Are We Winning Moral Victories Again?

[chipdouglas]

First, note that I'm not following as closely this year as I do in a typical year, so I'm less invested/emotional. With that said, here's what I'm still reading so far w/ excuses:

1. "This is a weird year due to COVID": true. But it's a weird year for everybody. COVID doesn't end at Pullman/Lewiston city limits. This excuse is a total zero IMO. ND, Clemson, Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma and much of the SEC - the usual giants, in other words - are still good this year and they're not making excuses.
2. "We're a new team": also true. Just remember, we were a new team in 2008 under Paul Wulff. We went 2-11 and people said "new team!" Over the remaining 3 years we lost 89% of our conference games. Historically, most Year 1s for our program preceded sub-0.500 records and disappointment.
3. "We schemed well but didn't have the talent": Guess what? THIS WON'T CHANGE. We haven't had ONE RECRUITING CLASS in the top half of our own conference since 2004, and we haven't topped the conference in over 20 years (source: 247). We are typically #10 or #11 in conference year after year; that is not going to change. We will have a talent disadvantage pretty much every year, but we threw away the gimmick offense which once helped us offset
4. "We won 3 quarters against USC": do I need to state the obvious? A game is 4 quarters. Nobody saying this would be happy if Rolo went 9-40 like Wulff, even if he "won 3 quarters" every game. Moreover, does anyone think USC in 2008 couldn't have scored more points in their 69-0 blowout in Pullman? They pretty much stopped passing the ball in the 2nd half.

Look, I was and AM fully willing to give Rolo 4 years to see what he's made of, and the OSU opener made me very optimistic about our defense and about JDL. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about poaching another Mountain West HC when the news broke. I understand the idea of catching a rising star, but I also understand it fails more than it succeeds. I would have hoped that coming off an all-time program high, we'd have had more P5 interest, because I think that was as good as it will ever get for us.

It just worries me to read the apparent return to moral victories such as the above, which were the coin of the realm in the CPW era.

 

[702coug]

The 2020 season is a shit show and has been since the spring. Everyone knows its very hard to have any expectations when the roster is jumbled each week, the schedule is shuffled each week, no fan support in the stands, complete rebuild of the program..blah blah blah. Personally I'll take moral victories and player development and settle for entertaining football any chance I can get it over the next couple weeks. I don't think anyone here can imagine what this is like for the kids on the field and in practices everyday and the emotional and physical stress they are under. I saw lot of players suck it up and finish hard Sunday night. If you wanna call that a moral bs victory...hell in 2020 I'll take it. The Mutts, Oregon and Utah are all having issues as well.

 

[Coug95man2]

I don't mind a FEW excuses. Especially at the beginning of whatever tenure. Players are feeling out the coaching staff, new playbook, the staff is getting used to the conference and players, etc. Where I have problems is when the "moral victories" continue into year 3,4,5,6. Even year 2, I don't mind some but there better be fewer than year 1.

 

[dgibbons]

We did win a game. The two losses were against teams ranked in the top 25 at the time. There have not been any 66-3 beatdowns, not able to cross midfield, multiple shutouts, not scoring a single TD in the first quarter for a whole season type stuff.

 

[chipdouglas]

Good responses. I'm OK with grading this like a half-year. What still isn't acceptable are games or even halves where we look like we don't even belong on a P5 field, which much of the SC game looked. Playing hard when the game is over is nice, but is a CLASSIC moral victory.

I still think the 4 excuses above that I'm seeing are total garbage. There's never an excuse not to COMPETE, and there's only so much rope you can lose before you hang yourself. Have to start winning but wait-and-see is warranted. That's why the floor for Rolo IMO is 4 years, with this just being an unfortunate first.

