So you’re saying there’s a chance

[dgibbons]

Let's examine that. I agree WSU was viewed by some of a G of 5 level program with P5 status. So how did that affect recruiting to date? WSU would recruit toward the lower end of P5 but almost always beating out every single G of 5 program, both in the aggregate and with regard to particular recruits.

I used to be really into recruiting. I got less into it in recent years when it became apparent this was all going to hell due to NIL and unfettered transfers anyway, but something like 90% of the time, we were getting the kid because we were the only P5 offer or, pretty often but more rarely, we were beating out lower-end P5s occasionally (Arizona, Colorado, etc.). And that's with Leach as a coach, winning in the top 1/3 in the league, with pretty good assistants for most of that, especially toward the earlier portion of Leach's tenure, and so on.

So now WSU becomes a G of 5 program that belongs there in terms of its stadium, facilities, etc. (yes, even G of 5 programs have FOBs, and all meaningful northern ones have IPFs, that are pretty nice; most don't face the high construction costs in Pullman and got away with getting 90% of the benefits for 35% of the cash). But WSU still has to try to recruit to Pullman, Washington. That location is a tough sell even against most MWC schools, especially once the former P5 status fades, coaching and recruiting budgets are slashed, WSU's lousy travel becomes more significant to assistants and their families when they are making chump change (and to recruits), we have a stadium with 8,000 people in it for some lower-end home games, and so on.

So losing the one thing that allowed us to recruit where we did, which basically was like a high-end G of 5 team, doesn't strike you as being tremendously impactful ... because some recruits viewed us as a bullshit P5 team? We weren't getting those kids anyway, and we sure as hell aren't now. But we are going to lose out on our bread and butter, the kids who otherwise wanted no part of Pullman but wanted to play in the Pac-12. Trust me. Or don't. WSU will recruit in the middle to lower end of the MWC over time. So welcome to the Utah State / Wyoming hybrid.

I apologize to anyone I've offended lately with some of the vehemence in these rants. I just can't believe how screwed we are in terms of any actual relevance, with massive consequences for the university (which is poorly positioned to lose such a key benefit as big-time athletics), and am a bit incredulous anyone doesn't see it. It's plain as day.

ALL IS WELL!

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Let's examine that. I agree WSU was viewed by some of a G of 5 level program with P5 status. So how did that affect recruiting to date? WSU would recruit toward the lower end of P5 but almost always beating out every single G of 5 program, both in the aggregate and with regard to particular recruits.

I used to be really into recruiting. I got less into it in recent years when it became apparent this was all going to hell due to NIL and unfettered transfers anyway, but something like 90% of the time, we were getting the kid because we were the only P5 offer or, pretty often but more rarely, we were beating out lower-end P5s occasionally (Arizona, Colorado, etc.). And that's with Leach as a coach, winning in the top 1/3 in the league, with pretty good assistants for most of that, especially toward the earlier portion of Leach's tenure, and so on.

So now WSU becomes a G of 5 program that belongs there in terms of its stadium, facilities, etc. (yes, even G of 5 programs have FOBs, and all meaningful northern ones have IPFs, that are pretty nice; most don't face the high construction costs in Pullman and got away with getting 90% of the benefits for 35% of the cash). But WSU still has to try to recruit to Pullman, Washington. That location is a tough sell even against most MWC schools, especially once the former P5 status fades, coaching and recruiting budgets are slashed, WSU's lousy travel becomes more significant to assistants and their families when they are making chump change (and to recruits), we have a stadium with 8,000 people in it for some lower-end home games, and so on.

So losing the one thing that allowed us to recruit where we did, which basically was like a high-end G of 5 team, doesn't strike you as being tremendously impactful ... because some recruits viewed us as a bullshit P5 team? We weren't getting those kids anyway, and we sure as hell aren't now. But we are going to lose out on our bread and butter, the kids who otherwise wanted no part of Pullman but wanted to play in the Pac-12. Trust me. Or don't. WSU will recruit in the middle to lower end of the MWC over time. So welcome to the Utah State / Wyoming hybrid.

