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Electoral College idiocy

Someone breaking into your home doesn't necessarily guarantee you the right to shoot and kill them. Self defense requires the admission that 1) you killed someone but 2) the level of action you took was necessary to protect yourself from harm. Any action taken after the threat has stopped is no longer self defense. Murder is never OK, but it is justifiable to use force to defend life. Even lethal force. Ultimately the second amendment is a right of self defense.

With regards to abortion and self defense, the discussion usually misses the point. In the case of a pregnant woman having cancer, it would not be immoral for her to undergo chemotherapy to treat the cancer. Even though the treatment would likely result in the death of her unborn child. But it would be immoral to have an abortion prior to undergoing treatment for the cancer. While the outcome is the same, the path taken to get there determines whether or not something is right or wrong.
Twist the scenario however you’d like, fine the perpetrators have guns on them and are an immediate threat to your life. Same question.

You lost me on your second thought. Either way you know the clear choice is end the pregnancy or die. Why does it matter if that happens through chemo or at a clinic? Seems like you aren’t at the extreme I’ve heard from some others as you clearly are in favor of the mother getting treatment but nobody else answered my question about the mother having 3 other kids. The extreme of this position believes those kids should grow up without a mom.

These are the same people who will trumpet mental health over common sense gun legislation (yes, they are both a problem). But F it, let’s force a family to lose its mother because of a political ideal, I’m sure that will do wonders for the psyche of impacted kids.

By the way I respect your approach and thoughts (Suudy too), some others here are quick to get emotional and start throwing around insults.
 
Doctors can't give a permission slip to do evil. Much as a police officer telling you so and so is a threat and you'd never be able to protect yourself if they broke into your home, so you should shoot them in the street to protect yourself and your family.
Time to move on! And yes I am pro choice, with reasonable time limits.

Sincerely, Nanny Loyal
 
Abortion is evil, wrong. etc. Anybody who believes in God, bible, etc, can't rightly believe that Abortion is ok.

That said Abortion can, does have some grey area, that can get lessened.

The core, crux of the Abortion issue, is when does a unborn baby become a SENTIENT SELF AWARE BEING?

Doctors, scientist, etc, say that happens sometime towards the end of 1st trimester, beginning of 2nd trimester of pregnancy.

There have been videos of late term abortions done where the videos show the fetus trying to avoid being aborted by moving around, away from abortion instrument, and where the fetus seems scared, feeling pain, etc.

If a unborn baby is SENTIENT, SELF AWARE, CAN FEEL, etc, and then if that baby is aborted, that is MURDER, if it's not a issue like life of the mother at risk, etc.

Because of that, while early term abortions are immoral, they should be LEGAL.

Midterm abortions can go either way, so can be legal, illegal.

Late term, especial partial birth Abortions should not only be illegal, but maybe even be illegal murder or manslaughter. A abortion can be done sooner, and it's a woman's choice to have sex, potentially have a baby, except in case of rape.

In Midterm abortions, exceptions for rape, incest, life of mother, etc.

In late term, partial birth abortions, life of mother exception.

There is a difference between immoral and illegal. So altho early term abortions are immoral, they shouldn't be illegal.

Women's choice can factor in, altho they say MY CHOICE, it's also their choice, responsibility, accountability, consequences, etc.

Also it's societal choice. That's why we have the Constitution. The constitution is, was created by God thru the founding fathers. It protects the rights, freedoms that people have. The constitution, correct interpretation thereof, says, that Abortion issue is up to the PEOPLE to decide by their LEGISLATORS. Whatever the LEGISLATORS say, Early term Abortions, should be legal, even tho immoral. Midterm Abortions can go either way, tho they are immoral. Late term, and Partial Birth Abortions should be murder, manslaughter, illegal, etc.
 
Abortion is evil, wrong. etc. Anybody who believes in God, bible, etc, can't rightly believe that Abortion is ok.

That said Abortion can, does have some grey area, that can get lessened.

The core, crux of the Abortion issue, is when does a unborn baby become a SENTIENT SELF AWARE BEING?

Doctors, scientist, etc, say that happens sometime towards the end of 1st trimester, beginning of 2nd trimester of pregnancy.

There have been videos of late term abortions done where the videos show the fetus trying to avoid being aborted by moving around, away from abortion instrument, and where the fetus seems scared, feeling pain, etc.

If a unborn baby is SENTIENT, SELF AWARE, CAN FEEL, etc, and then if that baby is aborted, that is MURDER, if it's not a issue like life of the mother at risk, etc.

Because of that, while early term abortions are immoral, they should be LEGAL.

Midterm abortions can go either way, so can be legal, illegal.

Late term, especial partial birth Abortions should not only be illegal, but maybe even be illegal murder or manslaughter. A abortion can be done sooner, and it's a woman's choice to have sex, potentially have a baby, except in case of rape.

In Midterm abortions, exceptions for rape, incest, life of mother, etc.

In late term, partial birth abortions, life of mother exception.

There is a difference between immoral and illegal. So altho early term abortions are immoral, they shouldn't be illegal.