One legit excuse few have mentioned is the esprit de corps stuff happening before the season started, with ideology-related departures, and departures due to new scheme/staff. Not to mention Borghi.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

First, note that I'm not following as closely this year as I do in a typical year, so I'm less invested/emotional. With that said, here's what I'm still reading so far w/ excuses:

1. "This is a weird year due to COVID": true. But it's a weird year for everybody. COVID doesn't end at Pullman/Lewiston city limits. This excuse is a total zero IMO. ND, Clemson, Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma and much of the SEC - the usual giants, in other words - are still good this year and they're not making excuses.
2. "We're a new team": also true. Just remember, we were a new team in 2008 under Paul Wulff. We went 2-11 and people said "new team!" Over the remaining 3 years we lost 89% of our conference games. Historically, most Year 1s for our program preceded sub-0.500 records and disappointment.
3. "We schemed well but didn't have the talent": Guess what? THIS WON'T CHANGE. We haven't had ONE RECRUITING CLASS in the top half of our own conference since 2004, and we haven't topped the conference in over 20 years (source: 247). We are typically #10 or #11 in conference year after year; that is not going to change. We will have a talent disadvantage pretty much every year, but we threw away the gimmick offense which once helped us offset
4. "We won 3 quarters against USC": do I need to state the obvious? A game is 4 quarters. Nobody saying this would be happy if Rolo went 9-40 like Wulff, even if he "won 3 quarters" every game. Moreover, does anyone think USC in 2008 couldn't have scored more points in their 69-0 blowout in Pullman? They pretty much stopped passing the ball in the 2nd half.

Look, I was and AM fully willing to give Rolo 4 years to see what he's made of, and the OSU opener made me very optimistic about our defense and about JDL. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about poaching another Mountain West HC when the news broke. I understand the idea of catching a rising star, but I also understand it fails more than it succeeds. I would have hoped that coming off an all-time program high, we'd have had more P5 interest, because I think that was as good as it will ever get for us.

It just worries me to read the apparent return to moral victories such as the above, which were the coin of the realm in the CPW era.

Think you hit the nail on the head for me.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

First, note that I'm not following as closely this year as I do in a typical year, so I'm less invested/emotional. With that said, here's what I'm still reading so far w/ excuses:

1. "This is a weird year due to COVID": true. But it's a weird year for everybody. COVID doesn't end at Pullman/Lewiston city limits. This excuse is a total zero IMO. ND, Clemson, Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma and much of the SEC - the usual giants, in other words - are still good this year and they're not making excuses.
2. "We're a new team": also true. Just remember, we were a new team in 2008 under Paul Wulff. We went 2-11 and people said "new team!" Over the remaining 3 years we lost 89% of our conference games. Historically, most Year 1s for our program preceded sub-0.500 records and disappointment.
3. "We schemed well but didn't have the talent": Guess what? THIS WON'T CHANGE. We haven't had ONE RECRUITING CLASS in the top half of our own conference since 2004, and we haven't topped the conference in over 20 years (source: 247). We are typically #10 or #11 in conference year after year; that is not going to change. We will have a talent disadvantage pretty much every year, but we threw away the gimmick offense which once helped us offset
4. "We won 3 quarters against USC": do I need to state the obvious? A game is 4 quarters. Nobody saying this would be happy if Rolo went 9-40 like Wulff, even if he "won 3 quarters" every game. Moreover, does anyone think USC in 2008 couldn't have scored more points in their 69-0 blowout in Pullman? They pretty much stopped passing the ball in the 2nd half.

Look, I was and AM fully willing to give Rolo 4 years to see what he's made of, and the OSU opener made me very optimistic about our defense and about JDL. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about poaching another Mountain West HC when the news broke. I understand the idea of catching a rising star, but I also understand it fails more than it succeeds. I would have hoped that coming off an all-time program high, we'd have had more P5 interest, because I think that was as good as it will ever get for us.

It just worries me to read the apparent return to moral victories such as the above, which were the coin of the realm in the CPW era.

I think its a bit early to be deeming people finding the silver linings in what looks to be a complete sh!t-show for multiple reasons crutching on "moral victories."

Everything is a wreck, and COVID isn't helping. These aren't excuses, these are valid reasons. TBH, I thought that every game would look like USC simply due to this season being able to expose the extreme talent gap between teams like $C and WSU, but that hasn't been the case (entirely).

As for not competing - I agree that both sides of the ball came out and got completely out-classed, out hustled, and out-toughed. I don't know what to attribute that to, but my first inclination is coaching. Maybe they couldn't get the hitting in that breeds that simmering rage you have to have in your gut when you hit the field - I don't know. But, this one time, I'll give them a pass. There better not be a second time or I will be jumping on the MWC coaches bandwagon.

