Jonathan Smith is not OSU’s Paul Wulff..

[Fab5Coug]

Look, I'm willing to give Wulff some credit for the '10 class. And I'm willing to give him a little bit of a pass on the '08 class. But, I'm not going to try to paint that '11 class as anything other than completely horrid. Save for the '08 class, it is probably the worst I've ever seen in my years following recruiting.

You bring a class like that in 3 years in a row, and you're winning 1 game a year.

Sua was every bit as good as Cory Evans and Stripling. Eaddy was faster than Bartolone and more physical. Forbes, which lineman would you take over him, Ayers, Freitag, Maxwell, or a host of others. He was a big body. He wsa "potentially" gifted. Yeah, you are correct if you recruit like that every class, you will be in trouble.

If you have followed recruiting as long as you have I would think you look at Preston Brooks, Ansley, Willis, Bankhead, Dietrich, Estes, Kirksey, Townsend, Jessen, Hamil, Joseph, Baird, Maddox, Bradley, and the list would go on and on and realize those classes were worse than Wulff's. And the tragedy is that was on the heals of three ten win seasons.[/QUOTE]

At least Bartolone played and was fairly productive before he got hurt. Did Eaddy even play a snap?

And you can't cherry pick a dozen guys over the course of 3 years and argue those classes were worse than the '11 class.

The '03 class had Husain Abdullah, Byrd, Aaron Johnson, Jason Hill, Brink & Ropati.
'04 had Bumpus, Jed Collins, Tyron Brackenridge & Jerome Harrison.
'05 had Ahmu, Alfred, Gibson, Hicks, Tardy & Greg Trent.

You cannot, in good conscience, argue the '11 class was better than those class. Doba's classes lacked depth, for sure, but at least he recruited some star power. That is what Wulff's '11 class lacked.

 

[CougEd]

There's a difference between a team legitimately hanging 50 on you and a team "only" hanging 69 on you because they feel sorry for you. Heck, we allowed 58 to Zona last year and that was a pretty good defense. It happens. I watched that entire SC game in '08 and I'm not exaggerating when I say they could have scored 100 if they wanted.

Trying to compare a blood bath like that to a 52-17 loss the year prior is folly.

Its not folly. It shows a huge slide in the program, and losing two of the three DT's that had size and experience meant if the other DT isn't a Pac 10 player there is no way we could stop a simple dive play. Take a peek at that first play of the Cal game. The Cougs worked all week on that play. Ball knew exactly what Tedford would run the first play.

If we played two hand touch Best still would have scored from 80 yards.

I am willing to listen to you how you keep USC from scoring 100 without their sympathy with a DT that gets blown off the ball and a qb that couldn't play on a flag football team at WSU

 

[CougEd]

Sua was every bit as good as Cory Evans and Stripling. Eaddy was faster than Bartolone and more physical. Forbes, which lineman would you take over him, Ayers, Freitag, Maxwell, or a host of others. He was a big body. He wsa "potentially" gifted. Yeah, you are correct if you recruit like that every class, you will be in trouble.

If you have followed recruiting as long as you have I would think you look at Preston Brooks, Ansley, Willis, Bankhead, Dietrich, Estes, Kirksey, Townsend, Jessen, Hamil, Joseph, Baird, Maddox, Bradley, and the list would go on and on and realize those classes were worse than Wulff's. And the tragedy is that was on the heals of three ten win seasons.

At least Bartolone played and was fairly productive before he got hurt. Did Eaddy even play a snap?

And you can't cherry pick a dozen guys over the course of 3 years and argue those classes were worse than the '11 class.

The '03 class had Husain Abdullah, Byrd, Aaron Johnson, Jason Hill, Brink & Ropati.
'04 had Bumpus, Jed Collins, Tyron Brackenridge & Jerome Harrison.
'05 had Ahmu, Alfred, Gibson, Hicks, Tardy & Greg Trent.

You cannot, in good conscience, argue the '11 class was better than those class. Doba's classes lacked depth, for sure, but at least he recruited some star power. That is what Wulff's '11 class lacked.[/QUOTE]

His classes not only lacked depth, but lacked dline help. Compare Doba's first real class without Price there which was 04. Compare that class to Wulffs 08 class. Compare 05 to 09, 06 to 10. and 07 to 11.

I never said 11 was single handily better than 04, 05, 06 or 07.

Here is the closest comparison I can give you in the real world. When Jobs ran McIntosh they were successful, by the time they ran out Gil Amelio in 1997, the company was close to the bottom floor. Could you imagine if some local software guy who had his own shop was hired to revive Apple? They didn't hire the Paul Wulff of the software world, they hired Steve Jobs who had a history at McIntosh.

 

[Fab5Coug]

At least Bartolone played and was fairly productive before he got hurt. Did Eaddy even play a snap?

And you can't cherry pick a dozen guys over the course of 3 years and argue those classes were worse than the '11 class.

The '03 class had Husain Abdullah, Byrd, Aaron Johnson, Jason Hill, Brink & Ropati.
'04 had Bumpus, Jed Collins, Tyron Brackenridge & Jerome Harrison.
'05 had Ahmu, Alfred, Gibson, Hicks, Tardy & Greg Trent.

You cannot, in good conscience, argue the '11 class was better than those class. Doba's classes lacked depth, for sure, but at least he recruited some star power. That is what Wulff's '11 class lacked.

His classes not only lacked depth, but lacked dline help. Compare Doba's first real class without Price there which was 04. Compare that class to Wulffs 08 class. Compare 05 to 09, 06 to 10. and 07 to 11.

I never said 11 was single handily better than 04, 05, 06 or 07.

