Quite a few of our QB’s did not look good early in their careers and it took until their junior year when the lights turned on, they understood the system and played lights out. Rosenbach and Bledsoe come to mind in that regards. Ward struggled last year and still helped us get into a minor bowl game his first year playing for WSU and that is something some of our great quarterbacks can’t claim. He has looked much better this year and it appears we are trending to a much better bowl game. I don’t expect perfection from Ward but I do like the way he developed from last year to this year for various reasons including better coaching. I think he has a very good chance playing on sundays. I just wish people would realize Ward is still a young guy who is still improving and developing and knock off the nit-picky criticism of him.
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- Thread starter M-I-Coug
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I believe this was his 36th start. This is not early in his career at all.
He will not play on Sundays if he cannot protect the football.
He is not a young guy. He has 36 games under his belt. You are incorrect.
Nit picky? Hardly. Fumbling the ball, circus backed up at the goal line, should I go on? How about you stop with the over hype machine?
Biggs is not nit-picking....he's just a bitter old prick who's mad that his prediction that Dickert and Ward were both terrible is looking pretty ignorant. He'll go to the grave grabbing at straws in the hopes of propping up the mythology that he is all-knowing when it comes to football.
Brink: 46
Thompson: 44
Falk: 42
Gesser: 39
Ward: 36
Leaf: 32
Tuel: 31
Rosenbach: 30
Bledsoe: 30
Rypien: 29
These are the number of college games played by some notable WSU QBs.
Ward is a junior with 36 starts. He's already played more games than all but 4 WSU QBs - half a season more than Tuel, Rosenbach, Bledsoe, and Rypien. By the end of this season he could be tied with Brink.
When does he stop being "a young guy" and "early in his career?"
Fair point….but… Did any of those other QBs play at a school like Incarnate Ward prior to taking snaps at WSU. If we’re including the IWU games for these comparisons might as well throw high school starts into the mix too…not a whole lot different.
Forget about all that, how many of those QBs started a season with 14 TDs and no picks. Ever. He’s doing shit that’s never been done at WSU. You’re gonna have to live with the occasional fumble if you’re gonna cheer about the freestyled pass across the body for a TD that Dickert was laughing about.
His play this year has been phenomenal and light years ahead of where he was last year. At this point it’s not nitpicking anymore it’s pure stupidity to be complaining about a couple of miscue's with how well he’s executed the offense.
Keep in mind, that Cam was a INEXPERIENCED LATE BLOOMER, football, QB wise, in highschool.
That's why he was a 2.5 star level QB in highschool, instead of a 3.5,4,4.5 star recruit.
That set his development time further back, then other WSU QB's that were not late bloomers, had more experience, etc.
Then on top of that, then Cam went to FCS, where going against FCS competition probably wasn't going to develop him that much relative to D1, G5, P5, etc, competition level.
So because of that subtract all his FCS starts, games played from his 36 starts, games played.
Because of that past WSU QB's had way the heck MORE P5, PAC EXPERIENCE then Cam.
Then on top of all that you had a SHETTY OC MORRIS EFFING Cam up, NOT developing Cam, compared to past WSU QB's having more QUALITY experience, development time, etc.
Because of all the above, Ward COMPARATIVELY, FIGURATIVELY WAS BEHIND, LESS EXPERIENCED, ETC, then other WSU QB's.
So because of that Cam is a relatively YOUNG QB LACK OF QUALITY EXPERIENCE, LACK OF QUALITY DEVELOPMENT wise.
In that sense, Cam is akin, semi like unto Tuel, etc.
But now that's been FIXED by ARBUCKLE, and TIME, Cam being a Redshirt Junior, that has finally CAUGHT UP, from being BEHIND, because of the being a late bloomer, not getting quality experience, development, etc.
So now CAM IS FIXED, CAUGHT UP, DEVELOPED, etc, now, like what happened with Tuel, etc.except much better then Tuel, etc, and is a AWESOME QB now.
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Zero picks this year. ZERO. How is this NOT growth/ development/progress worthy of note? That's all I have to say about that.
