You’re still dodging the question of whether Fauci lied.
You throwing Trump into a discussion about whether Fauci lied is whataboutism. So your hypocrisy is at a level seen far too often.
I’m looking forward to
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You’re still dodging the question of whether Fauci lied.
You throwing Trump into a discussion about whether Fauci lied is whataboutism. So your hypocrisy is at a level seen far too often.
d(newsmax)gibbons
I see Crimson gave you a little assist...
Do you have FDS?
Simple, I'll blame whomever is most responsible regardless of ideology or party.
Regarding your "unconstitutional" flail, according to your logic, a newly passed law is not constitutional simply because it hasn't been enforced yet. For your argument to be successful you should easily be able to provide supreme court decisions to prove it. Simple.
Trump announced the banning of transgender Americans serving in the military on twitter:
As Capitan America said..."I can do this all day".Trump Tweets That Transgender People Banned From U.S. Military
Trump Tweets That Transgender People Banned From U.S. Militarywww.nhpr.org
And no, I'm not going to "follow" Biden on Twitter. I don't follow anyone. Twitter is the bathroom wall of social media.
Last question: who has more federal power, Fauci or the POTUS?
Is FDS a typo or am I supposed to figure out what it means? Making an announcement on social media is pretty common these days. Would you have a preferred a press release rather than tweet? They're basically the same thing. Keep doing it all day if that floats your boat.
Remember up above where I linked a CNN legal analyst that said a mask mandate wouldn't pass constitutional muster? You're still of the opinion that the federal government can shut down a state, forcibly quarantine or take the other actions you're pining for. Again, if the government has the power you think it does, why isn't it using that power in the midst of the worst public health crisis in 100 years? That's compounded by your refusal to cite any cases. You've misinterpreted "my logic" and cannot even explain your own. Since you require clarification- a law being on the books does not mean it is constitutional. A law must be on the books before it can be challenged in court. For example, the Logan Act could obviously face First Amendment Challenges. Obamacare is mired in constitutional challenges, and the Supreme Court said the mandate would have violated the Commerce Clause if memory serves. Federal Courts are prohibited from issuing advisory opinions, there must be a case and controversy.
I have a feeling your last question won't be your last question, since you've already said you were quitting on this thread, but I will you. Trump is the President of the United States. Of course he has more power than the director of NIAID. Fauci is a bureaucrat. Not sure what that has to do with anything. You may have noticed that Fauci is being interviewed constantly. He certainly has influence, and people certainly listen to him. In the clip I linked above the reporter even pointed out to Fauci that people were going to do what he said. And yet he lied about there being no reason to wear masks. He knew the virus was airborne. He's been an infectious disease expert for around 50 years.
On a side note- I hope you're not a doctor. There are plenty of health problems out there other than Covid. You appear to have been indoctrinated.
Well, since this thread is happening anyway, I might as well get this out there:
Can someone who believes so please explain to me how Trump is personally responsible for every single Covid death in this country? I keep seeing memes about "350,000 deaths, all Trumps fault" or "Trump lied, 350,000 died" all over the web (which is my fault for being in places I said I wouldn't go... but I digress), but for the life of me I can't figure out the justification. I'm failing to see what he could have done differently to save 350,000 people, because that seems to be the notion is that Covid is one or the other: either no one dies or 350,000 die. I say that because I also believe that even if 10,000 people died the sentiment that Trump personally killed each and every one of those souls would still exist.
Or put another way: what would have been the ideal scenario NOT involving Trump and what would those death numbers look like. Please be explicit on how to control the spread of a pandemic in a country of 330MM supported by evidence of how these methods have worked elsewhere.
Can someone who believes so please explain to me how Trump is personally responsible for every single Covid death in this country? I keep seeing memes about "350,000 deaths, all Trumps fault" or "Trump lied, 350,000 died" all over the web (which is my fault for being in places I said I wouldn't go... but I digress), but for the life of me I can't figure out the justification. I'm failing to see what he could have done differently to save 350,000 people, because that seems to be the notion is that Covid is one or the other: either no one dies or 350,000 die. I say that because I also believe that even if 10,000 people died the sentiment that Trump personally killed each and every one of those souls would still exist.
