One thing I actually feel better about...

[CougPatrol]

The 5 hour drive home after depressing losses provides me with a lot of time to ponder our program. Prior to the season, all of the talk about super conferences, NIL, and the transfer portal had me doubting the sustainability of WSU football. Then, on top of that, Rolo's vax antics and the coaching questions I have about him only added to my worries.

Over the past few weeks, I've pivoted from my paranoia about our program. Having watched most of the P12 and MWC teams play this season it's reminded me of something. Apart from a couple of exceptions like Oregon and USC, P12 football is still a major work in progress. For as bad (or at least unsettled) as things are for WSU right now, most of the other teams in our league are facing major issues of their own.

Nobody in the P12 other than Oregon is willing to go all-in on football. I follow the MWC almost as closely as I do the P12, and 5-6 of those programs have more complete rosters than most P12 teams. Boise State, Utah State, SDSU, Fresno State, and San Jose State would challenge for top-3 finishes in both the North and South divisions of the P12. Nevada and Wyoming aren't pushovers either. The manage to recruit and develop West coast kids without the benefit of being a P5 member school, without marketing notoriety, without fancy facilities and big donor bucks. Fresno State, BYU, Wyoming, Boise State, and Nevada can find elite QBs, and half the P12 can't seem to find kids who would start in the Big Sky. How is that possible?

WSU needs to figure out what they're doing with Rolo and move on from him as soon as we can. There are at least 8 other P12 programs that are spinning their wheels.

 

[FnuLnu]

The 5 hour drive home after depressing losses provides me with a lot of time to ponder our program. Prior to the season, all of the talk about super conferences, NIL, and the transfer portal had me doubting the sustainability of WSU football. Then, on top of that, Rolo's vax antics and the coaching questions I have about him only added to my worries.

Over the past few weeks, I've pivoted from my paranoia about our program. Having watched most of the P12 and MWC teams play this season it's reminded me of something. Apart from a couple of exceptions like Oregon and USC, P12 football is still a major work in progress. For as bad (or at least unsettled) as things are for WSU right now, most of the other teams in our league are facing major issues of their own.

Nobody in the P12 other than Oregon is willing to go all-in on football. I follow the MWC almost as closely as I do the P12, and 5-6 of those programs have more complete rosters than most P12 teams. Boise State, Utah State, SDSU, Fresno State, and San Jose State would challenge for top-3 finishes in both the North and South divisions of the P12. Nevada and Wyoming aren't pushovers either. The manage to recruit and develop West coast kids without the benefit of being a P5 member school, without marketing notoriety, without fancy facilities and big donor bucks. Fresno State, BYU, Wyoming, Boise State, and Nevada can find elite QBs, and half the P12 can't seem to find kids who would start in the Big Sky. How is that possible?

WSU needs to figure out what they're doing with Rolo and move on from him as soon as we can. There are at least 8 other P12 programs that are spinning their wheels.

You are arguing against yourself.

Every year the MWC has in fact lots of crappy teams for a mid-level team to build a good overall record against (see Jim Walden in the early 1980s when both Oregon teams, and Cal was easy pickings).

For the good MWC teams or MWC teams on the upside that particular year (see a couple of Rolo's good Hawaii who did this), playing and beating Pac12 teams is like Pac12 teams playing and beating Power 5 teams (who aren't Kansas or Rutgers).

When Rolo beat Arizona & Oregon State in 2019, it is pretty likely there were few "early Mike Price" stunts like there were vs Utah State this year.

That said he was blown out twice by Utah State at Hawaii (38-0 2017 & 56-17 2018).

 

[etowncoug]

You are arguing against yourself.

Every year the MWC has in fact lots of crappy teams for a mid-level team to build a good overall record against (see Jim Walden in the early 1980s when both Oregon teams, and Cal was easy pickings).

For the good MWC teams or MWC teams on the upside that particular year (see a couple of Rolo's good Hawaii who did this), playing and beating Pac12 teams is like Pac12 teams playing and beating Power 5 teams (who aren't Kansas or Rutgers).