Cam is on pace to have about 4500 pass yards, 45 TD's, technically zero INT'S, but probably will probably only have about 2 to 4 to 6 INT's, all season long.
Last WSU QB to come even remotely close to having that kind of season, is, was Ryan Leaf, that had about 3800 yards passing, and about 38 TD's, and about 10 to 13 to 15 INT's.
Pretty sure a couple of air raiders had stats that blew out Leafs. AG, Minshew, and Falk probably all had bigger numbers. Different eras of course so not taking anything away from leaf that was a monster year during that time.
It is. One would have to admit they were way wrong, which will not happen. Literally to the point of rooting for him to have a bad game I’m sure.
Ah, the predictable moving of the goalposts. I forgot that those IWU starts aren't college enough to count as college football. Even when a couple of them are in the FCS playoffs, those are beneath us.
I would argue that he had the benefit of those starts to transition his game to the FBS level, which none of those other QBs did. But, fine. Have it your way. Take away the 19 IWU starts. That leaves him with 17, which is within a game of where Bledsoe, Rypien, and Rosenbach were at the beginning of their final years. Were any of them "young guys" "early in their career?" I'd say no, and I'd also say he's not where they were.
He's been better than last year, but again, that's barely a compliment. As for "how well he's executed the offense"...let's look at that:
Wisconsin:
1st quarter: 7 pts, 6 first downs, 9/12 for 99 pass yards, 118 total yards. 2/4 on third down. 8:37 on 3 possessions. No 3 & outs.
2nd quarter: 10 offensive points , 5 first downs, 7/10 107 pass yards, 99 total yards. 1/3 3rd downs. 6:30 on 3 possessions. 1 3 & out.
3rd quarter: 0 points, 2 first downs, 4/7 for 27 pass yards, 40 total yards. 1/3 3rd down. 4:48, 3 possessions. 2 3 & out
4th quarter: 7 points, 6 first downs, 2/5 for 14 pass yards, 80 total yards. 3/5 3rd down. 10:33, 3 possessions, 0 3 & out
Oregon State:
1st quarter: 14 points, 10 first downs, 11/12 for 169 pass yards, 195 total. 2/2 3rd down. 8:30 on 3 possessions, 0 3 & out
2nd quarter: 14 points, 8 first downs, 8/8 for 124, 157 total. 2/2 3rd down. 5:43 on 3 possessions. 0 3 & out, lost 2 fumbles.
3rd quarter: 7 points, 5 first downs, 7/10 for 81, 88 total. 0/2 3rd down. 5:50 on 2 possessions. 1 3 & out (missed FG)
4th quarter: 3 points, 4 first downs, 3/5 for 48, 88 total. 1/3 3rd down, 0/1 4th. 8:34 on 3 possessions. 0 3 & out.
So, against our 2 opponents with a pulse, we've scored 45 offensive points in the first half and 17 in the second. 499 passing yards before the half, 170 after. 29 first downs before, 17 after. 7/11 on 3rd down before, 5/13 after.
Points by quarter: 21, 24, 7, 10
Passing yards by quarter: 268, 231, 108, 62
Some of this is late strategy when we're sitting on a lead and bleeding clock. That explains our big TOP advantage in the 4th quarter. That strategy doesn't account for our offensive numbers falling off a cliff in the 2nd half. We're particularly bad in the 3rd quarter.
My point is, I'm not prepared to give credit for "how well he's executed the offense" until he manages to do it for a full game. We've managed to jump early and coast to wins - and in both games, we needed some key help from the defense. We're not going to be able to take that approach the rest of the way. The whole offense needs to step it up in the second half, and as the offensive leader a big chunk of that is up to Ward.
EDIT TO ADD: By the way, we still don't really know how good Wisconsin and OSU are. Some people are holding those out as valuable measuring sticks, because those teams were ranked when we beat them. BFD. Early season rankings are based on expectations based on last year, which is even less relevant in the NIL world than they were before...and they didn't mean much before.
