Yes/No: Did RoLo inherit a better roster than Leach at WSU and ...

[etowncoug]

No, the part about Doba being fine should tell you something. He was in over his head at one of the most difficult jobs in the country. Give him the head job at a place like Boise St or UCLA and he'd have a much better record. He reminds me of Larry Coker in some ways.

Regardless, Doba inherited enough talent to go 10-3 his first season which was something of an overachievement. I don't think a lot of other coaches have that much success. If he'd been able to keep a pipeline of talent headed to Pullman, Doba wins another game or two a year and the program never hits the lost decade. Unfortunately, while he was one of our better coaches at game planning he wasn't cut out for recruiting.

You just beat around the bush and said that Doba wasn't a good head coach. He's a nice guy and people don't want to take a dump on him. I get that and it's fine. Regardless, if his recruiting prowess wasn't up to snuff, was it right to push him out?

For 8 years, I was told that Leach was building a winning culture and a talent base that was going to put WSU in bowl games every year even if we didn't have the talent to win a conference championship every year (or ever apparently). We go 11-2 and everyone is excited for the future. We go from "let's hope we make a bowl game" to "anything less than 7 wins is a failure". We go 6-7 and he leaves, and suddenly, that 8 years of excitement about Leach is just a bunch of hot air BS and we were living a lie?

Up above, I was asked "what players on the WSU defense would start somewhere else?". I was thinking about that and it's not like we had tons of NFL talent on defense when we were good, so how relevant is that question? Since 2015, we've had a total of three defensive players drafted. Take a look at our 2015 depth chart and show me the guys on the pre-season depth chart that we "knew" would start for other teams. For the record, here is the list of starters:

E: Paulo, Sr (never started before 2015)
NT: Barber, Jr (one start, 7 career tackles before 2015)
T: Vaeao, Sr (we knew he was good)
RUSH: McClennan, Sr (JC transfer with 21 tackes in 2014)
WIL: Allison, Sr (he was the 2015 version of Jahad Woods)
MIKE: Pelleur, So (he was promising as a freshman in 2014)
N: Dotson, So (4 career tackles prior to 2015)
CB: Molton, Fr (no experience)
FS: Luani, Jr (juco transfer that year, no D1 experience, was highly rated though)
SS: Taliulu, Sr (experienced player)
CB: White, So (promising as a redshirt freshman in 2014)

This years team

DE: Kwete, So (promising as a freshman with 20 tackles)
NT: Hobbs, Jr (13 tackles, 2 sacks and 5.5 tackles for loss in 2019)
T: Rodgers III, Sr (27 tackles, 4 sacks and 6 TFL in 2019)
RUSH: Taylor III, Jr (decent experience and solid player)
WIL: Woods, Jr (concrete shoes in terms of speed but well regarded)
MIKE: Rogers, Sr (lots of experience)
N: Brown, So or Marsh, Jr (Brown showed a lot of promise late in the season as a freshman)
CB: Langford, Jr (ok as a juco transfer in 2019, well regarded as a juco)
FS: Davis, Jr (juco transfer who played a limited role in 2019, definite question mark)
SS: Thomas, Sr (4 Ints in 2019, solid player)
CB: Hicks III, Sr (tied for team lead with 5 pass breakups, fairly experienced)

When you look at the two teams, that 2015 squad had three players heading into the season that we knew would be good and were experienced, two guys that looked good as freshmen and a promising juco transfer in Luani. There was no reason to expect that defense to be 100 points better than the prior year's defense. We had four guys on that team that hadn't made any real contributions prior to that season (Barber, Paulo, Molton and Dotson). Now, to be fair, that 2015 team had Ekuale, Mata'afa (future stud), Luvu and Dale in the depth chart that ended up being good players, but there was no reason to expect them to be good prior to 2015. Ekuale is the only one that had shown anything prior.

This year, we have nine upperclassmen starting and a lot of guys who've been out there and have tape to learn from. Woods, Thomas and Rodgers have already received preseason recognition from Athlons. You guys can choose to take a dump on these players and assume that they are a lost cause, but I see a group that needed better leadership more than anything else. You can make the argument that the unknowns about 2015 were more reassuring because that meant that we didn't have preset expectations about those players, but when it comes down to it, you'd be lying if you claim that you had looked at our defense in June 2015 and said, "we are going to contending for the Pac-12 North with these guys". We have a lot of young guys that we've never seen that we have no way to know where they'll be in the future.

