Partial unemployment/partial furlough in this situation

[cr8zyncalif]

For those unfamiliar with the concept, in those states that allow it (CA does; I can't speak for others), partial furlough is a good way to go. In my over simplified, non-HR, non-legal language (though I have had to get up to speed pretty quick in my role in our company), here is the essence of how it works in California. I assume there are similarities in most states.

What you probably know about is being fired vs. laid off. Firing is for cause. A layoff is due to work conditions. If you are terminated either way, and apply for unemployment, the state asks the employer to confirm whether the employee was laid off or fired for cause. If for cause, the claim is denied (subject to appeal). If a layoff is confirmed, unemployment starts. I had always thought of it as an "all or nothing" situation, but that is not correct.

What I did not know about until recently was partial unemployment/partial furlough (use the words you prefer). This works exactly the same, up until the first week after the unemployment filing by the employee. If partial furlough is what you are intending, the employee will continue to work. But if they get no more than 80% of normal work hours (i.e., 40 x 80% = 32 hours), then along with their direct deposit acknowledgement that the employee receives from the employer, they also get a form (in CA it is a DE 2063 form) that shows how many hours they worked that week. The employee then forwards that form to the state unemployment office and they are automatically credited with the balance required to get them to 40 hours. If they worked 24 hours, then they receive 16 hours of unemployment. Of course, unemployment is at a lower rate than what they are being paid, and some transfer fees apply. But it permits the employee to remain on the books, receive health insurance if it comes directly from the employer, and get as many hours as are available to work during this situation at their full pay rate. The unemployment acts as a backstop and can vary from week to week.

There are details. Everything counts based on regular hours, so any overtime counts as more than just a single hour against the 32 hours max. If you work 33 or more hours, there is no unemployment contribution. And of course there is minutia that only applies here and there. But in broad strokes, that is how it works. Since we are a contractor, we have some work (both emergency repair and construction) that is still moving, but it is significantly reduced. We've asked all of hour field workforce to do this. The office will be next.

Someone who knows the regulations in WA, please chime in. If this fits just one of you and you and/or your employer did not know of it, I hope this helps.

 

[COUGinNCW]

For those unfamiliar with the concept, in those states that allow it (CA does; I can't speak for others), partial furlough is a good way to go. In my over simplified, non-HR, non-legal language (though I have had to get up to speed pretty quick in my role in our company), here is the essence of how it works in California. I assume there are similarities in most states.

What you probably know about is being fired vs. laid off. Firing is for cause. A layoff is due to work conditions. If you are terminated either way, and apply for unemployment, the state asks the employer to confirm whether the employee was laid off or fired for cause. If for cause, the claim is denied (subject to appeal). If a layoff is confirmed, unemployment starts. I had always thought of it as an "all or nothing" situation, but that is not correct.

What I did not know about until recently was partial unemployment/partial furlough (use the words you prefer). This works exactly the same, up until the first week after the unemployment filing by the employee. If partial furlough is what you are intending, the employee will continue to work. But if they get no more than 80% of normal work hours (i.e., 40 x 80% = 32 hours), then along with their direct deposit acknowledgement that the employee receives from the employer, they also get a form (in CA it is a DE 2063 form) that shows how many hours they worked that week. The employee then forwards that form to the state unemployment office and they are automatically credited with the balance required to get them to 40 hours. If they worked 24 hours, then they receive 16 hours of unemployment. Of course, unemployment is at a lower rate than what they are being paid, and some transfer fees apply. But it permits the employee to remain on the books, receive health insurance if it comes directly from the employer, and get as many hours as are available to work during this situation at their full pay rate. The unemployment acts as a backstop and can vary from week to week.

There are details. Everything counts based on regular hours, so any overtime counts as more than just a single hour against the 32 hours max. If you work 33 or more hours, there is no unemployment contribution. And of course there is minutia that only applies here and there. But in broad strokes, that is how it works. Since we are a contractor, we have some work (both emergency repair and construction) that is still moving, but it is significantly reduced. We've asked all of hour field workforce to do this. The office will be next.

Someone who knows the regulations in WA, please chime in. If this fits just one of you and you and/or your employer did not know of it, I hope this helps.

I work for a large corporation. I hope they take this route as opposed to lopping heads like they did in the great recession. I probably won’t be so lucky this time.

 

[TrumpCoug]

I work for a large corporation. I hope they take this route as opposed to lopping heads like they did in the great recession. I probably won’t be so lucky this time.

Many of us won't be "so lucky". My staffing firm is GONE. Just trying to help my family and neighbors make it through these difficult times. I am grateful that I live in a rural setting and out of San Francisco. Just wish my daughter who is in Berkeley would have listened to me a month ago when I told her to bug out and come to NC while she still had the opportunity to do so.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I'm totally at a loss on how things are going to go. I work for a consulting firm and I've got hundreds of hours of work that "needs" to get done. That said, most of my projects could get cancelled or delayed since they are all irrelevant in the short term. My company has told us to work at home if we want to until April 4th when they would re-evaluate the situation. The good (bad?) news is that my wife is a nurse at a local hospital. Her job security is guaranteed as long as she stays healthy (hoping she does). My company has hundreds (thousands) of billable contracted hours of work that we have scheduled. As long as that doesn't change.....we'll be fine.

