Trump, etc. vs SCOTUS, courts

[Loyal Coug1]

Let's see if we can some intelligent discourse here.

So we all know about the US and the three branches of government. Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a question asked to prospective US citizens?

We also know that the R's in Congress are getting uneasy about what appears to be infringement on their turf (tariff's, etc.). Ok, there's that. But now the Supreme Court and many other courts, federal and otherwise, have made rulings against the Administration, specifically about deportations. The Administration (read Trump) are publicly stating that they don't need to follow these rulings. Any judge ruling against the Administration is being threatened with impeachment.

All agree so far?

So my question is who to obey? If/when the Supreme Court is defied, what are their options? They have no power over law enforcement or the military. If say, Kristi Noem follows orders to defy the SCOTUS, what can they do? Have her arrested, and by who? Federal Marshals? If they don't obey the court, are they subject to arrest? What about defying Congress? If they vote to eliminate Canada tariffs for instance, how can they enforce what is supposed to be their domain? If Trump tells Texas to load the Venezuelans on a plane in defiance of the SCOTUS, what are Texas officials, State/Federal whatever, supposed to do and at what cost to them?

Put aside your political leanings for a thread. I don't know these answers. And we are probably going to find out here pretty soon. Quite the conundrum. Intelligent thoughts welcome. The 2 (and growing list of) trolls are welcome to sit this one out.

 

[UberCougars]

No, no agreement on your delusions disguised as “facts”. But, intelligent conversation isn’t what you seek here.

 

[dgibbons]

Let's see if we can some intelligent discourse here.

So we all know about the US and the three branches of government. Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a question asked to prospective US citizens?

We also know that the R's in Congress are getting uneasy about what appears to be infringement on their turf (tariff's, etc.). Ok, there's that. But now the Supreme Court and many other courts, federal and otherwise, have made rulings against the Administration, specifically about deportations. The Administration (read Trump) are publicly stating that they don't need to follow these rulings. Any judge ruling against the Administration is being threatened with impeachment.

All agree so far?

So my question is who to obey? If/when the Supreme Court is defied, what are their options? They have no power over law enforcement or the military. If say, Kristi Noem follows orders to defy the SCOTUS, what can they do? Have her arrested, and by who? Federal Marshals? If they don't obey the court, are they subject to arrest? What about defying Congress? If they vote to eliminate Canada tariffs for instance, how can they enforce what is supposed to be their domain? If Trump tells Texas to load the Venezuelans on a plane in defiance of the SCOTUS, what are Texas officials, State/Federal whatever, supposed to do and at what cost to them?

Put aside your political leanings for a thread. I don't know these answers. And we are probably going to find out here pretty soon. Quite the conundrum. Intelligent thoughts welcome. The 2 (and growing list of) trolls are welcome to sit this one out.

You're involved, so intelligent discourse is questionable.

As far as I know, the Supreme Court has contempt powers to enforce orders just like every other court. For example in McClearly the WA legislature was in contempt for several years over education funding. Perhaps impeachment would be on the table, if that can be construed as a high crime or misdemeanor.

Regarding a disagreement between the executive and legislature, you're not being very clear. With enough votes, Congress can pass laws without Presidential signature. Congress gave tariff power to the President decades ago. So exercising authority delegated to the President or exercising authority set forth in Article II is not "defying Congress". And some areas have not been the subject of Supreme Court ruling, especially where power is shared. For example, the President negotiates and signs treaties. The Senate provides "advice and consent." Congress passed a law during Biden's term that restricts the ability of the US to exit NATO. The constitution does not speak clearly as to exiting treaties.

The fundamental problem is that Congress has abdicated governing in favor of fundraising and grandstanding.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

You're involved, so intelligent discourse is questionable.

As far as I know, the Supreme Court has contempt powers to enforce orders just like every other court. For example in McClearly the WA legislature was in contempt for several years over education funding. Perhaps impeachment would be on the table, if that can be construed as a high crime or misdemeanor.

