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You know why we've won two in a row, right?

Curious how Tylenol was developed using fetal stems cells when it was developed 80 years prior to the the 1963 stem cell line in question.

You do realize that the Tylenol that is sold today is not exactly the same Tylenol that was sold originally? Also, if you look up Tylenol on the internet, you would know that it was actually introduced as a brand in 1955. Just because acetaminophen was discovered long before that doesn't mean that it wasn't tested at all in the time before Tylenol was released for sale. And given the number of different versions of Tylenol that are sold these days, lord only knows what testing they've done since 1955. I didn't make up the story so I don't know the specifics.

For what it's worth, here is a letter to the editor from a newspaper in Kentucky that gives perspective that religious objectors should take note of. It also has an extensive list of medications that have been tested using fetal cell lines.


The key point of the writer's letter is that although it is horrific that a baby was aborted decades ago, there is no point in not saving millions of lives by using those cells to create drugs that help people. The writer notes that if he were murdered, he would want his body used to save other people. He's not condoning creating new stem cells (that's a far more divisive conversation), he's just simply saying that the benefits of testing using those 50 year old fetal cell lines far outweigh the ethical dilemma and that the Catholic Church agrees with that viewpoint.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they don't want aborted fetus material injected in their body. If that were the case, I think most people would agree that's disturbing. The truth is, the drugs are tested on those cells, not manufactured using those cells. I know that doesn't fit the narrative that some people are trying to promote......but that doesn't mean that it isn't true. But hey, I've been told that folks have a right to believe in only the "truths" that fit their narrative.
 
You do realize that the Tylenol that is sold today is not exactly the same Tylenol that was sold originally? Also, if you look up Tylenol on the internet, you would know that it was actually introduced as a brand in 1955. Just because acetaminophen was discovered long before that doesn't mean that it wasn't tested at all in the time before Tylenol was released for sale. And given the number of different versions of Tylenol that are sold these days, lord only knows what testing they've done since 1955. I didn't make up the story so I don't know the specifics.

For what it's worth, here is a letter to the editor from a newspaper in Kentucky that gives perspective that religious objectors should take note of. It also has an extensive list of medications that have been tested using fetal cell lines.


The key point of the writer's letter is that although it is horrific that a baby was aborted decades ago, there is no point in not saving millions of lives by using those cells to create drugs that help people. The writer notes that if he were murdered, he would want his body used to save other people. He's not condoning creating new stem cells (that's a far more divisive conversation), he's just simply saying that the benefits of testing using those 50 year old fetal cell lines far outweigh the ethical dilemma and that the Catholic Church agrees with that viewpoint.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they don't want aborted fetus material injected in their body. If that were the case, I think most people would agree that's disturbing. The truth is, the drugs are tested on those cells, not manufactured using those cells. I know that doesn't fit the narrative that some people are trying to promote......but that doesn't mean that it isn't true. But hey, I've been told that folks have a right to believe in only the "truths" that fit their narrative.
Somewhat deviating from the topic - which I don't apologize for at all - but I wonder...what's the objection to the use of placental stem cells? Their use does not sacrifice life - in fact, ideally they mean a healthy birth. Seems like harvest and use of those cells should provide the same medical benefits without the moral downside...but people remain almost as adamantly opposed to placental cells as fetal ones.
 
Somewhat deviating from the topic - which I don't apologize for at all - but I wonder...what's the objection to the use of placental stem cells? Their use does not sacrifice life - in fact, ideally they mean a healthy birth. Seems like harvest and use of those cells should provide the same medical benefits without the moral downside...but people remain almost as adamantly opposed to placental cells as fetal ones.

I spent 10 minutes looking at articles on why embryonic or fetal stem cells are better and it made my head hurt. My takeaway is that embryonic stem cells are more powerful because they are the cells that develop into everything that becomes a human body, while placental stem cells are interlaced with maternal DNA and are more targeted towards helping the embryonic stem cells develop.

On the moral arguments...this kind of stuff is based on politics and emotion......so it doesn't matter if there is a difference for a lot of people.
 
Silence from the "progressives"? How shocking. Ed? Is it "my body, my choice" or not? Flatland? Others on the left? Don't dodge this. It makes you look really bad.
Ah yes...this is rich coming from a person who "answered" my initial question asked of you with a question. Great answer bro.
 