Women's choice can factor in, altho they say MY CHOICE, it's also their choice, responsibility, accountability, consequences, etc.

Also it's societal choice. That's why we have the Constitution. The constitution is, was created by God thru the founding fathers. It protects the rights, freedoms that people have. The constitution, correct interpretation thereof, says, that Abortion issue is up to the PEOPLE to decide by their LEGISLATORS. Whatever the LEGISLATORS say, Early term Abortions, should be legal, even tho immoral. Midterm Abortions can go either way, tho they are immoral. Late term, and Partial Birth Abortions should be murder, manslaughter, illegal, etc.
The constitution was created by God? Missed that one in history class.
 
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Abortion is evil, wrong. etc. Anybody who believes in God, bible, etc, can't rightly believe that Abortion is ok.

That said Abortion can, does have some grey area, that can get lessened.

The core, crux of the Abortion issue, is when does a unborn baby become a SENTIENT SELF AWARE BEING?

Doctors, scientist, etc, say that happens sometime towards the end of 1st trimester, beginning of 2nd trimester of pregnancy.

There have been videos of late term abortions done where the videos show the fetus trying to avoid being aborted by moving around, away from abortion instrument, and where the fetus seems scared, feeling pain, etc.

If a unborn baby is SENTIENT, SELF AWARE, CAN FEEL, etc, and then if that baby is aborted, that is MURDER, if it's not a issue like life of the mother at risk, etc.

Because of that, while early term abortions are immoral, they should be LEGAL.

Midterm abortions can go either way, so can be legal, illegal.

Late term, especial partial birth Abortions should not only be illegal, but maybe even be illegal murder or manslaughter. A abortion can be done sooner, and it's a woman's choice to have sex, potentially have a baby, except in case of rape.

In Midterm abortions, exceptions for rape, incest, life of mother, etc.

In late term, partial birth abortions, life of mother exception.

There is a difference between immoral and illegal. So altho early term abortions are immoral, they shouldn't be illegal.

Women's choice can factor in, altho they say MY CHOICE, it's also their choice, responsibility, accountability, consequences, etc.

Also it's societal choice. That's why we have the Constitution. The constitution is, was created by God thru the founding fathers. It protects the rights, freedoms that people have. The constitution, correct interpretation thereof, says, that Abortion issue is up to the PEOPLE to decide by their LEGISLATORS. Whatever the LEGISLATORS say, Early term Abortions, should be legal, even tho immoral. Midterm Abortions can go either way, tho they are immoral. Late term, and Partial Birth Abortions should be murder, manslaughter, illegal, etc.
Mik… I took you as someone who supported the death penalty .
 
The constitution was created by God? Missed that one in history class.

God INSPIRED the FOUNDING FATHERS thru the Holy Ghost Spirit of God, revelation to their minds, heart, souls, etc, to create the constitution, even if they were not aware of that happening.

Also God is mentioned in the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS(AKA Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc)

In God We Trust is on coins, etc. God worked thru the Founding Fathers to create this Nation.

And the reason why is that it's harder for people to choose to follow God, if a King, Dictator, tries to force people to not follow, believe in God.

A group of Native American Indians ambushed George Washington in Revolution War. They were trying to Kill him specifically. There was no way that all those fired shots should have missed. And there was bullet holes in George Washington's clothing. They said they left because it was obvious that the GREAT SPIRIT(God), was protecting George Washington.

God created this nation, and the Constitution.
 
God INSPIRED the FOUNDING FATHERS thru the Holy Ghost Spirit of God, revelation to their minds, heart, souls, etc, to create the constitution, even if they were not aware of that happening.

Also God is mentioned in the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS(AKA Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc)

In God We Trust is on coins, etc. God worked thru the Founding Fathers to create this Nation.

And the reason why is that it's harder for people to choose to follow God, if a King, Dictator, tries to force people to not follow, believe in God.

A group of Native American Indians ambushed George Washington in Revolution War. They were trying to Kill him specifically. There was no way that all those fired shots should have missed. And there was bullet holes in George Washington's clothing. They said they left because it was obvious that the GREAT SPIRIT(God), was protecting George Washington.

God created this nation, and the Constitution.
I could mention a turd in a legal contract it doesn’t mean the turd inspired the verbiage in the contract.

I’m a Methodist Christian Mik. I have faith. Just because God is integrated into our documents, currency, etc doesn’t mean God created the nation and the constitution. People did. Faith in something greater than themselves may have inspired them but you’re taking quite the leap with that.

would you call the US a Christian country? Do you believe in separation of church and state? How do you feel about the first amendment? Do you believe we should keep people out of the country who aren’t Christian?
 
I could mention a turd in a legal contract it doesn’t mean the turd inspired the verbiage in the contract.

I’m a Methodist Christian Mik. I have faith. Just because God is integrated into our documents, currency, etc doesn’t mean God created the nation and the constitution. People did. Faith in something greater than themselves may have inspired them but you’re taking quite the leap with that.

would you call the US a Christian country? Do you believe in separation of church and state? How do you feel about the first amendment? Do you believe we should keep people out of the country who aren’t Christian?
Well at least we are moving past abortion. I hope.