You have to choose what type of fan that you want to be. I get that you don't want to set up ridiculous expectations and then be angry if we fail to meet them in Rolovich's first year, but I remember when we had fans yelling, "12-0 until it's not!" not that long ago. It's ok to be excited about the team. Being a fan is to be fanatical and unrealistically optimistic. I'm not blown away by Leach's recruiting, but I think coaching and schedule are just as important as the jimmy's and joes and I think we can be ok this year with what we've got.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

No, the part about Doba being fine should tell you something. He was in over his head at one of the most difficult jobs in the country. Give him the head job at a place like Boise St or UCLA and he'd have a much better record. He reminds me of Larry Coker in some ways.

Regardless, Doba inherited enough talent to go 10-3 his first season which was something of an overachievement. I don't think a lot of other coaches have that much success. If he'd been able to keep a pipeline of talent headed to Pullman, Doba wins another game or two a year and the program never hits the lost decade. Unfortunately, while he was one of our better coaches at game planning he wasn't cut out for recruiting.

I agree with your take 100%. I guess the question now is whether or not Leach was Doba on steroids and that 2019 exposed his recruiting failures or if he actually built something but coaching attrition left us with a defense without an identity.

 

[95coug]

No, the part about Doba being fine should tell you something. He was in over his head at one of the most difficult jobs in the country. Give him the head job at a place like Boise St or UCLA and he'd have a much better record. He reminds me of Larry Coker in some ways.

Regardless, Doba inherited enough talent to go 10-3 his first season which was something of an overachievement. I don't think a lot of other coaches have that much success. If he'd been able to keep a pipeline of talent headed to Pullman, Doba wins another game or two a year and the program never hits the lost decade. Unfortunately, while he was one of our better coaches at game planning he wasn't cut out for recruiting.

This has been mentioned most times this topic has come up over the last decade, but another significant factor was Doba's staff. I'm fairly sure that if Price's wife had gotten sick in 1995, Doba and the staff would have stepped up to cover his responsibilities. But when Doba's wife got sick, his staff didn't. The staff carries significant responsibility in recruiting, and when they can't be relied on to do their jobs without being prodded constantly, everything falls apart. That's what happened under Doba.

I think Leach also had a drop-off from his assistants, probably partially due to turnover in the staff. He wasn't the strong recruiter HC who was going to be able to make up for that.

To consistently be successful at WSU, I think any staff is going to have to be good recruiters from top to bottom, with a couple of very good recruiters among the assistants. They're also going to have to be good coaches, because we're never going to consistently have top 20 classes. I don't think we've ever had a staff that can claim to be both...and if we did, it would be very difficult to keep it in place.

 

[CougEd]

This has been mentioned most times this topic has come up over the last decade, but another significant factor was Doba's staff. I'm fairly sure that if Price's wife had gotten sick in 1995, Doba and the staff would have stepped up to cover his responsibilities. But when Doba's wife got sick, his staff didn't. The staff carries significant responsibility in recruiting, and when they can't be relied on to do their jobs without being prodded constantly, everything falls apart. That's what happened under Doba.

I think Leach also had a drop-off from his assistants, probably partially due to turnover in the staff. He wasn't the strong recruiter HC who was going to be able to make up for that.

To consistently be successful at WSU, I think any staff is going to have to be good recruiters from top to bottom, with a couple of very good recruiters among the assistants. They're also going to have to be good coaches, because we're never going to consistently have top 20 classes. I don't think we've ever had a staff that can claim to be both...and if we did, it would be very difficult to keep it in place.

95...who was going to "step up"? Levy? He had one specific territory and was not the most dynamic recruiter. Rosie? Not sure he could sell water in a dessert. Steve B? Turned out not to be a very good recruiter. Akey? Greene? The best recruiter was Walker. Who was going to close these kids? Doba?
Everyone thought we needed WSU grads to sell WSU, and it turned out they were the worst sales people.

 

[CougEd]

The thing that I find most fascinating about this entire thread is the disconnect between the perception of Leach as a program builder and all of this talk about how freaking terrible our team is going to be this year. Great coaches and program builders don't have teams that are compared to a Paul Wulff roster six months after they left.

If our team is really as bad as you guys think it is, Leach is gonna get fuggin' stomped in the SEC and he's more of a gimmick coach than anything else. Price left Doba with a roster that competed for the Rose Bowl in 2003 and you guys feel like Leach left us with a 4-8 squad? Says a lot about the man's "program building".

Again, not sure how to say this any other way...he left a program 3-6 in conference and needed a TD with no time remaining to beat OSU to get the 3 wins.