I apologize to anyone I've offended lately with some of the vehemence in these rants. I just can't believe how screwed we are in terms of any actual relevance, with massive consequences for the university (which is poorly positioned to lose such a key benefit as big-time athletics), and am a bit incredulous anyone doesn't see it. It's plain as day.

Don't apologize buddy. I for one am not at all offended. Thing is this - we got waxed by Fresno State in the bowl game. We have lost to other Mtn West and FCS programs. Hell the mutts got beat by Montana. A well coached team with 2 star players can do just fine. We are not and would have never been a Blue Blood program. And yes this will have serious financial and prestige related problems. But you play the hand you are dealt with. Just join or merge with the MW and go from there, Nothing wrong with being the Marquee team in a smaller pond.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

ALL IS WELL!

View embedded media

Great scene with a young Kevin Bacon.

 

[dgibbons]

Don't apologize buddy. I for one am not at all offended. Thing is this - we got waxed by Fresno State in the bowl game. We have lost to other Mtn West and FCS programs. Hell the mutts got beat by Montana. A well coached team with 2 star players can do just fine. We are not and would have never been a Blue Blood program. And yes this will have serious financial and prestige related problems. But you play the hand you are dealt with. Just join or merge with the MW and go from there, Nothing wrong with being the Marquee team in a smaller pond.

We won't be marquee once things normalize. Do you think all of sudden WSU fans who for decades have done jack squat to support athletics are going to open their wallets to fill the $30 million hole the budget? And even if WSU becomes "marquee", you're talking about embracing irrelevant status.

 

[425cougfan]

Don't apologize buddy. I for one am not at all offended. Thing is this - we got waxed by Fresno State in the bowl game. We have lost to other Mtn West and FCS programs. Hell the mutts got beat by Montana. A well coached team with 2 star players can do just fine. We are not and would have never been a Blue Blood program. And yes this will have serious financial and prestige related problems. But you play the hand you are dealt with. Just join or merge with the MW and go from there, Nothing wrong with being the Marquee team in a smaller pond.

Dude, that's the point (in addition to the university facing tremendous issues with its debt and broader impacts on the school). We're not a marquee team in the MWC in the medium to long term. Not at all.

 

[dgibbons]

Dude, that's the point (in addition to the university facing tremendous issues with its debt and broader impacts on the school). We're not a marquee team in the MWC in the medium to long term. Not at all.

Best analogy, IMO, is Nevada. Chronic underfunding, mediocre booster support, etc.

But missing beer in the stadium.

 

[95coug]

Best analogy, IMO, is Nevada. Chronic underfunding, mediocre booster support, etc.

But missing beer in the stadium.

Stay tuned on that. Its coming. Faster now that we will have more desperation for a revenue stream.

 

[95coug]

Let's examine that. I agree WSU was viewed by some of a G of 5 level program with P5 status. So how did that affect recruiting to date? WSU would recruit toward the lower end of P5 but almost always beating out every single G of 5 program, both in the aggregate and with regard to particular recruits.

I used to be really into recruiting. I got less into it in recent years when it became apparent this was all going to hell due to NIL and unfettered transfers anyway, but something like 90% of the time, we were getting the kid because we were the only P5 offer or, pretty often but more rarely, we were beating out lower-end P5s occasionally (Arizona, Colorado, etc.). And that's with Leach as a coach, winning in the top 1/3 in the league, with pretty good assistants for most of that, especially toward the earlier portion of Leach's tenure, and so on.

So now WSU becomes a G of 5 program that belongs there in terms of its stadium, facilities, etc. (yes, even G of 5 programs have FOBs, and all meaningful northern ones have IPFs, that are pretty nice; most don't face the high construction costs in Pullman and got away with getting 90% of the benefits for 35% of the cash). But WSU still has to try to recruit to Pullman, Washington. That location is a tough sell even against most MWC schools, especially once the former P5 status fades, coaching and recruiting budgets are slashed, WSU's lousy travel becomes more significant to assistants and their families when they are making chump change (and to recruits), we have a stadium with 8,000 people in it for some lower-end home games, and so on.

