I’m looking forward to

[dgibbons]

Good stuff. Of all of the scientific explanations on masks vs no masks, two visuals hit home for me that are simplistic and funny but make sense. Two people pissing themselves. both without pants, one without pants, and both with pants. The moral of the story two people wearing masks properly are unlikely to transmit through air (especially considering viral load factor)
Other one was from twitter- gal betting her boyfriend he couldn’t blow out a candle with a mask on...and he couldn’t even make it flicker.
Masks work and always did. This stuff about Fauci is ludicrous, and is pure regurgitation of Faux news. He didn’t yell fire in a crowded theatre and he’s the devil...got it.

Fauci lied. It’s plain and obvious.

 

[dgibbons]

d(newsmax)gibbons

Section 311 of the Public Health Service Act: General Grant of Authority for Cooperation 42 U. S. C. § 243 This provision of the Public Health Service Act states that the Secretary of HHS shall assist states and local authorities in the prevention and suppression of communicable diseases and to help state and local authorities enforce quarantine regulations. This section also authorizes the Secretary to accept state and local authorities’ assistance with enforcement of federal quarantine regulations. Further, this section authorizes the Secretary to develop a public health emergency management plan and, at the request of a state or local authority, extend temporary assistance regarding public health emergencies.

Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act: Regulations to Control Communicable Diseases 42 U. S. C. § 264 This section of the Public Health Service Act authorizes the Secretary of HHS to make and enforce regulations “to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases” into the states and possessions of the United States from foreign countries or possessions or from one state into another. This section also authorizes the apprehension, detention, examination, and conditional release of individuals with certain communicable diseases that are specified in an executive order of the President (see Executive Order 13296 (April 4, 2003), as amended by Executive Order 13375 (April 1, 2005) and Executive Order 1367 4 [ July 31, 2014]). The process prescribed for isolating or quarantining such individuals is provided for in 42 C . F. R. Parts 70 and 71 (see below).

S ection 362 of the Public Health Service Act: Suspension of Entries and Imports from Designated Places to Prevent Spread of Communicable Diseases 42 U. S. C. § 265 This section of the Public Health Service Act authorizes the Secretary of HHS , if he or she determines that a communicable disease exists in a foreign country and that introduction of persons from this foreign country poses a serious danger of introducing the disease into the United States, to suspend in the interests of public health the “introduction of persons” from those foreign countries or places for the time necessary to avert the danger, in accordance with approved regulations. This provision may also be applied to the introduction of property (see below).

Interstate Quarantine 42 C.F.R. Part 70 These federal regulations allow the CDC Director to take measures to prevent the spread of communicable diseases from one state or possession into another, including in the event that the Director determines that the measures taken by the health authorities of a state (including political subdivisions) or possession are insufficient to prevent such communicable disease spread. These regulations also authorize the detention, isolation, quarantine, or conditional release of persons for purposes of preventing the interstate spread of communicable diseases listed in an executive order of the President. See Executive Order 13296, as amended by Executive Order 13375 and Executive Order 13674.

Penalties for Violation of Quarantine Law 42 U.S.C. § 271 This statutory provision states that violation of federal quarantine regulations is a crime punishable by a fine of not more $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. Implementing regulations are found at 42 C.F.R. Part 71.2. These penalties are strengthened under the sentencing classification provisions of 18 U.S.C. §§ 3559 and 3571, which provide for more strict penalties for criminal violations that would otherwise be classified as Class A misdemeanors. Under these strengthened penalties, individuals may be punished by a fine of up to $100,000 per violation not resulting in the death of an individual, or up to $250,000 per violation resulting in the death of an individual [18 U.S.C. 3559, 3571(b)]. Organizations may be fined up to $200, 000 per violation not resulting in the death of an individual and $500,000 per violation resulting in the death of an individual [18 U.S.C. 3559, 3571(c)].

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

Under section 319:

https://www.phe.gov/Preparedness/support/secauthority/Pages/default.aspx

Under this section the HHS secretary can enforce "isolation and quarantine".

U.S.C. Title 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE

Particularly this section:
(d) Apprehension and examination of persons reasonably believed to be infected
(1) Regulations prescribed under this section may provide for the apprehension and examination of any individual reasonably believed to be infected with a communicable disease in a qualifying stage and (A) to be moving or about to move from a State to another State; or (B) to be a probable source of infection to individuals who, while infected with such disease in a qualifying stage, will be moving from a State to another State. Such regulations may provide that if upon examination any such individual is found to be infected, he may be detained for such time and in such manner as may be reasonably necessary. For purposes of this subsection, the term “State” includes, in addition to the several States, only the District of Columbia.

The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

That's all that needs to be said about that. Other countries who would be deemed "open societes" comparable to the uSA have put their tools to use. We have not nearly enough to control a highly contagious respiratory disease.

I'll assume you will now begin to move those goalposts again! Taihtsat

And when did they pass constitutional muster? You whiffed on banning interstate travel. Repeated incomplete analysis is not proper argumentation. Like you said, those have not been implemented for Covid. That’s where those pesky civil liberties come into play. The ones that are not a problem in a country like Australia where a state has been locked down for months.