Ah yes...this is rich coming from a person who "answered" my initial question asked of you with a question. Great answer bro.
Well clearly h...d...t...h is a fraud and a troll. Shows up here once a month (if that), throws feces all over the walls and then disappears to go get new marching orders from his internet tribal leaders. Taihtsat
 
Well clearly h...d...t...h is a fraud and a troll. Shows up here once a month (if that), throws feces all over the walls and then disappears to go get new marching orders from his internet tribal leaders. Taihtsat
We definitely know your thoughts aren't your own so.... The pot calling the kettle black much? I'd say so.
 
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We definitely know your thoughts aren't your own so.... The pot calling the kettle black much? I'd say so.
Almost no one's thoughts are entirely their own. Its what informs those thoughts that differentiates you 2 from those of us who dwell in the reality based world. Taihtsat
 
Almost no one's thoughts are entirely their own. Its what informs those thoughts that differentiates you 2 from those of us who dwell in the reality based world. Taihtsat
Exactly what am I dwelling on smart guy? Unlike you, I don't listen the mainstream diarrhea that gets spewed daily then use that diarrhea to purport ridiculousness on a college sports message forum.
 
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FWIW, I don't believe that the COVID vaccines are all that effective at preventing the spread. I do believe that it does a good job of preventing serious illness. That report focuses on viral spread, not hospitalizations.
Then you are a complete dipshit. The data is not up for debate or belief. It just is what it is. And it is proven over and over again.
 
"Same goes for Rolovich. If he feels that his religion precludes him from getting the vaccine, he shouldn't use any other medication."

No. That is not the way this goes...but I'm not surprised you don't understand that. If fetal cell lines are used to make the vaccine then I don't use those vaccines. That would be a religious reason. Get it?
In that case I trust he will never ever get the monoclonal antibodies, right?
 
Follow the money. Always follow the money.

Why do so many struggle with understanding this fact?

Monoclonal antibody treatments cost 10x more than vaccines. Ron DeSantis is pushing this with all his resources. I trust you are actively trashing him for being in the pocket of bigpharma.
 
Easy to see who gets their news from facebook memes.

When did Facebook become a search engine?

DuckDuckGo is your friend. Unless you’re an authoritarian who wants every aspect of others’ lives tracked. In which case, by all means Facebook as your go to and Google for everything else fulfills that objective.
 
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Then you are a complete dipshit. The data is not up for debate or belief. It just is what it is. And it is proven over and over again.

What data is out there that is not up for debate? FWIW, I believe that everyone should get vaccinated because it keeps people out of ICU's but I also know that I've had three vaccinated family members catch mild cases of COVID after being vaccinated. My wife was home for a week last month because she was a breakthrough case. Yell "dipshit" all you want, but I stand by my earlier comment.
 
Exactly what am I dwelling on smart guy? Unlike you, I don't listen the mainstream diarrhea that gets spewed daily then use that diarrhea to purport ridiculousness on a college sports message forum.
I think you've made it abundantly clear that diarrhea is your main source of news and information.
 
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When did Facebook become a search engine?

DuckDuckGo is your friend. Unless you’re an authoritarian who wants every aspect of others’ lives tracked. In which case, by all means Facebook as your go to and Google for everything else fulfills that objective.
You know, I was going to reply to Flat regarding his google search for whatever it was, but this seems to be the right place.

I googled "where does mRNA come from" on google and ended up at a bunch of sites that used weasel words to basically not give you a straight answer.

I decided to DDG the same question; the very first article got straight to the point about mRNA, its ethical uses, stem cells, etc.

Whether or not the information is valid or not, why is there such a big effort to obfuscate the truth?
 
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You know, I was going to reply to Flat regarding his google search for whatever it was, but this seems to be the right place.

I googled "where does mRNA come from" on google and ended up at a bunch of sites that used weasel words to basically not give you a straight answer.

I decided to DDG the same question; the very first article got straight to the point about mRNA, its ethical uses, stem cells, etc.

Whether or not the information is valid or not, why is there such a big effort to obfuscate the truth?
Influence, power, ego and greed. See fraudster Joe Mercola for one shining example.
 
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You know, I was going to reply to Flat regarding his google search for whatever it was, but this seems to be the right place.