Mik, your God post is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If this God guy (or gal) is so powerful, how come he/she has done nothing about the Ukraine and Israel situations? Or a zillion previous situations? Like Hitler and WWII? You ever think about seeing a doctor and maybe getting some meds?

P.S. I'm having fun renaming my threads as the topic morphs. Others should try it. :)
 
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HINT: you don’t know me, what my motivations are, or what I’m thinking.
sure he does, because you said you lean right, so Flat gets to pigeon hole you as whatever he thinks that is, but Flat being better than you is a well thought out, nuanced conservative with opinions that trump yours because reasons.
 
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Someone breaking into your home doesn't necessarily guarantee you the right to shoot and kill them. Self defense requires the admission that 1) you killed someone but 2) the level of action you took was necessary to protect yourself from harm. Any action taken after the threat has stopped is no longer self defense. Murder is never OK, but it is justifiable to use force to defend life. Even lethal force. Ultimately the second amendment is a right of self defense.

With regards to abortion and self defense, the discussion usually misses the point. In the case of a pregnant woman having cancer, it would not be immoral for her to undergo chemotherapy to treat the cancer. Even though the treatment would likely result in the death of her unborn child. But it would be immoral to have an abortion prior to undergoing treatment for the cancer. While the outcome is the same, the path taken to get there determines whether or not something is right or wrong.
I don’t see your logic here. If the chemo is going to kill the baby, how is that any different than aborting the pregnancy to let the mom take the chemo?

Seems like a rapid termination should be preferable to poisoning the baby over some length of time. It’s also likely medically expedient for the mother, so her body isn’t using resources to support a baby that isn’t going to make it.

Similar scenario - the chemo will kill the baby, but without the chemo the mother won’t live long enough to deliver. Either way the baby dies, does the mother also have to sacrifice herself to avoid being labeled immoral by the conservative Christians?
 
Mik… I took you as someone who supported the death penalty .

Death Penalty issue is kind of like the Abortion issue with seeming grey area.

I believe in Justice and mercy. I believe that the Death Penalty is, can be just, justice, and act as a deterrent. I believe Death Penalty should be reserved for the worst killings, murders, serial killers, repeat offenders, mass murderers, etc. The reason I don't support the death penalty for ALL killings, Murders, is that some murders, killings, are crimes of passion, in HEAT of moment, and some murders are done by the mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs, etc.

The other issues with Death Penalty is how innocent people are wrongly found guilty. to avoid that, no one convicted on purely circumstancial evidence, etc, they shouldn't get the Death Penalty. And Death Penalty cases should get multiple appeals, and even if appeals exhausted, new evidence, DNA, etc, should be able to be used to try to avoid Death Penalty.

That's also why Death Penalty should primarily be for Mass Murderers, Repeat murderers, etc, as they are guilty, and no possibility of using the Death Penalty on a innocent person.

Death Penalty, should only be done by a non cruel, non, less painful method like lethal injection.

To those against Death Penalty in all cases no matter what, because of their religious beliefs in mercy, remember Christ upon the cross told the thief upon the cross that he would be with Jesus in Paradise AFTER he was dead upon the cross.

Jesus could have saved the thief from death, but part of the reason why Jesus didn't was that the thief had to experience JUSTICE, before he could get MERCY. Jesus is BOTH JUST AND MERCIFUL.

The Death Penalty issue is not a easy issue and is a hard issue, and there is a lot of seemingly grey areas, nuances, etc.

So I support Death Penalty overall, and death penalty in some cases, and mercy in other cases, and I support Death Penalty and Justice and Mercy.
 
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God INSPIRED the FOUNDING FATHERS thru the Holy Ghost Spirit of God, revelation to their minds, heart, souls, etc, to create the constitution, even if they were not aware of that happening.

Also God is mentioned in the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS(AKA Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc)

In God We Trust is on coins, etc. God worked thru the Founding Fathers to create this Nation.

And the reason why is that it's harder for people to choose to follow God, if a King, Dictator, tries to force people to not follow, believe in God.

A group of Native American Indians ambushed George Washington in Revolution War. They were trying to Kill him specifically. There was no way that all those fired shots should have missed. And there was bullet holes in George Washington's clothing. They said they left because it was obvious that the GREAT SPIRIT(God), was protecting George Washington.

God created this nation, and the Constitution.
All this is merely your "belief" and no binding authority in how we interpret and enforce our laws in any way.

The terms you are referring to regarding "God" being mentioned in founding documents are terms like "creator" and "providence". You are clearly taking these to mean a specific "Christian" concept that you are reading into.

God in any form is completely absent from the Constitution. It is an entirely secular document. Same goes for the BILL OF RIGHTS and all additional amendments.

IN GOD WE TRUST didn't make an appearance until 1954 and had nothing to do with the founding fathers. Taihtsat
 
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Well at least we are moving past abortion. I hope.