And still no comparison to Canada, Australia or Japan.

 

[dgibbons]

First, I’ve never said that. It’s a nice theory, but in practice...you can’t save everyone. And it makes little sense to focus on the less effective measures before implementing the more effective ones. Resources are limited, and need to be concentrated where they do the most good.

Second, I’m directly in this too. The quaternary ammonium compounds that are used in most Clorox wipes - and similar sanitizing wipes - require 5-10 minutes contact time for effective use against covid. It’s not really feasible to get that kind of contact out of those wipes, and even if it was, nobody would do it. I’ve been actively advising against use of these wipes since about April. We were using a hydrogen peroxide based compound with a 2-minute contact requirement early in the pandemic, largely because it’s what we could get in quantity. It’s hard on some surfaces though, and over the last couple months it’s become clear that even 2 minutes is more than most people allow. We’re shifting to ethanol-based - contact requirement less than a minute, and recommending that it be left to evaporate rather than wiping at all.
Still wiping down public surfaces and high-touch areas, but we’ve come down from the idea of trying to have every door wiped down at least ever 15 minutes. It was never practical, and reality now is that it’s not necessary. More emphasis is needed on hand washing and hand sanitizing (which most people also don’t do effectively), and on air flow.

Fauci’s justification for lying was the fear hospitals would run out of PPE.

 

[Observer11]

In other words, wearing masks would have slowed the spread back in March when Fauci was lying.

For those that doubled or tripled up on your undergarments to stop the spread, you should not feel embarrassed. Better to be safe than sorry.

Fauci has flip flopped more than a sandal on Waikiki.

 

[Coug90]

Fauci lied. It’s plain and obvious.

I knew there was something off with that guy when he told me not to drink bleach or inject myself with disinfectant.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

And when did they pass constitutional muster? You whiffed on banning interstate travel. Repeated incomplete analysis is not proper argumentation. Like you said, those have not been implemented for Covid. That’s where those pesky civil liberties come into play. The ones that are not a problem in a country like Australia where a state has been locked down for months.

And still no comparison to Canada, Australia or Japan.

Whiffed on banning interstate travel? How exactly?

Edited to add: don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse or you simply are obtuse, because it's clearly one or the other

 

[dgibbons]

I knew there was something off with that guy when he told me not to drink bleach or inject myself with disinfectant.

False Equivalence

An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

False Equivalence

An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

Kind of like when you compared voting rights between north korea and the uSA. Obtuse. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[dgibbons]

Whiffed on banning interstate travel? How exactly?

Edited to add: don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse or you simply are obtuse, because it's clearly one or the other

You’re not very good at proper argumentation.

 

[Coug90]

False Equivalence

An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not.

www.logicallyfallacious.com

The full circle irony of you rambling on about someone else’s issue with identity politics. I’ll give you this, you can twist one helluva pretzel.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

You’re not very good at proper argumentation.

d(newsmax)gibbons

If the were a chess match you would only have 4 pawns and maybe 1 bishop left as I'm closing in with my queen, both my rooks, both knights and about 5 pawns.

Keep running. I provided all the relevant statutory authority in us law that you clearly either determined to be too long to read or else couldn't comprehend.

Since you've surrendered the point and refuse to answer my two questions and are so hung up on Fauci, I'll narrow it to just one for your simple mind:

Who is MORE responsible for the death count, past, present and future due to covid? Fauci or the president of the uSA?

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

You’re not very good at proper argumentation.

And...fortunately for you, most posters on this board aren't following along on this thread so your lack of understanding and debate skills are being kept secret. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[dgibbons]

And...fortunately for you, most posters on this board aren't following along on this thread so your lack of understanding and debate skills are being kept secret. That's all I have to say about that.

You haven’t done what you said you would do. At best you’ve done parts. Is that better?

 

[dgibbons]

d(newsmax)gibbons

If the were a chess match you would only have 4 pawns and maybe 1 bishop left as I'm closing in with my queen, both my rooks, both knights and about 5 pawns.

Keep running. I provided all the relevant statutory authority in us law that you clearly either determined to be too long to read or else couldn't comprehend.

Since you've surrendered the point and refuse to answer my two questions and are so hung up on Fauci, I'll narrow it to just one for your simple mind:

Who is MORE responsible for the death count, past, present and future due to covid? Fauci or the president of the uSA?

You’re assuming this is chess.

You changed your two questions, which were never actually two anyway. Again, that’s not proper argumentation.

If now what you want is to pin it on one person- Xi.

 

[dgibbons]

The full circle irony of you rambling on about someone else’s issue with identity politics. I’ll give you this, you can twist one helluva pretzel.

Whether a person has lied is not based on comparison to another person.

 

[mikalalas]

d(newsmax)gibbons

If the were a chess match you would only have 4 pawns and maybe 1 bishop left as I'm closing in with my queen, both my rooks, both knights and about 5 pawns.

Keep running. I provided all the relevant statutory authority in us law that you clearly either determined to be too long to read or else couldn't comprehend.

Since you've surrendered the point and refuse to answer my two questions and are so hung up on Fauci, I'll narrow it to just one for your simple mind:

Who is MORE responsible for the death count, past, present and future due to covid? Fauci or the president of the uSA?