When Rolo beat Arizona & Oregon State in 2019, it is pretty likely there were few "early Mike Price" stunts like there were vs Utah State this year.

That said he was blown out twice by Utah State at Hawaii (38-0 2017 & 56-17 2018).

Rolovich's Hawaii program would have been one that looked able to compete at the P5 level with some success.

 

[froropmkr72]

Maybe they should go back to the Islands and prove it again!

 

[CougPatrol]

You are arguing against yourself.

Every year the MWC has in fact lots of crappy teams for a mid-level team to build a good overall record against (see Jim Walden in the early 1980s when both Oregon teams, and Cal was easy pickings).

For the good MWC teams or MWC teams on the upside that particular year (see a couple of Rolo's good Hawaii who did this), playing and beating Pac12 teams is like Pac12 teams playing and beating Power 5 teams (who aren't Kansas or Rutgers).

When Rolo beat Arizona & Oregon State in 2019, it is pretty likely there were few "early Mike Price" stunts like there were vs Utah State this year.

That said he was blown out twice by Utah State at Hawaii (38-0 2017 & 56-17 2018).

I'm not arguing against myself. I just did a terrible job of conveying my point.

For as bad as things are at WSU right now, when I look around the P12, I see at least 8 other programs that are treading water or worse. I mean, up and down the league, there are glaring holes in rosters where MWC and even Big Sky programs have stronger position groups.

Mike Leach came in and turned our fortunes around because he knew how to build the roster intelligently. We always had depth on the offensive line. We always had a solid QB. We always had a slew of WRs and RBs. We didn't have elite talent at the skill positions, but we had a lot of solid performers and roster depth capable of beating 7-8 teams on our schedule every season.

Some people point to his recruiting "misses," but that overlooks the fact that every year, he was able to find and fill the critical need positions. It's amazing to me how many P12 programs still overlook this basic managerial roster requirement. Talent evaluating out West has been a joke for decades, and that's what gives me optimism about our future. Hire a coach who understands this and we'll leapfrog at least half the conference.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I'm not arguing against myself. I just did a terrible job of conveying my point.

For as bad as things are at WSU right now, when I look around the P12, I see at least 8 other programs that are treading water or worse. I mean, up and down the league, there are glaring holes in rosters where MWC and even Big Sky programs have stronger position groups.

Mike Leach came in and turned our fortunes around because he knew how to build the roster intelligently. We always had depth on the offensive line. We always had a solid QB. We always had a slew of WRs and RBs. We didn't have elite talent at the skill positions, but we had a lot of solid performers and roster depth capable of beating 7-8 teams on our schedule every season.

Some people point to his recruiting "misses," but that overlooks the fact that every year, he was able to find and fill the critical need positions. It's amazing to me how many P12 programs still overlook this basic managerial roster requirement. Talent evaluating out West has been a joke for decades, and that's what gives me optimism about our future. Hire a coach who understands this and we'll leapfrog at least half the conference.

The Pac 12 coaches have refused to acknowledge they are a developmental league. The high school kids are nowhere near as ready to play college ball as other regions in the country. You have to get bodies and grow them. Look at the volume of 4 star kids in Texas. I’d wager there are more 4 star kids in Texas than there are in the entire West. West being NM to CO to WY to MT and west.

If you have a league where 80% of the teams are filling classes with kids that aren’t prepared to play college ball, you will see them get beat by Northern AZ, Utah State, Montana, etc.

Wanna make $ as a coach in the Pac 12? Learn how to evaluate kids that are 2 stars and two years later are All Conference.

Bobby Wagner played at Utah State…. how did the entire conference miss???

Kellen Moore set records….. 0 Pac 12 offers.

There are tons of kids out there if you know what you’re doing.

 

[wazzucougs96]

The Pac 12 coaches have refused to acknowledge they are a developmental league. The high school kids are nowhere near as ready to play college ball as other regions in the country. You have to get bodies and grow them. Look at the volume of 4 star kids in Texas. I’d wager there are more 4 star kids in Texas than there are in the entire West. West being NM to CO to WY to MT and west.