Or put another way: what would have been the ideal scenario NOT involving Trump and what would those death numbers look like. Please be explicit on how to control the spread of a pandemic in a country of 330MM supported by evidence of how these methods have worked elsewhere.
d(newsmax)gibbons
Here's some hypocrisy for you. You said earlier in this thread:
"This seems relevant to add to the discussion. Fauci has been lying about the level of vaccination needed to reach herd immunity. Apparently polling plays a role in the science."
You were the first one to bring up Fauci in a discussion that originally only mentioned Inslee. That's all I have to say about that.
Maybe you and Ed can get together and practice replying properly.
Would you like to answer for longtime? Did Fauci lie or not?
FDS is Fauci derangement syndrome. Seemed pretty obvious.
I would prefer a more official announcement in keeping with tradition and precedent, especially when dealing with a potential CIVIL rights issue. And you are moving the goalposts again. You asked "what policy has trump tweeted", all I Did was answer with a specific example.
I have not advocated for a national mask mandate anywhere in this thread. Australia hasn't even done that as far as I can tell in any search. If you can show me where they instituted a national mask mandate I'll gladly stand corrected. Certain state's have, just like certain US governors have here. Whether it would pass a constitutional challenge is unknown. But in the statutes I posted, masks aren't mentioned. BUT, quarantines are mentioned and the military can be used to enforce them - statutoraly. Not sure how much clearer I can be: these are tools that are in the tool box that COULD have been tried. All of them listed were used by Australia so that is a fair comparison. Now, as to WHY the government hasn't during this time, my best educated guess goes back to when trump said he wasn't responsible- that the state's were responsible because he knew it would crater the economy and HE didn't want to be responsible.
When you say I "refuse to cite any cases" I don't know what cases you want cited. I understand plainly that a newly passed law does not mean it is constitutional. That is not how I summarized your position. You are making the claim that they aren't when no case has been brought before the scotus. You mischaracterized my argument. I won't speculate on the Logan act. Sure a law from 1799 could be in for challenges. The ACA mandate was originally upheld thanks to Roberts in 2012 because Congress has the right to tax.
Again with Fauci (oh vey). Thanks for answering the question, btw, I do appreciate it. But your original gripe was him lying about vaccinations and herd immunity, now its masks. A comment made in, what, February? What is saying Now? What's he been saying since May? Same with the surgeon General. I guess he's a liar too when he said they weren't necessary way back on late February- early March . What's he saying Now? What's he been saying for 6 months? What's trump saying Now? What is he modeling now? When did he know it was airborne and highly contagious? Sometime in January. No outrage from you though...just crickets.
No, I'm not a doctor...not a real one anyway. That's all I have to say about that.
Are you even reading or do you just not retain what you read? In the 195th post in this thread I said this:
"Fine, Fauci lied. Only newsmax freaks care. He doesn't continue to lie to the detriment of public health."
Say it 3 times out loud, then maybe it'll stick. Taihtsat
Krusty let it go. Trumpism was soundly rejected tonight and the R party needs a Paul Wulff level rebuild to be legitimate again. The party may even need a rebrand - apologies to anyone who drives a Buick but that’s basically what the brand is now thanks to the fail that was Trump and all the Rs that jumped on that sinking ship.
I think my best response here to say that I was right about your last question not being your last question.
Since you won't bother, I'll just point out that the United States Supreme Court struck down Cuomo's order limiting religious gatherings. Again, if that won't fly (like the mask mandate won't fly), how do you think shutting down a whole state is going to go?
Again, I assume you consider the NYT an authoritative source.
In a 5-4 decision, the court struck down an order by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo that had restricted the size of religious gatherings in certain areas of New York where infection rates were climbing. The governor had imposed 10- and 25-person capacity limits on churches and other houses of worship in those areas.
The decision seemed to signal that some governmental efforts to stem the pandemic had overreached, impinging on protected freedoms in the name of public health. If unconstrained religious observance and public safety were sometimes at odds, as the governor and other public officials maintained, the court ruled that religious freedom should win out.
