North Vietnamese General Von Nguyen, he said the North Vietnamese were extremely close to SURRENDERING to South Vietnam, UN, USA. And then they saw the PROTESTORS on the news. And took hope in that, and thought that if they could just hang in there a little longer, that the PROTESTORS would make it harder for USA to fight, that political pressure would cause USA to leave.

And thats what happened. Protestors like traitor LIBTARD Jane Fonda who sat on a North Vietnamese Cannon, gun, helped lose the war.

I also learned that at the end of the War, the USA LET DOWN, BROKE PROMISES TO THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE.

The USA was asked to help South Vietnames, by the Vietnamese, UN. The USA PROMISED that USA wouldnt let them down.

And the USA promised that USA would take the South Vietnamese with them when they left.

And it was sad to watch video of USA leaving, BREAKING ITS PROMISE, LEAVING ALMOST ALL THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE BEHIND, THAT PROMISED TO TAKE SOUTH VIETNAMESE WITH THEM.

And after USA left, it was sad that the NORTH VIETNAMESE went in and CONQUERED the south vietnamese.

This view, and facts of course disagrees with Loyal, and will of course catch flak from, get called a idiot, etc, from Loyal, because I disagree with Loyal, and because I dared to respond to Loyal's political commenr, with a political comment, that disagrees with his political comment.

I appreciate that you, I, others are willing to put Loyal in his place.

So thanks for your comment, and thanks for your service.

 

[froropmkr72]

The cutoff for 'Boomers' has always been pretty murky. I'm at the tailend but have absolutely nothing in common with someone born in the 40s or 50's. They were the flower children and the entitled offspring of the Greatest Generation. My parents were Depression Babies too young to serve in the Big One. And I'm too young to have been affected by Vietnam, other than what came on the news after Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers - more of Baby Buster than a Boomer.

The Beatles suck, too, by the way.

Ok, you lost me at the end.

 

[Loyal Coug]

And altho you dont need me to say so, I agree that your right in about what you said about both Loyal, and Vietnam.

Loyal unfortunately CONSTANTLY brings up Political Comments, where he ASS U MES e that he is right, that everyone will agree with him, and is SHOCKED when someone disagrees, and thinks the other person is a idiot for disagreeing,

Unfortunately he behaves like others of his political side in trying to SHUT PEOPLE UP who disagree.

I also learned that PROTESTORS like Loyal were also partially responsible for Vietnam being lost.

And the USA promised that USA would take the South Vietnamese with them when they left.

Gee, guess I need to add you to my stalker list.

HCoug had an intelligent, measured reply and experienced-based reply to my post. Cr8did a nice job of exploring the perspective. Beyond that, in order:

• HCoug didn't really "say" anything about me. But you sure did
• I infrequently make political comments. Unlike you, dude
• I rarely (if ever) call anyone an idiot
  
• "My" political side tries to shut up those who disagree? What side is that?
• I was too young to protest (or not) the Vietnam war
• I was unaware that the US promised to take "the South Vietnamese" with them. That would have been a helluva big plane

 

[CougEd]

Your right about the typewriter example you used.

BUT IN GENERAL, with GOOD COMPANIES, not typewriter example:

Cutting Epic Sky high Taxes CAN make it so that SOME good companies CAN create more jobs.

Its CALLED TRICKLE DOWN. Cutting sky high taxes, gives good companies more money, which allows good campanies to EXPAND, create more jobs, and higher paying jobs, etc.

Or if there is no demand they can put those cuts in their compensation package. And that is more likely.

Look, in theory it is a great concept. Just doesn't apply anymore, if ever. Wall Street creates tons of paper money. Tell me how there is a velocity of money from wealth managers. They watch that money grow. What job is that creating?

Why do banks, comcast, Aetna all offshore their call centers to the Philippines or India? When you say create jobs, do you mean in this country? Thos compaies could keep those jobs in the states but they elect not to. Do you know why?

 

[CougEd]

AMEN! And thanks for your service.

And altho you dont need me to say so, I agree that your right in about what you said about both Loyal, and Vietnam.

Loyal unfortunately CONSTANTLY brings up Political Comments, where he ASS U MES e that he is right, that everyone will agree with him, and is SHOCKED when someone disagrees, and thinks the other person is a idiot for disagreeing, and sometimes thinks the person is a racist for disagreeing, which is hypocritic since he has made racist comments himself

Unfortunately he behaves like others of his political side in trying to SHUT PEOPLE UP who disagree.

He, others have been told many times, that if they dont make political comments, people wont respond back with political comnents, disagree, etc.

About Vietnam:

My friend's father who was in the Vietnam War as a Lieutenant Commander, in the Airforce, briefed, debriefed pilots, told me about the Vietnam War.

I studied, researched, learned all I could about the war, talked to Vietnam Vets, did not just listen to the one political side that kept saying how wrong the war was, etc.

I learned that it was the South Vietnamese, and the UN who ASKED the USA to HELP DEFEND the South Vietnamese by war, thus JUSTIFYING the war, a UNPOPULAR, UNKNOWN, iGNORED FACT.

Now people can say the USA should have refused that request, not gotten involved, but they should not say that USA started the war, that the war unjustified.

I also learned that that the CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP to the President down to A COUPLE, FEW, SOME MILITIARY LEADERSHIP, BS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, were INCOMPETENT, made those that fought the war, fight it with one arm behind back.