Here is the closest comparison I can give you in the real world. When Jobs ran McIntosh they were successful, by the time they ran out Gil Amelio in 1997, the company was close to the bottom floor. Could you imagine if some local software guy who had his own shop was hired to revive Apple? They didn't hire the Paul Wulff of the software world, they hired Steve Jobs who had a history at McIntosh.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I'll play along.

2004 vs 2008: Any one of the players I listed above was more productive than the entire 2008 class COMBINED. Looking at that '08 class in hindsight, Karstetter and maybe Hoffman-Ellis are the only two careers I would want to relive.

2005 vs 2009: Fairly close to a wash here. Gibson & Alfred are probably the best from '05, with Ahmu, Hicks, Tardy & Trent as quality Pac12 players. From '09, Long is the standout, and I guess Tuel. Who else would you want again? Nolan Washington? Simone? Carpenter, Winston, Locker? I probably give the edge there to the '05 class.

2006 vs 2010: This one easily goes to Wulff. Deone, Marquess, Cooper & Halliday alone outweigh the entire '06 class. Factor in Pole, Galvin, Kristoff, Fullington & Horton and it's not close. '06 had Mattingly, Dillon was ok, Turpin, Chris Ivory & Kooyman. Meh. That's a bad class.

2007 vs 2011: Paulo, Dom Williams & maybe Myers are the only ones I'd want back. Monroe & Mason were ok, I guess. '07 had Lesuma, Roxas, Mitz, Frischneckt, Ayers, Guerra, Lobbestael & Chima. Both classes are pretty gross. Dom is probably the best player of the bunch. At least Doba got some linemen in the program though. I probably lean '07 here, but I wouldn't want to relive either of these classes.

Of course, we don't know what some of those guys from the '06 & '07 classes could have done with some competent level of coaching in '08 & '09.

 

[dgibbons]

Sua was every bit as good as Cory Evans and Stripling. Eaddy was faster than Bartolone and more physical. Forbes, which lineman would you take over him, Ayers, Freitag, Maxwell, or a host of others. He was a big body. He wsa "potentially" gifted. Yeah, you are correct if you recruit like that every class, you will be in trouble.

If you have followed recruiting as long as you have I would think you look at Preston Brooks, Ansley, Willis, Bankhead, Dietrich, Estes, Kirksey, Townsend, Jessen, Hamil, Joseph, Baird, Maddox, Bradley, and the list would go on and on and realize those classes were worse than Wulff's. And the tragedy is that was on the heals of three ten win seasons.[/QUOTE]

Wulff added a lot of the depth to the Randy Estes Traveling All Stars squad. A lot of depth.

 

[dgibbons]

His classes not only lacked depth, but lacked dline help. Compare Doba's first real class without Price there which was 04. Compare that class to Wulffs 08 class. Compare 05 to 09, 06 to 10. and 07 to 11.

I never said 11 was single handily better than 04, 05, 06 or 07.

Here is the closest comparison I can give you in the real world. When Jobs ran McIntosh they were successful, by the time they ran out Gil Amelio in 1997, the company was close to the bottom floor. Could you imagine if some local software guy who had his own shop was hired to revive Apple? They didn't hire the Paul Wulff of the software world, they hired Steve Jobs who had a history at McIntosh.[/QUOTE]

Do you type with your eyes shut?

 

[Cougsocal]

You are absolutely correct Biggs well almost perfectly correct.

In the history of the Pac-12 - 178 total coaches over 100 years of football playing 9,941 games (interesting that the 10,000th Pac 12 game will be played this year)

Paul Wulff ranks in at #169 out of 178 coaches. Only 9 other coaches in the history of the conference did worse than Wulff. Only 9, and of those who did worse Only 1.... Just 1 coached for 4 years or more.

That Coach was Joe Avezzano from 1980-1984 for Oregon State.

Avezzano would go on to find success in coaching Special Teams for the Dallas Cowboys during their Super Bowl years with Troy Aikman/Emmit Smith, but as a Head Coach in the Pac 12 he was horrific. going 6-47 to Paul Wulff's 9-40.

Avezzano would finish with a Pac-12 record of
0-8
0-7
0-7-1
1-6-1
1-7

For a grand total of 2-35-2

Paul Wulff would go on to be
1-8
0-9
1-8
2-7

For a grand total of 4-32

The only person who is about comparable who did slightly better is also an Oregon State coach. Craig Fertig he went 8-36-1 over 4 years and also had just 4 conference wins, but had a slightly better Wn% than Paul Wulff .189 vs Wulff's .184.

So to everyone on here. Paul Wulff was the 2nd Worst coach in the history of the conference with a minimum of 4 years coaching. The worst was Avezzano.

Interesting enough... Avezano's 1st Pac 12 game that wasn't a loss was against none other than "the great Jim Walden" in 1982 - 14/14

Speaking of which Walden is #126 of 178 coaches in Pac 12 history in Win %

Out of coaches that coached for 100 games or more Jim Walden is next to last in Win%. The 1st place holder for worst Win% coaching 100+ games in the Pac-12? .... Tyrone Willingham.

Here's the link to where I sourced all this info
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/pac-12/coaches.html

Final Thoughts.

Biggs is almost 100% correct. Paul Wulff is the 2nd worst Coach in the History of the Conference having coached 4 years or more.

Biggs is right, Tron you you are being too harsh on Big Joe. Wins and losses don't tell the whole story. Wulff took over a program that was mediocre program, 11-13 (7-11), 6-6 and 5-7 the prior two years, with 8 starters returning on defense, 5 on offense.

Joe took over a program that had won just 9 games in 5 years. In other words, a program that already had hit rock bottom. He did not take them there.