I feel bad for the people like my sister who has almost no savings and are screwed if things go south for too long. In January, my wife and daughter were bargaining with me about going to Hawaii this summer. Now, we just hope that we aren't worrying about how to make ends meet this summer. Crazy times.

 

[chipdouglas]

I'm totally at a loss on how things are going to go. I work for a consulting firm and I've got hundreds of hours of work that "needs" to get done. That said, most of my projects could get cancelled or delayed since they are all irrelevant in the short term. My company has told us to work at home if we want to until April 4th when they would re-evaluate the situation. The good (bad?) news is that my wife is a nurse at a local hospital. Her job security is guaranteed as long as she stays healthy (hoping she does). My company has hundreds (thousands) of billable contracted hours of work that we have scheduled. As long as that doesn't change.....we'll be fine.

I feel bad for the people like my sister who has almost no savings and are screwed if things go south for too long. In January, my wife and daughter were bargaining with me about going to Hawaii this summer. Now, we just hope that we aren't worrying about how to make ends meet this summer. Crazy times.

It is really shocking how, within a decade of the end of the Great Recession, there are so many people who learned so little from that time of extreme austerity. I live in a solidly middle-class neighborhood and, between that and friends and family outside the neighborhood, I can't count on two hands how many folks I know who gave themselves 1 month or less of emergency fund.

Brother/sister-in-law who both lost their hourly jobs in LA and can't even pay their $3k/mo rent Month #1. Loads of people in our neighborhood who can't pay the mortgage because 1 person in the couple lost their job. Parents switching from private to public school. Single people who have to choose between mortgage and car payment.

We just finished saving 6+ months of emergency fund because we were affected hugely by the recession. Cannot fathom our friends and family who learned nothing from that same experience, despite many of them having been similarly affected.

EDIT: nearly 80% of Americans admit living paycheck-to-paycheck, fewer than half can afford an unexpected $1k expense, and the average household reports spending $800/mo on car payments (link)

 

[dgibbons]

It is really shocking how, within a decade of the end of the Great Recession, there are so many people who learned so little from that time of extreme austerity. I live in a solidly middle-class neighborhood and, between that and friends and family outside the neighborhood, I can't count on two hands how many folks I know who gave themselves 1 month or less of emergency fund.

Brother/sister-in-law who both lost their hourly jobs in LA and can't even pay their $3k/mo rent Month #1. Loads of people in our neighborhood who can't pay the mortgage because 1 person in the couple lost their job. Parents switching from private to public school. Single people who have to choose between mortgage and car payment.

We just finished saving 6+ months of emergency fund because we were affected hugely by the recession. Cannot fathom our friends and family who learned nothing from that same experience, despite many of them having been similarly affected.

EDIT: nearly 80% of Americans admit living paycheck-to-paycheck, fewer than half can afford an unexpected $1k expense, and the average household reports spending $800/mo on car payments (link)

On top of the lack of cash savings, there are always highly leveraged companies and individuals. A good economy becomes given, rather than extraordinary.

 

[kayak15]

On top of the lack of cash savings, there are always highly leveraged companies and individuals. A good economy becomes given, rather than extraordinary.

This is a further aggravation in the financial problems people are experiencing. I am expecting a significant number of small businesses to fail, depending on how long this lasts. Maybe some large corporations may need to merge or operate at a lower level. Thus those trying to recover from their hopefully temporary impoverishment may find no jobs available for that recovery. Higher unemployment and a lessened job market will result in lower, if any, wage increases which will impact those who do find employment. Our financial recuperation from this will be seriously impaired and last for some years.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

I am grateful that I live in a rural setting and out of San Francisco.

I'm still here. It's been...weird.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I'm totally at a loss on how things are going to go. I work for a consulting firm and I've got hundreds of hours of work that "needs" to get done. That said, most of my projects could get cancelled or delayed since they are all irrelevant in the short term. My company has told us to work at home if we want to until April 4th when they would re-evaluate the situation. The good (bad?) news is that my wife is a nurse at a local hospital. Her job security is guaranteed as long as she stays healthy (hoping she does). My company has hundreds (thousands) of billable contracted hours of work that we have scheduled. As long as that doesn't change.....we'll be fine.

I feel bad for the people like my sister who has almost no savings and are screwed if things go south for too long. In January, my wife and daughter were bargaining with me about going to Hawaii this summer. Now, we just hope that we aren't worrying about how to make ends meet this summer. Crazy times.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

View embedded media

Since the acquisition of my small firm by a much larger firm.....that movie resonates with me so much more.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Since the acquisition of my small firm by a much larger firm.....that movie resonates with me so much more.

Hold on.

You are the Bobs but are experiencing what Peter does?

That's meta.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Hold on.

You are the Bobs but are experiencing what Peter does?

