Who benefits?

[etowncoug]

Mack Brown at UT with Vince Young at QB lost to Bill Doba with road scholars Timm Rosenbach and Mike Levenseller calling plays (punts).

Don't question the narrative.

The obvious response is why didn't make Brown implement a perfect version of the Air Raid while at Texas. He had access to some of the nation's best talent, why not use a scheme that can be unstoppable with some minor tweaks?

 

[etowncoug]

ehhhhh, a cutter isn't a "fastball" in the sense most people think of fastballs. Its got pretty good break, which is what made Rivera virtually unhittable at times. And the more I think about this analogy, the whole thing doesn't work. A good fastball pitcher has good ball placement as well, else he's a bad fastball pitcher. So whether you're talking baseball or football, either you're good or you're not. How's that?

Rivera's placement was on point but each pitch did the same thing. It's a good analogy to the Leach Air Raid. If you plan for the Air Raid all year, like UW, you are probably going to be able to stop it. But it's going to result in losses elsewhere on your schedule because you aren't focused on the task at hand. We never fooled anyone, but we spent more time learning how to execute than our opponents did at stopping us.

 

[spongeworthy12]

I think its gonna be a battle between Coop and Cruz. Im curious to see which kid gets WSU into the right play call.

My money is on Cruz

 

[spongeworthy12]

Cal and uw both know how to shut down Leach. It’s like watching the World Series of Poker... some guys know exactly what their opponents hand is and exactly what they will and wont do.

I agree. These are two games I am really looking to see how Rolo plays them...at least after we have the benefit of spring ball and the players know the system.

 

[425cougfan]

Rivera's placement was on point but each pitch did the same thing. It's a good analogy to the Leach Air Raid. If you plan for the Air Raid all year, like UW, you are probably going to be able to stop it. But it's going to result in losses elsewhere on your schedule because you aren't focused on the task at hand. We never fooled anyone, but we spent more time learning how to execute than our opponents did at stopping us.

EVERYONE KNOWS THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PITCH. YOU HAVE TO MIX IT UP MORE THAN THE PERIODIC FOUR-SEAMER TO GO WITH THE CUTTER. THAT GUY IS A MINOR LEAGUER. I DON'T CARE IF HE GETS SOME GUYS OUT. IF YOU WANT TO BE A PITCHER, YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO PITCH. WATCH THE HITTER'S TENDENCIES AND MIX IT UP. I COACHED LITTLE LEAGUE 20 YEARS AGO AND KNOW MORE THAN THIS MINOR LEAGUER DOES. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN IF HE IS A CENTIMILLIONAIRE AND IN THE HALL OF FAME. EDGAR MARTINEZ OWNED THE GUY, PROVING ME RIGHT. IF HE REALLY KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING, HE'D GET EDGAR MARTINEZ OUT.

Remind you of anyone?

 

[etowncoug]

EVERYONE KNOWS THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PITCH. YOU HAVE TO MIX IT UP MORE THAN THE PERIODIC FOUR-SEAMER TO GO WITH THE CUTTER. THAT GUY IS A MINOR LEAGUER. I DON'T CARE IF HE GETS SOME GUYS OUT. IF YOU WANT TO BE A PITCHER, YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO PITCH. WATCH THE HITTER'S TENDENCIES AND MIX IT UP. I COACHED LITTLE LEAGUE 20 YEARS AGO AND KNOW MORE THAN THIS MINOR LEAGUER DOES. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN IF HE IS A CENTIMILLIONAIRE AND IN THE HALL OF FAME. EDGAR MARTINEZ OWNED THE GUY, PROVING ME RIGHT. IF HE REALLY KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING, HE'D GET EDGAR MARTINEZ OUT.

Remind you of anyone?

Yup. Don't forget Luis Gonzalez in the 2001 WS or some of the other high profile games he got hit in. There is a certain poster who would say Rivera was a JC pitcher.