What did Wulff do? He took a mediocre program and lost his first Pac-12 game by a historic record margin, 3-66, followed by memorable 14-63, 13-66, 0-69 and 0-58 beat downs among other impressive beat downs. Against FBS teams we were out scored by a staggering 117-561, an average losing margin of more than 40 pts. No coach anywhere, anytime has destroried a program so completely, so quickly. Poor Joe just couldn't dig the Beavs out of a big hole. Wulff poured the Cougs into the hole, threw in 5 gallons of gas, tossed in a match and then had the nerve to insincerely blame Doba, with a North Korean like history revision that the team was devoid of talent.

For that Wulff deserves bonus point in the worst coach ever race.

 

[CougEd]

His classes not only lacked depth, but lacked dline help. Compare Doba's first real class without Price there which was 04. Compare that class to Wulffs 08 class. Compare 05 to 09, 06 to 10. and 07 to 11.

I never said 11 was single handily better than 04, 05, 06 or 07.

Here is the closest comparison I can give you in the real world. When Jobs ran McIntosh they were successful, by the time they ran out Gil Amelio in 1997, the company was close to the bottom floor. Could you imagine if some local software guy who had his own shop was hired to revive Apple? They didn't hire the Paul Wulff of the software world, they hired Steve Jobs who had a history at McIntosh.

Do you type with your eyes shut?[/QUOTE]
Close....almost all braille. The dog ate my readers....

 

[Fab5Coug]

Now, compare to Leach's classes.

2012: Immediately infused talent, landed Marks, Palacio, Vaeao, Barber, Rob Lewis & Allison quickly. Middleton was a solid starter (Wulff holdover recruit).

2013: Monster class. Better than all the other classes we've discussed and not close. Falk, Pelleur, Sorenson, Dotson, Pippens, Cracraft, Wicks, O'Connell, Ekuale, Morrow, Madison, Powell. Begg & Hanser have been nice. And that's not even mentioning Mayle & McLennan, who had impacts as JCs. 16 impact players in one class? Impressive.

2014: A class you like to bag on. Lacked depth, but at least produced some standout player in Hercules, Luvu & Dillard. Harrington has been a nice player for us. Singleton & Comfort now making an impact. Leach's worst class, but not anywhere near Doba or Wulff's worst.

2015: Another very good class. Hillinski, Luani, Dale, Molton, James Williams, Sweet, Parker, Tago, Nnamdi, all quality players. Sean Harper was also initially a part of this class. I still think Osur-Myers will have an impact. And, if I'm going to give Wulff credit for Marquess, then I'll give Leach credit for Tavares Martin Jr.

2016: Looking to be another solid effort. Jalen Thompson, Jahad, Mauigoa have all been very good. Renard Bell, Chima, Justus Rogers, Marcus Strong & Dillon Sherman have played and been fine. Dez Patmon, Josh Watson, Vinyard & Skyler Thomas looking to be impact players moving forward. JCs McBroom & Taylor were quality. Still hoping Derek Moore can come back.

2017: Jamire Calvin, Abe Lucas, Easop, Silvels, Tay Martin, Willie Taylor, Travell Harris already playing. Valencia also starting I believe.

2018: Fisher, Pei, Djibril & Jackson already playing. Borghi looks like he could be a star.

 

[dgibbons]

Biggs is right, Tron you you are being too harsh on Big Joe. Wins and losses don't tell the whole story. Wulff took over a program that was mediocre program, 11-13 (7-11), 6-6 and 5-7 the prior two years, with 8 starters returning on defense, 5 on offense.

Joe took over a program that had won just 9 games in 5 years. In other words, a program that already had hit rock bottom. He did not take them there.

What did Wulff do? He took a mediocre program and lost his first Pac-12 game by a historic record margin, 3-66, followed by memorable 14-63, 13-66, 0-69 and 0-58 beat downs among other impressive beat downs. Against FBS teams we were out scored by a staggering 117-561, an average losing margin of more than 40 pts. No coach anywhere, anytime has destroried a program so completely, so quickly. Poor Joe just couldn't dig the Beavs out of a big hole. Wulff poured the Cougs into the hole, threw in 5 gallons of gas, tossed in a match and then had the nerve to insincerely blame Doba, with a North Korean like history revision that the team was devoid of talent.

For that Wulff deserves bonus point in the worst coach ever race.

We went the whole 2009 season without being ahead in a game in regulation at any point in the game. The whole season. The miracle comeback against SMU was the reason Wulff was able to nab a single win.

 

[Cougsocal]

Look, I'm willing to give Wulff some credit for the '10 class. And I'm willing to give him a little bit of a pass on the '08 class. But, I'm not going to try to paint that '11 class as anything other than completely horrid. Save for the '08 class, it is probably the worst I've ever seen in my years following recruiting.

You bring a class like that in 3 years in a row, and you're winning 1 game a year.

Sua was every bit as good as Cory Evans and Stripling. Eaddy was faster than Bartolone and more physical. Forbes, which lineman would you take over him, Ayers, Freitag, Maxwell, or a host of others. He was a big body. He wsa "potentially" gifted. Yeah, you are correct if you recruit like that every class, you will be in trouble.

If you have followed recruiting as long as you have I would think you look at Preston Brooks, Ansley, Willis, Bankhead, Dietrich, Estes, Kirksey, Townsend, Jessen, Hamil, Joseph, Baird, Maddox, Bradley, and the list would go on and on and realize those classes were worse than Wulff's. And the tragedy is that was on the heals of three ten win seasons.[/QUOTE]

Ed, you do realize that according to all the rating services, without exception, WSU under Wulff was in last place in recruiting by a wide margin every year he was here. For any power conference school to be competing with bottom tier Mountain West for talent, something was seriously wrong with the message.