 

[CougEd]

You just beat around the bush and said that Doba wasn't a good head coach. He's a nice guy and people don't want to take a dump on him. I get that and it's fine. Regardless, if his recruiting prowess wasn't up to snuff, was it right to push him out?

For 8 years, I was told that Leach was building a winning culture and a talent base that was going to put WSU in bowl games every year even if we didn't have the talent to win a conference championship every year (or ever apparently). We go 11-2 and everyone is excited for the future. We go from "let's hope we make a bowl game" to "anything less than 7 wins is a failure". We go 6-7 and he leaves, and suddenly, that 8 years of excitement about Leach is just a bunch of hot air BS and we were living a lie?

Up above, I was asked "what players on the WSU defense would start somewhere else?". I was thinking about that and it's not like we had tons of NFL talent on defense when we were good, so how relevant is that question? Since 2015, we've had a total of three defensive players drafted. Take a look at our 2015 depth chart and show me the guys on the pre-season depth chart that we "knew" would start for other teams. For the record, here is the list of starters:

E: Paulo, Sr (never started before 2015)
NT: Barber, Jr (one start, 7 career tackles before 2015)
T: Vaeao, Sr (we knew he was good)
RUSH: McClennan, Sr (JC transfer with 21 tackes in 2014)
WIL: Allison, Sr (he was the 2015 version of Jahad Woods)
MIKE: Pelleur, So (he was promising as a freshman in 2014)
N: Dotson, So (4 career tackles prior to 2015)
CB: Molton, Fr (no experience)
FS: Luani, Jr (juco transfer that year, no D1 experience, was highly rated though)
SS: Taliulu, Sr (experienced player)
CB: White, So (promising as a redshirt freshman in 2014)

This years team

DE: Kwete, So (promising as a freshman with 20 tackles)
NT: Hobbs, Jr (13 tackles, 2 sacks and 5.5 tackles for loss in 2019)
T: Rodgers III, Sr (27 tackles, 4 sacks and 6 TFL in 2019)
RUSH: Taylor III, Jr (decent experience and solid player)
WIL: Woods, Jr (concrete shoes in terms of speed but well regarded)
MIKE: Rogers, Sr (lots of experience)
N: Brown, So or Marsh, Jr (Brown showed a lot of promise late in the season as a freshman)
CB: Langford, Jr (ok as a juco transfer in 2019, well regarded as a juco)
FS: Davis, Jr (juco transfer who played a limited role in 2019, definite question mark)
SS: Thomas, Sr (4 Ints in 2019, solid player)
CB: Hicks III, Sr (tied for team lead with 5 pass breakups, fairly experienced)

When you look at the two teams, that 2015 squad had three players heading into the season that we knew would be good and were experienced, two guys that looked good as freshmen and a promising juco transfer in Luani. There was no reason to expect that defense to be 100 points better than the prior year's defense. We had four guys on that team that hadn't made any real contributions prior to that season (Barber, Paulo, Molton and Dotson). Now, to be fair, that 2015 team had Ekuale, Mata'afa (future stud), Luvu and Dale in the depth chart that ended up being good players, but there was no reason to expect them to be good prior to 2015. Ekuale is the only one that had shown anything prior.

This year, we have nine upperclassmen starting and a lot of guys who've been out there and have tape to learn from. Woods, Thomas and Rodgers have already received preseason recognition from Athlons. You guys can choose to take a dump on these players and assume that they are a lost cause, but I see a group that needed better leadership more than anything else. You can make the argument that the unknowns about 2015 were more reassuring because that meant that we didn't have preset expectations about those players, but when it comes down to it, you'd be lying if you claim that you had looked at our defense in June 2015 and said, "we are going to contending for the Pac-12 North with these guys". We have a lot of young guys that we've never seen that we have no way to know where they'll be in the future.

You have to choose what type of fan that you want to be. I get that you don't want to set up ridiculous expectations and then be angry if we fail to meet them in Rolovich's first year, but I remember when we had fans yelling, "12-0 until it's not!" not that long ago. It's ok to be excited about the team. Being a fan is to be fanatical and unrealistically optimistic. I'm not blown away by Leach's recruiting, but I think coaching and schedule are just as important as the jimmy's and joes and I think we can be ok this year with what we've got.