Regarding a disagreement between the executive and legislature, you're not being very clear. With enough votes, Congress can pass laws without Presidential signature. Congress gave tariff power to the President decades ago. So exercising authority delegated to the President or exercising authority set forth in Article II is not "defying Congress". And some areas have not been the subject of Supreme Court ruling, especially where power is shared. For example, the President negotiates and signs treaties. The Senate provides "advice and consent." Congress passed a law during Biden's term that restricts the ability of the US to exit NATO. The constitution does not speak clearly as to exiting treaties.

The fundamental problem is that Congress has abdicated governing in favor of fundraising and grandstanding.

Ha ha - I'll give you that first line. It did make me chuckle You do have a sense of humor!

On tariffs, I thought Congress had the power to end or overturn tariffs. Random related article below. But what about the SCOTUS and the Prez? You didn't opine on that.

Senate rebukes Trump’s tariffs as some Republicans vote to halt taxes on Canadian imports

The Senate has passed a resolution that would thwart President Donald Trump’s ability to impose tariffs on Canada.

apnews.com

 

[dgibbons]

Ha ha - I'll give you that first line. It did make me chuckle You do have a sense of humor!

On tariffs, I thought Congress had the power to end or overturn tariffs. Random related article below. But what about the SCOTUS and the Prez? You didn't opine on that.

Senate rebukes Trump’s tariffs as some Republicans vote to halt taxes on Canadian imports

The Senate has passed a resolution that would thwart President Donald Trump’s ability to impose tariffs on Canada.

apnews.com

Yes I did.

"The Senate’s legislation has practically no chance of passing the Republican-controlled House and being signed by Trump,"

 

[UberCougars]

Yes I did.

"The Senate’s legislation has practically no chance of passing the Republican-controlled House and being signed by Trump,"

“The Senate’s legislation has practically no chance of passing the Republican-controlled House and being signed by Trump,”

Confirmed. I read the same thing and I drew the exact same conclusion.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Yes I did.

"The Senate’s legislation has practically no chance of passing the Republican-controlled House and being signed by Trump,"

Ok, I read that. But in theory (not reality) both houses could overturn the tariffs and override a Presidential veto?

Still want your take on the SCOTUS/Courts vs Trump angle. I do in fact lend some credence to your thoughts. Seriously.

 

[dgibbons]

Ok, I read that. But in theory (not reality) both houses could overturn the tariffs and override a Presidential veto?

Still want your take on the SCOTUS/Courts vs Trump angle. I do in fact lend some credence to your thoughts. Seriously.

"As far as I know, the Supreme Court has contempt powers to enforce orders just like every other court. For example in McClearly the WA legislature was in contempt for several years over education funding. Perhaps impeachment would be on the table, if that can be construed as a high crime or misdemeanor."

 

[mikalalas]

Let's see if we can some intelligent discourse here.

So we all know about the US and the three branches of government. Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a question asked to prospective US citizens?

We also know that the R's in Congress are getting uneasy about what appears to be infringement on their turf (tariff's, etc.). Ok, there's that. But now the Supreme Court and many other courts, federal and otherwise, have made rulings against the Administration, specifically about deportations. The Administration (read Trump) are publicly stating that they don't need to follow these rulings. Any judge ruling against the Administration is being threatened with impeachment.

All agree so far?

So my question is who to obey? If/when the Supreme Court is defied, what are their options? They have no power over law enforcement or the military. If say, Kristi Noem follows orders to defy the SCOTUS, what can they do? Have her arrested, and by who? Federal Marshals? If they don't obey the court, are they subject to arrest? What about defying Congress? If they vote to eliminate Canada tariffs for instance, how can they enforce what is supposed to be their domain? If Trump tells Texas to load the Venezuelans on a plane in defiance of the SCOTUS, what are Texas officials, State/Federal whatever, supposed to do and at what cost to them?