 

[FnuLnu]

Mushrooms or LSD?

None of that for CougED.
Only the best high grade hydroponic Waldenmilla tended by Wulff's players in a greenhouse with Walden's game calls playing.

 

[CougEd]

His classes not only lacked depth, but lacked dline help. Compare Doba's first real class without Price there which was 04. Compare that class to Wulffs 08 class. Compare 05 to 09, 06 to 10. and 07 to 11.

I never said 11 was single handily better than 04, 05, 06 or 07.

Here is the closest comparison I can give you in the real world. When Jobs ran McIntosh they were successful, by the time they ran out Gil Amelio in 1997, the company was close to the bottom floor. Could you imagine if some local software guy who had his own shop was hired to revive Apple? They didn't hire the Paul Wulff of the software world, they hired Steve Jobs who had a history at McIntosh.

Ok, I'll play along.

2004 vs 2008: Any one of the players I listed above was more productive than the entire 2008 class COMBINED. Looking at that '08 class in hindsight, Karstetter and maybe Hoffman-Ellis are the only two careers I would want to relive.

2005 vs 2009: Fairly close to a wash here. Gibson & Alfred are probably the best from '05, with Ahmu, Hicks, Tardy & Trent as quality Pac12 players. From '09, Long is the standout, and I guess Tuel. Who else would you want again? Nolan Washington? Simone? Carpenter, Winston, Locker? I probably give the edge there to the '05 class.

2006 vs 2010: This one easily goes to Wulff. Deone, Marquess, Cooper & Halliday alone outweigh the entire '06 class. Factor in Pole, Galvin, Kristoff, Fullington & Horton and it's not close. '06 had Mattingly, Dillon was ok, Turpin, Chris Ivory & Kooyman. Meh. That's a bad class.

2007 vs 2011: Paulo, Dom Williams & maybe Myers are the only ones I'd want back. Monroe & Mason were ok, I guess. '07 had Lesuma, Roxas, Mitz, Frischneckt, Ayers, Guerra, Lobbestael & Chima. Both classes are pretty gross. Dom is probably the best player of the bunch. At least Doba got some linemen in the program though. I probably lean '07 here, but I wouldn't want to relive either of these classes.

Of course, we don't know what some of those guys from the '06 & '07 classes could have done with some competent level of coaching in '08 & '09.[/QUOTE]

Since I am having an ADD moment and wont go from A to B to C, in 09 I would probably add in Kaufusi,Rankin, Forsani Burns and Bosch . Too bad Buckley didn't make grades and went to Idaho.

08? Daniel Simmons I would take in a heart beat. Williams got drafted. Lintz, Laurenzi and Wolfgram. Bland was their best defensive player in 08. And unfortunately McKay and Danieles got hurt.

Two players you don't want from 10 is David Gonzales and Wade Jacobson? It is unfortunate Gonzales got hurt.

I think it is fair to say when you write "at least Doba got Lineman in", really? Ayers, Freitag played one game before they were lost for good. Who were the lineman in 2004/05/06? From 04 WSU had Bumpus, Dillion, Harrison, Brackenridge, Rowlands Roof and Collins. How do you continue to build a program when three of the best on that list are gone in two years. Out of the 04 class you mentioned, one made it to 2008. Collins. Not a lineman among them.

 

[CougEd]

Sua was every bit as good as Cory Evans and Stripling. Eaddy was faster than Bartolone and more physical. Forbes, which lineman would you take over him, Ayers, Freitag, Maxwell, or a host of others. He was a big body. He wsa "potentially" gifted. Yeah, you are correct if you recruit like that every class, you will be in trouble.

If you have followed recruiting as long as you have I would think you look at Preston Brooks, Ansley, Willis, Bankhead, Dietrich, Estes, Kirksey, Townsend, Jessen, Hamil, Joseph, Baird, Maddox, Bradley, and the list would go on and on and realize those classes were worse than Wulff's. And the tragedy is that was on the heals of three ten win seasons.

Ed, you do realize that according to all the rating services, without exception, WSU under Wulff was in last place in recruiting by a wide margin every year he was here. For any power conference school to be competing with bottom tier Mountain West for talent, something was seriously wrong with the message.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...and your point. We no longer have to look at the rating service do we. That is kinda the point. If you are getting good players who no one wants, but they turn out to be Gunnar Eckland, Dom Williams, Joe dahl, Deone Buchanon, on and on, what difference does it make when we can look at the history of each class.

Yes, if we are having this discussion real time, I would say based on rankings these classes are worse than Dobas

 

[CougEd]

Now, compare to Leach's classes.

2012: Immediately infused talent, landed Marks, Palacio, Vaeao, Barber, Rob Lewis & Allison quickly. Middleton was a solid starter (Wulff holdover recruit).

2013: Monster class. Better than all the other classes we've discussed and not close. Falk, Pelleur, Sorenson, Dotson, Pippens, Cracraft, Wicks, O'Connell, Ekuale, Morrow, Madison, Powell. Begg & Hanser have been nice. And that's not even mentioning Mayle & McLennan, who had impacts as JCs. 16 impact players in one class? Impressive.

2014: A class you like to bag on. Lacked depth, but at least produced some standout player in Hercules, Luvu & Dillard. Harrington has been a nice player for us. Singleton & Comfort now making an impact. Leach's worst class, but not anywhere near Doba or Wulff's worst.