 

[chugspig]

Regarding point #1 basically explained by quality depth. Guess who can withstand attrition, Covid or not, to higher degree without drop off? Teams that don’t have coaching changes or attrition, and that have quality talented depth. If there was ever a year to be understanding it’s 2020.

Point#2, well wait till next year and if it’s bad then we’re just bad and Rolo might have issues. Correlating 3 games to 49 isn’t gonna mean much. There are dozens of good coaches active who started with losing records and it was pretty much accepted Rolo would too.

Point#3 nearly the same as point 1, but also negative 30 players. The CB who has 0 targets this year thrown at him, and Chau Wade Smith might have made a difference imo, as well as having some of our rush back.

Point#4. Is more about seeing a team get its ass beat in and then proceeding to still fight. You can call that a moral victory (we didn’t win anything) but more than anything it shows there are a bunch of guys who have been taught to not roll over and die. Not rolling over and dying is a nice base to build a defenses mind set around.

We’ve played 3 games, and only 2 consecutive this year. Down our starting RB out our best outside WR, down about 30 players. Both starting CBs. And without a good deal of what we consider our best rush and and interior D lineman. And our QB came back after 2 weeks of Covid and was pretty bad.

I think it’s pretty insane to even remotely compare this situation to Wulff. If we go 3-9 next year or look like shit I’m down run him out.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

One of the first things you learn about the stock market is to disbelieve the next words out of somebody's mouth if they start out with, "This time it's different....".

However, this season it is legitimately different. I think we are all trying to figure it out. When you have PAC teams with 6 games in playing another PAC team with 3 games in (not us, but on another field last weekend), you know that things are out of whack for the season. And every team is in the same scenario of not knowing at the beginning of the week who will be able to play come Saturday. Throw in all the team-specific things (new system, new QB, new staff, limited time to teach, etc.) and I simply have no idea how to judge things, other than I expect to see some improvement over the course of the season on what I consider to be the more glaring issues.

Chip, I am simply not sure that we have an effective yardstick other than game to game improvement to use in judging things. This whole season is off much of my radar screen.

 

[Coug90]

Even the 28-0 first quarter had a way different look then the Wulff first quarters. The defensive line can actually move the offensive lineman and penetrate and aren’t on ice skates. Their RBs aren’t running untouched for 70 yards...twice in a row. Tight Ends aren’t running away from our slow DBs. That first quarter everything went wrong and USC clearly had the better players but it was still night and day from 2008-11.

 

[chipdouglas]

Regarding point #1 basically explained by quality depth. Guess who can withstand attrition, Covid or not, to higher degree without drop off? Teams that don’t have coaching changes or attrition, and that have quality talented depth. If there was ever a year to be understanding it’s 2020.

Point#2, well wait till next year and if it’s bad then we’re just bad and Rolo might have issues. Correlating 3 games to 49 isn’t gonna mean much. There are dozens of good coaches active who started with losing records and it was pretty much accepted Rolo would too.

Point#3 nearly the same as point 1, but also negative 30 players. The CB who has 0 targets this year thrown at him, and Chau Wade Smith might have made a difference imo, as well as having some of our rush back.

Point#4. Is more about seeing a team get its ass beat in and then proceeding to still fight. You can call that a moral victory (we didn’t win anything) but more than anything it shows there are a bunch of guys who have been taught to not roll over and die. Not rolling over and dying is a nice base to build a defenses mind set around.

We’ve played 3 games, and only 2 consecutive this year. Down our starting RB out our best outside WR, down about 30 players. Both starting CBs. And without a good deal of what we consider our best rush and and interior D lineman. And our QB came back after 2 weeks of Covid and was pretty bad.

I think it’s pretty insane to even remotely compare this situation to Wulff. If we go 3-9 next year or look like shit I’m down run him out.

1. COVID: we're out-depthed by everyone whether it's COVID or not. We're either 2-caliber on 1-caliber (normal), or 3-caliber on 2-caliber (COVID). Still not an excuse IMO.
2. New Team: true - just remember, we've been here before. We're all hoping it's different.
3. Talent Gap/COVID: I don't think I need to adapt my point here
4. 3 Quarters: I'm glad we fought but I'd still call it a moral victory. EVERYONE would be calling for Rolo's head if this keeps up for 4 years. Again, hope it doesn't.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Rolo = Wulff. I'm saying I can't recall seeing us this out of a game since SC 2008 and I hope that is not here to stay.