Mik, your God post is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If this God guy (or gal) is so powerful, how come he/she has done nothing about the Ukraine and Israel situations? Or a zillion previous situations? Like Hitler and WWII? You ever think about seeing a doctor and maybe getting some meds?

P.S. I'm having fun renaming my threads as the topic morphs. Others should try it. :)
Not only that but despite your beliefs it’s incredibly arrogant to say everyone else in the world who doesn’t support your viewpoint is wrong. Any Religion is based on faith and always will be. There’s no proof and never will be. And the Bible isn’t proof, just like the Koran or Book of Mormon they are all a series of stories compiled by people over hundreds of years. There’s no more proof of God then there is of Lochness or Bigfoot.
 
sure he does, because you said you lean right, so Flat gets to pigeon hole you as whatever he thinks that is, but Flat being better than you is a well thought out, nuanced conservative with opinions that trump yours because reasons.
No, Suudy said he was a right winger. But he misspelled it - the proper spelling is wingnut.
 
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God INSPIRED the FOUNDING FATHERS thru the Holy Ghost Spirit of God, revelation to their minds, heart, souls, etc, to create the constitution, even if they were not aware of that happening.

Also God is mentioned in the FOUNDING DOCUMENTS(AKA Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc)

In God We Trust is on coins, etc. God worked thru the Founding Fathers to create this Nation.

And the reason why is that it's harder for people to choose to follow God, if a King, Dictator, tries to force people to not follow, believe in God.

A group of Native American Indians ambushed George Washington in Revolution War. They were trying to Kill him specifically. There was no way that all those fired shots should have missed. And there was bullet holes in George Washington's clothing. They said they left because it was obvious that the GREAT SPIRIT(God), was protecting George Washington.

God created this nation, and the Constitution.
That’s one of your most ridiculous posts ever, and that’s saying something. Most of the founding fathers were inspired by money, not by God. But in that era, it was much easier to sell the populace on divine providence.

As for George, I’ve never heard and can’t find any hint of that story. I think you’re mixing your Wyatt Earp legends with your George Washington.
 
Not only that but despite your beliefs it’s incredibly arrogant to say everyone else in the world who doesn’t support your viewpoint is wrong. Any Religion is based on faith and always will be. There’s no proof and never will be. And the Bible isn’t proof, just like the Koran or Book of Mormon they are all a series of stories compiled by people over hundreds of years. There’s no more proof of God then there is of Lochness or Bigfoot.
Pretty sure you meant to reply to Mik, not me. Although I do fit the bolded part above. To a T.
 
I could mention a turd in a legal contract it doesn’t mean the turd inspired the verbiage in the contract.

I’m a Methodist Christian Mik. I have faith. Just because God is integrated into our documents, currency, etc doesn’t mean God created the nation and the constitution. People did. Faith in something greater than themselves may have inspired them but you’re taking quite the leap with that.

would you call the US a Christian country? Do you believe in separation of church and state? How do you feel about the first amendment? Do you believe we should keep people out of the country who aren’t Christian?

I believe the USA was primarily founded by Christians, and has a current majority that either believe in God, or are Christians, and so is a Christian, God believing nation in that sense.

I don't believe that non Christians should be kept out.

And the separation of church and state thing wasn't officially in founding documents.

It came out of the Dansbury baptist or Methodist letter.

The Methodist or Baptist or both, did not want the USA govt to use govt to have favoritism toward any religion, sect, religious belief.

Later on USA Govt, people have falsely claimed that USA govt, founding documents has Separation of Church and State in it.

While I do support separation of Church and State, that does not mean that no prayer in schools, does not mean a town govt can't put up a Christmas Tree, etc.

It just means that Govt can't or shouldn't advocate one religious belief over another.

If Satanist complain about a town Christmas Tree, then they should be able to put up a town Satanist thing,Rather then taking the town Christmas tree down on separation of Church and State grounds.

And just because I believe in God, does not mean that I don't believe in free speech 1st amendment.

And since God created the country, constitution, then that means that God also created the 1st amendment.

So I believe in free speech 1st amendment
 
I believe the USA was primarily founded by Christians, and has a current majority that either believe in God, or are Christians, and so is a Christian, God believing nation in that sense.

I don't believe that non Christians should be kept out.

And the separation of church and state thing wasn't officially in founding documents.

It came out of the Dansbury baptist or Methodist letter.

The Methodist or Baptist or both, did not want the USA govt to use govt to have favoritism toward any religion, sect, religious belief.

Later on USA Govt, people have falsely claimed that USA govt, founding documents has Separation of Church and State in it.

While I do support separation of Church and State, that does not mean that no prayer in schools, does not mean a town govt can't put up a Christmas Tree, etc.

It just means that Govt can't or shouldn't advocate one religious belief over another.

If Satanist complain about a town Christmas Tree, then they should be able to put up a town Satanist thing,Rather then taking the town Christmas tree down on separation of Church and State grounds.

And just because I believe in God, does not mean that I don't believe in free speech 1st amendment.

And since God created the country, constitution, then that means that God also created the 1st amendment.