If you have a league where 80% of the teams are filling classes with kids that aren’t prepared to play college ball, you will see them get beat by Northern AZ, Utah State, Montana, etc.

Wanna make $ as a coach in the Pac 12? Learn how to evaluate kids that are 2 stars and two years later are All Conference.

Bobby Wagner played at Utah State…. how did the entire conference miss???

Kellen Moore set records….. 0 Pac 12 offers.

There are tons of kids out there if you know what you’re doing.

Stop wasting time recruiting Florida when California is still loaded with guys that can play. We should be able to win recruiting battles against the MWC and the best guys going to the MWC schools can absolutely play in the Pac 12.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Stop wasting time recruiting Florida when California is still loaded with guys that can play. We should be able to win recruiting battles against the MWC and the best guys going to the MWC schools can absolutely play in the Pac 12.

100% agree. Florida and Texas, while WSU has had some really good players from there, are ultimately not where WSU needs to be good at.

Any WSU coach should be looking at the All Conference list for the Mtn West and Big Sky and asking themselves…. “could these kids play here? did we evaluate them in high school?”

WSU needs to be a SoCal team. Make one trip thru WA, whoever you like that is interested keep calling. Otherwise, next flight to LA. No Oregon, no Hawaii, no Phoenix, no Vegas, nowhere else. WSU has to get as many kids out of SoCal as possible and then grow them.

 

[wazzucougs96]

100% agree. Florida and Texas, while WSU has had some really good players from there, are ultimately not where WSU needs to be good at.

Any WSU coach should be looking at the All Conference list for the Mtn West and Big Sky and asking themselves…. “could these kids play here? did we evaluate them in high school?”

WSU needs to be a SoCal team. Make one trip thru WA, whoever you like that is interested keep calling. Otherwise, next flight to LA. No Oregon, no Hawaii, no Phoenix, no Vegas, nowhere else. WSU has to get as many kids out of SoCal as possible and then grow them.

We also need to understand/lean into who and what our program is. In terms of recruiting cache, we are basically on par with the top of the MWC. Swallow your effing pride and embrace that. Build that into your program culture like those schools do. The big selling point WSU has the guys you recruit will have 9 chances a year to take down Pac 12 schools, while the MWC programs only get 1 or 2.

 

[spongeandshoot]

100% agree. Florida and Texas, while WSU has had some really good players from there, are ultimately not where WSU needs to be good at.

Any WSU coach should be looking at the All Conference list for the Mtn West and Big Sky and asking themselves…. “could these kids play here? did we evaluate them in high school?”

WSU needs to be a SoCal team. Make one trip thru WA, whoever you like that is interested keep calling. Otherwise, next flight to LA. No Oregon, no Hawaii, no Phoenix, no Vegas, nowhere else. WSU has to get as many kids out of SoCal as possible and then grow them.

I just remember during the Doba years how we were recruiting Texas and how that never panned out for us. Most of them if I recall got homesick.

 

[dgibbons]

I just remember during the Doba years how we were recruiting Texas and how that never panned out for us. Most of them if I recall got homesick.

Or didn't qualify, or flunked out, or got in trouble, or weren't any good.

The approach was part of the problem- after striking out Doba would make a midnight run to Texas and scoop up what was left.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I just remember during the Doba years how we were recruiting Texas and how that never panned out for us. Most of them if I recall got homesick.

Having lived in Texas…. Texas kids want to stay in Texas. They don’t wanna leave. There is a difference between being somewhere you wanna be and being somewhere you wound up. Which is WSU for Texas kids?

 

[Fab5Coug]

I just remember during the Doba years how we were recruiting Texas and how that never panned out for us. Most of them if I recall got homesick.

If you can go down to Texas and compete with Tech, Baylor, Ok St, TCU or even Houston, then go for it. Problem was, we were grabbing guys away from Rice and SMU (before they got decent again). Texas may be ripe with talent, but not once 15 other schools have had their pick down there.

 

[Fab5Coug]

100% agree. Florida and Texas, while WSU has had some really good players from there, are ultimately not where WSU needs to be good at.