Flat, here is what I would add and it goes to the Minshew "factor". In 15 falk had to lead WSU down field against Rutgers who lost all four DB's to score the winning TD with 15 seconds left. They had to rally and score 21 points in 4th to beat ASU at home, and they had to rally and score a game tying TD against Oregon with less than 10 seconds left in the game. And if I recall correctly Oregon played with their back up QB.

So they lived on the edge and relied on their offense to make plays coming down the stretch . So is the next QB Minshew and Falk, or Gordon and Halliday?

 

[PeteTheChop]

Again, not sure how to say this any other way...he left a program 3-6 in conference and needed a TD with no time remaining to beat OSU to get the 3 wins.

Now try this approach Eddie ...

The 2019 Cougs were literally one play away from wins over UCLA and ASU and UO and being "in the hunt" yet again for the P12-N championship despite the freakishly rare in-season departure of a coordinator.

You've been inducted into the CougZone Hall of Fame for a reason, but why do you always seem to be "Mr. Glass Half Empty Guy" when it comes to Mike Leach's legacy and accomplishments at Ol' Wazzu.

 

[CougEd]

Now try this approach Eddie ...

The 2019 Cougs were literally one play away from wins over UCLA and ASU and UO and being "in the hunt" yet again for the P12-N championship despite the freakishly rare in-season departure of a coordinator.

You've been inducted into the CougZone Hall of Fame for a reason, but why do you always seem to be "Mr. Glass Half Empty Guy" when it comes to Mike Leach's legacy and accomplishments at Ol' Wazzu.

"Petey", ever hear the caveat about gold and stocks, that past performance doesn't guarantee future results?

What Leach did at WSU is not minimized by what I think will happen in 20. He is a great coach, did more with less, which is something WSU always needs. Doba was left with a situation that Gerry Faust could have had a winning record in year one.

So being one play away in those games tell me you think Cooper or Cruz is as good or better than Gordon, and that they will make those plays when needed.

Trust me, Leach's legacy is set at WSU. He is a great coach. Great coaches leave. The new coach is not chalked full of talent on the defensive side of the ball, (not like 2003), and there was a learning curve for Dennis and there was a learning curve for Leach, and there will be one for Rolo as well.

 

[PeteTheChop]

"Petey", ever hear the caveat about gold and stocks ...

OK thanks Coug-Ed and my apologies for mis-interpreting your commentary.

CML's time in Pullman was a blessing and a big step forward in making WSU a perennial championship contender in the Pac-12.

Many of us wish he could've retired in Pullman and maybe Schultzie and Co. could've named the new IPF in his honor or something like that.

 

[CougEd]

OK thanks Coug-Ed and my apologies for mis-interpreting your commentary.

CML's time in Pullman was a blessing and a big step forward in making WSU a perennial championship contender in the Pac-12.

Many of us wish he could've retired in Pullman and maybe Schultzie and Co. could've named the new IPF in his honor or something like that.

I have now clarified my position regarding Leach three or four times to you.

I wish Leach would have stayed in Pullman and retired too. He didn't. It does not detract from what he did and should have something named after him.

I have stated this no 6 times or more, I do wish he got and took the Tennessee job. He was destined to leave anyway, and had his name mentioned by his friend Bruce Feldman for various jobs that came up, and he got a nudge up in salary every time. But if he left for the Tennessee job he would have left a deeper team and he would have gone to a better program. Which would have been a won for WSU and a win for him.

 

[PeteTheChop]

I have now clarified my position regarding Leach three or four times to you.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, sir

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Flat, here is what I would add and it goes to the Minshew "factor". In 15 falk had to lead WSU down field against Rutgers who lost all four DB's to score the winning TD with 15 seconds left. They had to rally and score 21 points in 4th to beat ASU at home, and they had to rally and score a game tying TD against Oregon with less than 10 seconds left in the game. And if I recall correctly Oregon played with their back up QB.

So they lived on the edge and relied on their offense to make plays coming down the stretch . So is the next QB Minshew and Falk, or Gordon and Halliday?

We obviously don't know how Cooper or Cruz will play this year and anything we say is a blind guess. The thing that I like about both of those guys when compared to Gordon or Halliday is that they were both pretty mobile in high school. Frankly, Cooper scares me a little because he was a little Manziel-like at times. However, he's had two full years to mature and settle down. We'll see how it shakes out and being forced to learn a new system hurts, but I don't have any reason to assume that they are going to suck.

 

[Wazzubrooz]

There can really be no question on this. Of course Leach upgraded the talent across the board while he was here. When Leach arrived, WSU had one of the least talented teams in all of big boy football.... he had squat and left the program in decent standing.