 

[Coug90]

ehhhhh, a cutter isn't a "fastball" in the sense most people think of fastballs. Its got pretty good break, which is what made Rivera virtually unhittable at times. And the more I think about this analogy, the whole thing doesn't work. A good fastball pitcher has good ball placement as well, else he's a bad fastball pitcher. So whether you're talking baseball or football, either you're good or you're not. How's that?

Yup. Did he throw it to the same spot every time? Did the catcher tip off the batter where the pitch was headed? More important probably than the actual pitch itself. Plenty of pitchers live on location. Jamie Moyer was a master, couldn’t top 87 on the gun but painted the corners all day.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Throwing the same pitch, over and over again, whether placed well or not is going to get you teed off.

If Rolo comes out running and gunning the league has no answer. He wins the AC. Cause he mixed his pitches.

 

[etowncoug]

Throwing the same pitch, over and over again, whether placed well or not is going to get you teed off.

The only unanimous hall of famer in baseball history disagrees with you.

 

[BiggsCoug]

The only unanimous hall of famer in baseball history disagrees with you.

Sure. Can you name two? How bout 3? Or 4?

I mean, if your counter point was so strong surely you’d have a lengthy list of guys that only threw fastballs and won Cy Young’s right??? 100 years of baseball to work with and you only have 1 guy????

 

[etowncoug]

Sure. Can you name two? How bout 3? Or 4?

I mean, if your counter point was so strong surely you’d have a lengthy list of guys that only threw fastballs and won Cy Young’s right??? 100 years of baseball to work with and you only have 1 guy????

The is only one guy who has been a unanimous selection to the Hall of Fame in baseball history. Plenty of knuckleballers have had long and successful careers throwing only one pitch too.

Being able to execute a simple game plan at a high level will beat a complicated game plan with average execution. The simplicity you complain about is the genius behind the Air Raid. It's taken a team which consistently recruits in the bottom third of the conference in talent and produced a top 10 offense. If Leach was such a bad coach, why in the world is he able to win more than he loses despite facing a clear talent disparity?

 

[BiggsCoug]

The is only one guy who has been a unanimous selection to the Hall of Fame in baseball history. Plenty of knuckleballers have had long and successful careers throwing only one pitch too.

Being able to execute a simple game plan at a high level will beat a complicated game plan with average execution. The simplicity you complain about is the genius behind the Air Raid. It's taken a team which consistently recruits in the bottom third of the conference in talent and produced a top 10 offense. If Leach was such a bad coach, why in the world is he able to win more than he loses despite facing a clear talent disparity?[/QUOTE

Give me the names of these knuckleballers. Surely in over 100 years of baseball you have a laundry list of these players with only 1 pitch that are crushing teams???? Ya dont? It’s cause youre wrong and your argument sucks.

The genius of the AR is manipulating every team on the schedule to play the same front/defense. Your qb isnt prepping for 43, 34, 42, etc. He will see rush 3 drop 8 every week.

The idiocy of the AR is the lack of variables in play calling. The defense doesnt have to commit any numbers or schemes to defending the run game. Your guru coach is running 4 WRs into 8 DBs. The only way out was to throw it to the back. So now your big time back gets crap for carries and your big time passing game is essentially a swing pass offense.

WSU’s offense last year had... a back that will likely be in NFL camp, a couple WRs that will likely be in NFL camp, a couple OL that will likely be in NFL camp and the QB that will prob get a shot too. So 6 guys likely NFL bound and the offense could only muster 13, 13, 20 and 21 in 4 losses. Two more losses were special teams blunders. But yeah, great coaching??? With losses to Portland State and Eastern Washington??? I dont think WSU’s talent is clearly worse. I think the coaching coat WSU games last year, not the talent.

I think Leach’s offense gives bad DCs a hard time. Other guys, Cal and uw, laugh at him.

His last year at WSU he mailed it in. We were likely the last school to see what he could do. I think he gets waxed in the SEC and is run out of MSU in short order. OR! He runs the ball and gives his teams a chance by being a better play caller and mixing his pitches.

 

[425cougfan]

Funny thing is, I'd also prefer Leach could have done a little bit more to disguise what he was doing, to mix it up, to have a bigger and more varied set of run plays, etc.