Any WSU coach should be looking at the All Conference list for the Mtn West and Big Sky and asking themselves…. “could these kids play here? did we evaluate them in high school?”

WSU needs to be a SoCal team. Make one trip thru WA, whoever you like that is interested keep calling. Otherwise, next flight to LA. No Oregon, no Hawaii, no Phoenix, no Vegas, nowhere else. WSU has to get as many kids out of SoCal as possible and then grow them.

Even Mike Price has (recently) said, WSU should take like half their class from WA, then get some guys from Alaska, Canada, Montana, etc. I don't get it.

UW is gonna beat us out for 8 of the top 10 kids in the state. You'd be lucky if you could land 1 Pac12 kid a year in Montana, Idaho, Canada, etc. Someone in another thread was suggesting recruiting in Australia and New Zealand. You're gonna fly a coach all over the world just to get, maybe 1 kid every couple years?

This is like driving across the state to buy something you could get at the Target 5 blocks from your house.

Get your 3-4 in state kids, get a kid or two from the Islands if you happen to have that connection on staff, take an out of the footprint kid or two if they fall into your lap, and fill the rest with SoCal.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Even Mike Price has (recently) said, WSU should take like half their class from WA, then get some guys from Alaska, Canada, Montana, etc. I don't get it.

UW is gonna beat us out for 8 of the top 10 kids in the state. You'd be lucky if you could land 1 Pac12 kid a year in Montana, Idaho, Canada, etc. Someone in another thread was suggesting recruiting in Australia and New Zealand. You're gonna fly a coach all over the world just to get, maybe 1 kid every couple years?

This is like driving across the state to buy something you could get at the Target 5 blocks from your house.

Get your 3-4 in state kids, get a kid or two from the Islands if you happen to have that connection on staff, take an out of the footprint kid or two if they fall into your lap, and fill the rest with SoCal.

If the in state kids were gonna come they would have done so by now. When all of the top ten kids won’t even visit the school, its time to move on.

Any way you slice it, the West Coast talent is in SoCal. Are they all gonna hit? No. But enough of them will. Passed over by SC? Come on up.

 

[etowncoug]

I just remember during the Doba years how we were recruiting Texas and how that never panned out for us. Most of them if I recall got homesick.

Greg Trent worked out just fine. I know this wasn't during the Doba years, but Devard Darling was a Texas kid too.

Honestly, that entire era was full of a bunch of duds on the trail. I don't think Texas was much worse than our recruiting anywhere else. Brand X just made just a big deal out of the Texas pipeline that it soured the fanbase on the Lonestar State.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Greg Trent worked out just fine. I know this wasn't during the Doba years, but Devard Darling was a Texas kid too.

Honestly, that entire era was full of a bunch of duds on the trail. I don't think Texas was much worse than our recruiting anywhere else. Brand X just made just a big deal out of the Texas pipeline that it soured the fanbase on the Lonestar State.

Greg Trent was an Ok player...and a good kid but he was slow and would not see the field under our better defenses.

I don't think the reward for the time and effort spent was a good return on investment.

Darling was a little different. He was a transfer who showed a desire to leave the state. If I remember correctly, I think his mom wanted them to get out of Houston...but I could be mistaken.

 

[wazzucougs96]

Greg Trent was an Ok player...and a good kid but he was slow and would not see the field under our better defenses.

I don't think the reward for the time and effort spent was a good return on investment.

Darling was a little different. He was a transfer who showed a desire to leave the state. If I remember correctly, I think his mom wanted them to get out of Houston...but I could be mistaken.

Darling came to WSU after his twin brother died when they both played at Florida State. We got in on him as a transfer because of Eric Price. That was as much luck and circumstance on our part as anything else.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Darling came to WSU after his twin brother died when they both played at Florida State. We got in on him as a transfer because of Eric Price. That was as much luck and circumstance on our part as anything else.

Yes, I was just going to add that to my post.

As a side note, I have a friend who is a booster at FSU aka Free Shoes University and he says that Devaughn's death really shook up Bobby Bowden and he was never the same after that.