Truth is, neither Wisconsin or OSU or WSU has played anyone who provides any real measure. Some of you are going to say something about me minimizing our wins because "WSU beat them, they must not be very good." That's just lazy. Look at the reality - Wisconsin has beaten 3 teams that they should have beaten. OSU has beaten 3 teams that they should have beaten. They should have beaten them all comfortably, in the same way that we should have beaten CSU and NCU. None of their wins to date show that OSU or UW is going to win another game. I'm not saying those games are meaningless, but I am saying that we don't yet know what they mean. In the end, it barely matters. For the moment, the UCLA game is the only one that does.
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Sure there is a couple, few, some, that had about 1/3 of those stat categories.
But to get 4500 yards, 45 TD's, and only 2,4,6 INT's ALL AT THE SAME time is HARD to do.
One might get 4500 yards but only have 33 TD's, and 13 INT's.
Another might have 3850 yards and 43 TD's, and 14 INT's.
Another might have 4700 and 46 TD's and 20+ INT's.
It's extremely hard to get the TRIFECTA of about 4500 yards, 45 TD's and only 2,4,6 INT's.
That's why I say that Leaf came the closest to hitting that TRIFECTA, because while other QB's had better stats in 1,2 of the trifecta categories, Leaf's TRIFECTA of about 3800, 38 TD's, LOW INT's, is a better TRIFECTA then 4500 yards, 27 TD's, 17 INT's, etc.
Many Air Raid QB's had, hit 1,2 of the Trifecta, but many of the Air Raid QB's had at least 1 of the trifecta category stats be a semi lot lower, example 25 TD's, 18 INT's, etc.
Leaf had one of the better, semi best OVERALL TRIFECTA, even tho he played in a era that didn't pass as much, and even tho Air Raid QB's had more yards(About 4300 yards), or more TD's, but more INT's, etc.
Leaf, Gordon, Minshew, had the best OVERALL TRIFECTA'S
Do you guys really think that his 19 starts at Incarnate Word are directly comparable to FBS starts? Also, for all of the talk about Eric Morris being a great offensive coordinator...he had the good fortune to have a fella by the name of Patrick Mahomes when he was OC at Texas Tech. Ward has had three different offensive coordinators and three different quarterbacks coaches in the past three seasons.
I wasn't impressed by Ward last year but he's playing much better this year. And despite what some has-beens think, he's playing great this year. It seems weird to be bitching that he should have been better sooner when he's making Heisman lists this year. It's like some folks just want to be pissed off at our players.
You can add to that, that Cam in Highschool, was a Highschool football version of James Donaldson(The BLOODY DAM AWKWARD 7 FOOTER that was so clutsy, inexperienced, etc, his first 2 seasons , before he became a NBA player.)
Cam was a extreme late bloomer in highschool, that was extremely inexperienced, etc, like a Donaldson, like a Tuel, etc, in Highschool.
He was only a 2.5 star recruit in highschool.
He was WAY BEHIND past WSU QB's at the same stage they came out of Highschool.
Those past WSU QB's had a LOT of QUALITY HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL experience.
If they had been as far behind as Cam was in Highschool, and then if they had been FCS, and then if they had had such a bad OC Morris, bad QB coach Morris that did such a sucky job developing then, then they would have taken as long as Cam took to be good, etc.
The Cam Naysayers are coming off as MORONS.
QB's that make HEISMAN list usually are not bad, sucky College QB's.
And usually if NFL scouts are saying that a QB is a NFL Draft QB, like what they are saying about Cam, are usually not bad, sucky College QB's
As MR SPOCK would say, the Cam NAYSAYERS are being MORONICALLY ILLOGICAL, Unscientific, Unfactual, etc.
Good points. Let’s be real though FCS competition allows a guy like Ward to not be punished for bad habits. He could outrun DBs and linebackers, something he found out last year he couldn’t do. He could throw floaters off his back foot, now 4.4 40 Safeties run across half the field to pick those. It’s not moving the goalposts it’s reality.