I googled "where does mRNA come from" on google and ended up at a bunch of sites that used weasel words to basically not give you a straight answer.

I decided to DDG the same question; the very first article got straight to the point about mRNA, its ethical uses, stem cells, etc.

Whether or not the information is valid or not, why is there such a big effort to obfuscate the truth?
But you should use memes and Facebook in addition to Google....you know, instead of an unbiased search engine that doesn't track your whereabouts.

Get with the program, man.
 
I think you've made it abundantly clear that diarrhea is your main source of news and information.
The "I know you are but what am I?" debate tactic.......... Solid argument. You should take those God given talents to the court house and become a trial lawyer. I think you'd be missing out on your true calling in life if you didn't.
 
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The "I know you are but what am I?" debate tactic.......... Solid argument. You should take those God given talents to the court house and become a trial lawyer. I think you'd be missing out on your true calling in life if you didn't.
It's the only level of discourse you deserve as in all previous attempts to get you to back up our insane claims by naming your sources are met with crickets from you. You got nothing, bub. That's all I have to say about that
 
What data is out there that is not up for debate? FWIW, I believe that everyone should get vaccinated because it keeps people out of ICU's but I also know that I've had three vaccinated family members catch mild cases of COVID after being vaccinated. My wife was home for a week last month because she was a breakthrough case. Yell "dipshit" all you want, but I stand by my earlier comment.

You literally said you don't believe that vaccines are all that effective in reducing transmission. That is a blatant lie. The data proves that. Your anecdotes mean jack shit.
 
It's the only level of discourse you deserve as in all previous attempts to get you to back up our insane claims by naming your sources are met with crickets from you. You got nothing, bub. That's all I have to say about that
Insane? You claiming the Vaccine is the only thing keeping us being wiped into extinction by Covid is sane?
 
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You know, I was going to reply to Flat regarding his google search for whatever it was, but this seems to be the right place.

I googled "where does mRNA come from" on google and ended up at a bunch of sites that used weasel words to basically not give you a straight answer.

I decided to DDG the same question; the very first article got straight to the point about mRNA, its ethical uses, stem cells, etc.

Whether or not the information is valid or not, why is there such a big effort to obfuscate the truth?
Really? When I google exactly the same terms, I get a full page of results that say exactly what mRNA is, and describes its function. Most of them are actual science sites (first one is the human genome project) that match up exactly with what I learned in HS biology and in Bio 103/104 decades ago. They explain that mRNA naturally occurs in cells and is critical to cellular function. Those results are actually answering the question, and addressing the primary source, function, and purpose of mRNA.

Sounds to me like the real issue is that you didn't get the results you wanted, so you're assuming there's a problem with the answer...when the real problem is the way you asked the question.
 
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Really? When I google exactly the same terms, I get a full page of results that say exactly what mRNA is, and describes its function. Most of them are actual science sites (first one is the human genome project) that match up exactly with what I learned in HS biology and in Bio 103/104 decades ago. They explain that mRNA naturally occurs in cells and is critical to cellular function. Those results are actually answering the question, and addressing the primary source, function, and purpose of mRNA.

Sounds to me like the real issue is that you didn't get the results you wanted, so you're assuming there's a problem with the answer...when the real problem is the way you asked the question.
Yet, I got the answer I needed when I went to DDG. Immediately.

I didn't query "dur dur, what is mRNA" and never said I did. I queried "where does mRNA come from" as is, is it from cells, lab created, etc. This is a hot topic right now due to the "I don't want fetus cells in my body", but Google won't give you a straight answer and DDG did, immediately.
 
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Yet, I got the answer I needed when I went to DDG. Immediately.

I didn't query "dur dur, what is mRNA" and never said I did. I queried "where does mRNA come from" as is, is it from cells, lab created, etc. This is a hot topic right now due to the "I don't want fetus cells in my body", but Google won't give you a straight answer and DDG did, immediately.

Just because you are too stupid to understand what the literature is telling you does not mean that google is conspiring to hide something from you.
 
Just because you are too stupid to understand what the literature is telling you does not mean that google is conspiring to hide something from you.
beat it troll.

I'll take you on in a battle of wit any day, any time, any where. Your inability to post anything other than flames and histrionic left wing talking points is all anyone needs to know to guess where your IQ lies.
 