So maybe more like 80% ruthless execution and repetition, but 20% time and mental effort devoted to those other things. I think that 20% could have paid off much more than any loss in execution or focus that would have resulted.

I'll also grant this does, in fact, match with what someone like Mack Brown now is doing and what some of these modified Air Raid schemes have been trying to do.

I disagree with Biggs and anyone else contending that Leach was a JV coach, had no merit to his approach, etc. That's ridiculous. Not only did Leach have some ways to create deception (subject to some ways that could be improved), there is clear validity to what he does, and his approach reflects a reasoned choice, not just stubbornness and a lack of flexibility. He focuses on ruthless repetition and execution. It's proven to "work" at the level of having players with less talent than their opponents generally able to move the ball effectively.

If it was easy to stop the Air Raid because everyone knew what was coming, then all the teams would do it, not just the teams that happen to have very good defenses and defense-minded coaches like Cal, Utah, and UW have had in recent years. At least UW, as we know, also dedicated a lot of time to stopping the offense, potentially using time they could have used on other things.

The Leach approach was what it was for us. Not unstoppable, but highly effective and able to take the program to a level rarely, if ever, seen. Impressive when factoring in recruiting and other challenges, especially.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

I think I can boil this whole thread down as follows:

1.) CML valued execution over almost everything else, and felt that you didn't need to fake them out if you could execute consistently.
2.) In the same way, he valued simplicity because he felt that it increased the odds of good execution.
3.) CML felt that the QB should decide if a run was required at the LOS, and that the QB would have to audibly check into a run play. The pass was always the automatic default.
4.) CML valued accuracy above all else in a QB. Mobility was not needed, or even encouraged.
5.) Because the 4 above things were cast in concrete, a DC could count on the idea that if he showed 6 in the box there would be a pass play. Even if 3 of them dropped into a zone, every play, for the entire game. Only if an audible was called was there any danger of a run, and we apparently did not have a quick snap run anywhere on the 3 x 5 card that was our play book. We also apparently had no way to call a run of any sort prior to everyone being on the LOS.
6.) This might sound like it was simple to defend, but it was not. Every D could not consistently stop the Air Raid. A defense would have to be deep with good CB's to make it work, because probably at least 3 would need to be on the field at any given time. Every safety would have to be competent at covering a WR. And most of the guys playing LB would have to move like a safety. The D would also have to have a 3 man rush that would get at least some pressure on the QB within 4 seconds or so, because eventually even 8 guys in coverage would break down or lose containment of the RB. In the PAC there were never more than 2 or 3 teams in a given season that could pull this off. It was unfortunate that the UW was usually one of those teams.
7.) Mike Leach was a great choice at the time and he could have had occasional "Minshew Seasons" mixed in with a steady diet of 7-8 wins, assuming sane scheduling. He felt the gap between what he could do and consistent 10-11 win seasons was just talent. Many of us felt that unwillingness to take what the D was giving was a bigger deal than any O talent disparity, as well as the need for Mike to have the right DC.
8.) I wish he had stayed, but I think Rolo was a good choice since he left. I am looking forward to football when we can eventually play.

 

[fingerdisco]

I think I can boil this whole thread down as follows:

1.) CML valued execution over almost everything else, and felt that you didn't need to fake them out if you could execute consistently.
2.) In the same way, he valued simplicity because he felt that it increased the odds of good execution.
3.) CML felt that the QB should decide if a run was required at the LOS, and that the QB would have to audibly check into a run play. The pass was always the automatic default.
4.) CML valued accuracy above all else in a QB. Mobility was not needed, or even encouraged.
5.) Because the 4 above things were cast in concrete, a DC could count on the idea that if he showed 6 in the box there would be a pass play. Even if 3 of them dropped into a zone, every play, for the entire game. Only if an audible was called was there any danger of a run, and we apparently did not have a quick snap run anywhere on the 3 x 5 card that was our play book. We also apparently had no way to call a run of any sort prior to everyone being on the LOS.
6.) This might sound like it was simple to defend, but it was not. Every D could not consistently stop the Air Raid. A defense would have to be deep with good CB's to make it work, because probably at least 3 would need to be on the field at any given time. Every safety would have to be competent at covering a WR. And most of the guys playing LB would have to move like a safety. The D would also have to have a 3 man rush that would get at least some pressure on the QB within 4 seconds or so, because eventually even 8 guys in coverage would break down or lose containment of the RB. In the PAC there were never more than 2 or 3 teams in a given season that could pull this off. It was unfortunate that the UW was usually one of those teams.
7.) Mike Leach was a great choice at the time and he could have had occasional "Minshew Seasons" mixed in with a steady diet of 7-8 wins, assuming sane scheduling. He felt the gap between what he could do and consistent 10-11 win seasons was just talent. Many of us felt that unwillingness to take what the D was giving was a bigger deal than any O talent disparity, as well as the need for Mike to have the right DC.
8.) I wish he had stayed, but I think Rolo was a good choice since he left. I am looking forward to football when we can eventually play.

I think that about captures it, and you didn’t even have to resort to ALLCAPS to do it.

One of the things that made me want to put my boot through the TV was In the Crapple Cup when the Ewe would put two men on the DL spaced probably 10 yards wide with nary a defender in the same time zone as the QB, and we’d still throw it. Plays like that made every criticism by Lake of our offense more than deserved.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I think that about captures it, and you didn’t even have to resort to ALLCAPS to do it.

One of the things that made me want to put my boot through the TV was In the Crapple Cup when the Ewe would put two men on the DL spaced probably 10 yards wide with nary a defender in the same time zone as the QB, and we’d still throw it. Plays like that made every criticism by Lake of our offense more than deserved.

Hence, play calling was an issue.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I think I can boil this whole thread down as follows:

1.) CML valued execution over almost everything else, and felt that you didn't need to fake them out if you could execute consistently.
2.) In the same way, he valued simplicity because he felt that it increased the odds of good execution.
3.) CML felt that the QB should decide if a run was required at the LOS, and that the QB would have to audibly check into a run play. The pass was always the automatic default.
4.) CML valued accuracy above all else in a QB. Mobility was not needed, or even encouraged.
5.) Because the 4 above things were cast in concrete, a DC could count on the idea that if he showed 6 in the box there would be a pass play. Even if 3 of them dropped into a zone, every play, for the entire game. Only if an audible was called was there any danger of a run, and we apparently did not have a quick snap run anywhere on the 3 x 5 card that was our play book. We also apparently had no way to call a run of any sort prior to everyone being on the LOS.
6.) This might sound like it was simple to defend, but it was not. Every D could not consistently stop the Air Raid. A defense would have to be deep with good CB's to make it work, because probably at least 3 would need to be on the field at any given time. Every safety would have to be competent at covering a WR. And most of the guys playing LB would have to move like a safety. The D would also have to have a 3 man rush that would get at least some pressure on the QB within 4 seconds or so, because eventually even 8 guys in coverage would break down or lose containment of the RB. In the PAC there were never more than 2 or 3 teams in a given season that could pull this off. It was unfortunate that the UW was usually one of those teams.
7.) Mike Leach was a great choice at the time and he could have had occasional "Minshew Seasons" mixed in with a steady diet of 7-8 wins, assuming sane scheduling. He felt the gap between what he could do and consistent 10-11 win seasons was just talent. Many of us felt that unwillingness to take what the D was giving was a bigger deal than any O talent disparity, as well as the need for Mike to have the right DC.
8.) I wish he had stayed, but I think Rolo was a good choice since he left. I am looking forward to football when we can eventually play.

But... but you didn't say a single word about Mo Rivera...

 

[Mr-Robinson]

Don't question the narrative.

The obvious response is why didn't make Brown implement a perfect version of the Air Raid while at Texas. He had access to some of the nation's best talent, why not use a scheme that can be unstoppable with some minor tweaks?

exactly homie

 

[wowow]

Cam sucks