So losing the one thing that allowed us to recruit where we did, which basically was like a high-end G of 5 team, doesn't strike you as being tremendously impactful ... because some recruits viewed us as a bullshit P5 team? We weren't getting those kids anyway, and we sure as hell aren't now. But we are going to lose out on our bread and butter, the kids who otherwise wanted no part of Pullman but wanted to play in the Pac-12. Trust me. Or don't. WSU will recruit in the middle to lower end of the MWC over time. So welcome to the Utah State / Wyoming hybrid.

I apologize to anyone I've offended lately with some of the vehemence in these rants. I just can't believe how screwed we are in terms of any actual relevance, with massive consequences for the university (which is poorly positioned to lose such a key benefit as big-time athletics), and am a bit incredulous anyone doesn't see it. It's plain as day.

You might be right. Honestly I haven't put that much analysis into it because I don't care. CFB has been less fun for a couple years. WSU hasn't made any effort - ever - to engage. NIL made it worse. And now that this round of realignment has given up any pretense of being about anything but money (except by Stanford & Cal - I still don't get that one), my motivation to spend the effort is basically gone.

It barely matters where we end up. I saw the Golden years live, whatever comes next I'll be fine watching on TV. CFB in general and WSU in particular has been more interested in people on couches than in the stands for at least a decade, so...fine. If the doomsdayers are right, the academic side will be a better place for my cash anyway.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Don't apologize buddy. I for one am not at all offended. Thing is this - we got waxed by Fresno State in the bowl game. We have lost to other Mtn West and FCS programs. Hell the mutts got beat by Montana. A well coached team with 2 star players can do just fine. We are not and would have never been a Blue Blood program. And yes this will have serious financial and prestige related problems. But you play the hand you are dealt with. Just join or merge with the MW and go from there, Nothing wrong with being the Marquee team in a smaller pond.

holy shit loyal, put down the Hamms and take off the crimson colored glasses.

2 star football is bad at any level. CPW bad. Doesn't matter the competition, it's just bad football.CPW thought he could coach up 2 star talent, how'd that work out?

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Not sure you're grasping what's going on here or what will transpire over the next 2-5 years. The G of 5 guys we used to get because we were Power 5 aren't coming now. That isn't to say we won't ever get anyone from the G of 5, so no quoting this thing when we get some kid who is not getting playing time at Nevada or whatever, especially if there's a coaching connection. But we had a hard enough time getting those guys previously, and this is much more impactful on our recruiting and retention than many seem to appreciate.

WSU is going to become something like a hybrid of Utah State and Wyoming over time. The highlight of the year will be beating the occasional team in a conference that actually is relevant, like Wyoming did with Tech, and maybe winning a bowl game vs. a MAC team if half the team doesn't opt-out. Exciting. In truly exceptional years--which possibly won't ever happen due to WSU's place in the MWC over time--WSU can be the Mountain West team beating the disinterested 5th-best Pac-12 team in the LA Bowl or something and wind up ranked somewhere between 20th and receiving some votes. That's like a once-a-decade thing if not rarer. Get those season ticket deposits in.

When you back things out to 30,000 feet and we are talking about stuff like the impacts of Larry Scott's failure to get a network partner, his waste, the foolish retention of ownership that created misaligned incentives with those who really run college football (ESPN and Fox), and his stupid bet on streaming, the impacts of NIL and unfettered transfers, and everything else like that when it comes to how money and strategy are going to impact WSU, I've been dead-on about everything in the past dozen years. Only thing I'd call a miss was not seeing 2018 coming, and that wasn't as much about money or strategy as it was about good football on the field with health and Minshew and a lot of things aligning. Glad I got to go to that Alamo Bowl in person, though, because it was, as one more call I made, probably as good as it ever would be going forward for WSU.

You guys who don't understand how bad this is are not getting it. At all.

Speaking of TT playing AT Wyoming...

Wyoming has also hosted Texas in the past several years, too.

Tell me how they get a home game with both of those teams and we will get our first OOC game at Martin with a P5 Wisconsin next week. First P5 OOC since last century.

 

[longtimecoug]

holy suit loyal, put down the Hamms and take off the crimson colored glasses.