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Yet, I got the answer I needed when I went to DDG. Immediately.

I didn't query "dur dur, what is mRNA" and never said I did. I queried "where does mRNA come from" as is, is it from cells, lab created, etc. This is a hot topic right now due to the "I don't want fetus cells in my body", but Google won't give you a straight answer and DDG did, immediately.
Yeah, I understood that the first time. And I googled the term you quoted, and got the results I described...which exactly - and correctly - answered the question posed. The results I got on google are exactly what "where does mRNA come from" should have returned.

If you really wanted to know how mRNA vaccines work, and where they come from, you should have searched for that. Personally, I don't really want a search engine that's adding terms to give results I didn't ask for, based on what's in the headlines.

And, there are no fetus cells in the mRNA vaccines. The J&J contains a component produced by and only 1 generation removed from the fetal cell line, but no actual fetal cells.
 
Yeah, I understood that the first time. And I googled the term you quoted, and got the results I described...which exactly - and correctly - answered the question posed. The results I got on google are exactly what "where does mRNA come from" should have returned.

If you really wanted to know how mRNA vaccines work, and where they come from, you should have searched for that. Personally, I don't really want a search engine that's adding terms to give results I didn't ask for, based on what's in the headlines.

And, there are no fetus cells in the mRNA vaccines. The J&J contains a component produced by and only 1 generation removed from the fetal cell line, but no actual fetal cells.
Ok wise guy who is going to argue a point just to argue a point:

First google result: Moderna, an Ad, which takes you to an infographic that gives you 1000' overview like your a toddler. It also gives zero information about how mRNA is produced, ie where the fck it comes from, leaving the skeptics to believe exactly what they want to believe.

2. Genome.gov - high school biology level definition of mRNA.

3. Science Direct (.com) - a white paper behind a paywall defining mRNA in generic terms

4. TAMU page on how mRNA works, a brief history and how its being used in medicine.

5. Wikipedia

6. Britannica

7. Nature.com article - If you dig several paragraphs in, you get a snippet where they say "lab created mRNA"

DDG search "where does mRNA come from"

1. Health.nd.gov - dives right into fetal cells, lab mRNA, the ethics of it and what religious leaders say.
You know, apropro for the question and the topic.

But yeah, I know all that bullshit you spouted out - I was doing research on what information was out there so I could see what was available for people to learn/ know. In other words, not much for a layman who is looking for simple answers and not an infomercial on why this companies vaccine is good or a basic bio lesson.


So either you're lying about your google results or your reading a lot into the information that is being given.
 
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You do have the right to be believe in different things. Believing in things that are blatantly wrong and erroneous is a choice that you are allowed to make. Some people believe that the earth is flat and they believe that fervently. Doesn't mean that those people aren't idiots for believing it. A lot of the "believing" that goes in with the false COVID narratives border on flat earth thinking.
In both cases you shouldn’t be allowed to, and soon probably won’t be able to fly to the other side of the world.
 
Ok wise guy who is going to argue a point just to argue a point:

First google result: Moderna, an Ad, which takes you to an infographic that gives you 1000' overview like your a toddler. It also gives zero information about how mRNA is produced, ie where the fck it comes from, leaving the skeptics to believe exactly what they want to believe.

2. Genome.gov - high school biology level definition of mRNA.

3. Science Direct (.com) - a white paper behind a paywall defining mRNA in generic terms

4. TAMU page on how mRNA works, a brief history and how its being used in medicine.

5. Wikipedia

6. Britannica

7. Nature.com article - If you dig several paragraphs in, you get a snippet where they say "lab created mRNA"

DDG search "where does mRNA come from"

1. Health.nd.gov - dives right into fetal cells, lab mRNA, the ethics of it and what religious leaders say.
You know, apropro for the question and the topic.

But yeah, I know all that bullshit you spouted out - I was doing research on what information was out there so I could see what was available for people to learn/ know. In other words, not much for a layman who is looking for simple answers and not an infomercial on why this companies vaccine is good or a basic bio lesson.


So either you're lying about your google results or your reading a lot into the information that is being given.
My results are similar, without the ad.