I’m in agreement with you on the 3rd quarter sloppiness. I’m not sure how much of that stuff is on ward though, false starts, missed assignments and blocks by the line and backs, seems to be more the culprit. Sure he hasn’t been perfect but damn, he just won like 3 national weekly awards…he’s playing pretty well and most importantly, continuing to improve and be more in synch with the offense and receivers.
WTF is this thread even about? We are 4-0, ranked 16th, and all you guys want do is piss and moan about Cam? C'mon.
You're counting his FCS games, which is fine, but he's played just about the same number of games as everyone on that list. Apart from games played, who on that list is better than Ward?
Ward vs. Thompson? Tough to compare era's, but I'll vote Thompson
Ward vs. Falk? Ward
Ward vs. Gesser? Ward
Ward. vs. Leaf? Leaf
Ward vs. Brink, Tuel, and Rosey? Ward
Ward vs. Rypien, Bledsoe? I'll vote Bledsoe, and Rypien but it's close.
You wanna know what this thread is about Loyal? It’s about one jackass who thinks he’s smarter than everyone because he coaches junior high football, refusing to admit he was wrong about Ward and Dickert. Of course he won’t see this cuz he’s a pussy and ignored me because he knows GD well how full of shit he is.
And Why the F do you care? And there are multiple posters ranking on Cam. Hey I would rather see Mateer out there, but he is relegated to spot duty for now. Let it go.
Let what go? You asked what this was about and I told you. Cams #s and 4-0 says it all I don’t need to say shit.
You’d rather have mateer giving you a lap dance in his jock strap.
That "one jackass" is living in someone's head rent free. And he's loving it.
Ward has got a long ways to go before it’s worth discussing how he compares to that list of quarterbacks.
What makes these comparisons difficult is that it isn’t just about arm strength and athleticism. I’d argue that to this point, while Ward is clearly physically superior to Gesser, Jason was the better QB overall because of his leadership. Fair or not, Ward is behind Gesser until he leads us to a win over either Oregon or UW.
On the Brink, Tuel and Rosie vote…that’s a closer one but the only one where I’d give Ward the clear edge is Tuel. Brink had plenty of big number games but didn’t have meaningful wins because of a terrible defense. Rosie was streaky but a win over #1 UCLA and a Top 25 finish means something.
Regardless, it’s too early to say anything more than Ward is looking great so far and we all hope it continues.
I think Ward has looked far better this year than last, and I credit a lot of that not just to him, but to Arbuckle. This new offense is not only a better offense, but it's better suited TO HIM. Ward is not a guy who seems that great at find his fourth receiver in the progressions. He seems to have Luke Falk field vision, but enough athleticism to bail him out of it at least half the time. Arbuckle's offense addresses this problem, as well as our iffy offensive line, by making everything predicated on speed. Run up to the line, quick counts, quick snaps, catch defenders relaxing, quick simple reads, plays selections that show a LOT of variety in where they're directed, attack attack attack, build the rhythm, keep the defense confused and on its heels, I suspect largely based on filmstudy of tendencies. I think Dickert's staff did their homework on last year's game, and on these Beavs, and it paid off. The approach is blasting people in the first half. In the second, when the other staff catches up, things get tougher. The one thing I will say about Ward that has undeniably improved is his accuracy. I don't know how much of it is simply easier, on rhythm throws, and how much of it is just work, but when he has a clean pocket he consistently drops dimes now. I hope we keep Arbuckle, because this offense is fun to watch.
Cam Ward will be a day 1 NFL pick.
He threw six passes in a wing T offense in high school.
Shit on Ward all you want but clinging to your bitterness will only cause you to miss out on his amazing story unfolding in real time.
Perhaps but, at least I can watch the games live and don’t have to work on Saturdays!
I'm ranking them based on my eyes only. Gesser was, in my opinion, the most overrated QB in school history. Tough kid. I liked him, but he benefited from surrounding talent more than any QB on that list apart from Leaf.
Maybe I should have phrased my original post differently. Ward would have beaten out Tuel, Brink, and Gesser. Rosey and Ward would have been neck and neck.
I wont give you that on Gesser.
Also... I will wait to vote on any of this until the end of the season.
