We already have our biggest upset of bowl season
- Thread starter ScottHood
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?? Cal s record is 5-7 and their coach is on the hottest seat. Betting odds are that he will be fired.
They don't have the money to fire him. They're probably hoping Dykes takes the Baylor job.
Um....anyone who looked into the possibilities? Mississippi state was always going to get slotted ahead of Cal.
Cal was only getting a bowl if there were 5 or more slots for 5-7 teams. North Texas and Mississippi State were the first two in at 5-7, followed by Texas and northern Illinois, then Cal and ASU.
Coming into this weekend, there were only 4 possible berths for 5-7 teams. South Alabama and Louisiana Lafayette both picked up their 6th win, leaving only 2 spots. So they're really the ones who kept Cal out.
My point is Cal-Berkeley is supposedly a world renowned institution of higher learning. The fact Cal finished behind anybody in team APR, let alone Miss. State, North Texas and Northern Illinois, is probably not going over very well in the Bay Area.
I noticed that and I would agree that it is a source of some embarrassment to Cal but with a couple of caveats. Achieving academic progress is likely easier at the likes of Miss. State than in Berkeley. Cal's APR is still suffering from the last disastrous years of Tedford's reign, not those of Dykes. Like Leach, Dykes has made considerable improvement in this area.
The Bear's humiliation is somewhat akin to that we endured after being listed as the nation's leader in arrests piled up by the football team. Embarrassing? Yes, but more than a little misleading when considering the data used in the compilation.
Dykes' problem is athletic achievement, not academic. Of course, that won't avert a few hearty chuckles and giggles from Palo Alto.
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For football players, Cal has the same recruiting academic standards as 10 of the other 11 Pac-12 schools and most other FBS schools. The difference is the admissions standards for the general undergrad. For athletes, football and basketball players in particular, their academic deficiencies stand out more. The grading curve at Cal is quite a bit higher than at MSU, North Texas and Northern Illinois, where I guess 40% of the student body isn't really college material. Cal needs to move to the Stanford, Notre Dame model, their present system it isn't really fair for their athletes, who are set up to fail.
One would assume that for a school with the academic reputation that Cal has it wouldn't matter who the coach was. You're supposedly recruiting a higher academic profile kid. Smarter, more committed to doing work, blah blah blah.
So the kids at Cal either can't do the work because they're over their heads in the classroom or they're smart enough to do the work but just choose not to.
Maybe they take an APR hit because lots of kids left without their degrees???
Either way, Dykes has and is interviewing all over the country for jobs. He wants out.
"Achieving academic progress is likely easier at the likes of Miss. State than in Berkeley."
Not convinced this is true.
Well, both S and ND are private schools, so they have more latitude than does a public, and to make matters worse, UCB is part of a state-wide system, so tweaking that admissions is even harder. And Brian Kelly (and about 5 of the last 6 Notre Dame Coaches) are on record for despising their system of admissions, as it is allegedly "too tough" to get all the guys they want. Not sure how true that is but they all say it--after they move on or retire!!
I suspect that a turnover in coaching staff leads to an APR hit - lots of kids transferring out, some not getting schollies renewed, etc. Schools do take APR hit when degrees aren't completed, or players transfer out (for whatever reason). I'm sure Leach had an APR issue to dig out of also - as CAL is doing now. If Dykes leaves, they'll face the same with the wave of changes that would happen under new leadership. Fixing the APR for a school takes a series of years to remedy - and continuity at the top of the program (or at least no loss of student athletes).
GO COUGS
That's what I was thinking too. But these are supposedly higher academic kids out of high school. Does Cal still take a hit if they leave and finish their degree elsewhere? For them to be this far down tells me kids are leaving and not finishing/enrolling anywhere else.... Hence, maybe Cal isn't landing the kind of high profile academic kid their university would lead you to believe...
As cougsocal indicated the academic requirements for athletes at Cal are the same as the rest of the Pac 12 save Stanford and I believe UCLA. Cal requires the NCAA minimum. As you pointed out once they get in they still have to compete against the rest of the student body and may be in over their head(s). They probably funnel players into certain degree programs hoping to keep them eligible. Steve Hutinchinson (former Seahawk) had some interesting stories around his recruitment and matriculation from Michigan.
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Actually, guys, things have changed. For a very long time, Cal's admission standards for athletes were the same as the other Pac-12 schools, other than Stanford--Cal made ample use of its "special admissions" slots--but that changed this past year. See this: http://www.mercurynews.com/2015/07/...standards-pose-tough-challenge-for-athletics/. So Cal has had to navigate a change from using the NCAA minimum to having to keep in mind some GPA requirements for the class as a whole. It's not like they are using "normal" Cal admissions requirements with these guys by any means, but the requirements are stricter than all the other schools in the Pac-12 other than Stanford.
I also know from having read some things over the years, and having spoken to some people (I have a Cal grad degree and am about 5% Cal fan and 95% WSU fan), that Cal does the same things to keep athletes eligible as all the other schools do (e.g., other than those football players who really are true student athletes, shove the others into "rocks for jocks" kinds of classes, use of special tutors, etc.). That said, I agree it's easier to keep kids eligible at places like Mississippi State than it is Cal, since Mississippi State is also funneling athletes into special classes, using tutors, and doing all the other stuff they do with football players--let alone the possibility of doing some things that are more "North Carolina-style," if you get my drift--and you can get a degree from Mississippi State if you can fog a mirror.