Hamburger Hill, where they were ordered to take hill, then took hill, then ordered to leave hill, retake hill, etc, and pilots being told not to hit certain weapons, oil, etc, dumps are, were prime examples of what said above.

I also learned that PROTESTORS like Loyal were also partially responsible for Vietnam being lost.

In a book by retired North Vietnamese General Von Nguyen, he said the North Vietnamese were extremely close to SURRENDERING to South Vietnam, UN, USA. And then they saw the PROTESTORS on the news. And took hope in that, and thought that if they could just hang in there a little longer, that the PROTESTORS would make it harder for USA to fight, that political pressure would cause USA to leave.

And thats what happened. Protestors like traitor LIBTARD Jane Fonda who sat on a North Vietnamese Cannon, gun, helped lose the war.

I also learned that at the end of the War, the USA LET DOWN, BROKE PROMISES TO THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE.

The USA was asked to help South Vietnames, by the Vietnamese, UN. The USA PROMISED that USA wouldnt let them down.

And the USA promised that USA would take the South Vietnamese with them when they left.

And it was sad to watch video of USA leaving, BREAKING ITS PROMISE, LEAVING ALMOST ALL THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE BEHIND, THAT PROMISED TO TAKE SOUTH VIETNAMESE WITH THEM.

And after USA left, it was sad that the NORTH VIETNAMESE went in and CONQUERED the south vietnamese.

This view, and facts of course disagrees with Loyal, and will of course catch flak from, get called a idiot, etc, from Loyal, because I disagree with Loyal, and because I dared to respond to Loyal's political commenr, with a political comment, that disagrees with his political comment.

I appreciate that you, I, others are willing to put Loyal in his place.

So thanks for your comment, and thanks for your service.

First, what place are you trying to put Loyal in? Trust me, there are many views about the Vietnam war. If there ever was an injustice it was the treatment the vets received when they came back home. People didn't volunteer for the service, the country told them they are going off to war.

Many people can debate the Vietnam war, and I am more than willing to listen to others, especially those who were on the front lines.

It is my personal opinion the US made the mistake of not knowing their enemy. They have done that several times now. I remember seeing a history channel documentary on the war and they interviewed a North Vietnamese soldier. He said the following that was to this day remains with me..."the US didn't understand us. They said they would bomb us into the stone ages, but we were already in the stone ages. We carried our wounded and dead by horse and cart."

It was similar to the mistake made for the Iraq war, that it would be over shortly, that Iraq would pay for it, that it would costs us less than 500 million and the oil would pay for our participation...and oh yeah, we would be viewed as liberators.

What we don't understand we invariably screw up. We assume people want to be like us and are motivated as we are. And that simply is not true.

 

[kayak15]

First, what place are you trying to put Loyal in? Trust me, there are many views about the Vietnam war. If there ever was an injustice it was the treatment the vets received when they came back home. People didn't volunteer for the service, the country told them they are going off to war.

Many people can debate the Vietnam war, and I am more than willing to listen to others, especially those who were on the front lines.

It is my personal opinion the US made the mistake of not knowing their enemy. They have done that several times now. I remember seeing a history channel documentary on the war and they interviewed a North Vietnamese soldier. He said the following that was to this day remains with me..."the US didn't understand us. They said they would bomb us into the stone ages, but we were already in the stone ages. We carried our wounded and dead by horse and cart."

It was similar to the mistake made for the Iraq war, that it would be over shortly, that Iraq would pay for it, that it would costs us less than 500 million and the oil would pay for our participation...and oh yeah, we would be viewed as liberators.

What we don't understand we invariably screw up. We assume people want to be like us and are motivated as we are. And that simply is not true.

Quite true, Ed. Our military leaders never understood the basic strategy of the Viet Cong/ NVA. As we were meeting and discussing the end of the conflict with the North, one of our colonels somewhat bitterly stated to his Vietnamese counterpart that we had never lost a battle. The NVA colonel agreed but reminded him that they had won the war. They were not trying to defeat us in the classic manner but simply wear us down until we got fed up and left. Essentially the Vietnamese were destined to succeed. Either the North or the South. We were just hanging in there and waiting for the South Vietnamese to get their act together and finally concluded that they never would.

Another issue, one that is not mentioned, is that many of the leadership had no motivation to succeed in ending the war. When I was in ROTC in the early sixties we were informed that it would take 18 months or so to advance from second lieutenant to first lieutenant. Promotion to captain could be expected after three years of service. To make major was about 8 to 10 years. When I served in the later sixties, 1st lieutenant was about 6 months and captain within two years. Promotion to major came after three years. Career advancement was coming fast and furious and within 90 miles of Vietnam it was all tax free. (The naval forces would float around offshore and then once every ninety days would venture to within the 90 mile tax free zone.) With promotions and medals galore, those guys were like hogs in slop. As you may have correctly surmised I am still disgusted by the whole thing.

You mentioned Iraq. Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney- two draft dodgers and a weekend warrior running a two front war. Yeah, I expected that to turn out well. As far as understanding the Iraqis is concerned, Bush was interviewed prior to the involvement and did not have any realization that there were two different kinds of Muslims, Sunni and Shiite nor the fact that they hated each other. Kurds? Who are they? A bit like going into Northern Ireland during the Troubles thinking that they were all Christians so what is the problem?