Or Both EQUALLY responsible.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

You’re assuming this is chess.

You changed your two questions, which were never actually two anyway. Again, that’s not proper argumentation.

If now what you want is to pin it on one person- Xi.

d(newsmax)gibbons

Yes (so you really CAN comprehend SOME written words) to make it as simple as I can for you, which evidently is still too difficult.

And now it's clear you're just a troll. You haven't made a good faith attempt to debate with counter points because you don't have any. I realize you wish the onslaught of facts streaming at you obliterating your silly argument would stop. Good news for you; they will! No additional facts and law need to be stated.

And now we'll be left to wonder why you can't (won't) answer simple questions that threaten the steadfast loyalty to your icon, trump. (But we really actually do know)

Now as Willy Winks said to Charlie "You lose! Good day, sir!" That's all I have to say about that.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

Or Both EQUALLY responsible.

Dumb! Just plain dumb-ass response. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[CougEd]

Or Both EQUALLY responsible.
[/QUOTE

So Floyd, Moos and Sterk are equally responsible for the Wulff years? Then why did only one guy get fired?

I don't believe I ever read Fauci saying this is going away by Easter, or we would be down to one case. Be akin to Roosevelt saying "just talked to the Emperor of Japan, I have a great relationship with him. He assured me they accidentally dropped one bomb on Pearl while doing some Pacific exercises, and it hit the USS Arizona. We have a small fire on the ship but we have the best firefighters in board because I only hire the best. All but five are off the ship, it should be down to one, then none.

Nothing to look at here.

There is the reason the CEO, Presidents of the companies make the big bucks, because they are responsible. You know if Trump despite all of the toe stubbing he has done for four years, like going after a kid with autism, a gold star family, separating kids and then not being able to reunite them with their families and saying they are living in nicer places than they would be, he still would be President if it weren't for vanity and told everyone to wear a mask.

 

[FnuLnu]

So Floyd, Moos and Sterk are equally responsible for the Wulff years? Then why did only one guy get fired?

Floyd died.
Sterk left for San Diego St.

Moos (who was a consultant to WSU during the coach search and did not select Paul Saban) was never hired by Sterk again as a consultant on a coaching search.

You suggested earlier this week that Paul Saban could have won 8 games in 2012 had he been retained for Year 5.

Nobody got fired for that hire unless you count Jim Walden.

 

[CougEd]

Floyd died.
Sterk left for San Diego St.

Moos (who was a consultant to WSU during the coach search and did not select Paul Saban) was never hired by Sterk again as a consultant on a coaching search.

You suggested earlier this week that Paul Saban could have won 8 games in 2012 had he been retained for Year 5.

Nobody got fired for that hire unless you count Jim Walden.

I didn’t “Suggest” that . I said I could have seen him have a winning season . That could easily mean 6-6 reg season and a bowl win.

Yes mood gets a pass but could have fired him after the 2010 season . And Floyd died in 2015 .

Which was my point upper management was not held responsible which contradicts Miks statement

 

[FnuLnu]

I didn’t “Suggest” that . I said I could have seen him have a winning season . That could easily mean 6-6 reg season and a bowl win.

Yes mood gets a pass but could have fired him after the 2010 season . And Floyd died in 2015 .

Which was my point upper management was not held responsible which contradicts Miks statement

Floyd want Paul Saban out, and is the target of Paul Saban's insubordinate comment about "people who know football" wanted him to continue as WSU coach, but recall at Mizzou President Floyd "interferred" with Quinn Snyder and the hoops program and basically was forced out/left over that issue. (Mizzou's loss was WSU's gain).

Yep, Moos was hired as WSU AD to fire Paul Saban and he almost botched that.

It took the Oregon State embarrassment in the 2011 Seattle game in front of the Seattle Cougs (and their friends they brought to the game) to finally give him some cover - even then huge push back.

Bill Doba was fire/tired the day after an Apple Cup win. Paul Saban got a week and a meeting in front of the Spokane boosters.

 

[dgibbons]

Ed, I suggest for a New Year's resolution you consider learning to reply properly.

Trump didn't say (in the absolute terms you're using here) that the virus would go away by Easter. But, if that kind of standard (hard for me to even interpret what you're saying, but I guess a statement that Ed removes conditions or qualifications from, then turns out to be incorrect) is what you consider a lie, Fauci certainly lied.

 

[dgibbons]

I didn’t “Suggest” that . I said I could have seen him have a winning season . That could easily mean 6-6 reg season and a bowl win.

Yes mood gets a pass but could have fired him after the 2010 season . And Floyd died in 2015 .

Which was my point upper management was not held responsible which contradicts Miks statement

I suspect you see a lot of things that don't actually happen.

 

[dgibbons]

d(newsmax)gibbons

Yes (so you really CAN comprehend SOME written words) to make it as simple as I can for you, which evidently is still too difficult.

And now it's clear you're just a troll. You haven't made a good faith attempt to debate with counter points because you don't have any. I realize you wish the onslaught of facts streaming at you obliterating your silly argument would stop. Good news for you; they will! No additional facts and law need to be stated.

