I hope we are done talking about boycotting the Apple Cup

[COCoug]

Just flying home from a great weekend in the PNW. The overall game experience was great. Pioneer Square was rocking pre-game, and seemed to exceed expectations. I was at the Elysian Brewery across from Lumen Field pre-game and they essentially ran out of beer, with only two taps still running out of probably +40! Lumen is much more comfortable than either campus stadium, and it seemed about 40/60 Cougs/Huskies. The fans were loud during the game but overall pretty chill- almost like we were guests at someone else’s house. There were definitely fewer students there for each side- UW hasn’t returned yet from summer break. The weather was very fall-like and it really felt like the Apple Cup to me. It was also so nice to be mentioned on ESPN, and all the other networks, for playing a big game and winning a big game, and not just as a victim of conference re-alignment or for waiving a flag a mind-numbing number of times.

Going forward the AC is going to be A LOT more important for us, because non-conference scheduling is going to get a lot harder. Every coach said it was nearly impossible to get Power 5 conference teams to travel to Pullman when we were one, and now its going to be next to impossible, once the currently scheduled games are played. Beating Wisconsin, Texas Tech and Washington out-of-conference is going to cement the message not to play WSU at home. If anyone glanced at the Texas Tech message boards after last weekend, the fan hatred was split 3-ways between their coach, their QB and their AD for scheduling such a “horsesh*t game”. Regardless who else joins the Pac12, this is the most important event in WSU sports, by about 100-fold. Continuing this series is a huge gift to WSU, and winning this game was honestly as much fun as any Apple Cup I’ve been to, and I’ve been to a lot.

 

[M-I-Coug]

Just flying home from a great weekend in the PNW. The overall game experience was great. Pioneer Square was rocking pre-game, and seemed to exceed expectations. I was at the Elysian Brewery across from Lumen Field pre-game and they essentially ran out of beer, with only two taps still running out of probably +40! Lumen is much more comfortable than either campus stadium, and it seemed about 40/60 Cougs/Huskies. The fans were loud during the game but overall pretty chill- almost like we were guests at someone else’s house. There were definitely fewer students there for each side- UW hasn’t returned yet from summer break. The weather was very fall-like and it really felt like the Apple Cup to me. It was also so nice to be mentioned on ESPN, and all the other networks, for playing a big game and winning a big game, and not just as a victim of conference re-alignment or for waiving a flag a mind-numbing number of times.

Going forward the AC is going to be A LOT more important for us, because non-conference scheduling is going to get a lot harder. Every coach said it was nearly impossible to get Power 5 conference teams to travel to Pullman when we were one, and now its going to be next to impossible, once the currently scheduled games are played. Beating Wisconsin, Texas Tech and Washington out-of-conference is going to cement the message not to play WSU at home. If anyone glanced at the Texas Tech message boards after last weekend, the fan hatred was split 3-ways between their coach, their QB and their AD for scheduling such a “horsesh*t game”. Regardless who else joins the Pac12, this is the most important event in WSU sports, by about 100-fold. Continuing this series is a huge gift to WSU, and winning this game was honestly as much fun as any Apple Cup I’ve been to, and I’ve been to a lot.

Nice post and write up. Thanks!

 

[Cougini5591]

You're kidding right?

You think we should give in to "No Martin Stadium" just to play the snobby purple pencil dicks in Seattle?

What we just did is even more of a right to not play them anymore.

Let them smell that loss in Seattle for eternity.

 

[COUGinNCW]

You're kidding right?

You think we should give in to "No Martin Stadium" just to play the snobby purple pencil dicks in Seattle?

What we just did is even more of a right to not play them anymore.

Let them smell that loss in Seattle for eternity.

And what’s your proposal to replace the $3-5M that game brings to the program every year?

 

[CougSinceBirth]

Is it great WSU won? Absolutely. But they should absolutely never play the game again. They shouldn't have played it this year either. The game didn't even sell out.