So I believe in free speech 1st amendment
Literally means that. Why should prayer to God be forced on kids in a public school paid for by the state/tax payers of all religions? You want that send your kids to a private school.

The Christmas tree thing…whatever it’s a symbol. It’s not an idol you pray to. There’s people who celebrate Christmas who are atheists. I appreciate people who still celebrate it in a biblical sense but it’s commercialized here like everything else, it’s presents, food, and sports on TV. I don’t see trees or lights as religious. Put a nativity scene out in front of the school that’s a different deal.
 
No, Suudy said he was a right winger. But he misspelled it - the proper spelling is wingnut.
We're all of the age that right and left wing simply meant right or left of center. There wasn't "fringe" or "extreme" because it wasn't necessary to use those terms because those people were just crazy assholes, and everyone knew it. I refuse to give in to the rhetoric of the political machine that wants to dictate not only what we thing but what we say.
 
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I believe the USA was primarily founded by Christians, and has a current majority that either believe in God, or are Christians, and so is a Christian, God believing nation in that sense.

And the separation of church and state thing wasn't officially in founding documents.

Later on USA Govt, people have falsely claimed that USA govt, founding documents has Separation of Church and State in it.

While I do support separation of Church and State, that does not mean that no prayer in schools, does not mean a town govt can't put up a Christmas Tree, etc.

If Satanist complain about a town Christmas Tree, then they should be able to put up a town Satanist thing,Rather then taking the town Christmas tree down on separation of Church and State grounds.

And since God created the country, constitution, then that means that God also created the 1st amendment.

So I believe in free speech 1st amendment

While about 70% of US citizens report some sort of Christian background, the percentage who are observant is quite a bit lower - and falling. The percentage who believe in "God" hit a record low last year, and the percentage who believe in the Biblical version hovers near 50%.

Separation of church & state is in the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." I'd say that's officially in founding documents. And while it doesn't explicitly say no prayer in schools, it makes it somewhere between impractical and unreasonable. You've either got to pray to all of the gods represented by attendees, or to none of them. And, since schools are tax supported, why who a Hindu taxpayer want to support praying to a Christian God, or why would an Atheist want to support praying to any? Much more expedient - and a better use of time - to dispense with school prayer, and let kids and families take care of their own prayers.

Same for Christmas trees. If a government is going to put one up, they should also put up a menorah and whatever other symbols represent their people. More practical to not do anything.

God didn't create the country or the constitution. Or the people or the earth, and probably nothing else. Although, if I accepted that, at least I'd know who to blame.
 
meanwhile, since the day of the supposed "inauguration" back in 2021, the White House goes completely dark every single night at 8pm eastern time......every single night....check it out for several nights...nobody is there....but don't believe your lying eyes...
 
meanwhile, since the day of the supposed "inauguration" back in 2021, the White House goes completely dark every single night at 8pm eastern time......every single night....check it out for several nights...nobody is there....but don't believe your lying eyes...
Well, for someone Joe's age, dinner is probably at 4:30, and he's in bed by 7.
 
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Well at least we are moving past abortion. I hope.

Mik, your God post is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. If this God guy (or gal) is so powerful, how come he/she has done nothing about the Ukraine and Israel situations? Or a zillion previous situations? Like Hitler and WWII? You ever think about seeing a doctor and maybe getting some meds?

P.S. I'm having fun renaming my threads as the topic morphs. Others should try it. :)

Dude do you realize that because your saying that I believe in God, and not a atheist or agnostic like you, that I am crazy, and should be on meds, etc, because of my belief in God, that you are also saying, whether you realize it or not that all who also believe in God are crazy, should be medicated.

It's that type of thinking, sayings, that have led to persecution of those who believe in God.

I'm not going to get into a argument, debate, long winded discussion with you on about this.

But I will say this. There is a thing called Free Agency and accountability.

People do horribly evil things,vand sometimes God lets people do those things, because of Free Agency, and then afterwards, God holds them responsible, accountable, either let's them experience consequences, or punishes them accordingly.

Sometimes evil people seem to get away with the horrible things they do. But in such cases they will eventually be judged, etc,even if it does not happen until after they die after a long life.

It's kind of like how sometimes as a parent, you sometimes let bad things happen to your children, because sometimes your children have to make choices, experience consequences, on their own, without your interference, etc.

God as our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Parent, sometimes does the same with us.

The other thing is that there is the bigger picture thing, kind of like the sci Fi Star Trek kind of thing where if you can time travel in past, and could prevent a extremely horrible thing from happening, would you, should you? The answer should be no, because what if one of the people you save becomes the next Hitler, etc.

God knows the whole picture. Yes God could stop a attrocity, death, etc, that a person does, but maybe God doesn't stop it, because maybe the victim would have become a Hitler.

Also remember it's NOT God who is doing this, these bad things. It is people who are choosing to do these bad things, not God.

Another reason God doesn't step in, stop things sometimes, is say a person is victimized, suffers, etc, due to another person, and say that adversity forges that person into becoming a force for good, doing good things, etc.