And now we'll be left to wonder why you can't (won't) answer simple questions that threaten the steadfast loyalty to your icon, trump. (But we really actually do know)

Now as Willy Winks said to Charlie "You lose! Good day, sir!" That's all I have to say about that.

You asked that I agree to a set of rules that would render you the victor, because you knew you couldn't win an actual debate and probably had the self awareness to know you weren't capable of doing so. That's neither good faith nor proper argumentation (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

"In particular, focus on the government's ability to impose lockdowns, prohibit travel, impose contact tracing and forcibly quarantine people that are sick."

Crickets on banning interstate travel. That's what happened in Australia. You've not cited any cases that challenge the constitutionality of the federal statutes of you cited, nor have you even bother to argue state or local laws. Guess what- the courts, the United States Supreme Court in particular, determine whether a law complies with the Constitution or not. The fact that a law is on the books does not render it constitutional. That's how's it works- the challenge happens in court.

You won't state "additional facts" because you want to take your ball and go home after proving exactly nothing. You copied and pasted wikipedia. Then you cited some statutes.

Yet again, I will leave you with this- if the federal government or the state government has the types of powers you suggest, why aren't they being used? Again, I don't mean your misinterpretation of laws on the books, I mean actual enforcement. Why wasn't travel into or out of NYC or the state of New York shut down in March? Why hasn't travel into and out of LA and/or California been shut down right now? This is the worst pandemic in a 100 years. Hospital capacity is a problem in LA. Does the government: (i) not actually think it's that bad, so serious measures are not needed: (ii) been lying to us about the pandemic; (iii) not believe it has the power to take the measures you suggest; or (iv) something else?

Your two points from above, are far more than two, but I will indulge you. At the outset, your questions are flawed because you equate "public health" with Covid and apparently refuse to take a holistic view of public health. And yes, I noticed that you tried to move the goal posts above to turn this into a Trump v. Fauci identity politics debate.

Two points for you to answer
1. If everyone followed Fauci's (for the sake of argument) lies about herd immunity through vaccination, what would be the outcome? Would there be a benefit? A public health "good". I guess if the only thing you consider a benefit to public health is more vaccination, maybe. If you have a holistic view of public health, no. The lockdowns have so many negative effects that you may recall the WHO said don't do it except as a last resort. I have two kids in high school. Their education for the last 9 months or so has been a joke. That will set them back financially their entire lives. That means things like access to medical care and healthier lifestyle will be compromised. The impact of deferred or delayed health care is currently unknown. Suicide rates . I can't say nationwide, but the homocide rate in Spokane increased 186 percent in 2020. Would businesses open more quickly? No. Getting to the 90 percent threshold will be impossible. The resistance to taking the vaccine will make the last 10- 20 percent or so to get to the magic number of 90 (or 85 or whatever) impossible. Getting to 75 percent will take years. When Fauci walks the magic number back, it won't be based on science, it will be based on polling and presumably availability and efficacy of vaccines. Just like his walking the number up was based on polling and efficacy of the vaccines. He knows that there is a "best we can do" aspect to vaccination. Plus, Fauci is assuming the 94-95 percent efficacy will hold up. You may have noticed that the last mile of the distribution is really screwed up, at least right now. Not a big surprise when a vaccine must be stored at -80 Celsius. Would fewer people die, or more? Dying of what? If your only benchmark is preventing death due to Covid, then indefinite lockdowns certainly works and keeping people in lockdown until vaccinated is a great idea. If you don't care about any other aspect of health, or how the population's current and future health will be impacted by job loss, economic recession, access to employer based health insurance, etc. What's most likely? Refer to the prior points on a holistic view of public health.
2. If everyone followed the lies of your favorite president, is there more likely to be benefit or a worse outcome to public health? What statements are you referring to? Since you're all about false equivalence, how do you know that Trump's lies are the reason someone died or will die. Maybe those people were listening to Cuomo and De Blasio say go out and party, watched Pelosi hug people in Chinatown, or listened to Fauci say the risks of Covid spreading here were minuscule. Are more people likely to die or fewer? Dying of what? Again if you're only benchmark is Covid, that's not a holistic view of public health. The death toll from deferred or delayed medical treatments is not known right now as best I can tell.

 

[dgibbons]

Kind of like when you compared voting rights between north korea and the uSA. Obtuse. That's all I have to say about that.

That's called sarcasm. Seemed pretty obvious, ya know since no one is disenfranchised.

 

[longtimecoug]

Ed, I suggest for a New Year's resolution you consider learning to reply properly.

Trump didn't say (in the absolute terms you're using here) that the virus would go away by Easter. But, if that kind of standard (hard for me to even interpret what you're saying, but I guess a statement that Ed removes conditions or qualifications from, then turns out to be incorrect) is what you consider a lie, Fauci certainly lied.

he did say in absolute terms that cases would be down to zero in couple of weeks, how did that turn out?

 

[dgibbons]

he did say in absolute terms that cases would be down to zero in couple of weeks, how did that turn out?

It turned out as well as Fauci’s prediction that the chances of an outbreak here were minuscule. That’s false equivalence.

