Abandoning allies

[Coug90]

So, Putin’s plan was not invade Ukraine during Trump’s first term but let US made weapons Trump authorized to arrive with his asset in the WH, wait for Trump to lose 2020, then launch a hastily planned invasion in 2022 with insufficient manpower and logistics, incur 800,000 casualties, wait for Trump to be reelected in 2024 even though the polls were showing a Harris win, then cut a deal?

Kinda hard to make a peace deal if you refuse to talk. But not talking is a good way to endlessly fund a war that Ukraine can't win.

Cut a deal? Funny way to say Trump is handing him territory he committed war crimes and invaded a sovereign country for.

Deep in the bowels of this board I told you Putin was holding firm in Ukraine until Trump got reelected, then he would essentially be given Ukraine and continue his aggression in Eastern Europe. Voila, well into step one a month in. It’s so F’n obvious it’s stupid.

 

[chugspig]

Everyone should probably just assume you don’t have the same level of information as the president, vice president, and secretary of state . Im on the Ukrainian people’s side, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t issues with what is going on there on Ukrainian side either. I don’t see calling for peace as a siding with Russia. What an impossible situation to figure out.

 

[UberCougars]

I’m firmly on the side of the Ukrainian people, too.

I believe the Ukrainian people should have the ability to choose their leader with timely(immediate?) free and fair elections.

 

[Coug90]

My gawd you watch entirely too much of that butch Rachel Maddow. She's bustin' at the seams with the amount of crow she's had to eat.

I don’t watch Maddow. I don’t have my face glued to extreme news 24/7 like you guys do. If you can unplug your ears open your eyes and put Tucker and Hannity on mute for a few minutes go watch the disgrace that was Helsinki. Fox, CNN, NBC… nobody can edit the tape. Its right there for you to see.

 

[UberCougars]

Helsinki disgrace? Do you mean the press conference John McCain, Jeff Flake, Anderson Cooper and others vested in the Russia dossier fraud said was disgraceful?

The press conference in which both Trump and Putin knew at the time, that story was fake?

Or, were you referring to a different Helsinki meeting?

 

[Coug90]

Helsinki disgrace? Do you mean the press conference John McCain, Jeff Flake, Anderson Cooper and others vested in the Russia dossier fraud said was disgraceful?

The press conference in which both Trump and Putin knew at the time, that story was fake?

Or, were you referring to a different Helsinki meeting?

You sound like you need more Bigfoot sightings Uber. I’m on it.

 

[dgibbons]

Cut a deal? Funny way to say Trump is handing him territory he committed war crimes and invaded a sovereign country for.

Deep in the bowels of this board I told you Putin was holding firm in Ukraine until Trump got reelected, then he would essentially be given Ukraine and continue his aggression in Eastern Europe. Voila, well into step one a month in. It’s so F’n obvious it’s stupid.

You can join the Ukraine Foreign Legion you know. Maybe you and Ed can man the same foxhole.

You do realize that none of what you've posted on this subject makes any sense, and directly contradicts stupidly obvious facts such as Putin invaded Georgia during W. Bush's presidency, annexed Crimea during Obama's presidency and invaded Ukraine during Biden's presidency. None of that can be reconciled with your theory that Trump is a Russian asset.

W. Bush was charged with war crimes by the ICC. WMDs was a lie. Our man in Panama, Manuel Noriega, outlived his usefulness and became expendable so the US invaded. The CIA helped overthrow the government of Iran and inserted the Shah, who committed all kinds of human rights violations. The Soviet Union was a US ally during WWII. Stalin was responsible for starving millions of Ukrainians. And of course, the US told Ukraine to keep fighting in the spring of 2022 when Ukraine still had several hundred thousand more living men. The US doesn't have any moral high ground to stand on.

 

[dgibbons]

I don’t watch Maddow. I don’t have my face glued to extreme news 24/7 like you guys do. If you can unplug your ears open your eyes and put Tucker and Hannity on mute for a few minutes go watch the disgrace that was Helsinki. Fox, CNN, NBC… nobody can edit the tape. Its right there for you to see.