Cuomo Attacks Supreme Court, but Virus Ruling Is Warning to Governors (Published 2020)
The court signaled that if unconstrained religious observance and public safety are sometimes at odds, then religious freedom should win out.
I've been ignoring this thread for a while, and unfortunately looked at it this morning. I will make this short, which means I'll just make statements rather than offering the background behind each of them...which at this point I think everyone who is not deliberately being obtuse will know, anyway.
If anybody has said that Trump is responsible for the full 350,000 deaths, I have not seen it. Clearly it would not be accurate to suggest that he is responsible for the whole kit and caboodle. He is not. I hope I am clear on that point.
What anyone who was paying attention recognized early was that people's choices about their personal behavior would influence spread. A bunch of good behavior would retard spread. A bunch of bad behavior would exacerbate spread. Over the first 6 weeks or so of when covid became a recognized thing in the USA, the information regarding how this specific virus spreads modified, as it was slowly recognized that contact spread was much less of a thing (not insignificant, but less) than airborne and the closely related airborne droplets that lead to contact. The various engineering, scientific and medical societies (each field pretty much has its own professional society of practitioners) all pretty much achieved alignment in their understanding of how spread worked during the month of April. By May, it was relatively well understood in concept, though a lot of the details were yet to be nailed down.
What would have been useful would have been leadership at both the federal and state level that kept people informed, both of developments as they occurred and of the behavior that would either minimize or maximize spread. My personal gripe with Trump in this sorry episode of history is that he consciously chose to make things worse through his behavior choices. Leadership comes from the top, whether we are talking about good leadership or bad leadership. Regardless of how you feel about Trump in any of the traditional presidential areas...domestic policy, foreign policy, etc...it is clear that if he had done, said and tweeted absolutely nothing about covid, it would probably have been better from a societal response standpoint than what he instead chose to do, say and tweet. The result was a very dysfunctional and dis-united response at all levels...which enabled more spread, as well as more business disruption than a relatively united response would have produced.
A question that arises is, "how many had their lives cut short that could have been avoided had we had proper presidential leadership on this specific issue?". I don't honestly know how to answer that question. What I expect to see happen when we get past the covid era is various analyses of countries that compare their unified (or not) response, including those country's ideas about individual civic responsibility & behavior, vs. how the death toll worked out for them. That will probably provide the best general idea of how many unnecessary deaths we've had that could have been avoided. The same sorts of studies might also be able to compare things like unemployment, business disruption, etc. I will be interested to see how all of that shakes out.
For the short term, we need to prepare for what will happen when the covid variant that has England shut down gets up to speed here. The government there says that about 2% of the population is now infectious. Here in LA we passed the 1% infectious point a couple of weeks ago and are probably now in the ballpark of 1.25%, though it might be a bit higher. That has literally pushed our medical system to the brink...that is not hyperbole, it is fact. The LA county paramedics have been told that if someone doesn't look as though they are going to make it, don't even bother to bring them to the hospital. The head of the county paramedics was interviewed on TV last night, and he explained in some detail what each paramedic team is facing, and the decisions they are currently making. The ambulance personnel are in a similar situation. When I try to imagine what a 2% infectious situation will produce, I have to assume that we will do exactly what England has done...a complete multi-week shutdown...and this time the list of industries previously exempted will be shortened. The mass inoculation program that I expected to see is stumbling along far too slowly and without the required sense of urgency or resource coordination. That is a big deal, because vaccine distribution is in a race with the new covid variant. In England, the variant is leading the race. I have to assume that there will be parts of the US in the same situation in a matter of weeks.
Welcome to office, Mr. Biden.
The campaign rhetoric was pretty heavy on Trump being personally responsible for every death. The CNN and MSNBC talking heads were never shy about blaming Trump. Bleed could have had other things in mind too.
It takes an extraordinary level of arrogance, naivety, and honestly stupidity to think the government (no matter who was in charge) could save everyone.
Worldwide around 1.3 million people die in car accidents every year. Covid has killed about 1.8 million so far.