As I had posted previously... I'm just not 100% on YES or NO on Ward.
Don't get it twisted... Ward has been awesome so far this year, but 4 games is nothing more than 4 games.
There are some of his decisions that look to be so moronic (much fewer than last year) that testing them against Whoregon... Fuw and even Cal will give a better read.
Cal's defense has baby mama drama for us forever-ever
To refuse to include in the evaluation of a qb the things he does poorly is ridiculous. You give credit for things a qb does well for sure. You do not ignore the things he does poorly. There is a bare minimum competency required to play qb. Throwing bad picks, fumbling the snap and fumbling the ball in the pocket just don’t make you competent. It is those things you can’t do against better teams and expect to win. Against a lesser team you can overcome them. Against Oregon, they turn it into points.
In the NFL, you will get benched and never play again because you will lose the game and cost people their jobs.
Cam Ward is nowhere near being a day one selection right now.
I preach about the volume of games he has started because there comes a point when the qb has to have those questions answered. If you are 40 starts into your college career and you are still making dumb mistakes, when does the light go on? When do you have enough reps to turn the corner?
When is Ward going to walk onto the field with complete command of the offense? Have total control over mistakes made? Not allow the wheels to come off in a series and have a team race back into the game? Show up after halftime and not allow the offense to disappear? Cause it hasn’t happened yet.
Cal and ASU, have been PAUL WULF bad vs FCS teams, and PAUL WULF BAD vs G5, P4,5 teams.
WSU is PROBABLY NOT going to lose or even struggle in a win against a PAUL WULF BAD CAL, ASU level team(s).
UW, Oregon will absolutely not only be test, but probably be losses.
UCLA, CU are semi test.
Stanford, Cal, ASU are, should be EASY PEASY wins.
WSU goes 9-4 at ultimate extreme worst.
Either 8-4 regular season, + a bowl game win, or 9-3, + a bowl game loss.
10-3 at average.
Either 9-3 + a bowl game win, or 10-2, + a bowl game loss.
And 11-2 at best. Either 10-2 + a bowl game win, or 11-1 + a bowl game loss.
I think you forget how bad Paul Wulff teams were. ASU played USC on Saturday. They were in the game until about 5 minutes left in the 4th Q. Paul Wulff went up against USC at home. They kneeled on our 10 yard line before half they were kicking our asses so bad.
There are zero Pac-12 teams this year that are Paul Wulff bad. Not even close to it. The only game I’m comfortable saying we should easily win is Stanford. Arizona is close but they are improved. Everyone else if we don’t come to play we can lose.
the worst I've ever seen, and it isn't close And I've been going to pac 12 games since 1978, worse even than the horrible beaver squads of the 80's
I get where you are coming from on Gesser. He had a tendency to throw punts, particularly when his thumb was injured, and our wide receivers bailed him out all the time. That said, our offense went in the sh!tter against UW when Kegel stepped on the field after Gesser got hurt. I'm dying on the hill that we would have given OU a run for their money in the Rose Bowl if Gesser was healthy.
The thing that Gesser brought to the field as much as talent was a winning attitude. Our win over USC in 2002 is arguably the best win in school history. #1 UCLA in 1988 is close...but the Bruins lost again not too long after we beat them. USC ran the table after our game in 2002 and by the end of the season, they were clearly in the conversation for best team. I guarantee that Ohio State and Miami are glad that a 12 team playoff didn't exist back then.
For all of Gesser's many flaws, the kid was the veritable definition of being a ball player and the team was better just because he stepped onto the playing surface. He has the "IT" factor that only a few QB's have. Until WSU beats a legit Top 10 opponent with Ward under center, he is on the outside looking in.
I keep forgetting that [fill in name of whoever Biggs uses as the gold standard for QB play] never turned the ball over, continually improved, and never had a rough game or a negative play.
He's a junior. So, he's not early in his career. It's more than half over.
When does Ward stop being maligned by the dumbest poster on this board? You read that correctly. Biggs has seized the title of dumbest poster on this board. It's not really a contest anymore.
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