So what is the source of the propaganda you have and are consuming?

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

You can join the Ukraine Foreign Legion you know. Maybe you and Ed can man the same foxhole.

You do realize that none of what you've posted on this subject makes any sense, and directly contradicts stupidly obvious facts such as Putin invaded Georgia during W. Bush's presidency, annexed Crimea during Obama's presidency and invaded Ukraine during Biden's presidency. None of that can be reconciled with your theory that Trump is a Russian asset.

W. Bush was charged with war crimes by the ICC. WMDs was a lie. Our man in Panama, Manuel Noriega, outlived his usefulness and became expendable so the US invaded. The CIA helped overthrow the government of Iran and inserted the Shah, who committed all kinds of human rights violations. The Soviet Union was a US ally during WWII. Stalin was responsible for starving millions of Ukrainians. And of course, the US told Ukraine to keep fighting in the spring of 2022 when Ukraine still had several hundred thousand more living men. The US doesn't have any moral high ground to stand on.

Obviously Putin needs Trump to rubber stamp everything he does.

Dang Gib, pull your head out and smell the treasonous collusion.

 

[CougInSpain]

I don’t watch Maddow. I don’t have my face glued to extreme news 24/7 like you guys do. If you can unplug your ears open your eyes and put Tucker and Hannity on mute for a few minutes go watch the disgrace that was Helsinki. Fox, CNN, NBC… nobody can edit the tape. Its right there for you to see.

I don't watch any of that ish or TV for that matter outside of sports and sports only. I find watching TV for more than 30 minutes a day is for fat people. While I'm over here perfecting my Spanish, going to the gym daily, side-hustling by customizing Harleys out of my garage and burying myself in DIY projects, the fatty libby's sit around getting drunk off of click bait headlines and overt hyperbolic opinionated "news".... Jim Acosta much? BTW, that JD Vance speech at the Munich Security Conference was absolutely epic. He face-palmed the sh!t out of those hyper-sensitive elites that sat there with their mouths open as he just eviscerated them. The way he made the chair of the MSC cry was a thing of beauty and wholly representative of just how weak & feeble minded the European liberals are.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I don't watch any of that ish or TV for that matter outside of sports and sports only. I find watching TV for more than 30 minutes a day is for fat people. While I'm over here perfecting my Spanish, going to the gym daily, side-hustling by customizing Harleys out of my garage and burying myself in DIY projects, the fatty libby's sit around getting drunk off of click bait headlines and overt hyperbolic opinionated "news".... Jim Acosta much? BTW, that JD Vance speech at the Munich Security Conference was absolutely epic. He face-palmed the sh!t out of those hyper-sensitive elites that sat there with their mouths open as he just eviscerated them. The way he made the chair of the MSC cry was a thing of beauty and wholly representative of just how weak & feeble minded the European liberals are.

sorry to burst your bubble, but that video was edited.

doesn't change the validity of your comments though.

 

[UberCougars]

You sound like you need more Bigfoot sightings Uber. I’m on it.

Isn’t that what you usually do when you’re trapped?

 

[UberCougars]

You can join the Ukraine Foreign Legion you know. Maybe you and Ed can man the same foxhole.

You do realize that none of what you've posted on this subject makes any sense, and directly contradicts stupidly obvious facts such as Putin invaded Georgia during W. Bush's presidency, annexed Crimea during Obama's presidency and invaded Ukraine during Biden's presidency. None of that can be reconciled with your theory that Trump is a Russian asset.

W. Bush was charged with war crimes by the ICC. WMDs was a lie. Our man in Panama, Manuel Noriega, outlived his usefulness and became expendable so the US invaded. The CIA helped overthrow the government of Iran and inserted the Shah, who committed all kinds of human rights violations. The Soviet Union was a US ally during WWII. Stalin was responsible for starving millions of Ukrainians. And of course, the US told Ukraine to keep fighting in the spring of 2022 when Ukraine still had several hundred thousand more living men. The US doesn't have any moral high ground to stand on.