That's meta.

You got it wrong....I'm Lumbergh.

"Could you make sure to use the new cover sheet on the TPS report.....that would be great"

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

You got it wrong....I'm Lumbergh.

"Could you make sure to use the new cover sheet on the TPS report.....that would be great"

You said your company was a consulting firm, which is who the Bobs work for, that's why I went there.

Glad it hit home for you anyway. Now if I can just get that image of Lumberg with Aniston's leg up in the air out of my head...

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You said your company was a consulting firm, which is who the Bobs work for, that's why I went there.

Glad it hit home for you anyway. Now if I can just get that image of Lumberg with Aniston's leg up in the air out of my head...

Not that kind of consulting. I did get to experience the Bobs around 20 years ago. The small company I worked for hired a company like that to review our office practices. They met with us, asked a bunch of questions, and made a bunch of recommendations....that were immediately thrown out the window because it would have destroyed the company.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Not that kind of consulting. I did get to experience the Bobs around 20 years ago. The small company I worked for hired a company like that to review our office practices. They met with us, asked a bunch of questions, and made a bunch of recommendations....that were immediately thrown out the window because it would have destroyed the company.

Steve Jobs on consultants

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Not that kind of consulting. I did get to experience the Bobs around 20 years ago. The small company I worked for hired a company like that to review our office practices. They met with us, asked a bunch of questions, and made a bunch of recommendations....that were immediately thrown out the window because it would have destroyed the company.

Have consulted and been consulted - no one ever heeds the recommendations.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Coug, that is one of the more sensible things that I saw Jobs say over the years. As with Bleed's comment; or, if you prefer, taken straight from Dilbert: much consulting is done, but the recommendations are often at best taken with more than a grain of salt. Jobs offers a group of reasons; the original purpose of initiating the consultation are another (often more political than desiring structural revisions). And Bleed, thank you for The Office clip. A favorite. Sometimes a caricature is a more effective means of communication than a rational discourse (another reason for Dilbert's success).

CouginNCW, I'm afraid if it is a public corporation, the across the board head chopping is more likely; I hope you and/or your company are the exception. It is a challenge to manage limited work across a large group of folks, and most large public corporations are run by folks who lack the skill set to make it work. Smaller companies, private companies and especially companies that traditionally have a big hourly employee component (contracting of all sorts and some manufacturing) can generally make it work pretty easily unless their focus is solely on headcount reduction.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Coug, that is one of the more sensible things that I saw Jobs say over the years. As with Bleed's comment; or, if you prefer, taken straight from Dilbert: much consulting is done, but the recommendations are often at best taken with more than a grain of salt. Jobs offers a group of reasons; the original purpose of initiating the consultation are another (often more political than desiring structural revisions). And Bleed, thank you for The Office clip. A favorite. Sometimes a caricature is a more effective means of communication than a rational discourse (another reason for Dilbert's success).

CouginNCW, I'm afraid if it is a public corporation, the across the board head chopping is more likely; I hope you and/or your company are the exception. It is a challenge to manage limited work across a large group of folks, and most large public corporations are run by folks who lack the skill set to make it work. Smaller companies, private companies and especially companies that traditionally have a big hourly employee component (contracting of all sorts and some manufacturing) can generally make it work pretty easily unless their focus is solely on headcount reduction.

McGinley is classic in this role. Haven't seen him in a while - he had a huge run as the a-hole in ensemble casts and played the part perfectly.

 

[BiggsCoug]

It is really shocking how, within a decade of the end of the Great Recession, there are so many people who learned so little from that time of extreme austerity. I live in a solidly middle-class neighborhood and, between that and friends and family outside the neighborhood, I can't count on two hands how many folks I know who gave themselves 1 month or less of emergency fund.

Brother/sister-in-law who both lost their hourly jobs in LA and can't even pay their $3k/mo rent Month #1. Loads of people in our neighborhood who can't pay the mortgage because 1 person in the couple lost their job. Parents switching from private to public school. Single people who have to choose between mortgage and car payment.

We just finished saving 6+ months of emergency fund because we were affected hugely by the recession. Cannot fathom our friends and family who learned nothing from that same experience, despite many of them having been similarly affected.

EDIT: nearly 80% of Americans admit living paycheck-to-paycheck, fewer than half can afford an unexpected $1k expense, and the average household reports spending $800/mo on car payments (link)

Depending on where you live and your cost of living to income... It may not be easy for people to save up 6 months of living expenses. It isn't cheap to live in some of these metro areas even if you are making a strong check. Scrimp and save? Sure. Don't spend all your money? Yes. Even then some folks have a hard time saving up some cash.

Maybe this changes the way people look at the economy?

Stock market goes up or down. Home prices go up or down. Whatever.

In a strong economy where EVERYONE is making money, people have the ability to save money for a rainy day. If they pissed it all away that's on them.

 

[chipdouglas]

Depending on where you live and your cost of living to income... It may not be easy for people to save up 6 months of living expenses. It isn't cheap to live in some of these metro areas even if you are making a strong check. Scrimp and save? Sure. Don't spend all your money? Yes. Even then some folks have a hard time saving up some cash.