The other thing is that if, since there is a heaven, that a person getting killed, while can, is a bad thing, the going to heaven part is a good thing.

The other thing about this is that we don't know everything, we don't know why bad stuff happens to specific good people. Things don't always make sense.

That's where seeing good in addition to seeing bad, and where seeing the good things God has done, faith comes into play.

Ultimately belief in God is a faith thing, because science will probably not prove God exist, etc.

The only way to know, believe in God, is to pray to God, have God answer your prayers, see or experience miracles, see, get blessings, have faith, exercise faith, etc.

Now some scientific things can seem to maybe prove that God exist.

But it's almost impossible to absolutely prove that God exist scientifically, etc, beyond all, any doubt, etc

The only way that can prove God exist to oneself is to read bible, scriptures, pray, have faith, get answers, see blessings, miracles, holy Spirit of God, etc.

People who believe in God are not crazy and should not be on meds, should not be persecuted.

Just like non believers, atheist, agnostics, etc, no one, etc, should not be persecuted for their beliefs.
 
Not only that but despite your beliefs it’s incredibly arrogant to say everyone else in the world who doesn’t support your viewpoint is wrong. Any Religion is based on faith and always will be. There’s no proof and never will be. And the Bible isn’t proof, just like the Koran or Book of Mormon they are all a series of stories compiled by people over hundreds of years. There’s no more proof of God then there is of Lochness or Bigfoot.

I either did not say or did not mean to say that anyone else who doesn't share my view point is wrong.

And there is a difference between thinking people are wrong, or are in error, and saying it out loud.

If I or anyone else is saying out loud that people are wrong, in a arrogant, egotistical way, lording it over them, thinking we are better then them, being prideful, etc, that is wrong to do, and God says not to do that.

But that said, we make judgement calls on what we think is right and wrong.

Yes there is no way to prove anything about God, except through the way that mentioned to loyal(For reference you can read that if want).

People have different viewpoints. People are usually trying the best they can. Because of that, there should be understanding, tolerance, acceptance, etc, of differing viewpoints(That does not mean that have to agree with differing viewpoints)

And it's ok to say what your beliefs are, and that you disagree with a differing viewpoints, and that you think the different view is wrong.

And it's ok to explain why you think something, or some person, etc, is wrong about something, and to use logic, thought process, facts, extrapolation, etc, etc.

And if somebody does that, that does not mean that they are arrogant, egotistical, prideful, etc, etc.
 
While about 70% of US citizens report some sort of Christian background, the percentage who are observant is quite a bit lower - and falling. The percentage who believe in "God" hit a record low last year, and the percentage who believe in the Biblical version hovers near 50%.

Separation of church & state is in the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." I'd say that's officially in founding documents. And while it doesn't explicitly say no prayer in schools, it makes it somewhere between impractical and unreasonable. You've either got to pray to all of the gods represented by attendees, or to none of them. And, since schools are tax supported, why who a Hindu taxpayer want to support praying to a Christian God, or why would an Atheist want to support praying to any? Much more expedient - and a better use of time - to dispense with school prayer, and let kids and families take care of their own prayers.

Same for Christmas trees. If a government is going to put one up, they should also put up a menorah and whatever other symbols represent their people. More practical to not do anything.

God didn't create the country or the constitution. Or the people or the earth, and probably nothing else. Although, if I accepted that, at least I'd know who to blame.

While the first amendment says that the govt should not start a state sponsored religion, which is what the first amendment wording means, it does not say SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

The founding fathers were against the state sponsoring a official state sponsored religion, church

That's why the Dansbury Baptist or Methodist letter mentioned Separation of Church and State.

The schools, govt, etc, should not sponsor a official religion, religious belief, prayer, etc.

But if the people want the govt can offer the opportunity, if people want, to have a Christmas tree, prayer, etc, as long as they are not being discriminatory, as long as not excluding other beliefs, as long as not setting up a official religion, belief OVER another religion belief.

If people want to pray, put up a Christmas tree, etc, LET THEM.

But if a school or specific teacher, or govt wants to force kids to pray, and have a official religion or official religious belief, that's not ok, that's not allowed, and that shouldn't be allowed.

And if the govt wants to partner up with a religious charity, non profit to do good, like ending homelessness, etc, that should be allowed and is allowed.
 
It is a very emotional issue . Do you believe it is easy for those who chose to have one ?

Let me ask you the following scenario . If i was a woman , and i was raped but say i live in Indiana . And i am determined not to carry out my pregnancy . I am so distraught i attempt to take my life .

I survive but because of my actions should i be charged with murder or manslaughter ? Why or why not .
You could frame it as an “emotional issue” but it would be more accurate to frame it as oppression by an extremist religious minority.
 
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Literally means that. Why should prayer to God be forced on kids in a public school paid for by the state/tax payers of all religions? You want that send your kids to a private school.