Sounds fine and all but, why would Ed, Flatland and 90 go fight for Ukraine when 90% of military age Ukrainians won’t?

 

[Coug90]

Isn’t that what you usually do when you’re trapped?

Oh yeah, trapped by your endless stream of X MAGA porn. Got me there…

 

[Coug90]

You can join the Ukraine Foreign Legion you know. Maybe you and Ed can man the same foxhole.

You do realize that none of what you've posted on this subject makes any sense, and directly contradicts stupidly obvious facts such as Putin invaded Georgia during W. Bush's presidency, annexed Crimea during Obama's presidency and invaded Ukraine during Biden's presidency. None of that can be reconciled with your theory that Trump is a Russian asset.

W. Bush was charged with war crimes by the ICC. WMDs was a lie. Our man in Panama, Manuel Noriega, outlived his usefulness and became expendable so the US invaded. The CIA helped overthrow the government of Iran and inserted the Shah, who committed all kinds of human rights violations. The Soviet Union was a US ally during WWII. Stalin was responsible for starving millions of Ukrainians. And of course, the US told Ukraine to keep fighting in the spring of 2022 when Ukraine still had several hundred thousand more living men. The US doesn't have any moral high ground to stand on.

Regurgitating what you read in a history book doesn’t rationalize current events. Maybe you’re right, maybe he’s not a Russian asset. With that assumption out of the way he’s simply weak, and a shitty “negotiator”. Much better choice for our commander in chief, bravo you win.

 

[Coug90]

I don't watch any of that ish or TV for that matter outside of sports and sports only. I find watching TV for more than 30 minutes a day is for fat people. While I'm over here perfecting my Spanish, going to the gym daily, side-hustling by customizing Harleys out of my garage and burying myself in DIY projects, the fatty libby's sit around getting drunk off of click bait headlines and overt hyperbolic opinionated "news".... Jim Acosta much? BTW, that JD Vance speech at the Munich Security Conference was absolutely epic. He face-palmed the sh!t out of those hyper-sensitive elites that sat there with their mouths open as he just eviscerated them. The way he made the chair of the MSC cry was a thing of beauty and wholly representative of just how weak & feeble minded the European liberals are.

Ironic you point to all of our “differences”. Good for you, by what you’ve shared you and I are probably a lot more alike then we are different. So tell me something…sounds like in the real world you wouldn’t have much time for a fat pile of shit that watches TV all the time, grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth, has never picked up a hammer, never shot a gun, never ridden a motorcycle, never gone to the gym, wouldn’t even try to learn another language…why TF do you worship someone like that 😂??? Naw…not a cult at all…

 

[dgibbons]

Regurgitating what you read in a history book doesn’t rationalize current events. Maybe you’re right, maybe he’s not a Russian asset. With that assumption out of the way he’s simply weak, and a shitty “negotiator”. Much better choice for our commander in chief, bravo you win.

Do you think the war should end or continue?

 

[Coug90]

Do you think the war should end or continue?

The only way the war ends is to kick Putin out of Ukraine. You are advocating for a modern day Munich Agreement and a much longer and more painful conflict.

 

[dgibbons]

The only way the war ends is to kick Putin out of Ukraine. You are advocating for a modern day Munich Agreement and a much longer and more painful conflict.

Nothing is stopping Europe from funding 100 percent of the Ukraine's war effort and economy. If Zelenskyy can convince enough members of Congress to continue the funding it happens without Trump's signature.

Ukraine is losing, and has been getting steadily pushed back since the summer. The average age of a Ukrainian solider is mid-40s, and that's on top of the demographics being so bad that men 18-25 are not subject to conscription (but a lot are volunteering). Large parts of Ukraine are rubble and will take decades and the hundreds of billions of dollars already lined up from a western banking group to rebuild.

If you want talk about moral imperatives, does not the US have a moral imperative to tell Ukraine no more aid and to stop fighting, and that we won't be a part of Ukraine destroying itself, wiping out its own population and losing the war?