The revenue was projected at $4m at best WITH a sell out.

 

[UberCougars]

Is it great WSU won? Absolutely. But they should absolutely never play the game again. They shouldn't have played it this year either. The game didn't even sell out.

The revenue was projected at $4m at best WITH a sell out.

You should have shut down your social media and gone to the game.

You missed the best Apple cup ever.

 

[Coug90]

You should have shut down your social media and gone to the game.

You missed the best Apple cup ever.

I gotta admit I felt the same way a month ago but game week rolled around and I wanted to be there. I couldn’t because of other obligations. I think the 3rd AC I’ve missed in 20 years.

I’ve concluded it’s silly to miss the game out of spite for what happened. It’s just penalizing the team and coaches for something they had nothing to do with. I wish I could have gone, would have been another great memory.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Is it great WSU won? Absolutely. But they should absolutely never play the game again. They shouldn't have played it this year either. The game didn't even sell out.

The revenue was projected at $4m at best WITH a sell out.

The games in Pullman are part of our TV package. If that game is on a network it would have drawn 3-4m viewers so it’s worth a ton for our media rights. The best we could hope to replace it with is MAYBE a game with a school like Cal but more likely a school like Nevada, Wyoming or Central Michigan. I’m a season ticket holder and I want to see this as part of the package every other year.
It’s also a big selling point to recruits.
It would go down as a horrible decision if WSU cancelled this series unless Jeff Bezos decides to gift WSU athletics $1B.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

You should have shut down your social media and gone to the game.

You missed the best Apple cup ever.

I don't live in the area, and I wouldn't have gone if it was all expenses paid.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

The games in Pullman are part of our TV package. If that game is on a network it would have drawn 3-4m viewers so it’s worth a ton for our media rights. The best we could hope to replace it with is MAYBE a game with a school like Cal but more likely a school like Nevada, Wyoming or Central Michigan. I’m a season ticket holder and I want to see this as part of the package every other year.
It’s also a big selling point to recruits.
It would go down as a horrible decision if WSU cancelled this series unless Jeff Bezos decides to gift WSU athletics $1B.

You'll already see MWC 2.0 in your season package moving forward. That one game isn't going to move the needle, and for once I would rather WSU stood up for itself and told UW to go away forever.

 

[COUGinNCW]

You'll already see MWC 2.0 in your season package moving forward. That one game isn't going to move the needle, and for once I would rather WSU stood up for itself and told UW to go away forever.

Glad your not in charge

 

[dgibbons]

And what’s your proposal to replace the $3-5M that game brings to the program every year?

If we have to play body bag games, play body bag games.

And I'd like to see some backup on the $3 million to $5 million per year. Additional ticket sales due to a uw matchup would not give us that kind of money at Martin Stadium.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

If we have to play body bag games, play body bag games.

And I'd like to see some backup on the $3 million to $5 million per year. Additional ticket sales due to a uw matchup would not give us that kind of money at Martin Stadium.

Agree there. I'd like to see the contract for these next 4 games. And look forward to seeing our actual $ take on Saturday's game.

 

[COUGinNCW]

If we have to play body bag games, play body bag games.

And I'd like to see some backup on the $3 million to $5 million per year. Additional ticket sales due to a uw matchup would not give us that kind of money at Martin Stadium.

I explained it above (back of napkin math) but I’ll try to be a little more clear.

Big12 tv contract - $30m. 9-10 games a year (Big12 and home OOC games)= ~3M per game. Average viewers being very generous is about 1.5M. And that’s very generous.

The AC is traditionally 3-4M viewers so that game is worth $6-7M. We get that value in a media package every other year. Away game body bags are worth 0 media dollars and between 1.5-2 MINUS expenses. Not cheap to travel to Knoxville.

It’s also at least an extra $1M in ticket revenue alone when it’s in Pullman vs plugging in Wyoming or Central Michigan. It also will drive season ticket sales (tough to quantify) but call it 500 at 1000 ticket = $.5M.