2015: Another very good class. Hillinski, Luani, Dale, Molton, James Williams, Sweet, Parker, Tago, Nnamdi, all quality players. Sean Harper was also initially a part of this class. I still think Osur-Myers will have an impact. And, if I'm going to give Wulff credit for Marquess, then I'll give Leach credit for Tavares Martin Jr.

2016: Looking to be another solid effort. Jalen Thompson, Jahad, Mauigoa have all been very good. Renard Bell, Chima, Justus Rogers, Marcus Strong & Dillon Sherman have played and been fine. Dez Patmon, Josh Watson, Vinyard & Skyler Thomas looking to be impact players moving forward. JCs McBroom & Taylor were quality. Still hoping Derek Moore can come back.

2017: Jamire Calvin, Abe Lucas, Easop, Silvels, Tay Martin, Willie Taylor, Travell Harris already playing. Valencia also starting I believe.

2018: Fisher, Pei, Djibril & Jackson already playing. Borghi looks like he could be a star.

And your point about Leach's class?

 

[FnuLnu]

Interesting enough... Avezano's 1st Pac 12 game that wasn't a loss was against none other than "the great Jim Walden" in 1982 - 14/14

Biggs is almost 100% correct. Paul Wulff is the 2nd worst Coach in the History of the Conference having coached 4 years or more.

Was at that game - it was the first Pullman home game of the 1982 season after going to the Holiday Bowl in 1981.
WSU had scored a total of 14 points in their 3 previous games.

With about 3 seconds left, WSU lead Oregon State 14-11.
OSU's kicker tried a FG and missed - Flag.
Walden had too many men on the field.

With no time on the clock, OSU moves 5 yards closer and their kicker hits a personal record FG.

The entire OSU team and staff RUNS ONTO THE FIELD AND CELEBRATES A TIE. (which ended their consecutive losing streak).

Didn't know what was worse - having too many men on the field (Jim Walden) or celebrating a tie.
Wulff was worse than Avezzanno. OSU (and UO) were undergoing severe budget cuts and Dee Andros was still mucking things up behind the scenes.
Scholarship limits (IIRC) were also different.
WSU was just two years away from being bowl eligible when Wulff was hired.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Ok, I'll play along.

2004 vs 2008: Any one of the players I listed above was more productive than the entire 2008 class COMBINED. Looking at that '08 class in hindsight, Karstetter and maybe Hoffman-Ellis are the only two careers I would want to relive.

2005 vs 2009: Fairly close to a wash here. Gibson & Alfred are probably the best from '05, with Ahmu, Hicks, Tardy & Trent as quality Pac12 players. From '09, Long is the standout, and I guess Tuel. Who else would you want again? Nolan Washington? Simone? Carpenter, Winston, Locker? I probably give the edge there to the '05 class.

2006 vs 2010: This one easily goes to Wulff. Deone, Marquess, Cooper & Halliday alone outweigh the entire '06 class. Factor in Pole, Galvin, Kristoff, Fullington & Horton and it's not close. '06 had Mattingly, Dillon was ok, Turpin, Chris Ivory & Kooyman. Meh. That's a bad class.

2007 vs 2011: Paulo, Dom Williams & maybe Myers are the only ones I'd want back. Monroe & Mason were ok, I guess. '07 had Lesuma, Roxas, Mitz, Frischneckt, Ayers, Guerra, Lobbestael & Chima. Both classes are pretty gross. Dom is probably the best player of the bunch. At least Doba got some linemen in the program though. I probably lean '07 here, but I wouldn't want to relive either of these classes.

Of course, we don't know what some of those guys from the '06 & '07 classes could have done with some competent level of coaching in '08 & '09.

Since I am having an ADD moment and wont go from A to B to C, in 09 I would probably add in Kaufusi,Rankin, Forsani Burns and Bosch . Too bad Buckley didn't make grades and went to Idaho.

08? Daniel Simmons I would take in a heart beat. Williams got drafted. Lintz, Laurenzi and Wolfgram. Bland was their best defensive player in 08. And unfortunately McKay and Danieles got hurt.

Two players you don't want from 10 is David Gonzales and Wade Jacobson? It is unfortunate Gonzales got hurt.

I think it is fair to say when you write "at least Doba got Lineman in", really? Ayers, Freitag played one game before they were lost for good. Who were the lineman in 2004/05/06? From 04 WSU had Bumpus, Dillion, Harrison, Brackenridge, Rowlands Roof and Collins. How do you continue to build a program when three of the best on that list are gone in two years. Out of the 04 class you mentioned, one made it to 2008. Collins. Not a lineman among them.[/QUOTE]

I would not add Kaufusi, Burns, Forzani, Lintz, Laurenzi & Wolfgramm because they didn't do $hit. Come on. Rankin played, albeit out of position and was not particularly impactful. I'm trying to list guys that were impact players, that I would want back. Not every Tom, Dick & Harry who had no business playing in the Pac12, but had to play on some of the worst teams we've ever seen.

And I already stated Wulff wins 2010 in a landslide. I didn't realize I needed to list out every single player in the class that played.

And I'm not giving credit to guys who did little because they got hurt. I could go back and add a half dozen more guys per class who "could have been" if we were doing that.

 

[Fab5Coug]

And your point about Leach's class?

I wanted to take a retroactive look at Leach's classes to compare. You have a problem with that?

 

[Fab5Coug]

And your point about Leach's class?

Do you have a point with this post?

 

[CougEd]

Do you have a point with this post?

Yeah, I don't understand why in our discussion about Doba and Wulff evolved into what Leach has done. Isn't that really a duh? (except 2014 )

 

[Fab5Coug]

And your point about Leach's class?