 

[CougInSpain]

Ironic you point to all of our “differences”. Good for you, by what you’ve shared you and I are probably a lot more alike then we are different. So tell me something…sounds like in the real world you wouldn’t have much time for a fat pile of shit that watches TV all the time, grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth, has never picked up a hammer, never shot a gun, never ridden a motorcycle, never gone to the gym, wouldn’t even try to learn another language…why TF do you worship someone like that 😂??? Naw…not a cult at all…

You see, there in lies the difference between you and I. You make the assumption that I "bend the knee" at the altar of MAGA but in reality, I just don't swallow the wholesale garbage your political icons like Schiff, Warren and other soft AF libs who've done nothing but present themselves as absolute clowns anytime a camera is in front of them. You can think I am MAGA all you want, IDGAF. If being a common sense approach kind of person to issues that affect everyone somehow makes me MAGA, then so be it. Only a moron would come to such a conclusion.

 

[Coug90]

You see, there in lies the difference between you and I. You make the assumption that I "bend the knee" at the altar of MAGA but in reality, I just don't swallow the wholesale garbage your political icons like Schiff, Warren and other soft AF libs who've done nothing but present themselves as absolute clowns anytime a camera is in front of them. You can think I am MAGA all you want, IDGAF. If being a common sense approach kind of person to issues that affect everyone somehow makes me MAGA, then so be it. Only a moron would come to such a conclusion.

Well shit there’s one more thing we’re alike on, cuz I’m far from a lib. Considering you immediately contradicted your first line, I guess that makes us both morons, so add another. And I’m sorry but Uber liking your post makes you a bigger moron.

 

[UberCougars]

The only way the war ends is to kick Putin out of Ukraine. You are advocating for a modern day Munich Agreement and a much longer and more painful conflict.

- Europe could have stopped funding Russia years ago if they were serious about pressuring Russia meaningfully.

- Europe can certainly put their military where their mouths are and push Russia out.

- Russia can agree to a conditional cease fire that Ukrainians can vote on for acceptance or rejection.

- Ukrainians can continue desertions, stop attracting soldiers altogether and fade into surrender.

Just a few alternatives to your ultimatum nobody is discussing.

 

[Coug90]

Nothing is stopping Europe from funding 100 percent of the Ukraine's war effort and economy. If Zelenskyy can convince enough members of Congress to continue the funding it happens without Trump's signature.

Ukraine is losing, and has been getting steadily pushed back since the summer. The average age of a Ukrainian solider is mid-40s, and that's on top of the demographics being so bad that men 18-25 are not subject to conscription (but a lot are volunteering). Large parts of Ukraine are rubble and will take decades and the hundreds of billions of dollars already lined up from a western banking group to rebuild.

If you want talk about moral imperatives, does not the US have a moral imperative to tell Ukraine no more aid and to stop fighting, and that we won't be a part of Ukraine destroying itself, wiping out its own population and losing the war?

I’m not saying Europe shouldn’t step up. Trump telling Ukraine to give up and hand over part of their country to Putin ain’t the flex you think it is.

 

[Coug90]

- Europe could have stopped funding Russia years ago if they were serious about pressuring Russia meaningfully.

- Europe can certainly put their military where their mouths are and push Russia out.

- Russia can agree to a conditional cease fire that Ukrainians can vote on for acceptance or rejection.

- Ukrainians can continue desertions, stop attracting soldiers altogether and fade into surrender.

Just a few alternatives to your ultimatum nobody is discussing.

Russia can GTFO of a country that they don’t belong in. The strongest military in the world should take that stance along with the rest of Europe.

Since when did we become such pussies in the U.S. that we’re fine negotiating with terrorists and mass murderers. It’s wild that you all think Trump is so tough when he’s proven himself to be a bitch within weeks of taking office.

 

[CougInSpain]

Well shit there’s one more thing we’re alike on, cuz I’m far from a lib. Considering you immediately contradicted your first line, I guess that makes us both morons, so add another. And I’m sorry but Uber liking your post makes you a bigger moron.