Do you think Fauci lied about masks and vaccination levels?

Here’s what Trump actually said
“So, again,” he added later, “when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/26/six-months-ago-trump-said-that-coronavirus-cases-would-soon-go-zero-they-didnt/%3foutputType=amp

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

You asked that I agree to a set of rules that would render you the victor, because you knew you couldn't win an actual debate and probably had the self awareness to know you weren't capable of doing so. That's neither good faith nor proper argumentation (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

"In particular, focus on the government's ability to impose lockdowns, prohibit travel, impose contact tracing and forcibly quarantine people that are sick."

Crickets on banning interstate travel. That's what happened in Australia. You've not cited any cases that challenge the constitutionality of the federal statutes of you cited, nor have you even bother to argue state or local laws. Guess what- the courts, the United States Supreme Court in particular, determine whether a law complies with the Constitution or not. The fact that a law is on the books does not render it constitutional. That's how's it works- the challenge happens in court.

***You just have missed the several notations in the statutes referring to the power to restrict travel of citizens BETWEEN state's. The CDC director also has this power. I didn't need to cite cases the challenge the contitutionality of the federal statues - you do. You are makingg the apparent claim that they are not constitutional. You have the burden of proof. If I cite a law (fact) and you claim said law is unconstitutional (making a claim) then you have the burden of proof to support your claim. You simply made a claim and cited no proof. You are claiming "unconstitutional!" Without the process you describe having even happened.

You won't state "additional facts" because you want to take your ball and go home after proving exactly nothing. You copied and pasted wikipedia. Then you cited some statutes.

***yes, I copied and pasted (and linked!) actual facts and data. That's how its done!

Yet again, I will leave you with this- if the federal government or the state government has the types of powers you suggest, why aren't they being used? Again, I don't mean your misinterpretation of laws on the books, I mean actual enforcement. Why wasn't travel into or out of NYC or the state of New York shut down in March? Why hasn't travel into and out of LA and/or California been shut down right now? This is the worst pandemic in a 100 years. Hospital capacity is a problem in LA. Does the government: (i) not actually think it's that bad, so serious measures are not needed: (ii) been lying to us about the pandemic; (iii) not believe it has the power to take the measures you suggest; or (iv) something else?

***because, simply, this is the uSA and we make considerations based on economics more than death counts. Your position seems to be "they haven't utilized these laws, therefore they can't" And your boy, trump, clearly was more interested in the stock market, poll-ratings and the economy than anything. He stated so many, many times. He is the one with the powere to enact these codes and statutes but lacked courage. It's quite easy to pull off in a nation with an attention span of someone like you (real short). And that's the one little area where we had common ground as I said way back in th beginning of this.

Your two points from above, are far more than two, but I will indulge you. At the outset, your questions are flawed because you equate "public health" with Covid and apparently refuse to take a holistic view of public health. And yes, I noticed that you tried to move the goal posts above to turn this into a Trump v. Fauci identity politics debate.

***Another point you missed in the Feederal codes and laws posted: they specifically address public health emergencies, communicable diseases and PANDEMICS! Go re-read it and become informed

Two points for you to answer
1. If everyone followed Fauci's (for the sake of argument) lies about herd immunity through vaccination, what would be the outcome? Would there be a benefit? A public health "good". I guess if the only thing you consider a benefit to public health is more vaccination, maybe. If you have a holistic view of public health, no. The lockdowns have so many negative effects that you may recall the WHO said don't do it except as a last resort. I have two kids in high school. Their education for the last 9 months or so has been a joke. That will set them back financially their entire lives. That means things like access to medical care and healthier lifestyle will be compromised. The impact of deferred or delayed health care is currently unknown. Suicide rates . I can't say nationwide, but the homocide rate in Spokane increased 186 percent in 2020. Would businesses open more quickly? No. Getting to the 90 percent threshold will be impossible. The resistance to taking the vaccine will make the last 10- 20 percent or so to get to the magic number of 90 (or 85 or whatever) impossible. Getting to 75 percent will take years. When Fauci walks the magic number back, it won't be based on science, it will be based on polling and presumably availability and efficacy of vaccines. Just like his walking the number up was based on polling and efficacy of the vaccines. He knows that there is a "best we can do" aspect to vaccination. Plus, Fauci is assuming the 94-95 percent efficacy will hold up. You may have noticed that the last mile of the distribution is really screwed up, at least right now. Not a big surprise when a vaccine must be stored at -80 Celsius. Would fewer people die, or more? Dying of what? If your only benchmark is preventing death due to Covid, then indefinite lockdowns certainly works and keeping people in lockdown until vaccinated is a great idea. If you don't care about any other aspect of health, or how the population's current and future health will be impacted by job loss, economic recession, access to employer based health insurance, etc. What's most likely? Refer to the prior points on a holistic view of public health.