2 star football is bad at any level. CPW bad. Doesn't matter the competition, it's just bad football.CPW thought he could coach up 2 star talent, how'd that work out?

Wulff recruited 1 star talent

 

[COUGinNCW]

Speaking of TT playing AT Wyoming...

Wyoming has also hosted Texas in the past several years, too.

Tell me how they get a home game with both of those teams and we will get our first OOC game at Martin with a P5 Wisconsin next week. First P5 OOC since last century.

Pretty sure with Texas. It was a two for one.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Pretty sure with Texas. It was a two for one.

Yes. But we couldn't even get that with P5 teams until Wisconsin next Saturday.

 

[roses04]

SI did an analysis of all the power 5 teams and ranked them, people can bitch about the President and AD not doing enough, and I would agree with some, however, the fact is WSU is near the bottom, and it's a hard sell. Sure you can argue TV ratings and viewing, but WSU is underfunded, and thanks to the sharing of profits with the Pac 12 WSU has outperformed other schools that feel they as subsidizing WSU . You can argue the rankings but in the end we are near the bottom in attendance and academic ratings.

SI rankings of power 5

 

[425cougfan]

Best analogy, IMO, is Nevada. Chronic underfunding, mediocre booster support, etc.

But missing beer in the stadium.

That makes sense on many levels. I didn't go with it since Reno is about a Spokane-sized place, whereas Laramie is remote as hell and only has 32,000 residents (despite UW being the flagship in the state), while Utah State is a decent comp in Logan. It's a bit smaller than somewhere like Yakima or Wenatchee, and about as far from SLC as WSU is from Spokane. This is all just back of the napkin stuff. Your points about funding and booster support are a big part of it that will play out over time, and we know how WSU does in those regards.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

SI did an analysis of all the power 5 teams and ranked them, people can bitch about the President and AD not doing enough, and I would agree with some, however, the fact is WSU is near the bottom, and it's a hard sell. Sure you can argue TV ratings and viewing, but WSU is underfunded, and thanks to the sharing of profits with the Pac 12 WSU has outperformed other schools that feel they as subsidizing WSU . You can argue the rankings but in the end we are near the bottom in attendance and academic ratings.

SI rankings of power 5

Thanks for the link. That type of analysis is why WSU is struggling in the court of (conference) public opinion. It's frustrating that they act like rankings in academics and "all sports" are meaningful when the reality is that this discussion is about football and basketball only...and really only football and if you take that out of the mix, we jump enough to be in the mix, even with our crappy fan attendance. Of course, if our fans actually went to games instead of making excuses, we'd move up a few spots in the list too. I know that it's a nationwide problem (Duke had almost 9,000 empty seats last night) but we make our own bed on part of this.

 

[CougPatrol]

We won't be marquee once things normalize. Do you think all of sudden WSU fans who for decades have done jack squat to support athletics are going to open their wallets to fill the $30 million hole the budget? And even if WSU becomes "marquee", you're talking about embracing irrelevant status.

That's exactly right. Personally, I'm OK with the MWC for WSU, but I don't have illusions of us being a marquee program in that league. As you said, once things normalize, why would a recruit from California, Nevada, Arizona, or UT choose WSU Pullman over San Diego, Fresno, San Jose, UNLV, Colorado State, or Boise State? We won't have more fans. We won't have more NIL money. We aren't a geographically convenient. We ARE located in one of the coldest regions in the league outside of Wyoming, Colorado State, and Boise, although Boise is much sunnier.

I'm going to enjoy this season and soak up as much nostalgia as I can, but the era of WSU being the little engine that could in the Power College Athletics league is over. We are, at best, going to be on par with Utah State, Wyoming, and Fresno State.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

That's exactly right. Personally, I'm OK with the MWC for WSU, but I don't have illusions of us being a marquee program in that league. As you said, once things normalize, why would a recruit from California, Nevada, Arizona, or UT choose WSU Pullman over San Diego, Fresno, San Jose, UNLV, Colorado State, or Boise State? We won't have more fans. We won't have more NIL money. We aren't a geographically convenient. We ARE located in one of the coldest regions in the league outside of Wyoming, Colorado State, and Boise, although Boise is much sunnier.