You don't have to save up 6 months of expenses; that was our choice and it's paying off. But we are seeing people who don't have 1 month of expenses, much less 3 or 6. The rest is just excuses. Everyone from investment bankers to dog walkers can dollar cost average with index funds - and should have been given the historic stock market over the last bull market.

Last year I showed our twentysomething babysitter a compound interest scenario chart, showing that if she consistently made modest contributions, she could still live her bohemian lifestyle AND retire with 7 figures. Her response? I'd rather buy a one way ticket to Thailand and draw down my babysitting money.

Similarly, I probably make more money than many of my neighbors, but I'm the only one with a boring car, unfinished basement, modest vacations and zero credit card debt - I save and invest; paying myself now rather than later. My neighbors have his and hers leased Jeeps, 5% down on the house with PMI, cash out refis for renovations, 2 weeks abroad every year, Ubers everywhere, concerts and meals out every night of the week, and are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt.

Ants and grasshoppers. I sacrifice today so I can spend later. They spend today so they can sacrifice later. But someday, someone will see me living comfortably - but not see all the sacrifices I made to get there - and demand that my money be redirected toward the pitiable grasshoppers who spent the last 40 years partying. I don't want that to happen any more than you want your "A" grade on a test redistributed to people who stayed up partying while you were studying.

 

[BiggsCoug]

You don't have to save up 6 months of expenses; that was our choice and it's paying off. But we are seeing people who don't have 1 month of expenses, much less 3 or 6. The rest is just excuses. Everyone from investment bankers to dog walkers can dollar cost average with index funds - and should have been given the historic stock market over the last bull market.

Last year I showed our twentysomething babysitter a compound interest scenario chart, showing that if she consistently made modest contributions, she could still live her bohemian lifestyle AND retire with 7 figures. Her response? I'd rather buy a one way ticket to Thailand and draw down my babysitting money.

Similarly, I probably make more money than many of my neighbors, but I'm the only one with a boring car, unfinished basement, modest vacations and zero credit card debt - I save and invest; paying myself now rather than later. My neighbors have his and hers leased Jeeps, 5% down on the house with PMI, cash out refis for renovations, 2 weeks abroad every year, Ubers everywhere, concerts and meals out every night of the week, and are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt.

Ants and grasshoppers. I sacrifice today so I can spend later. They spend today so they can sacrifice later. But someday, someone will see me living comfortably - but not see all the sacrifices I made to get there - and demand that my money be redirected toward the pitiable grasshoppers who spent the last 40 years partying. I don't want that to happen any more than you want your "A" grade on a test redistributed to people who stayed up partying while you were studying.

Ok. Your message is more than reasonable.

And your advice for the fast food worker in the Puget Sound barely making ends meet while working full time????

There is no YOLO for them.

When you make $2400 per month gross and spend well over $1000 per month on rent, how do you get to one months expenses saved?

I understand what you are talking about. I agree there are people out there pissing away their money on IG selfies in various locals around the world.

You seem to have zero acknowledgement for those grinding away at work and still barely making ends meet. For most of America saving up 1 months living expenses just isn't gonna happen.

Again, maybe the economy shouldn't be evaluated on how well homes are selling and how the stock market is doing. Maybe it should be evaluated on how easily people can save for a rainy day while still paying their bills???

Maybe your neighbors living for show should be shamed. I wouldn't argue with you there. But shaming those grinding away at a job with little opportunity for advancement in career and pay??? Maybe you could be more understanding of them.

We have a poster that just lost his job of 32 years. There will be more like him.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Steve Jobs on consultants

View embedded media

We call ourselves a consulting firm, but it's an engineering design firm.

You don't have to save up 6 months of expenses; that was our choice and it's paying off. But we are seeing people who don't have 1 month of expenses, much less 3 or 6. The rest is just excuses. Everyone from investment bankers to dog walkers can dollar cost average with index funds - and should have been given the historic stock market over the last bull market.

Last year I showed our twentysomething babysitter a compound interest scenario chart, showing that if she consistently made modest contributions, she could still live her bohemian lifestyle AND retire with 7 figures. Her response? I'd rather buy a one way ticket to Thailand and draw down my babysitting money.

Similarly, I probably make more money than many of my neighbors, but I'm the only one with a boring car, unfinished basement, modest vacations and zero credit card debt - I save and invest; paying myself now rather than later. My neighbors have his and hers leased Jeeps, 5% down on the house with PMI, cash out refis for renovations, 2 weeks abroad every year, Ubers everywhere, concerts and meals out every night of the week, and are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt.

Ants and grasshoppers. I sacrifice today so I can spend later. They spend today so they can sacrifice later. But someday, someone will see me living comfortably - but not see all the sacrifices I made to get there - and demand that my money be redirected toward the pitiable grasshoppers who spent the last 40 years partying. I don't want that to happen any more than you want your "A" grade on a test redistributed to people who stayed up partying while you were studying.