 

[spongeandshoot]

I wanted to clarify my above post. After posting, I realize I didn't include Bobby Bowden's name and the way it read was that Devard was never the same...which is not what I meant.

 

[CougPatrol]

Listen, the geography shouldn't be daunting for a P12 coaching staff to be able to thoroughly recruit all of the Western states; particularly with the transfer portal available to plug immediate needs. How does Utah State have better lineman than us? How does Fresno State have wideouts that Oregon and UCLA can't cover? What are they selling to recruits?

I don't think the WSU "sell" is as difficult as it's made out to be. I've been following the program for 40 years now, and we've had multiple coaching staffs put together Nationally regarded teams.

 

[taf88]

Even Mike Price has (recently) said, WSU should take like half their class from WA, then get some guys from Alaska, Canada, Montana, etc. I don't get it.

UW is gonna beat us out for 8 of the top 10 kids in the state. You'd be lucky if you could land 1 Pac12 kid a year in Montana, Idaho, Canada, etc. Someone in another thread was suggesting recruiting in Australia and New Zealand. You're gonna fly a coach all over the world just to get, maybe 1 kid every couple years?

This is like driving across the state to buy something you could get at the Target 5 blocks from your house.

Get your 3-4 in state kids, get a kid or two from the Islands if you happen to have that connection on staff, take an out of the footprint kid or two if they fall into your lap, and fill the rest with SoCal.

I believe he was referencing dancers, not recruits.

 

[COCoug]

Ha! This brings back memories. When Doba started recruiting Texas I posted repeatedly on this board that we were delusional if we thought we would take top players away from the Texas schools, who basically had a bleacher full of scouts at every game from 5th grade on. The year he had 10 players from Texas (some) Cougar fans thought they would cut through the conference like a hot knife through butter. Needless to say, we were actually "stealing" players from Texas D-IIs and community colleges, and as stated above, most left without playing a down, because it was illogical for them to be in Pullman. They would rather play for North Texas State than WSU.

We cannot win without successful recruiting of California. Recruiting Washington would fantastic. The transfer portal will take care of the rest.

 

[Cougsocal]

Listen, the geography shouldn't be daunting for a P12 coaching staff to be able to thoroughly recruit all of the Western states; particularly with the transfer portal available to plug immediate needs. How does Utah State have better lineman than us? How does Fresno State have wideouts that Oregon and UCLA can't cover? What are they selling to recruits?

I don't think the WSU "sell" is as difficult as it's made out to be. I've been following the program for 40 years now, and we've had multiple coaching staffs put together Nationally regarded teams.

The Pac-12 shot itself in the foot when it got into an arms race over expensive facilities, and received less than the 1/3 the revenue expected. There also is a long held perception in the conference that coaches are little more than a fungible good. Look no closer than our Mike Price fiasco. Our football program needs a Kyle Smith type coach, a hard working, no stone unturned, personable guy, who creates enthusiasm in kids to play for him, him being the operative word, not Pullman.

Bobby Bowden and Howard Schnellenberg, turned football backwaters into powers. Well, I'm sure you are saying that Florida has so much talent that Washington does not. But Florida had no major football pedigree before they got there. They got kids who left the state in numbers to play in big time Power 5 conferences, to stay home and play for a football unknown, independent.

In the internet age, state and regional boundaries mean little when it comes to recruiting. If they did, Pac-12 football would still be at the top, instead of being the little sister of the Power-5. Cali kids are doing a Florida of old, or hadn't you noticed. Outside of Cristobal, what Pac-12 coach creates any buzz about playing for him, Edwards? Look at Oregon's recruiting under Helfrich and tell me that the coach isn't the driving force of recruiting. Same program, the only thing that changed was the coach and the buzz surrounding him.

Hiring "the guy" won't be easy, but you start by taking a "money ball" approach to what make a coach successful, and apply it. Stop hiring on old school emotion and feel, you might as well get out a Ouija board. When we finally find "the guy," be willing to go to the mat to keep him, recognize his extreme importance to our success.

Simple.