Players want to play against the best so obvious benefit to recruiting. Just ask the guys that play and they will undoubtedly want to keep playing uw.

It also keeps a local (see Seattle) interest in the program that will help drive our ratings, donations and media deal.

And it tastes 500x better beating those jagoffs than anyone else when we win.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Classic stuff here.....

 

[CougPatrol]

Is it great WSU won? Absolutely. But they should absolutely never play the game again. They shouldn't have played it this year either. The game didn't even sell out.

The revenue was projected at $4m at best WITH a sell out.

OK, you've suggested cancelling the most important sporting and marketing event of the year. What's your proposal for backfilling the game? It's not just the lost revenue (which is significant), but also the massive alumni reach that this game offers. Play a bodybag game for $1M? Schedule another Big Sky opponent and play it in front of 20K fans?

If UW is OK with alternating the games between Martin Stadium and Husky Stadium, why in the world would we say no to that? They're the only big conference school who will ever visit us again in all likelihood.

If we can't agree on a home and home but there is a 5-year offer to play the annual game in Lumen Stadium, I'm down with that as well. That was an awesome game on Saturday. Over 57K fans showed up for a 12:30 kickoff. Again, why would we say no to that? What's the replacement plan?

If UW insists on playing the game every year in Husky Stadium, then we of course tell them to F-off. But otherwise, we don't walk away from this game.

 

[dgibbons]

OK, you've suggested cancelling the most important sporting and marketing event of the year. What's your proposal for backfilling the game? It's not just the lost revenue (which is significant), but also the massive alumni reach that this game offers. Play a bodybag game for $1M? Schedule another Big Sky opponent and play it in front of 20K fans?

If UW is OK with alternating the games between Martin Stadium and Husky Stadium, why in the world would we say no to that? They're the only big conference school who will ever visit us again in all likelihood.

If we can't agree on a home and home but there is a 5-year offer to play the annual game in Lumen Stadium, I'm down with that as well. That was an awesome game on Saturday. Over 57K fans showed up for a 12:30 kickoff. Again, why would we say no to that? What's the replacement plan?

If UW insists on playing the game every year in Husky Stadium, then we of course tell them to F-off. But otherwise, we don't walk away from this game.

First, WSU has to have enough confidence and pride to NOT be the former husband living the wife's basement after the divorce because rent is high.

Second, if the financial situation is so dire, play body bag games. Get a real payday from Tennessee, tOSU, Alabama, or whoever. They pay way more than $1 million, and you know that.

 

[CougPatrol]

Agree there. I'd like to see the contract for these next 4 games. And look forward to seeing our actual $ take on Saturday's game.

Since you claim sometimes to be a dollars and sense guy, you should also sketch out the marketing dollars and alumni reach the Apple Cup offers and contrast that with any other game we would backfill it with.

Over 57K fans showed up for the game on Saturday. What can we possibly schedule in place of that game that would draw in more Coug fans; not only to the stadium, but on television. How do we replace the intangibles like K-12 teachers across the State decorating their classrooms in Crimson or Purple. Side bets at work between alumni. Shared tailgates. The fact that (literally) 100% of players, coaches, and former player alumni vote to keep the rivalry going. How much of a CAF and Cougar Collective bump do we get during Apple Cup week vs. a replacement game vs. Montana State or New Mexico? What other game draws even a fraction of the National media attention that we receive during Apple Cup?

 

[dgibbons]

I explained it above (back of napkin math) but I’ll try to be a little more clear.

Big12 tv contract - $30m. 9-10 games a year (Big12 and home OOC games)= ~3M per game. Average viewers being very generous is about 1.5M. And that’s very generous.

The AC is traditionally 3-4M viewers so that game is worth $6-7M. We get that value in a media package every other year. Away game body bags are worth 0 media dollars and between 1.5-2 MINUS expenses. Not cheap to travel to Knoxville.