It's important to seek a balance in life. I don't agree with a 25 year old sacrificing everything now so that they can retire comfortably at 55 years old. I don't agree with the 25 year old yelling, "YOLO" and going to Thailand. If you've spent your life sacrificing so that you can retire with a large sum of money in the bank, that's great, but I'd say that you are wrong for judging people that have chosen to seek a balance of saving and enjoying life.

We've taken our kids to New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Washington DC, Boston, Seattle, and just about any other major city that's worth a visit. We've visited dozens of national parks. I wouldn't trade the memories generated with my kids for a few years of extra retirement. Of course, when we take those trips, we do try to do so in as fiscally responsible ways as we can. We occasionally splurge for a specific moment, but we don't "waste" money while on trips if we can avoid it.

I say that knowing that I do take the time to save enough money so that my wife and I will retire with 7 digit savings because we do put enough back to get there eventually. I own a BMW....but I bought it used so I could let the first owner eat $35,000 of losses in value. My dad was always a little perturbed that I never bought a Porsche because he would have done that if he was in my shoes. People do need to use common sense in how they spend money, but getting too caught up in saving for retirement at the expense of the now isn't good either. So, be judgmental of the grasshoppers if you want but realize that you can spend your whole life saving and get killed in a car accident.....or die from coronavirus.....and all the money and savings in the world will not save you and you would have sacrificed today for nothing at all. It should be a balancing act.......not shooting for the extreme at either end.

 

[NMBRCRNCHR]

Good conversation here about $ and saving/living, I wish it was talked about more...at home, at school (all grades) and in the news.

Someone above brought up affordability...if my potential earnings are capped by my training/education and housing is astronomical, like in Puget Sound, guess what I am doing, MOVING! There are literally hundreds of places across this great country where housing isn't skewed by thousands of 20 and 30 somethings that make hundreds of thousands per year. I may not be able to make quite as much, but the difference between lower pay and housing isn't as steep. Of course, there are many other things to consider, but if you aren't going to train/educate yourself, I don't accept the griping about an area being affordable or not.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Good conversation here about $ and saving/living, I wish it was talked about more...at home, at school (all grades) and in the news.

Someone above brought up affordability...if my potential earnings are capped by my training/education and housing is astronomical, like in Puget Sound, guess what I am doing, MOVING! There are literally hundreds of places across this great country where housing isn't skewed by thousands of 20 and 30 somethings that make hundreds of thousands per year. I may not be able to make quite as much, but the difference between lower pay and housing isn't as steep. Of course, there are many other things to consider, but if you aren't going to train/educate yourself, I don't accept the griping about an area being affordable or not.

Moving somewhere else is definitely the answer.

Here is why many don't.

Stop thinking like a person that has an abundance of money. From now on, make all your decisions like you had $40 extra at the end of the month.

Where does the first and last month's rent for a new place come from? Where does the security deposit come from? Where does the money to actually pack and move come from?

Those are real challenges for someone barely making ends meet. You wind up in a position where you are trapped. You can't afford to stay but you can't afford to leave either.

Also, what's their credit score like? Bills paid on time when you're this close to the edge? Can be tough to find a place to live.

There are no easy answers for people that are working poor or poor. Typically the people trying to provide those answers don't have the experience of being there.

There was a day when I walked to the grocery store because I didn't have a car. I had $4 in my pocket to buy food for the weekend. Monday morning the cafeteria opened up and I could eat there. This was when I was coaching college football.

I have been broke and I have been flush. Choices I made regarding my life and business were much easier while flush. Choices I made while broke were the equivalent of a multiple choice test where ALL the answers were wrong. Essentially choosing which wrong answer was least wrong or the one you could live with easiest.

I don't accept those with means and opportunities shaming those without means and opportunities. It shows an enormous lack of perspective of others and compassion.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

I've lived in some of those economic destination locations. If you pick Oklahoma, it is much nicer in Tulsa than OK City.

And Boise quit being cheap several years ago.

Biggs, I understand what you are saying. Our school system moved to the "everybody should go to a 4 year college" model decades ago. That was a de facto abandonment of something like 40% of our children, and of the other 60% not all should be pushed in that direction. The other forms of post-high school training were given short shrift, and the spread thin and often not well informed high school guidance counselors often make it worse rather than better with their advice. We now have a semi-permanent economic underclass with no useful training and minimal opportunity. The most effective (though not most immediate) answer is to increase opportunity, and that starts in the primary/secondary education system, then moving into useful training availability for all. A 4 year degree is only one post-high school option for further training, and thankfully I think most of the country is moving back in the direction of shop classes, reasonable JC programs, apprenticeships and other forms of training. Even the military has some useful skills training; I've hired several people who learned our trade while serving. I think that has been recognized in California; the skills training emphasis pendulum is definitely swinging back in the right direction. We still have deplorable inner city schools, but they are probably a little less deplorable than 20 years ago. Much more to be done if we don't want to make permanent the situation that Biggs discusses.