Is it ok for me to look back and post about some actual GOOD classes? Or, do you just want to rehash the crap recruiting that both Wulff & Doba did?

 

[CougEd]

Is it ok for me to look back and post about some actual GOOD classes? Or, do you just want to rehash the crap recruiting that both Wulff & Doba did?

No.....not at all. I just didn't see the transition. The way I read it was there was a comparison. Clearly I shanked that one. My bad.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Of course, we could also look at the margin of defeats. Did any of those awful OSU coaches lose games 69-0? Were they able to prop up their meager win percentages with OOC games against Montana St, Portland St & SMU? Did they have scholarship limits in place designed to balance the playing field a bit?

Don't get me wrong.....Wulff deserves to be in the conversation. I took a look and OSU's average loss in 1981 was 13-43 which is roughly equivalent to 2008. As I've said before, the wreck that Wulff created in 2008 puts him in any conversation for worst seasons in college football history. The thing is, by 2011, WSU was only getting outscored 30-32 on average as we started to close the gap. There were obviously ugly losses (cough.....OSU.....cough) but there were some good moments. If not for Jim Sweeney's incompetent finish in 1975, Andros would have gone 0-12 with 8 games where they were held to single digits including a couple shutouts. Just about every Beaver coach was watching his team get blown out every week for three decades. Holmoe's last Cal team lost by an average of 21 points per game and gave up 44+ points six times.

There are plenty of coaches who had teams that got whipped.....but the worst of those guys were still getting crushed as they were getting thrown to the curb. Even if you hate Wulff, he did field a team in 2011 that had good moments as they started to get close to being decent. Of course, he still needed to be fired because close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

 

[Cougsocal]

Don't get me wrong.....Wulff deserves to be in the conversation. I took a look and OSU's average loss in 1981 was 13-43 which is roughly equivalent to 2008. As I've said before, the wreck that Wulff created in 2008 puts him in any conversation for worst seasons in college football history. The thing is, by 2011, WSU was only getting outscored 30-32 on average as we started to close the gap. There were obviously ugly losses (cough.....OSU.....cough) but there were some good moments. If not for Jim Sweeney's incompetent finish in 1975, Andros would have gone 0-12 with 8 games where they were held to single digits including a couple shutouts. Just about every Beaver coach was watching his team get blown out every week for three decades. Holmoe's last Cal team lost by an average of 21 points per game and gave up 44+ points six times.

There are plenty of coaches who had teams that got whipped.....but the worst of those guys were still getting crushed as they were getting thrown to the curb. Even if you hate Wulff, he did field a team in 2011 that had good moments as they started to get close to being decent. Of course, he still needed to be fired because close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

And If we had Jeff Tuel in 2011, we'd have gone to a bowl! The problem is the Cougs blew out very bad Idaho State and Unlv teams. Also what success Wulff had in 2011 resulted from sheer fortuity that Tuel went down early, and he as forced to rely on the Lobster, a kid he had already "written off" as not Pac-12 caliber Lobster went on to play in 2011 far better than Tuel ever had or ever would. Which tel's you a little more about Wulff's coaching abilities or lack thereof

 

[Fab5Coug]

And If we had Jeff Tuel in 2011, we'd have gone to a bowl! The problem is the Cougs blew out very bad Idaho State and Unlv teams. Also what success Wulff had in 2011 resulted from sheer fortuity that Tuel went down early, and he as forced to rely on the Lobster, a kid he had already "written off" as not Pac-12 caliber Lobster went on to play in 2011 far better than Tuel ever had or ever would. Which tel's you a little more about Wulff's coaching abilities or lack thereof

You are absolutely right. Lobster actually was not bad that year.

And yet, he said to the media, more than once, that the team would be better once Tuel returned. Even if you thought he was 100% right, what kind of mentally is that? It's like the whole team had an excuse ready to go.

Could you imagine a Leach QB saying that?

 

[dgibbons]

You are absolutely right. Lobster actually was not bad that year.

And yet, he said to the media, more than once, that the team would be better once Tuel returned. Even if you thought he was 100% right, what kind of mentally is that? It's like the whole team had an excuse ready to go.

Could you imagine a Leach QB saying that?

People that know football know Wulff was doing it the right way.

Training table!

 

[Flatlandcoug]

And If we had Jeff Tuel in 2011, we'd have gone to a bowl! The problem is the Cougs blew out very bad Idaho State and Unlv teams. Also what success Wulff had in 2011 resulted from sheer fortuity that Tuel went down early, and he as forced to rely on the Lobster, a kid he had already "written off" as not Pac-12 caliber Lobster went on to play in 2011 far better than Tuel ever had or ever would. Which tel's you a little more about Wulff's coaching abilities or lack thereof

I don't care about Lobster leaving. I'll leave it to others to make excuses for Wulff. We didn't make a bowl game and he needed to get canned.

My point is that it's foolish and myopic to focus on win percentage alone when evaluating a coach. Is Leach a terrible coach because he led WSU to two of our ten worst seasons all times in win percentage? Through four seasons, Price had a better winning percentage at WSU than Leach, does that mean he was a better coach? Speaking of Price, four of his seasons at WSU had a higher winning percentage than Leach's best season at WSU......does that mean he's better? I'm not saying that Wulff was a good coach, I'm saying that you guys are wrong when you insist that he's the worst ever, and frankly, it speaks poorly to you as WSU fans that you want so desperately for him to be the biggest failure ever. I'm not celebrating his mediocrity, but I don't feel the need to take a piss on a fellow Coug. I understand that it's personal for you and that limits your ability to be objective about it....and that's ok.