Put aside your political leanings for a thread. I don't know these answers. And we are probably going to find out here pretty soon. Quite the conundrum. Intelligent thoughts welcome. The 2 (and growing list of) trolls are welcome to sit this one out.

Judges, state, federal, SCOTUS, etc, can make a CONTEMPT of COURT ruling, IF, WHEN Trump refuses to obey the rulings of the SCOTUS, judges.

If judges make a contempt of court ruling against Trump, they the judges can in fact order the arrest of Trump, administration officials etc.

If law enforcement, Justice department, etc, refuses to arrest Trump, administration officials on a contempt of court charge by a judge for refusing to obey a court order, then the judge(s), can in fact order US Marshall, Congress to arrest, censur, impeach, etc, Trump, the president. Then if that does not happen, a judge can then order the National Guard, State Patrol, State police, Washington DC city police to Arrest Trump, the president. Then if that does not happen, the Judge can order a citizen's arrest of Trump, the president to happen. And if that happens, the US citizenry can invoke the 14th amendment, and make a citizen's arrest of Trump, and or start a Civil War in order to Arrest Trump, force Trump out of office, kill Trump the King George Tyrant Felon in Chief of the USA.

Of course NO judge, congressman, law enforcement, citizenry, etc, has the BALLS to do any of that, or all of that, etc, so none of that would happen.

Also according to section 30 clause of Constitution, A convention of the States can be called to remove Trump, if Trump, administration, law enforcement, etc, were to ignore contempt of court arrest orders. But that probably wouldn't happen either.

Also since Texas is the only state that can legally secede from the Union, Texas could threaten to secede from the Union, to try to force the arrest, impeachment, removal, etc, of Trump, in response to if Trump were to continue to defy, disobey the courts, and get a contempt of court arrest charge. But Texas a Conservative, Republican, Maga state, probably wouldn't do that.

The harsh reality, is that Trump is a bloody damn King George Dictator ruling the USA with a Iron Fist, with enough control, support, that NO legal entity within the USA will NOT use any LEGAL means to arrest, discipline, control, remove, etc, Trump.

The only way Trump gets arrested, removed is:

1. His Term in office expiring.

2. Heart Attack, Stroke, etc(I pray for this to happen to Trump)

3. Civil War

That's reality, unless somebody, people grow some balls, and stops being brainwashed, and leaves the Trump Cult, and hold Trump in contempt of court, and arrest him, impeach him, call a convention of the states, secedes from the Union, starts a Civil War, etc.

 

[95coug]

Let's see if we can some intelligent discourse here.

So we all know about the US and the three branches of government. Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is a question asked to prospective US citizens?

We also know that the R's in Congress are getting uneasy about what appears to be infringement on their turf (tariff's, etc.). Ok, there's that. But now the Supreme Court and many other courts, federal and otherwise, have made rulings against the Administration, specifically about deportations. The Administration (read Trump) are publicly stating that they don't need to follow these rulings. Any judge ruling against the Administration is being threatened with impeachment.

All agree so far?

So my question is who to obey? If/when the Supreme Court is defied, what are their options? They have no power over law enforcement or the military. If say, Kristi Noem follows orders to defy the SCOTUS, what can they do? Have her arrested, and by who? Federal Marshals? If they don't obey the court, are they subject to arrest? What about defying Congress? If they vote to eliminate Canada tariffs for instance, how can they enforce what is supposed to be their domain? If Trump tells Texas to load the Venezuelans on a plane in defiance of the SCOTUS, what are Texas officials, State/Federal whatever, supposed to do and at what cost to them?

Put aside your political leanings for a thread. I don't know these answers. And we are probably going to find out here pretty soon. Quite the conundrum. Intelligent thoughts welcome. The 2 (and growing list of) trolls are welcome to sit this one out.

Well, that's a bit of a problem. The judicial branch has no power of enforcement, it only provides interpretation and direction. Historically/Constitutionally, it relies on the executive branch to provide enforcement of its rulings. There really isn't a mechanism for how to address an executive refusing to comply with SCOTUS...because we've really never needed one.