 

[dgibbons]

Even the 28-0 first quarter had a way different look then the Wulff first quarters. The defensive line can actually move the offensive lineman and penetrate and aren’t on ice skates. Their RBs aren’t running untouched for 70 yards...twice in a row. Tight Ends aren’t running away from our slow DBs. That first quarter everything went wrong and USC clearly had the better players but it was still night and day from 2008-11.

The coverage was pretty ugly though.

 

[chugspig]

names of guys I can come up with off the top of my head that should be likely starting that we’ve lost either to injury, transfer or sitting out just this year:

Dontavean Martin, Max Borghi, Skyler Thomas, Tyrese Ross, Calvin Jackson, Roderick Fisher, Lamonte McDougal, Willie Taylor, Patrick Nunn, Cosmos Kwete, Will Rodgers.

Other depth non starting: Sheetz, Pettaway, Woods

Consider that list and think about what was going to happen. Especially when you start losing Watson, Chau Smith, Archie, Davis etc to Covid. Your freshman QB for weeks.

Depth issues must be solved, but the problems this year are about a 10/10 will never happen again type thing.

 

[BiggsCoug]

names of guys I can come up with off the top of my head that should be likely starting that we’ve lost either to injury, transfer or sitting out just this year:

Dontavean Martin, Max Borghi, Skyler Thomas, Tyrese Ross, Calvin Jackson, Roderick Fisher, Lamonte McDougal, Willie Taylor, Patrick Nunn, Cosmos Kwete, Will Rodgers.

Other depth non starting: Sheetz, Pettaway, Woods

Consider that list and think about what was going to happen. Especially when you start losing Watson, Chau Smith, Archie, Davis etc to Covid. Your freshman QB for weeks.

Depth issues must be solved, but the problems this year are about a 10/10 will never happen again type thing.

So roughly 15 kids out of the 44 in the two deep are gone.

This will be a young team for a few years.

 

[Coug90]

The coverage was pretty ugly though.

Sure, but at least they needed play(s) to score.

 

[Glad Cougar]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Rolo = Wulff. I'm saying I can't recall seeing us this out of a game since SC 2008 and I hope that is not here to stay.

A few contenders:

2017- Cal 37 WSU 3. Game was never close but I'll concede it wasn't 28-0 after one quarter.
2017- UW 41 WSU 14. It was 24 -0 at half, 34-0 after three quarters. You can pick several AC games under Leach as non-competitive contests.
2013- Stanford 55 WSU 17. It was 38-3 after 3 quarters.
2012- Utah 49 WSU 6. It was 31-0 at half.
2012- ASU 46 WSU 7. It was 32-0 at half and 46-0 after 3 quarters.

I didn't even go back into the Paul Wulff years post 2008. I"m sure to find some gems more recent than SC 2008. I won't argue that the game Sunday was effectively decided by the end of the first quarter, but it's not alone as a clunker when you look at the past decade.

Glad Cougar

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Glad, thank you for that lesson in games I've tried to forget....

You are right. And I'll point out that probably 80% of the PAC has a half dozen or so games since 2012 where they were blown out, and some research might find that it is closer to 90%. The concern occurs when you have a full season of those games, without quarantine-related depleted numbers.

 

[chipdouglas]

A few contenders:

2017- Cal 37 WSU 3. Game was never close but I'll concede it wasn't 28-0 after one quarter.
2017- UW 41 WSU 14. It was 24 -0 at half, 34-0 after three quarters. You can pick several AC games under Leach as non-competitive contests.
2013- Stanford 55 WSU 17. It was 38-3 after 3 quarters.
2012- Utah 49 WSU 6. It was 31-0 at half.
2012- ASU 46 WSU 7. It was 32-0 at half and 46-0 after 3 quarters.

I didn't even go back into the Paul Wulff years post 2008. I"m sure to find some gems more recent than SC 2008. I won't argue that the game Sunday was effectively decided by the end of the first quarter, but it's not alone as a clunker when you look at the past decade.

Glad Cougar

All good points. But as you say, 28-0 after 1 is rarefied air (ground?)