 

[dgibbons]

I don't care about Lobster leaving. I'll leave it to others to make excuses for Wulff. We didn't make a bowl game and he needed to get canned.

My point is that it's foolish and myopic to focus on win percentage alone when evaluating a coach. Is Leach a terrible coach because he led WSU to two of our ten worst seasons all times in win percentage? Through four seasons, Price had a better winning percentage at WSU than Leach, does that mean he was a better coach? Speaking of Price, four of his seasons at WSU had a higher winning percentage than Leach's best season at WSU......does that mean he's better? I'm not saying that Wulff was a good coach, I'm saying that you guys are wrong when you insist that he's the worst ever, and frankly, it speaks poorly to you as WSU fans that you want so desperately for him to be the biggest failure ever. I'm not celebrating his mediocrity, but I don't feel the need to take a piss on a fellow Coug. I understand that it's personal for you and that limits your ability to be objective about it....and that's ok.

Career winning percentage is rather telling. .184.

 

[BiggsCoug]

CougEd should change his name to “9-40.”

 

[CougEd]

Q although are you Shit boys want to exactly

CougEd should change his name to “9-40.”

That would be Mr 9-40 Coug to you .

 

[Cougarmatt90]

Just by personality alone Paul Wulff would never have succeeded at the D1 level. I don’t care where he coached, he was not going to get any player above 2 stars. You can keep talking about how he was so close to building the program, next year, next year... BS!! He was not respected by any other PAC-12 coaches, in fact remember the media day picture with our conferences’ coaches and Wulff was left out? Ugg, I never, ever want to go back to that again. If you need a reminder of how hideous we were under Wulff just do a search on YouTube and watch a game or two.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Just by personality alone Paul Wulff would never have succeeded at the D1 level. I don’t care where he coached, he was not going to get any player above 2 stars. You can keep talking about how he was so close to building the program, next year, next year... BS!! He was not respected by any other PAC-12 coaches, in fact remember the media day picture with our conferences’ coaches and Wulff was left out? Ugg, I never, ever want to go back to that again. If you need a reminder of how hideous we were under Wulff just do a search on YouTube and watch a game or two.

What’s interesting is when someone says, “He sucked but he’s not the worst coach in conference history”, it somehow gets conflated into “If we had given him a shot, he could have built something special”.

I agree with you that Wulff was never going to be a good head coach in the PAC-12. That was obvious by 2011 (some would say 2008). To say that he was never going to get anything better than 2 star recruits is silly though, particularly since several of his recruits ended up in the NFL. His problem was that he was never going to do it consistently. Too many mediocre players to allow his occasional stud to make much of a difference.

 

[Fab5Coug]

What’s interesting is when someone says, “He sucked but he’s not the worst coach in conference history”, it somehow gets conflated into “If we had given him a shot, he could have built something special”.

I agree with you that Wulff was never going to be a good head coach in the PAC-12. That was obvious by 2011 (some would say 2008). To say that he was never going to get anything better than 2 star recruits is silly though, particularly since several of his recruits ended up in the NFL. His problem was that he was never going to do it consistently. Too many mediocre players to allow his occasional stud to make much of a difference.

Well, he's the worst that I've ever given a crap about. How's that?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Well, he's the worst that I've ever given a crap about. How's that?

That right there is a very fair statement.....and accurate for almost of all of us.

 

[Cougsocal]

I don't care about Lobster leaving. I'll leave it to others to make excuses for Wulff. We didn't make a bowl game and he needed to get canned.

My point is that it's foolish and myopic to focus on win percentage alone when evaluating a coach. Is Leach a terrible coach because he led WSU to two of our ten worst seasons all times in win percentage? Through four seasons, Price had a better winning percentage at WSU than Leach, does that mean he was a better coach? Speaking of Price, four of his seasons at WSU had a higher winning percentage than Leach's best season at WSU......does that mean he's better? I'm not saying that Wulff was a good coach, I'm saying that you guys are wrong when you insist that he's the worst ever, and frankly, it speaks poorly to you as WSU fans that you want so desperately for him to be the biggest failure ever. I'm not celebrating his mediocrity, but I don't feel the need to take a piss on a fellow Coug. I understand that it's personal for you and that limits your ability to be objective about it....and that's ok.

Wait a minute here. You just said, “Wulff should be in the conversation,” now you’re saying not only shouldn’t he be in the worst coach conversation, it is uncougar-like to do so. Are you really saying we should act like a mini North Korea? Also there was nothing mediocre about Wulff, that was Doba’s moniker, anyway you cut it, Paul Wulff was a dreadful coach. Paul Wulff must be front and center in the conversation for being the worst coach ever.

The numbers and lack of success speaks for itself, so I will not belabor that point. But let’s not forget that Paul Wulff was a huge failure on the character front too. He blamed everybody but himself. He blamed Doba, he blamed the kids, never once did he say I need to do a better job coaching. Instead, he and his minions floated one false narrative after another. His game plan against USC in 2008 was to run the clock, to take a knee, and not even try to compete. That says a whole lot about the guy. He should have been fired, then and there, as demonstrating character detrimental to the team and the University as a whole. Cougars may get our arses handed to us from time to time, and be completely overmatched, but we don’t “not try.”

He had one last opportunity to “man up” after he was fired, and do a Mike Price at UTEP, accepting full responsibility and apologize to one and all for not winning more and letting people down. Instead, he claimed that we had “lost our innocence.” Honestly?