***the advice from Fauci that you had to clutch your pearls about was wearing masks and vaccination. How is doing that going to keep your kids out of school, crater the economy? I agree that the number aimed at is crazy, but advocating for it isn't crazy at all! And don't get so hung up on mere deaths. It's more about vacancy-rate of hospital beds, most of which used do not result in death. Stay focused, because the narrow scenario posed to was basically how was Fauci's avocation for 90+% vaccination going to cause harm, whether he lied of not. If your main claim is creating mistrust, I'll have to do a "spit-take" while drinking my coffee as you overlook your boy, trump generating mistrust of our public health officials and pushing nonsense nearly since the beginning.

2. If everyone followed the lies of your favorite president, is there more likely to be benefit or a worse outcome to public health? What statements are you referring to? Since you're all about false equivalence, how do you know that Trump's lies are the reason someone died or will die. Maybe those people were listening to Cuomo and De Blasio say go out and party, watched Pelosi hug people in Chinatown, or listened to Fauci say the risks of Covid spreading here were minuscule. Are more people likely to die or fewer? Dying of what? Again if you're only benchmark is Covid, that's not a holistic view of public health. The death toll from deferred or delayed medical treatments is not known right now as best I can tell.

d(newsmax)gibbons

(***denotes duplicate text from inside the body of your post. Full responses contained within)

***the first answer you posted to this portion is nonsense. Do you think re-tweeting a quack doctor is good public policy and leadership?

Trump defends decision to retweet viral video that promotes disproved use of malaria drug as treatment for COVID-19

President Donald Trump issued a stout defense Tuesday of a disproved use of a malaria drug as a treatment for the coronavirus, hours after social media companies moved to take down videos promoting…

www.chicagotribune.com

Or this:

Trump Shares Messages Calling Dr. Fauci A ‘Fraud,’ Promoting Hydroxychloroquine

Twitter removed four of the President’s retweeted messages on Tuesday.

www.forbes.com

Or simply the numerous times he said that we were "rounding the corner" or almost to the end or there's "light at the end of the tunnel" (100,000 deaths ago and several hundred thousand hopitalizations ago) or that the virus would just go away

Or disappear after the election

Trump Predicted ‘Covid, Covid, Covid’ Would End After The Election. It's Worse Than Ever

"That's all I hear about now… 'Covid, Covid, Covid, Covid.' By the way, on November 4, you won't hear about it anymore."

www.forbes.com

Are these specific enough statements for you? (Sorry I had to "paste and cut")
Again with Fauci. You know, go re-watch your newsmax piece that played Fauci in front of Congress on Feb 23 saying "at this time". No doubt decisions made by both deblasio and Cuomo directly led to needless deaths. In have no problem saying that. The fact you CANNOT or WILL NOT say that about your master says all that needs to be said. But to be clear - YES , dying of Covid using the standard that the US govt and health agencies always use to determine and calculate deaths and causes of ANYTHING.

Plus, using the benchmark covid IS THE ISSUE. That affects all other health "outcomes" while it dominates.

I'm suspecting you're in the "6% covid death" belief-camp. And you'll claim ignorance at to what that means.

I'm not sure I've encountered such a clearly intelligent person who is so misinformed on the facts and data and misinterprets those facts and data. You're good at snarky posts (That's how I lost my bishop and 5 of my pawns), but that's about it.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

d(newsmax)gibbons

Chance to clarify for you. When you said this:

"What I am looking forward to is people acknowledging that there isn’t a way to stop the spread of a highly contagious respiratory virus in an open society"

By "open society" you meant the United States and ONLY the United States? Or... do you think the United States is the ONLY "open society" on the globe?

 

[dgibbons]

d(newsmax)gibbons

(***denotes duplicate text from inside the body of your post. Full responses contained within)

***the first answer you posted to this portion is nonsense. Do you think re-tweeting a quack doctor is good public policy and leadership?

Trump defends decision to retweet viral video that promotes disproved use of malaria drug as treatment for COVID-19

President Donald Trump issued a stout defense Tuesday of a disproved use of a malaria drug as a treatment for the coronavirus, hours after social media companies moved to take down videos promoting…

www.chicagotribune.com

Or this:

Trump Shares Messages Calling Dr. Fauci A ‘Fraud,’ Promoting Hydroxychloroquine

Twitter removed four of the President’s retweeted messages on Tuesday.

www.forbes.com

Or simply the numerous times he said that we were "rounding the corner" or almost to the end or there's "light at the end of the tunnel" (100,000 deaths ago and several hundred thousand hopitalizations ago) or that the virus would just go away

View embedded media

Or disappear after the election

Trump Predicted ‘Covid, Covid, Covid’ Would End After The Election. It's Worse Than Ever

"That's all I hear about now… 'Covid, Covid, Covid, Covid.' By the way, on November 4, you won't hear about it anymore."

www.forbes.com

Are these specific enough statements for you? (Sorry I had to "paste and cut")
Again with Fauci. You know, go re-watch your newsmax piece that played Fauci in front of Congress on Feb 23 saying "at this time". No doubt decisions made by both deblasio and Cuomo directly led to needless deaths. In have no problem saying that. The fact you CANNOT or WILL NOT say that about your master says all that needs to be said. But to be clear - YES , dying of Covid using the standard that the US govt and health agencies always use to determine and calculate deaths and causes of ANYTHING.

Plus, using the benchmark covid IS THE ISSUE. That affects all other health "outcomes" while it dominates.