The Christmas tree thing…whatever it’s a symbol. It’s not an idol you pray to. There’s people who celebrate Christmas who are atheists. I appreciate people who still celebrate it in a biblical sense but it’s commercialized here like everything else, it’s presents, food, and sports on TV. I don’t see trees or lights as religious. Put a nativity scene out in front of the school that’s a different deal.

If the school forces kids to pray, or puts up a Nativity scene, that's not allowed.

If kids CHOOSE to pray because they WANT to, that's allowed.

If kids or a group of kids form a Christian club, and then put up a Nativity Scene that can be, is allowed.

If govt wants to partner up with various religious charities, non profits to do good things like ending homelessness, that can be, is allowed.

Separation of Church and State came from the Dansbury letter, not the founding documents.

And the intention of the first amendment is to make it so that the Govt does NOT set up, sponsor a state sponsored religion, like say making the Baptist the official govt religion, etc,which is why the Dansbury letter came out with the phrase Separation of Church and State to speak out against that.

The intention is not to forbid the govt from ever having anything to do with religion, religious beliefs in general, like praying, those beliefs mentioned, working with religions to end homelessness, etc, as long as don't prop up 1 religion, belief, OVER another, and as long as provide equal opportunity for ALL religious beliefs.

That means that if a school wants to sponsor a opportunity for a prayer to be said, they have to give a free equal opportunity for all to do the same if they want to, because if they don't, they are propping up 1 religion, religious belief OVER another, which is NOT allowed.

Basically it boils down to if people want to pray, etc, LET THEM.

If govt, schools want to force to pray, that's not allowed.
 
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Dude do you realize that because your saying that I believe in God, and not a atheist or agnostic like you, that I am crazy, and should be on meds, etc, because of my belief in God, that you are also saying, whether you realize it or not that all who also believe in God are crazy, should be medicated.

It's that type of thinking, sayings, that have led to persecution of those who believe in God.

I'm not going to get into a argument, debate, long winded discussion with you on about this.

But I will say this. There is a thing called Free Agency and accountability.

People do horribly evil things,vand sometimes God lets people do those things, because of Free Agency, and then afterwards, God holds them responsible, accountable, either let's them experience consequences, or punishes them accordingly.

Sometimes evil people seem to get away with the horrible things they do. But in such cases they will eventually be judged, etc,even if it does not happen until after they die after a long life.

It's kind of like how sometimes as a parent, you sometimes let bad things happen to your children, because sometimes your children have to make choices, experience consequences, on their own, without your interference, etc.

God as our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Parent, sometimes does the same with us.

The other thing is that there is the bigger picture thing, kind of like the sci Fi Star Trek kind of thing where if you can time travel in past, and could prevent a extremely horrible thing from happening, would you, should you? The answer should be no, because what if one of the people you save becomes the next Hitler, etc.

God knows the whole picture. Yes God could stop a attrocity, death, etc, that a person does, but maybe God doesn't stop it, because maybe the victim would have become a Hitler.

Also remember it's NOT God who is doing this, these bad things. It is people who are choosing to do these bad things, not God.

Another reason God doesn't step in, stop things sometimes, is say a person is victimized, suffers, etc, due to another person, and say that adversity forges that person into becoming a force for good, doing good things, etc.

The other thing is that if, since there is a heaven, that a person getting killed, while can, is a bad thing, the going to heaven part is a good thing.

The other thing about this is that we don't know everything, we don't know why bad stuff happens to specific good people. Things don't always make sense.

That's where seeing good in addition to seeing bad, and where seeing the good things God has done, faith comes into play.

Ultimately belief in God is a faith thing, because science will probably not prove God exist, etc.

The only way to know, believe in God, is to pray to God, have God answer your prayers, see or experience miracles, see, get blessings, have faith, exercise faith, etc.

Now some scientific things can seem to maybe prove that God exist.

But it's almost impossible to absolutely prove that God exist scientifically, etc, beyond all, any doubt, etc

The only way that can prove God exist to oneself is to read bible, scriptures, pray, have faith, get answers, see blessings, miracles, holy Spirit of God, etc.

People who believe in God are not crazy and should not be on meds, should not be persecuted.

Just like non believers, atheist, agnostics, etc, no one, etc, should not be persecuted for their beliefs.
The whole concept of God is absurd
 
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Dude do you realize that because your saying that I believe in God, and not a atheist or agnostic like you, that I am crazy, and should be on meds, etc, because of my belief in God, that you are also saying, whether you realize it or not that all who also believe in God are crazy, should be medicated.

It's that type of thinking, sayings, that have led to persecution of those who believe in God.

I'm not going to get into a argument, debate, long winded discussion with you on about this.

But I will say this. There is a thing called Free Agency and accountability.

People do horribly evil things,vand sometimes God lets people do those things, because of Free Agency, and then afterwards, God holds them responsible, accountable, either let's them experience consequences, or punishes them accordingly.

Sometimes evil people seem to get away with the horrible things they do. But in such cases they will eventually be judged, etc,even if it does not happen until after they die after a long life.

It's kind of like how sometimes as a parent, you sometimes let bad things happen to your children, because sometimes your children have to make choices, experience consequences, on their own, without your interference, etc.