That's interesting and I wasn't aware they made changes to their requirements for athletes. Thanks for directly calling that out.
That's not necessarily true. They still have to either qualify to get into Cal, or they have to be granted a special admit. Schools generally only have so many "special admits" they are willing to give out, particularly to just one program. How else do you explain Chandler Leniu not getting into Cal, but qualifying at WSU?
You're right about special admits, but my understanding is that historically, the number was sufficient to allow them to let in pretty much anyone they wanted on the football team, and that it's still enough to let in whoever they want subject to the new GPA requirements that apply to the class as a whole.
As I recall with Leniu, the issue was that he hadn't taken a particular class that was required to get into Cal, but wasn't required to get into WSU. (I think Cal required two years of HS foreign language whereas WSU required one year, or something like that.) IIRC, it wasn't an issue of, e.g., Cal requiring a 2.9 GPA to get in and WSU only requiring a 2.5.
As that Mercury News article I posted discussed, Cal actually had lower standards than UCLA when Marshawn Lynch was being recruited. He couldn't get into UCLA but could get into Cal. The article isn't specific as to whether UCLA was going above NCAA minimums on GPA/test scores or whether it was an issue of required HS coursework.
As another thing for everyone to bear in mind here, there's a big difference between (i) minimum requirements to get into a university and (ii) having credentials that would actually get you into that university as a regular student, barring "special factors" in your application.
All UC schools require 3 years of HS foreign language. That is non-negotiable. If you have only 2 years, you go to a Cal State school. If WSU's current requirement is 2 years, then that may well have been the stumbling block at Cal for Leniu. As for getting into Cal or UCLA, the game that is played is the declared major. Trying to get in for an impacted major (almost any branch of engineering, compt sci, business, etc) is tough. But I've had kids in my Sunday School class and/or Scout troop get into UCLA with relatively non-impacted majors (child & family studies; art; etc) and then change majors after they were at the school. I could tell stories. Having known kids who did either, I'd say it is probably harder to get into UCLA or Cal in engineering or computer science than to get a service academy appointment in those majors. And that is a reflection on the numbers of kids applying, not relative capability, test scores, etc. Again, I could tell stories.
Do you think Marshawn Lynch would have made it into Berkeley without his ability to play football?
If someone leaves school even in good standing and graduates from a different school the NCAA is supposed to adjust to account for that and not penalize the first school.
Each school has an academic oversight committee for special admits, that looks at each kid's transcript, primarily. They decide whether a kid has successfully completed the necessary course work for admission. Most often a kid is denied when a critical class is denied credit. WSU has lost and gained Pac-12 kids because one Pac-12 school gives credit to a class when another does not. Think of it this way. Does Johnny's correspondence health class qualify as a life science course? If the committee says no, he can be denied, even though the NCAA minimum is met.
i forgot about that foreign language requirement (i used to teach high school in pasadena in a different life). how pissed would you be if you were a coach at cal or ucla (or uc davis for that matter) and the only thing keeping you from getting a kid you want is that he didn't get that extra year of german in high school? such a weird place to draw a line.
I dunno if he would have made it in or not. I don't know what his HS gpa and test scores were and I wouldn't assume that he had low marks.
With the academic requirements there comes a time when the word it out. If you want to go to school at certain universities you MUST have certain things.
It reminds me of JC prospects. Almost 20 years now guys have known that you elevate your stock by graduating in December. Guys know that they've gotta have the work done. If the kid isn't taking care of his academic business at the JC, is he really gonna get it done at your 4 year university?
Thanks for the info 425. You are more versed on this subject than I.
As for Leniu, if that's the case, that kind of seems like an indictment on the coaches who recruited him to Cal. I get taking a chance on a kid who doesn't end up with the test score he needs, but simply not knowing how many foreign language credits he has vs what's required? Seems like the basic amount of checking would uncover that, and you wouldn't have to waste resources, or 1 of your 25 LOIs on a guy that clearly won't qualify.
Edit to add: I suppose he could have flunked his final foreign language class.
Thanks, but honestly, I just know a little bit about certain aspects. Most of them are just things I've heard from guys who know a guy in the athletic department, etc. ... that kind of information often is right, but not always. There could be more substantive limits on special admits than I'm aware of. I've just always heard that they're numerous enough to get kids in who meet NCAA standards (but who otherwise would have no prayer of actually getting in), but they can't be used as a way to get around having taken specific coursework required by a school.
In Leniu's case, at least according to an (apparently respected and usually well-informed) Cal fan on a message board, the staff was very clear with him as to the required coursework he had to complete, but he still dropped a class that he needed to get into Cal: http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?84651-Atoe-and-Leniu&p=842326619#post842326619. Seems like he could have dropped it in the final semester of his senior year (as I'm assuming must have been the case) and the staff couldn't really do much about it.
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