I'm suspecting you're in the "6% covid death" belief-camp. And you'll claim ignorance at to what that means.

I'm not sure I've encountered such a clearly intelligent person who is so misinformed on the facts and data and misinterprets those facts and data. You're good at snarky posts (That's how I lost my bishop and 5 of my pawns), but that's about it.

So, it appears we're past the whole comparison of the laws in other countries, and you have no comment on the lack of draconian lockdown measures here when Australia has shutdown an entire state. You also have no comment on my responses to your questions on Fauci. You also have not cited any cases where the federal statutes you cited passed constitutional muster.

Fauci knew the virus was airborne, just like Trump did. Woodward revealed that. Fauci's comments on masks were a lie. He lied because of fear of a PPE shortage in the hospitals. I don't know why he won't come clean about it. Trump did come clean. He lied for a similar reason- to avert panic.

I'd say the "rounding the corner" comments were actually pretty spot on considering the vaccine data came like two weeks after election day and people are being vaccinated right now.

You get where you are because of your adherence to identity politics. Trump does plenty of stupid things. But mean tweets are just mean tweets. The only thought you're capable of having is "orange man bad." On the other hand I'm capable of thinking "orange man bad sometimes and OK sometimes." Trump's position on foreign trade for example is worth a try. It's not like the WTO has been great for America. Multilateral agreements dilute the USA's bargaining power.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

So, it appears we're past the whole comparison of the laws in other countries, and you have no comment on the lack of draconian lockdown measures here when Australia has shutdown an entire state. You also have no comment on my responses to your questions on Fauci. You also have not cited any cases where the federal statutes you cited passed

Fauci knew the virus was airborne, just like Trump did. Woodward revealed that. Fauci's comments on masks were a lie. He lied because of fear of a PPE shortage in the hospitals. I don't know why he won't come clean about it. Trump did come clean. He lied for a similar reason- to avert panic.

I'd say the "rounding the corner" comments were actually pretty spot on considering the vaccine data came like two weeks after election day and people are being vaccinated right now.

You get where you are because of your adherence to identity politics. Trump does plenty of stupid things. But mean tweets are just mean tweets. The only thought you're capable of having is "orange man bad." On the other hand I'm capable of thinking "orange man bad sometimes and OK sometimes." Trump's position on foreign

Why do you continue to argue with a person/ people with TDS? Its as bad as the birther crowd 12 years ago; nothing can convince them of anything other than their pre-conceived notions.

Both parties have figured out that it motivates the base (or maybe the fringe?) when you can create a boogeyman for people to rally around. And some people are just stupid enough to buy it hook, line and sinker.

 

[dgibbons]

Why do you continue to argue with a person/ people with TDS? Its as bad as the birther crowd 12 years ago; nothing can convince them of anything other than their pre-conceived notions.

Both parties have figured out that it motivates the base (or maybe the fringe?) when you can create a boogeyman for people to rally around. And some people are just stupid enough to buy it hook, line and sinker.

Public service.

And I agree. The duopoly perpetuates itself. Inherent in the structure is the hero and the villain.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

So, it appears we're past the whole comparison of the laws in other countries, and you have no comment on the lack of draconian lockdown measures here when Australia has shutdown an entire state. You also have no comment on my responses to your questions on Fauci. You also have not cited any cases where the federal statutes you cited passed constitutional muster.

Fauci knew the virus was airborne, just like Trump did. Woodward revealed that. Fauci's comments on masks were a lie. He lied because of fear of a PPE shortage in the hospitals. I don't know why he won't come clean about it. Trump did come clean. He lied for a similar reason- to avert panic.

I'd say the "rounding the corner" comments were actually pretty spot on considering the vaccine data came like two weeks after election day and people are being vaccinated right now.

You get where you are because of your adherence to identity politics. Trump does plenty of stupid things. But mean tweets are just mean tweets. The only thought you're capable of having is "orange man bad." On the other hand I'm capable of thinking "orange man bad sometimes and OK sometimes." Trump's position on foreign trade for example is worth a try. It's not like the WTO has been great for America. Multilateral agreements dilute the USA's bargaining power.

Whats my comment sbout Australia to be in addition to what ive already said. If i were to agree with you on this point then we'd both be wrong. They utilized measures we could have but didn't. `Nuff said.

I don't need to. They are LAW., Federal law! YOU are making the claim that they are NOT constitutional. YOU have the burden of proof here. However I wouldn't be surprised one iota if they were used during our little run-in with Ebola.

Fine, Fauci lied. Only newsmax freaks care. He doesn't continue to lie to the detriment of public health.

OMG, I retract my comments about your intelligence. Unless, being as generous as I can that "rounding the corner" is on a metaphorically cosmic or geological scale. Nice dodge on the ridiculous quack medical claims he promoted as POTUS. "Mean tweets"? What an effing joke. The POTUS is way above (or ought to be) some window-licking, bathroom closet troll. He's using it to establish policy and make personnel decision.

Of course he's not 100% wrong on everything. But we're not talking about any of that other crap you listed. Based on the way you've conducted this debate, not sure I've got enough pearls to throw that way. Enjoy his last 16 days as much as you can! That's all I have to say about that.