I'm going to enjoy this season and soak up as much nostalgia as I can, but the era of WSU being the little engine that could in the Power College Athletics league is over. We are, at best, going to be on par with Utah State, Wyoming, and Fresno State.

We've had Power 5 status but in every meaningful way, we've almost always been on the outside looking in. I am curious to see if the Mountain West with OSU and WSU can get a couple slightly better bowl games lined up. I'm not holding my breath on anything better than the Sun Bowl. Doh!

 

[mikalalas]

That's exactly right. Personally, I'm OK with the MWC for WSU, but I don't have illusions of us being a marquee program in that league. As you said, once things normalize, why would a recruit from California, Nevada, Arizona, or UT choose WSU Pullman over San Diego, Fresno, San Jose, UNLV, Colorado State, or Boise State? We won't have more fans. We won't have more NIL money. We aren't a geographically convenient. We ARE located in one of the coldest regions in the league outside of Wyoming, Colorado State, and Boise, although Boise is much sunnier.

I'm going to enjoy this season and soak up as much nostalgia as I can, but the era of WSU being the little engine that could in the Power College Athletics league is over. We are, at best, going to be on par with Utah State, Wyoming, and Fresno State.

A possible reason why is:

Suppose BSU still had everything it has except say it BSU was in a Pullman, etc.

Recruits would still choose BSU. Why? Because it's freaking BSU, that regularly goes to NY6 bowls, and beats Oklahoma's, etc.

Those that sell BSU focus, sell the good.

Those that sell WSU, will also need to SUCCESSFULLY SELL the good.

It's FREAKING WSU. A former SUCCESSFUL P5, that had 7,8 SEVEN, EIGHT, STRAIGHT BOWL GAMES.

If WSU goes 9-3, 10-2, 11-1, CFP or NY6, pulls a TCU, this season, and then goes 10-2, 11-1, 12-0, CFP, NY6, next season, with 9,10 Straight bowl seasons, that's something that can be SUCCESSFULLY SOLD to recruits.

And then if that happens, and then after that, then WSU could put up more 9-3,10-2, 11-1,12-0 seasons, for 2,3,4 more of those kind of seasons, after the first 2 of those kind of seasons, for 4,5,6 total straight kind of seasons, and 13,14,15 straight bowl game seasons.

And that could be built, SOLD to recruits SUCCESSFULLY.

And that's why this season, and next season are, is CRITICAL.

If WSU wins 9,10,11 games, CFP, NY6 this season, next season. WSU can build around that, if Dickert stays, or if WSU gets a good replacement HC.

If WSU only wins 5,6,7 games, then yeah, yes, WSU would have a harder time selling recruits.

Not saying this will, would happen, but it's possible.

At worst WSU becomes a top 3,4,5,6 middling program. At best WSU is top 3.

Only BSU, SDSU, Oregon St, Fresno St, in football are either equal or better then WSU.

The rest of MWC is worse then WSU.

And WSU wouldn't have to play ALL of BSU, SDSU, Oregon St, Fresno St, EVERY season.

Which means WSU will probably have 2,3 tough games, that they would lose 1,2,3 out of those tough games.

And WSU would have 2,3 midrange games, that they would win 1,2,3 out of those games.

The rest would be easy wins.

At worst, 6,7,8 wins, bad bowl game

In bad years, WSU should win 7,8,9 wins, and a average bowl game.

In Average years, WSU should win 8,9,10 games, and a good bowl game.

In good years, 9,10,11 wins, NY6 bowl game.

In best year, 10,11,12,13 wins, CFP.

So WSU has a chance to be a big fish in MWC.

But it all depends what WSU does in this season, next season.

So as long as WSU does well this season, next season, then WSU will be fine, and will build a BSU, SDSU, OSU, Fresno St level program in the MWC, and might be added to a P5 later.

But if WSU only wins 5,6,7 games, then you would be right that WSU would only become a middling MWC at best.

Dickert has the chance to be the HC that saves WSU