 

[NMBRCRNCHR]

You funny and have no clue about my background or where I come from. Where there is a will, there is a way, I'll leave it that.

The other part of the equation is training/education, there are literally hundreds of programs available to folks for free or very low cost, to further their further their skill and education. If one feels they are trapped where they live, please make an effort to better your position as an employee, potential employee or start your own thing. It can be done.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

You don't have to save up 6 months of expenses; that was our choice and it's paying off. But we are seeing people who don't have 1 month of expenses, much less 3 or 6. The rest is just excuses. Everyone from investment bankers to dog walkers can dollar cost average with index funds - and should have been given the historic stock market over the last bull market.

You forgot large corporations. My only dilemma with letting them go under is the thousands of jobs lost. Other than that, I say let them fail - the market will correct itself.

 

[BiggsCoug]

You funny and have no clue about my background or where I come from. Where there is a will, there is a way, I'll leave it that.

The other part of the equation is training/education, there are literally hundreds of programs available to folks for free or very low cost, to further their further their skill and education. If one feels they are trapped where they live, please make an effort to better your position as an employee, potential employee or start your own thing. It can be done.

I have no idea about most posters here. It is a faceless, genderless person behind a computer.

For you to wave a broad stroke across all people struggling to pull it together is asinine. Can it be done? Yes. Will it be done by all? Nope.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Where there is constant hurdles and drama and disaster, it gets significantly tougher.

Congrats on your success.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I've lived in some of those economic destination locations. If you pick Oklahoma, it is much nicer in Tulsa than OK City.

And Boise quit being cheap several years ago.

Biggs, I understand what you are saying. Our school system moved to the "everybody should go to a 4 year college" model decades ago. That was a de facto abandonment of something like 40% of our children, and of the other 60% not all should be pushed in that direction. The other forms of post-high school training were given short shrift, and the spread thin and often not well informed high school guidance counselors often make it worse rather than better with their advice. We now have a semi-permanent economic underclass with no useful training and minimal opportunity. The most effective (though not most immediate) answer is to increase opportunity, and that starts in the primary/secondary education system, then moving into useful training availability for all. A 4 year degree is only one post-high school option for further training, and thankfully I think most of the country is moving back in the direction of shop classes, reasonable JC programs, apprenticeships and other forms of training. Even the military has some useful skills training; I've hired several people who learned our trade while serving. I think that has been recognized in California; the skills training emphasis pendulum is definitely swinging back in the right direction. We still have deplorable inner city schools, but they are probably a little less deplorable than 20 years ago. Much more to be done if we don't want to make permanent the situation that Biggs discusses.

What used to be the manufacturing plant or the steel mill or the coal mine... is now hospitality or fast food.. I look at the Las Vegas strip and think this is the new steel mill... I see fast food workers and think this is the new manufacturing plant...

People need jobs. Unfortunately, all the jobs were gladly soaked up by China.

From what I've heard and read, trade jobs need people. I agree 100% that the return of shop and trade classes in public education needs to happen.

Kids need to leave high school with as many real world skills as possible. Not everyone is going to be a college grad. Everyone still will want to eat. Creating as many opportunities for kids in K-12 will have dividends down the road.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You funny and have no clue about my background or where I come from. Where there is a will, there is a way, I'll leave it that.

The other part of the equation is training/education, there are literally hundreds of programs available to folks for free or very low cost, to further their further their skill and education. If one feels they are trapped where they live, please make an effort to better your position as an employee, potential employee or start your own thing. It can be done.

Even though I'm sympathetic to the people that feel that they are "trapped" and can't change jobs, it is frustrating when you realize that almost every one of those people had the opportunity at some point and just failed to seize it. My sister lived at home with my parents for years where her expenses were ridiculously low and she could have tried to get additional training. She didn't do that and now she doesn't have the time to make a meaningful change and her glass ceiling feels lower every day. For her to effect a significant change right now is difficult to the point of being stifling. Lots of people in that spot.....but they put themselves there and that's where it gets harder to feel all that sorry.

What's really frustrating is when you realize how the system is actually geared towards encouraging failure rather than success. My wife was laid off in 2013 from her job and decided to take the summer off and hang out with our kids. She rode a bike to football practice with my son, took my daughter to the park, walked her to school for the first month and decompressed for three months overall. When she tried to get a job after staying at home for three months, she found it almost impossible to find a full time job that was worth taking. Full time employers wouldn't give her a serious look because they questioned her decision to spend a summer at home with the kids. Part time jobs paid less than she was getting on unemployment. Frankly, it was all a bunch of crap. What's crazy is that once she had been working for a couple years, she has to turn down job offers that just get thrown at her. The "system" is messed up and doesn't make sense at times.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Ok. Your message is more than reasonable.

And your advice for the fast food worker in the Puget Sound barely making ends meet while working full time????

There is no YOLO for them.

When you make $2400 per month gross and spend well over $1000 per month on rent, how do you get to one months expenses saved?

I understand what you are talking about. I agree there are people out there pissing away their money on IG selfies in various locals around the world.