 

[dgibbons]

Whats my comment sbout Australia to be in addition to what ive already said. If i were to agree with you on this point then we'd both be wrong. They utilized measures we could have but didn't. `Nuff said.

I don't need to. They are LAW., Federal law! YOU are making the claim that they are NOT constitutional. YOU have the burden of proof here. However I wouldn't be surprised one iota if they were used during our little run-in with Ebola.

Fine, Fauci lied. Only newsmax freaks care. He doesn't continue to lie to the detriment of public health.

OMG, I retract my comments about your intelligence. Unless, being as generous as I can that "rounding the corner" is on a metaphorically cosmic or geological scale. Nice dodge on the ridiculous quack medical claims he promoted as POTUS. "Mean tweets"? What an effing joke. The POTUS is way above (or ought to be) some window-licking, bathroom closet troll. He's using it to establish policy and make personnel decision.

Of course he's not 100% wrong on everything. But we're not talking about any of that other crap you listed. Based on the way you've conducted this debate, not sure I've got enough pearls to throw that way. Enjoy his last 16 days as much as you can! That's all I have to say about that.

The TDS is strong in this one. Who are you going to blame for everything now that Trump is on his way out?

With the worst public health emergency in 100 years, the good ole USA and every state therein is just choosing not to shutdown interstate travel, forcibly confine sick people, etc.

I guess you’re not going to follow Biden’s Twitter account. Obviously that is your choice. Personnel decisions were made by Twitter
or on Twitter? Or do you mean announced on Twitter? What policy decision was made on or by Twitter? I’m not sure how Trump pushing hydroxychloroquine killed anyone. There was that guys in Arizona that ate his fish tank cleaner.

 

[CougEd]

Ed, I suggest for a New Year's resolution you consider learning to reply properly.

Trump didn't say (in the absolute terms you're using here) that the virus would go away by Easter. But, if that kind of standard (hard for me to even interpret what you're saying, but I guess a statement that Ed removes conditions or qualifications from, then turns out to be incorrect) is what you consider a lie, Fauci certainly lied.

I stand corrected, I used creative license "WHEN" trump said we would be down to one, then none.

He wanted the economy to open to help celebrate Easter. He said we have a handle on it around the Easter opening time. He said during the nursing home out break that we are at 5 cases, soon to be one, then none. That was early on, so that would have been late February, early March. Is this statement in dispute?

Fauci lied, and lied for a reason when it came to masks.

 

[dgibbons]

I stand corrected, I used creative license "WHEN" trump said we would be down to one, then none.

He wanted the economy to open to help celebrate Easter. He said we have a handle on it around the Easter opening time. He said during the nursing home out break that we are at 5 cases, soon to be one, then none. That was early on, so that would have been late February, early March. Is this statement in dispute?

Fauci lied, and lied for a reason when it came to masks.

If lying is OK if you agree with the justification, there is no reason for anyone to tell the truth.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

The TDS is strong in this one. Who are you going to blame for everything now that Trump is on his way out?

With the worst public health emergency in 100 years, the good ole USA and every state therein is just choosing not to shutdown interstate travel, forcibly confine sick people, etc.

I guess you’re not going to follow Biden’s Twitter account. Obviously that is your choice. Personnel decisions were made by Twitter
or on Twitter? Or do you mean announced on Twitter? What policy decision was made on or by Twitter? I’m not sure how Trump pushing hydroxychloroquine killed anyone. There was that guys in Arizona that ate his fish tank cleaner.

d(newsmax)gibbons

I see Crimson gave you a little assist...

Do you have FDS?

Simple, I'll blame whomever is most responsible regardless of ideology or party.

Regarding your "unconstitutional" flail, according to your logic, a newly passed law is not constitutional simply because it hasn't been enforced yet. For your argument to be successful you should easily be able to provide supreme court decisions to prove it. Simple.

Trump announced the banning of transgender Americans serving in the military on twitter:

Trump Tweets That Transgender People Banned From U.S. Military

Trump Tweets That Transgender People Banned From U.S. Military

www.nhpr.org

As Capitan America said..."I can do this all day".

And no, I'm not going to "follow" Biden on Twitter. I don't follow anyone. Twitter is the bathroom wall of social media.

Last question: who has more federal power, Fauci or the POTUS?

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

Why do you continue to argue with a person/ people with TDS? Its as bad as the birther crowd 12 years ago; nothing can convince them of anything other than their pre-conceived notions.

Both parties have figured out that it motivates the base (or maybe the fringe?) when you can create a boogeyman for people to rally around. And some people are just stupid enough to buy it hook, line and sinker.

I assume the "gray" that you bleed is from inside your skull? Taihtsat

 

[longtimecoug]

It turned out as well as Fauci’s prediction that the chances of an outbreak here were minuscule. That’s false equivalence.

Do you think Fauci lied about masks and vaccination levels?

Here’s what Trump actually said
“So, again,” he added later, “when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/26/six-months-ago-trump-said-that-coronavirus-cases-would-soon-go-zero-they-didnt/%3foutputType=amp

whataboutism at a level never seen before