God as our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Parent, sometimes does the same with us.

The other thing is that there is the bigger picture thing, kind of like the sci Fi Star Trek kind of thing where if you can time travel in past, and could prevent a extremely horrible thing from happening, would you, should you? The answer should be no, because what if one of the people you save becomes the next Hitler, etc.

God knows the whole picture. Yes God could stop a attrocity, death, etc, that a person does, but maybe God doesn't stop it, because maybe the victim would have become a Hitler.

Also remember it's NOT God who is doing this, these bad things. It is people who are choosing to do these bad things, not God.

Another reason God doesn't step in, stop things sometimes, is say a person is victimized, suffers, etc, due to another person, and say that adversity forges that person into becoming a force for good, doing good things, etc.

The other thing is that if, since there is a heaven, that a person getting killed, while can, is a bad thing, the going to heaven part is a good thing.

The other thing about this is that we don't know everything, we don't know why bad stuff happens to specific good people. Things don't always make sense.

That's where seeing good in addition to seeing bad, and where seeing the good things God has done, faith comes into play.

Ultimately belief in God is a faith thing, because science will probably not prove God exist, etc.

The only way to know, believe in God, is to pray to God, have God answer your prayers, see or experience miracles, see, get blessings, have faith, exercise faith, etc.

Now some scientific things can seem to maybe prove that God exist.

But it's almost impossible to absolutely prove that God exist scientifically, etc, beyond all, any doubt, etc

The only way that can prove God exist to oneself is to read bible, scriptures, pray, have faith, get answers, see blessings, miracles, holy Spirit of God, etc.

People who believe in God are not crazy and should not be on meds, should not be persecuted.

Just like non believers, atheist, agnostics, etc, no one, etc, should not be persecuted for their beliefs.
It's kind of like how sometimes as a parent, you sometimes let bad things happen to your children, because sometimes your children have to make choices, experience consequences, on their own, without your interference, etc.

God as our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Parent, sometimes does the same with us.


Any parent that would purposely allow their child to be physically harmed when they could have prevented that, is a p!3c€ ©f shit.

Another reason God doesn't step in, stop things sometimes, is say a person is victimized, suffers, etc, due to another person, and say that adversity forges that person into becoming a force for good, doing good things, etc.

So you are saying you believe God purposely uses people for suffering and pain - some to the point of death - to bring about an outcome that he couldn't have brought about in ANY other way? Isn't that a violation of their "free agency" ultimately?

That is not supreme love, compassion or benevolence. Taihtsat
 
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The whole concept of God is absurd
Eh. For the most part I think it helps people find purpose in life, be better people, etc. problem is the concept of religion creates the perfect ingredients for cults, persecution, and frauds like Paula Jones and Jerry Falwell taking peoples money.

As someone who was raised a Christian, it’s embarrassing to see some of the scum in our country who call themselves Christian. I imagine not much different than the embarrassment of Muslims to extremist groups like Isis and the Taliban.
 
While the first amendment says that the govt should not start a state sponsored religion, which is what the first amendment wording means, it does not say SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

The founding fathers were against the state sponsoring a official state sponsored religion, church

That's why the Dansbury Baptist or Methodist letter mentioned Separation of Church and State.

The schools, govt, etc, should not sponsor a official religion, religious belief, prayer, etc.
Huh, Mik:

Well gee, I found and posted the Danbury Baptist (get your spelling right) letter, and I don't see the words Separation of Church and State. Maybe your eyes are sharper than mine.

Also note that Jefferson's reply (excerpt copied below) DOES mention the Separation of Church and State, but in the context of that is what the constitution says, just using other words.


" I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ʺmake no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,ʺ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

So yeah reconsider getting on meds, and be true to your comment about 5 of your posts ago where you said I'm not going to get into a argument, debate, long winded discussion with you on about this. Sure looks like you forgot you said that.
 
Eh. For the most part I think it helps people find purpose in life, be better people, etc. problem is the concept of religion creates the perfect ingredients for cults, persecution, and frauds like Paula Jones and Jerry Falwell taking peoples money.

As someone who was raised a Christian, it’s embarrassing to see some of the scum in our country who call themselves Christian. I imagine not much different than the embarrassment of Muslims to extremist groups like Isis and the Taliban.
Hey, no need to refer to Catholics in such demeaning terms..... :) Or Sunday Catholics as I call them.
 
Doctors can't give a permission slip to do evil. Much as a police officer telling you so and so is a threat and you'd never be able to protect yourself if they broke into your home, so you should shoot them in the street to protect yourself and your family.

For the record, a police officer is never going to tell you to shoot someone in the street in a pre-emptive strike...so please don't use stupid examples to make your point. It really makes your entire viewpoint seem kind of stupid....which it is....so it's kind of fitting.
 
For the record, a police officer is never going to tell you to shoot someone in the street in a pre-emptive strike...so please don't use stupid examples to make your point. It really makes your entire viewpoint seem kind of stupid....which it is....so it's kind of fitting.
Not even Trump?
 
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