You seem to have zero acknowledgement for those grinding away at work and still barely making ends meet. For most of America saving up 1 months living expenses just isn't gonna happen.

Again, maybe the economy shouldn't be evaluated on how well homes are selling and how the stock market is doing. Maybe it should be evaluated on how easily people can save for a rainy day while still paying their bills???

Maybe your neighbors living for show should be shamed. I wouldn't argue with you there. But shaming those grinding away at a job with little opportunity for advancement in career and pay??? Maybe you could be more understanding of them.

We have a poster that just lost his job of 32 years. There will be more like him.

I would argue that a lot of what that $2400/ mo earner spends their money on could be done without. How do I know this? I am related to half a dozen of those people, in their 20's, who all have:

Netflix
Hulu
Unlimited data cell phone
Cable
daily coffee/ any amount of coffee out
eating out regularly
and, and, and...

Look, I'm not saying everyone needs to live like a pauper... but maybe they do until they can improve their situation. We've all been there, eating Ramen, scraping together a couple of bucks to pay the lights, watching TV that comes over the rabbit ears. I'm sick of hearing the whining from kids and young adults about not having or being able to survive when they piss away their money on "necessities".

Also, I have little to no sympathy for anyone who doesn't have aspirations to improve their situation. If you are a burger flipper, you better be trying to be the best burger flipper so you can be the burger flipper supervisor, or biding your time while you go to school, or whatever.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Even though I'm sympathetic to the people that feel that they are "trapped" and can't change jobs, it is frustrating when you realize that almost every one of those people had the opportunity at some point and just failed to seize it. My sister lived at home with my parents for years where her expenses were ridiculously low and she could have tried to get additional training. She didn't do that and now she doesn't have the time to make a meaningful change and her glass ceiling feels lower every day. For her to effect a significant change right now is difficult to the point of being stifling. Lots of people in that spot.....but they put themselves there and that's where it gets harder to feel all that sorry.

What's really frustrating is when you realize how the system is actually geared towards encouraging failure rather than success. My wife was laid off in 2013 from her job and decided to take the summer off and hang out with our kids. She rode a bike to football practice with my son, took my daughter to the park, walked her to school for the first month and decompressed for three months overall. When she tried to get a job after staying at home for three months, she found it almost impossible to find a full time job that was worth taking. Full time employers wouldn't give her a serious look because they questioned her decision to spend a summer at home with the kids. Part time jobs paid less than she was getting on unemployment. Frankly, it was all a bunch of crap. What's crazy is that once she had been working for a couple years, she has to turn down job offers that just get thrown at her. The "system" is messed up and doesn't make sense at times.

Your wife's situation more reflects the (and I hate to use this word, because its over- used) inherent misogyny in the workplace, not the system in general.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Your wife's situation more reflects the (and I hate to use this word, because its over- used) inherent misogyny in the workplace, not the system in general.

It could be that, but given that she's a nurse and 91% of nurses are women, you wouldn't think that's the case....but I can't say that it wasn't a factor. My daughter started working at McDonald's last year (I know the owner) but she is getting burned out and thinking she needs a change of place. I told her that she should get the new job before quitting McDonald's just so she doesn't have to justify why she isn't working at the time of the application.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I would argue that a lot of what that $2400/ mo earner spends their money on could be done without. How do I know this? I am related to half a dozen of those people, in their 20's, who all have:

Netflix
Hulu
Unlimited data cell phone
Cable
daily coffee/ any amount of coffee out
eating out regularly
and, and, and...

Look, I'm not saying everyone needs to live like a pauper... but maybe they do until they can improve their situation. We've all been there, eating Ramen, scraping together a couple of bucks to pay the lights, watching TV that comes over the rabbit ears. I'm sick of hearing the whining from kids and young adults about not having or being able to survive when they piss away their money on "necessities".

Also, I have little to no sympathy for anyone who doesn't have aspirations to improve their situation. If you are a burger flipper, you better be trying to be the best burger flipper so you can be the burger flipper supervisor, or biding your time while you go to school, or whatever.

I don't disagree with you that someone in those circumstances could be more frugal. What you are forgetting is this... How much more frugal can they be??

You bring home $2400...
rent is $1400
house bills might be another $300
gas?
food?
phone?
clothes?
any unseen expense like an oil change?

Things are getting tight already. So when I see people talk about saving for a rainy day or pandemic or talking about being frugal... Shit man, there is only so much meat on the bone. Even if they are all of the things you suggest, there still isn't much left to really make a dent in anything. Save the extra $40 per month you have for a year and what is that really gonna do for you??? Save it for 2 years or 3 years, what is that really gonna do for you??

The answer is a whole lot of not much. The best burger flipper isn't gonna go from $15 an hour to $40 an hour. Which in the Puget Sound, may be what they need to get ahead.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I don't disagree with you that someone in those circumstances could be more frugal. What you are forgetting is this... How much more frugal can they be??

You bring home $2400...
rent is $1400
house bills might be another $300
gas?
food?
phone?
clothes?
any unseen expense like an oil change?