It’s also at least an extra $1M in ticket revenue alone when it’s in Pullman vs plugging in Wyoming or Central Michigan. It also will drive season ticket sales (tough to quantify) but call it 500 at 1000 ticket = $.5M.

Players want to play against the best so obvious benefit to recruiting. Just ask the guys that play and they will undoubtedly want to keep playing uw.

It also keeps a local (see Seattle) interest in the program that will help drive our ratings, donations and media deal.

And it tastes 500x better beating those jagoffs than anyone else when we win.

I'd like to see the real thing, not projections. If one game was worth $6-7 million, I doubt the Pac-12 would have collapsed. Six of those = $72 million (If you want to say $66 million since CU-Utah was not a historical rivalry, I will agree).

 

[COUGinNCW]

I'd like to see the real thing, not projections. If one game was worth $6-7 million, I doubt the Pac-12 would have collapsed. Six of those = $72 million (If you want to say $66 million since CU-Utah was not a historical rivalry, I will agree).

Most of the PAC12 games were worth a lot less than that due to their typical crappy ratings like a Cal vs ASU game on ESPN would draw 800k viewers or less.

 

[dgibbons]

Most of the PAC12 games were worth a lot less than that due to their typical crappy ratings like a Cal vs ASU game on ESPN would draw 800k viewers or less.

Which is why I limited that to six (maybe five, removing UU and CU) rivalry games.

Do you have any real numbers?

 

[COUGinNCW]

Just what I wrote on the cack of my napkin and what I’ve seen from Bob Thompson (retired Fox Sports Ex.) on X.

So your idea is to play a couple of body bag games per year? No one is coming to Pullman.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

One thing I don't see a lot in these "play/don't play the Fuskies" discussions is our need for strength of schedule for both rankings and CFP purposes. Our new league games are not going to have P4 strength of schedule. If we could lock in home & away games with a similar level P4 team, then I could listen to the anti-Fuskie game rants a lot easier. But we will have a lot of trouble getting a P4 to do home & away. As long as we have home & away (as we have for the next 4 years, as I recall), I have no problem playing them. And more often than not, I think it benefits us to play early in the season, for many reasons. Long story short, I may have to hold my nose, but continuing to play UW makes sense for WSU.

 

[dgibbons]

Just what I wrote on the cack of my napkin and what I’ve seen from Bob Thompson (retired Fox Sports Ex.) on X.

So your idea is to play a couple of body bag games per year? No one is coming to Pullman.

If we need the dues, we need the dues.

You're proposing a half measure from what I can tell.

 

[dgibbons]

One thing I don't see a lot in these "play/don't play the Fuskies" discussions is our need for strength of schedule for both rankings and CFP purposes. Our new league games are not going to have P4 strength of schedule. If we could lock in home & away games with a similar level P4 team, then I could listen to the anti-Fuskie game rants a lot easier. But we will have a lot of trouble getting a P4 to do home & away. As long as we have home & away (as we have for the next 4 years, as I recall), I have no problem playing them. And more often than not, I think it benefits us to play early in the season, for many reasons. Long story short, I may have to hold my nose, but continuing to play UW makes sense for WSU.

Why does it matter if there is a G5 (or whatever) champ or highest rated team that receives an automatic invite?

 

[CougPatrol]

First, WSU has to have enough confidence and pride to NOT be the former husband living the wife's basement after the divorce because rent is high.

Second, if the financial situation is so dire, play body bag games. Get a real payday from Tennessee, tOSU, Alabama, or whoever. They pay way more than $1 million, and you know that.

No Dgibb, I don't know that. I'd like to see those numbers. I also have no idea why you feel like we're the former husband living in the wife's basement. UW traded their seat atop the P12 conference for a perennial 6th place finish in the B!G. They're going to resemble Wisconsin and Minnesota a lot more closely than Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State. UW, over here in Western WA, are having to advertise ticket sales for all of their games one year after playing in the National Championship.