I am mindful that he was the driving force of our greatest offensive line, a line that drove the ball down the throat of the number one team in the nation, with little Richie Swinton, on 13 consecutive running plays for the game-winning score. I really, really wanted him to do well. But the guy proved to be a complete and unrepentant douche bag on top of being a dreadful coach. For that reason, I believe he is at the top of the heap of bad Pac-10 coaches.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Wait a minute here. You just said, “Wulff should be in the conversation,” now you’re saying not only shouldn’t he be in the worst coach conversation, it is uncougar-like to do so. Are you really saying we should act like a mini North Korea? Also there was nothing mediocre about Wulff, that was Doba’s moniker, anyway you cut it, Paul Wulff was a dreadful coach. Paul Wulff must be front and center in the conversation for being the worst coach ever.

The numbers and lack of success speaks for itself, so I will not belabor that point. But let’s not forget that Paul Wulff was a huge failure on the character front too. He blamed everybody but himself. He blamed Doba, he blamed the kids, never once did he say I need to do a better job coaching. Instead, he and his minions floated one false narrative after another. His game plan against USC in 2008 was to run the clock, to take a knee, and not even try to compete. That says a whole lot about the guy. He should have been fired, then and there, as demonstrating character detrimental to the team and the University as a whole. Cougars may get our arses handed to us from time to time, and be completely overmatched, but we don’t “not try.”

He had one last opportunity to “man up” after he was fired, and do a Mike Price at UTEP, accepting full responsibility and apologize to one and all for not winning more and letting people down. Instead, he claimed that we had “lost our innocence.” Honestly?

I am mindful that he was the driving force of our greatest offensive line, a line that drove the ball down the throat of the number one team in the nation, with little Richie Swinton, on 13 consecutive running plays for the game-winning score. I really, really wanted him to do well. But the guy proved to be a complete and unrepentant douche bag on top of being a dreadful coach. For that reason, I believe he is at the top of the heap of bad Pac-10 coaches.

Fair enough. The reason that he should be in the conversation for top 10 worst Pac-12 coaches are all the reasons you listed above and it's why he needed to be fired in 2011. I will say that I don't blame him for not being apologetic in 2011. Anyone who's a real competitor doesn't just lie down and give up.....they go down swinging and that's all he was doing. He didn't owe fans an apology just like we didn't owe him a job in 2012. If he's in your top spot because it's personal to you.....that's quite all right. Everything we look at it in life is tainted by our personal biases and we are all correct in our own viewpoints based on our world view. That doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you (or me). Below is the article that listed the 10 worst coaching tenures of all time.

https://thebiglead.com/2018/09/05/the-10-worst-college-football-coaching-tenures-of-all-time/

As much as we hated how bad our team was under Wulff, it's only the "worst ever" because it was personal for us. Wulff was a flawed man and I hope that he's done some soul searching in the past 7 years on how he could be a better person, but I'm guessing that he hasn't. I'm sure that he thinks that if he'd have been given another year, he would have gotten to 7 wins like Sweeney did in his fifth year. Unfortunately, that doesn't acknowledge that Sweeney got run out of town a few years later when it turned out that he was a one hit wonder. So, I get the disgust and unhappiness with Wulff. None of us want to see him back at WSU, you can rest assured of that.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Fair enough. The reason that he should be in the conversation for top 10 worst Pac-12 coaches are all the reasons you listed above and it's why he needed to be fired in 2011. I will say that I don't blame him for not being apologetic in 2011. Anyone who's a real competitor doesn't just lie down and give up.....they go down swinging and that's all he was doing. He didn't owe fans an apology just like we didn't owe him a job in 2012. If he's in your top spot because it's personal to you.....that's quite all right. Everything we look at it in life is tainted by our personal biases and we are all correct in our own viewpoints based on our world view. That doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you (or me). Below is the article that listed the 10 worst coaching tenures of all time.

https://thebiglead.com/2018/09/05/the-10-worst-college-football-coaching-tenures-of-all-time/

As much as we hated how bad our team was under Wulff, it's only the "worst ever" because it was personal for us. Wulff was a flawed man and I hope that he's done some soul searching in the past 7 years on how he could be a better person, but I'm guessing that he hasn't. I'm sure that he thinks that if he'd have been given another year, he would have gotten to 7 wins like Sweeney did in his fifth year. Unfortunately, that doesn't acknowledge that Sweeney got run out of town a few years later when it turned out that he was a one hit wonder. So, I get the disgust and unhappiness with Wulff. None of us want to see him back at WSU, you can rest assured of that.

He may not have the "worst tenure" of any Pac12 coach in history, only salvaged by his passably "not terrible" 4 win season in '11, but he certainly coached 2 of the worst teams I've ever seen.

You've given examples of other coaches that took moderately good situations and turned them sour, but I have a hard time believing there has ever been back to back teams as bad as the '08, '09 Cougs.

 

[PatBaum]

So not to stir the pot... and this isn't coming from a pro-Wulff position, but when measuring all of the other "worst coaches" in the history of college football...

How many other coaches were fired after showing the team actually getting better? (record wise and roster wise)

Aren't coaches getting fired when they look worse or with no improvement?

All that aside...

I don't even want to think of where we would be at now had we not gotten Leach.

 

[NMBRCRNCHR]

PW not only was a poor coach and leader, but he was a finger pointer. My disdain for him does not lie with his wins and loss record, it is with his unwillingness to accept responsibility, EVER, all the way to the end. At times, he would mention that coaches needed to do better, but his excuses for poor performance most often were external...training tables, bare-cupboards and the like. His attitude wasn't Coug-like during his coaching tenure. I think Cougars own-up to their mistakes and are able to address their weaknesses by seeking out folks that complement themselves. PW was the antithesis of this.

 

[froropmkr72]

CougEd should change his name to “9-40.”

What time is it?? It's nine-foty time"!!!