Things are getting tight already. So when I see people talk about saving for a rainy day or pandemic or talking about being frugal... Shit man, there is only so much meat on the bone. Even if they are all of the things you suggest, there still isn't much left to really make a dent in anything. Save the extra $40 per month you have for a year and what is that really gonna do for you??? Save it for 2 years or 3 years, what is that really gonna do for you??

The answer is a whole lot of not much. The best burger flipper isn't gonna go from $15 an hour to $40 an hour. Which in the Puget Sound, may be what they need to get ahead.

We've been down this road on this board: $15/hr jobs aren't meant for people to make a career out of. They're supposed to be stepping stones to better things - Taco Bell is begging for managers, literally offering 6 figures to the right people. There are opportunities there, but lets be honest - a lot of these people don't want more responsibility or work. They are "happy" to barely get by, doing the bare minimum to survive, but are first in line to bitch and whine about rent (in downtown Seattle ) and whatever else.

Don't hand me the one-offs either - the single mom or whatever. Most of these kids have opportunity to make change, they chose not to. Heres a number I'd like to see: how many Gen Y/Z/Millenials have ever held down two jobs at once? Compare to Gen X/ Boomers/ greatest generation. When I say I see this first hand, I mean I talk to the father of my great niece about why he doesn't get a second job and he looks at me like I have a second head. I mean, even if you only work that second job to get caught up or maybe put some $$ in savings, at least you can say you did something. Instead, we have an entire generation of Boomers and Gen X parents who bail their kids out every time they need something, especially financially. While that's nice to be able to do, it doesn't let them learn how to be self sufficient.

 

[BSpike76]

We've been down this road on this board: $15/hr jobs aren't meant for people to make a career out of. They're supposed to be stepping stones to better things - Taco Bell is begging for managers, literally offering 6 figures to the right people. There are opportunities there, but lets be honest - a lot of these people don't want more responsibility or work. They are "happy" to barely get by, doing the bare minimum to survive, but are first in line to bitch and whine about rent (in downtown Seattle ) and whatever else.

Don't hand me the one-offs either - the single mom or whatever. Most of these kids have opportunity to make change, they chose not to. Heres a number I'd like to see: how many Gen Y/Z/Millenials have ever held down two jobs at once? Compare to Gen X/ Boomers/ greatest generation. When I say I see this first hand, I mean I talk to the father of my great niece about why he doesn't get a second job and he looks at me like I have a second head. you only work that second job to get caught up or maybe some $$ in savings, at least you can say you did something. Instead, we have an entire generation of Boomers and Gen X parents who.

Hillbilly Elegy covers this pretty well.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Hillbilly Elegy covers this pretty well.

I haven't read the book, but it sounds like perhaps he's disparaging them, while I'm trying not to.

I have relatives in the deep south that are perfectly content to live modestly, which is being conservative with their situation. Of course they all talk about winning the lotto, but outside of that none are overly eager to change their situation for the better through schooling, training, or doing additional work, and that's fine. They also aren't demanding something from someone else, or moving to Atlanta to have a cool lifestyle and then bitching about the rent.

 

[dgibbons]

I would argue that a lot of what that $2400/ mo earner spends their money on could be done without. How do I know this? I am related to half a dozen of those people, in their 20's, who all have:

Netflix
Hulu
Unlimited data cell phone
Cable
daily coffee/ any amount of coffee out
eating out regularly
and, and, and...

Look, I'm not saying everyone needs to live like a pauper... but maybe they do until they can improve their situation. We've all been there, eating Ramen, scraping together a couple of bucks to pay the lights, watching TV that comes over the rabbit ears. I'm sick of hearing the whining from kids and young adults about not having or being able to survive when they piss away their money on "necessities".

Also, I have little to no sympathy for anyone who doesn't have aspirations to improve their situation. If you are a burger flipper, you better be trying to be the best burger flipper so you can be the burger flipper supervisor, or biding your time while you go to school, or whatever.

You didn’t list tattoos or weed as unnecessary expenses.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

You didn’t list tattoos or weed as unnecessary expenses.

tattoos, 100% yes.

I don't use weed, but I feel like the kids that do do so instead of alcohol. I'm not going to tell someone they can't buy a sixer for the weekend or whatever (dropping $50 to go out to a bar is a different story), and for some kids some weed (I don't know what compares to a 6 pack) is their escapism.

THAT BEING SAID - and again, anecdotal but personal experience says that most kids smoking weed are doing so several times a week and not just on the weekends. AND most vape and/ or smoke cigarettes.

 

[BSpike76]

I haven't read the book, but it sounds like perhaps he's disparaging them, while I'm trying not to.

I have relatives in the deep south that are perfectly content to live modestly, which is being conservative with their situation. Of course they all talk about winning the lotto, but outside of that none are overly eager to change their situation for the better through schooling, training, or doing additional work, and that's fine. They also aren't demanding something from someone else, or moving to Atlanta to have a cool lifestyle and then bitching about the rent.

I wouldn’t say disparaging as just trying to understand how they came to that point.