You voted for Kamala because you think of her as a viable candidate capable of making good decisions. You say you're not a liberal but every post that opposes democratic policy/liberal ideology you respond to every single one of those posts in the affirmative for such ideologies. So tell me Mr Non-Liberal, how many times did you vote for a candidate that wasn't a D in the last 16 years? Would you even be able to prove it? Probably not but we all know you love the D....

 

[CougInSpain]

I’m not saying Europe shouldn’t step up. Trump telling Ukraine to give up and hand over part of their country to Putin ain’t the flex you think it is.

Ummm TDS has got a death grip on you..... My goodness where do you get your information? Seriously, where?

 

[BSpike76]

Do you think the war should end or continue?

What are the terms you would accept to end it?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

- Europe could have stopped funding Russia years ago if they were serious about pressuring Russia meaningfully.

- Europe can certainly put their military where their mouths are and push Russia out.

- Russia can agree to a conditional cease fire that Ukrainians can vote on for acceptance or rejection.

- Ukrainians can continue desertions, stop attracting soldiers altogether and fade into surrender.

Just a few alternatives to your ultimatum nobody is discussing.

That's the kind of statement that proves that you are a fool when it comes to these discussions. Europe sending their troops into Ukraine is the start of WW III and our involvement would be inevitable.

What's sad is that the GOP claims that they are the party of righteousness and godliness and it's kind of pathetic that they are supporting a Putin puppet who is only focused on what kind of financial benefit that we can extract from the situation. The bullsh!t rhetoric that Trump is spewing is the exact opposite of Christian values.

 

[UberCougars]

I don’t know who the fool is but, Zelensky just surrendered. Trump got his mineral deal.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I don’t know who the fool is but, Zelensky just surrendered. Trump got his mineral deal.

View embedded media

Again, strong arming Ukraine is an absolutely horrible thing for us to be doing. There will come a day when the United States needs help from other countries and the lesson being taught by Trump is that you only help when you have financial gain to be made. This is not a good thing for our future. But hey.....dictators gotta dictate.

 

[UberCougars]

Glad to see you finally come around to the obvious that Zelensky is a dictator.

I was beginning to worry about you.

 

[UberCougars]

What if the Ukrainians don’t agree with the Zelensky deal with Trump and want to keep on fighting, ever think of that??

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Well shit there’s one more thing we’re alike on, cuz I’m far from a lib. Considering you immediately contradicted your first line, I guess that makes us both morons, so add another. And I’m sorry but Uber liking your post makes you a bigger moron.

I like it. Team Morons. A term I actually use a lot. Like when your family or friends get some project done or tent put up or whatever - "Team Morons" got it done.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

That's the kind of statement that proves that you are a fool when it comes to these discussions. Europe sending their troops into Ukraine is the start of WW III and our involvement would be inevitable.
.

You know Flat, that is actually a pretty good question. Would our involvement be inevitable? Or could we sit it out?

I'm not suggesting that at all, but it poses an interesting question, at least to me. What if the US did say "hey Ukraine and Europe, we support you but it is your problem?". A part of me kinda likes the idea. But get all of our military and planes and equipment out of Europe first so they don't get confiscated.

And edit - I've always been sort of a closet isolationist. The US is spread all over the globe as we know. Way more than anyone. I would rather spend our resources on our own continent(s). Europe and Russia have been fighting for milleniums. The Mideast? Centuries.

So the US says to hell with all of you. Get South and Central America "squared away" and that becomes our world. The Americas. Maybe Australia as an outpost.

 

[95coug]

Again, strong arming Ukraine is an absolutely horrible thing for us to be doing. There will come a day when the United States needs help from other countries and the lesson being taught by Trump is that you only help when you have financial gain to be made. This is not a good thing for our future. But hey.....dictators gotta dictate.

Apparently we’ve upped the stakes. If Ukraine doesn’t get on board with our “peace” plan and sign over $500B in mineral rights to us, we’re going to pull our assistance and Starlink is going to pull out.

While I’ve never really been on board with the US being the global cops, I’m really not on board with the US being the global dirty cops.