More importantly though, who and when are we going to schedule these games against? Tennessee, tOSU, Alabama, Notre Dame. Do they have openings to slot us in sometime in the next 10 years? I doubt it. We have a B!G program in our home State. Why not play them?

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Why does it matter if there is a G5 (or whatever) champ or highest rated team that receives an automatic invite?

Gib, it matters because if there are two G5 league champs with the same record, strength of schedule will be the deciding factor more often than not. And the potential to have two G5 champs with the same record is real...maybe even likely.

 

[dgibbons]

Gib, it matters because if there are two G5 league champs with the same record, strength of schedule will be the deciding factor more often than not. And the potential to have two G5 champs with the same record is real...maybe even likely.

So, in other words if there are two undefeated G5 teams SOS will matter. I'm going to say that the odds of two G5 teams going undefeated is a statistical zero. And if we have a road game against Bama, tOSU, or whoever, that's about all we can do for SOS.

 

[dgibbons]

No Dgibb, I don't know that. I'd like to see those numbers. I also have no idea why you feel like we're the former husband living in the wife's basement. UW traded their seat atop the P12 conference for a perennial 6th place finish in the B!G. They're going to resemble Wisconsin and Minnesota a lot more closely than Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State. UW, over here in Western WA, are having to advertise ticket sales for all of their games one year after playing in the National Championship.

More importantly though, who and when are we going to schedule these games against? Tennessee, tOSU, Alabama, Notre Dame. Do they have openings to slot us in sometime in the next 10 years? I doubt it. We have a B!G program in our home State. Why not play them?

Well you should since you're the one throwing dollar amounts around. Scroll down to the table showing WKU got $1.9 million from Bama. I guess we know you'll be sleeping in your wife's basement if you get divorced.

Alabama vs. Western Kentucky payout details: How much money did Hilltoppers make for 2024 football game? | Sporting News

Alabama paid Western Kentucky a decent chunk of change to come to Bryant-Denny Stadium to open the 2024 college football season.

www.sportingnews.com

 

[CougSinceBirth]

OK, you've suggested cancelling the most important sporting and marketing event of the year. What's your proposal for backfilling the game? It's not just the lost revenue (which is significant), but also the massive alumni reach that this game offers. Play a bodybag game for $1M? Schedule another Big Sky opponent and play it in front of 20K fans?

If UW is OK with alternating the games between Martin Stadium and Husky Stadium, why in the world would we say no to that? They're the only big conference school who will ever visit us again in all likelihood.

If we can't agree on a home and home but there is a 5-year offer to play the annual game in Lumen Stadium, I'm down with that as well. That was an awesome game on Saturday. Over 57K fans showed up for a 12:30 kickoff. Again, why would we say no to that? What's the replacement plan?

If UW insists on playing the game every year in Husky Stadium, then we of course tell them to F-off. But otherwise, we don't walk away from this game.

UW canceled all the good in the game when they left...then asked WSU for help. WSU literally refuses to stand up for itself.

Most important marketing event of the year? "Paint the town Crimson" campaigned and only 57k showed up...not even a sell out. I'll be curious to see the final revenue number for this game, but I can guess it will be well below the $4M mark they were hoping for.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Since you claim sometimes to be a dollars and sense guy, you should also sketch out the marketing dollars and alumni reach the Apple Cup offers and contrast that with any other game we would backfill it with.

Over 57K fans showed up for the game on Saturday. What can we possibly schedule in place of that game that would draw in more Coug fans; not only to the stadium, but on television. How do we replace the intangibles like K-12 teachers across the State decorating their classrooms in Crimson or Purple. Side bets at work between alumni. Shared tailgates. The fact that (literally) 100% of players, coaches, and former player alumni vote to keep the rivalry going. How much of a CAF and Cougar Collective bump do we get during Apple Cup week vs. a replacement game vs. Montana State or New Mexico? What other game draws even a fraction of the National media attention that we receive during Apple Cup?