Top result is genome.gov, which includes "mRNA is an RNA version of the gene that leaves the cell nucleus and moves to the cytoplasm where proteins are made" and "Messenger RNAs, also known as mRNA, are one of the types of RNA that are found in the cell." In other words, in two different places, it answers exactly the question we asked google.

2nd is the top of the Science Direct topic page (which again answers "where does mRNA come from" in its first sentence) providing a dozen links to articles and chapters for further study.

3rd is from A&M, although that's not clear until you click into it (theconversation.com?). In its first paragraph it says "ut mRNA itself is not a new invention from the lab. It evolved billions of years ago and is naturally found in every cell in your body" (again, answering the question asked) before it gives a reader's digest version of what it is, how it works, and why that makes it interesting to vaccine makers.

4th is a (unsponsored) link from Moderna, explaining mRNA science, then an April 2020 link from europa.eu about the potential for mRNA vaccines, another copy of the A&M information from a different page (Texas A&M Today), wikipedia and Britannica. I don't use wikipedia, because it's too open to editing by idiots. Britannica has a good summary just in the link preview.

I don't have DDG, and have no intention of downloading another app just to get a search engine. Besides...if the top result it gives is about fetal cells, labs, ethics, and religion....none of those answer "where does mRNA come from." That's more like "what are the problems with adapting mRNA to medical uses."

Anyway, it's too late for arguing the point to be fun anymore, but my point is...google answered the question you asked. You just didn't ask the question you wanted the answer to.
 
You literally said you don't believe that vaccines are all that effective in reducing transmission. That is a blatant lie. The data proves that. Your anecdotes mean jack shit.

You are picking a fight with the wrong person. I support vaccination and have been vaccinated. I believe that everyone should get vaccinated even if they still might get a mild case of COVID because I also believe that it will keep people out of the hospital and save lives.

What I've seen is that vaccinations do reduce transmission.....but they don't eliminate transmission and they don't prevent you from catching COVID. They work best when just about everyone is vaccinated. Anecdote or not, I've personally seen where multiple vaccinated people caught COVID. Unfortunately, we live in a society full of armchair scholars that think that OAN, Newsmax and Fox News are the best news sources and they believe that because the vaccine isn't 100% effective that it's crap.
 
What I've seen is that vaccinations do reduce transmission.....but they don't eliminate transmission and they don't prevent you from catching COVID. They work best when just about everyone is vaccinated.
That is exactly how they work. You implied they aren't effective at reducing transmission, and that is a blatant lie.
 
That is exactly how they work. You implied they aren't effective at reducing transmission, and that is a blatant lie.

I said that the vaccines don't prevent the spread. I agree that they reduce the spread. There's a difference. Again, don't waste energy on me. I agree with you that people should get vaccinated.

What is more important than trying to get me to say that vaccines are amazing is to get the people that think vaccines are dangerous and ineffective to understand that they are not as dangerous as the internet says and they are effective enough to make them worth the trouble.
 
You are picking a fight with the wrong person. I support vaccination and have been vaccinated. I believe that everyone should get vaccinated even if they still might get a mild case of COVID because I also believe that it will keep people out of the hospital and save lives.

What I've seen is that vaccinations do reduce transmission.....but they don't eliminate transmission and they don't prevent you from catching COVID. They work best when just about everyone is vaccinated. Anecdote or not, I've personally seen where multiple vaccinated people caught COVID. Unfortunately, we live in a society full of armchair scholars that think that OAN, Newsmax and Fox News are the best news sources and they believe that because the vaccine isn't 100% effective that it's crap.
a)he's wrong
b) all he does is pick fights. don't engage

edit: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

show me anywhere on this page where it says explicitly "covid vaccine prevents the spread of sarscov2". It mentions briefly that, "Being fully vaccinated and wearing a mask maximizes protection from the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others." That's the closest it gets to saying anything about vaccine and spread.
 
Last edited:
a)he's wrong
b) all he does is pick fights. don't engage

edit: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

show me anywhere on this page where it says explicitly "covid vaccine prevents the spread of sarscov2". It mentions briefly that, "Being fully vaccinated and wearing a mask maximizes protection from the Delta variant and possibly spreading it to others." That's the closest it gets to saying anything about vaccine and spread.
The pages on measles and polio don't make a categorical statement about vaccines preventing spread either.
 
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