 

[dgibbons]

What are the terms you would accept to end it?

Acceptable to me? Coug90 and Putin have a shirtless arm wrestling contest. Best of five. Between rounds Putin gets oiled up by CougEd, and Coug90 gets oiled up by Trump. BYOBO, bring your own baby oil.

What’s “acceptable to me” is meaningless of course. So, I'll do my best to outline what I think are terms that need to be addressed, and what I think are reasonable ways of compromising.

1. Assuming that a DMZ is feasible, the frontline is about 600 miles, Ukraine gives up Kursk, and the DMZ extends eastward (so toward the Russian side).
2. The EU is holding about $300 billion in frozen Russian assets. Those are used for fences, trenches, or whatever is needed along the DMZ. If anything is left, it goes back to Russia over 50 years, backloaded so more is at the end. Ukraine gets the interest on the fund in the meantime. Russia gets the benefit of that money being used for security.
3.a. A peacekeeping force is a difficulty. I haven't heard anything about a UN peacekeeping force, and I'd say this is beyond what the UN could handle anyway. One thing working against this is a dearth of neutral countries that could provide a peacekeeping force. If Sweden and Finland were still neutral, maybe them along with Switzerland and Austria could have put 10,000ish troops along the DMZ, but not now. Maybe some combination of Arab states along with India could do it. Not sure how that gets funded. However, this does not appear to be part of the discussion.
3.b. Rather than a peacekeeping force in 3.a., this seems to be where the mineral rights are coming in, with the idea being that the US would have an economic interest and protect that interest (we have troops in Syria to protect the Conoco oil fields), and that would deter Russia. Trump said something about a security guaranty today. I assume that means Ukraine will be buying US weapons and equipment and some kind of mutual defense treaty. I would very much like the US to stop ****ing around in Ukraine. We haven't exactly wrapped ourselves in glory in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan. But, like I said, what is acceptable to me is meaningless.

What do you think would get a deal done?

 

[dgibbons]

Apparently we’ve upped the stakes. If Ukraine doesn’t get on board with our “peace” plan and sign over $500B in mineral rights to us, we’re going to pull our assistance and Starlink is going to pull out.

While I’ve never really been on board with the US being the global cops, I’m really not on board with the US being the global dirty cops.

Blame Biden and Boris Johnson for telling Ukraine to keep fighting back in 2022.

 

[95coug]

You know Flat, that is actually a pretty good question. Would our involvement be inevitable? Or could we sit it out?

I'm not suggesting that at all, but it poses an interesting question, at least to me. What if the US did say "hey Ukraine and Europe, we support you but it is your problem?". A part of me kinda likes the idea. But get all of our military and planes and equipment out of Europe first so they don't get confiscated.

And edit - I've always been sort of a closet isolationist. The US is spread all over the globe as we know. Way more than anyone. I would rather spend our resources on our own continent(s). Europe and Russia have been fighting for milleniums. The Mideast? Centuries.

So the US says to hell with all of you. Get South and Central America "squared away" and that becomes our world. The Americas. Maybe Australia as an outpost.

not sure I believe that getting south & Central America squared away is any more likely than getting it done in Europe. The only upside is that their issues are sociopolitical and economic instead of religious.

 

[Coug90]

You voted for Kamala because you think of her as a viable candidate capable of making good decisions. You say you're not a liberal but every post that opposes democratic policy/liberal ideology you respond to every single one of those posts in the affirmative for such ideologies. So tell me Mr Non-Liberal, how many times did you vote for a candidate that wasn't a D in the last 16 years? Would you even be able to prove it? Probably not but we all know you love the D....

D
D
Didn’t vote
R
R

I didn’t vote for Trump first time around. My exact words when he was running. He’s going to be the greatest president ever or the worst, there will be no in between. He sure as hell wasn’t the former and while I’m not sure it’s fair to say he’s the worst, he’s in Cleveland Browns territory for most lists I’ve seen.

You can call me a liberal if it helps you sleep at night I guess, you already proved you were a moron so no further damage done 🤷