I don't think I ever said we should not be playing the mutts. On the contrary, I grudgingly accept this 3 for 2 arrangement (especially after Saturday! ). Iam merely musing about what the money will be for the next 4.

And to a couple of "body bag game" posts. We want to be in a Power 4 conference, but if we go play them they are body bag games? Well which is it? And that said yes we should schedule away games against the big boys for a million-plus if they materialize.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

UW canceled all the good in the game when they left...then asked WSU for help. WSU literally refuses to stand up for itself.

Most important marketing event of the year? "Paint the town Crimson" campaigned and only 57k showed up...not even a sell out. I'll be curious to see the final revenue number for this game, but I can guess it will be well below the $4M mark they were hoping for.

You have made your opinion on continuing the Apple Cup very clear about 20 times now. We get it and I respect your perspective. Are you done now? On the net revenue, I'll guess $2.5M.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

You have made your opinion on continuing the Apple Cup very clear about 20 times now. We get it and I respect your perspective. Are you done now? On the net revenue, I'll guess $2.5M.

Was just responding to CougPatrol as he asked direct questions. Outside of direct responses, I'll carry on just reading.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Was just responding to CougPatrol as he asked direct questions. Outside of direct responses, I'll carry on just reading.

Was there ever a public records request to see the contract?
Ticket revenue had to be in the $10-12M range. Splitting 50-50 with uw after expenses? How about concessions? That had to be a pretty good number if we got any of it. Overall, should be a good chunk of $$$.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Was just responding to CougPatrol as he asked direct questions. Outside of direct responses, I'll carry on just reading.

Or just move on to the next game/topic.....

 

[mikalalas]

Gib, it matters because if there are two G5 league champs with the same record, strength of schedule will be the deciding factor more often than not. And the potential to have two G5 champs with the same record is real...maybe even likely.

That would have been true if the BSU MWC had remained intact.

If that had happened, then if it was a MWC champ, AAC champ, that 12-0, 11-1, then what you said would happen.

But if PAC 6 gets BSU, Fresno St, SDSU, CSU, Memphis, Tulane, WSU, OSU

Or

CAL, BSU, Fresno St, SDSU, CSU, SMU, WSU, OSU

Or

SMU, BSU, Fresno St, SDSU, CSU, Memphis or Tulane, WSU, OSU

Or

BSU, Fresno St, SDSU, CSU, UNLV, Memphis or Tulane, WSU, OSU

If the PAC 8 gets something like that, The PAC 8 Champ would get 1 of the 12 CFP spots as long as went 10-2, 9-3, 11-1. 12-0

And if a G5 conference champ, like AAC champ, MAAC Champ, SUN Belt Champ, went 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc, they would NOT goto CFP over PAC 8 champ, 99 times out of 100 times.

 

[Cougini5591]

And what’s your proposal to replace the $3-5M that game brings to the program every year?

Option 1 = Playing Oregon, Notre Dame, Georgia, Etc...

My pick is...

Option 2 = Winning is always the most important. Have home games at WSU against the scrubbiest D1's possible

Get a win, get practice game time for younger players, don't do anything to help the purple Satan.

You post like it's complicated

 

[COUGinNCW]

Option 1 = Playing Oregon, Notre Dame, Georgia, Etc...

My pick is...

Option 2 = Winning is always the most important. Have home games at WSU against the scrubbiest D1's possible

Get a win, get practice game time for younger players, don't do anything to help the purple Satan.

You post like it's complicated

And how are you going to make up the $$?

 

[CougPatrol]

Nearly all of the body bag games this year involved complete mismatches. Fresno State and Colorado State were the only decent teams I saw on the list who collected good paydays. These games are impossibly difficult to schedule, and more and more programs are going to be hesitant to schedule teams like WSU due to the risk of loss. Why schedule WSU over an FCS program or someone like Georgia State?

 

[UberCougars]

And how are you going to make up the $$?

Win the BCS NC game. duh…