Odds are not good that any executive branch officials will side with the court directives over Trump. Most of them were chosen for their loyalty to him, not their objectivity. He hasn't made that a secret. If one of them decides to defy him, he'll fire them and replace them with someone who will carry out his demands. He's also been on the crusade to purge the military of officers who will question him, and we know that there are few in the legislative branch that have the balls to do so. It's an uncomfortable situation, and there's basically nothing that we can do about it until 2028.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Well, that's a bit of a problem. The judicial branch has no power of enforcement, it only provides interpretation and direction. Historically/Constitutionally, it relies on the executive branch to provide enforcement of its rulings. There really isn't a mechanism for how to address an executive refusing to comply with SCOTUS...because we've really never needed one.

Odds are not good that any executive branch officials will side with the court directives over Trump. Most of them were chosen for their loyalty to him, not their objectivity. He hasn't made that a secret. If one of them decides to defy him, he'll fire them and replace them with someone who will carry out his demands. He's also been on the crusade to purge the military of officers who will question him, and we know that there are few in the legislative branch that have the balls to do so. It's an uncomfortable situation, and there's basically nothing that we can do about it until 2028.

This is really scary if what you describe is true. 3 months in and things are going to hell all over the place. With no signs up stopping.

 

[Coug90]

This is really scary if what you describe is true. 3 months in and things are going to hell all over the place. With no signs up stopping.

It’s always been said that democracy is fragile. Here we are.

 

[UberCougars]

Vewwee, vewwee, scarwee.

Are you shaking? Finding it hard to cope?

Here. Find comfort. Twu democwacy in action.

 

[mikalalas]

Well, that's a bit of a problem. The judicial branch has no power of enforcement, it only provides interpretation and direction. Historically/Constitutionally, it relies on the executive branch to provide enforcement of its rulings. There really isn't a mechanism for how to address an executive refusing to comply with SCOTUS...because we've really never needed one.

Odds are not good that any executive branch officials will side with the court directives over Trump. Most of them were chosen for their loyalty to him, not their objectivity. He hasn't made that a secret. If one of them decides to defy him, he'll fire them and replace them with someone who will carry out his demands. He's also been on the crusade to purge the military of officers who will question him, and we know that there are few in the legislative branch that have the balls to do so. It's an uncomfortable situation, and there's basically nothing that we can do about it until 2028.

There is something that can be done. If the SCOTUS were to rule against Trump, and if the SCOTUS were to charge Trump with Contempt, and order the Arrest of Trump, and if the USA justice department refused to arrest Trump, the SCOTUS could then order the USA Marshall, National Guard, Washington DC police to arrest Trump.

And if that didn't work, the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, would give the SCOTUS the Authority to order a citizen's arrest of Trump, by Civil War, if necessary, in order to enforce the contempt of court arrest of Trump, as the 14th amendment covers any, all situations not enumerated in Constitution.

Basically the 14th amendment would authorize, allow, legalize the SCOTUS being able to ENFORCE a contempt of court arrest charge, IF IF the executive branch went illegal, rogue, insane, etc.

Also the founding fathers in the federalist papers, founding documents, etc, explained that if any of the 3 branches of govt went insane, crazy, rogue, illegal, the other 2 branches of govt could legally assume the powers of the rogue, illegal branch of govt. The founding fathers also said that the citizenry would be authorized by the constitution, Bill of rights, etc, to temporarily overthrow, revolt, rebel, civil war, restore, etc, any illegal part of govt.

So according to that the SCOTUS could legally enforce a contempt of court arrest of Trump, even going as far as having Washington DC police arrest Trump, or Ordering citizens to arrest Trump, or authorizing a Civil War to Arrest Trump, etc.

But that's a Moot point, as nobody has the BALLS to do anything, so nothing can be done, and nothing would be done.

 

[UberCougars]

sure.