 

[Fab5Coug]

The Pac-12 shot itself in the foot when it got into an arms race over expensive facilities, and received less than the 1/3 the revenue expected. There also is a long held perception in the conference that coaches are little more than a fungible good. Look no closer than our Mike Price fiasco. Our football program needs a Kyle Smith type coach, a hard working, no stone unturned, personable guy, who creates enthusiasm in kids to play for him, him being the operative word, not Pullman.

Bobby Bowden and Howard Schnellenberg, turned football backwaters into powers. Well, I'm sure you are saying that Florida has so much talent that Washington does not. But Florida had no major football pedigree before they got there. They got kids who left the state in numbers to play in big time Power 5 conferences, to stay home and play for a football unknown, independent.

In the internet age, state and regional boundaries mean little when it comes to recruiting. If they did, Pac-12 football would still be at the top, instead of being the little sister of the Power-5. Cali kids are doing a Florida of old, or hadn't you noticed. Outside of Cristobal, what Pac-12 coach creates any buzz about playing for him, Edwards? Look at Oregon's recruiting under Helfrich and tell me that the coach isn't the driving force of recruiting. Same program, the only thing that changed was the coach and the buzz surrounding him.

Hiring "the guy" won't be easy, but you start by taking a "money ball" approach to what make a coach successful, and apply it. Stop hiring on old school emotion and feel, you might as well get out a Ouija board. When we finally find "the guy," be willing to go to the mat to keep him, recognize his extreme importance to our success.

Simple.

I will say, the benefit of recruiting far away from home is that to a Florida kid, WSU is just a Pac12 school, probably on par with any other Pac12 school not named SC or Oregon. Kids down there don't give a crap that we haven't won an Apple Cup in a decade. They don't remember, or care about the Wulff years. WSU is just a Power 5 school that throws the ball a ton. That's why you see a kid like Travell Harris end up here.

In state recruiting is such an uphill battle because UW has been top dog for so long. You get blowhards like Tracy Ford complaining we don't recruit "his kids", but when do you think was the last time he pushed a kid towards WSU? The Furnesses and Puckets can complain about in state recruiting till they're blue in the face, but the reality is, it's going to be a bad return on investment most times. The previous staff spent a ton of effort recruiting the kid from Hazen, only to have UW swoop in and easily flip him at the last minute. How many times does that have to happen before you realize it's not worth investing THAT much into it.

3-4 in state, a couple from out of your footprint, a couple from the Islands if you have a coach that can do that, then the rest from CA.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I will say, the benefit of recruiting far away from home is that to a Florida kid, WSU is just a Pac12 school, probably on par with any other Pac12 school not named SC or Oregon. Kids down there don't give a crap that we haven't won an Apple Cup in a decade. They don't remember, or care about the Wulff years. WSU is just a Power 5 school that throws the ball a ton. That's why you see a kid like Travell Harris end up here.

In state recruiting is such an uphill battle because UW has been top dog for so long. You get blowhards like Tracy Ford complaining we don't recruit "his kids", but when do you think was the last time he pushed a kid towards WSU? The Furnesses and Puckets can complain about in state recruiting till they're blue in the face, but the reality is, it's going to be a bad return on investment most times. The previous staff spent a ton of effort recruiting the kid from Hazen, only to have UW swoop in and easily flip him at the last minute. How many times does that have to happen before you realize it's not worth investing THAT much into it.

3-4 in state, a couple from out of your footprint, a couple from the Islands if you have a coach that can do that, then the rest from CA.

The Hazen kid used WSU as a spot holder waiting on other offers to come in.

 

[CougPatrol]

Many years ago, I used to say that WSU should be a JC transfer destination school, similar to how Kansas State used to fill their holes.

Today, in a similar sense, I think WSU should mine the Hell out of the transfer portal.

 

[etowncoug]

Many years ago, I used to say that WSU should be a JC transfer destination school, similar to how Kansas State used to fill their holes.

Today, in a similar sense, I think WSU should mine the Hell out of the transfer portal.

Especially if we get 7 extra scholarships a year to be used on the portal.