Tracy Claeys.
- Thread starter kougkurt
- Start date
Why do we care about what the Seattle media says? They’ll always crap on WSU for some reason. Even if there is a kind of firestorm, in a week no one will remember.
She denied being so drunk she couldn’t consent, didn’t understand what was happening, etc.
She consented to bring double teamed by the first two guys, even the school’s student conduct board made that finding.
Well, he earned the name ChickenSchulz for a reason.
In other news, Leach doesn’t have the authority to bind WSU to a contract. Which means the administration is on board with the hire, or it wouldn’t have been made.
What burden of proof is being applied? Beyond reasonable doubt? Clear and convincing evidence? More probable than not?
The university’s student conduct board used more probable than not (basically meaning 50.0001 percent sure). But to get there, the board believed everything the girl said, ignoring inconsistencies in her story, and did not believe anything the players said, except where it was convenient to do so.
I’m programmed to believe that if a woman says stop, you stop. She would never have to ask me twice. I also don’t believe that “she got what she deserved.” That’s an inhuman assumption.
With that said, i don’t believe her account of the story just because she said it. I process all scenarios before passing judgment, and that includes the story told by the accused young men. I think that’s what Claeys did, which is why I’m defending him. Women lie too.
I think what happened was despicable. I think the men should have been expelled, AND I think the woman should have been expelled. She agreed to sleeping with multiple men. There’s video of her enjoying it. Then more men came into the room. How did they get in? Wouldn’t she have gotten creeped out at that point and called it off? Did they force her? Why didn’t the police find evidence of that violence.
There are many, many plausible assumptions to be made here, and I feel badly for her. Regarding one of your questions, yes, she should have assumed they were douchebags simply because they were willing to have sex with her at the same time. Disgusting. That’s one of my criteria for being a douchebag, and she not only disregarded it, she was willing to say game on. That was included in the report. She consented to sex with several of them initially. Sorry, but that is a data point here, and no, it doesn’t mean she didn’t have a right to say no. Douchebags willing to have group sex are probably less likely to respect boundaries. Maybe that’s not true, but it’s how I feel about it. She still should be able to change her mind, but she got herself into a jackpot. It’s terrible.
I just don’t see why Claeys career should be over because of how he responded.
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She wasn’t coerced into the room. Not even close. Maybe coerced into staying their after she had willingly had sex with the first two guys.
Not into the room but after the door closed behind her and guys apparently doing what they could to keep her in the room.
I thought my memory was right - he WAS somehow connected to that fiasco. I did a really quick google search and didn't find anything, so I thought maybe I was mistaken.
I suppose at this point he's ours, blemishes and all, so whatever sex scandal thing was going on at UM hopefully stays there.
She never called the cops, never called a friend to help her, never called her parents, didn’t claw anyone’s eyes out. Obviously those are the easy things to point to.
Whether she wanted them to stop and said so depends on whose story convinced you the most. There were many inconsistencies in her story. The university could look past those, largely because it was applying a low burden of proof and because the university acts as prosecutor, judge and jury in student conduct cases.
The police and prosecutors can’t look past inconsistencies in her story or conflicting evidence.
Ok, it is past time for you to STFU on this topic. "She never called the cops". WTF is that? Like she had her cell in her hand while getting trained and the guys would have stood there and let her make that call? Just STOP posting on this thread.
And that goes for everyone. STOP. Go show your posts to your wife and daughter and get their opinions.
I’ve read the police and university reports. She had her phone.
I suggest you read the reports too. If you choose not to, you should kindly STFU.
I discussed this case with my wife at length after it happened, and at first she said those guys were sick and needed to be punished. After more information came out and the victim's story became unreliable and it was KNOWN that she consented to be there, she said "well, no one deserves to be raped obviously, but how can someone trust her story now that she's lied."
You seem to be operating under the premise that "well yeah, she's a liar but that doesn't meant she wasn't raped." Well, when the thing you lied about was getting raped, yeah it kinda does, at least when it comes to the burden of proof in a legal setting.
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I’m raising 2 boys. I’ll show it to them. They like knowing that I consider all points of view, including the reality that a lot of women lie.
Good lord. This was a stellar hire. He’s a slam dunk and a very good defensive coach. We scored big time.
Another Gophers fan here.
My fellow fan Everybody Knows My Name summed Coach Claeys and termination from Minnesota pretty well. And in fact, our fanbase split (and debated ad nauseum) very similar to the discussion of Coach's hiring to Wazzu here. Our non-Rivals fansite is Gopherhole and the hiring announcement started with a couple of congrats and then devolved right back to where we were a year ago...again a mirror of what's being written here.
The situation at Minnesota was very complex even without the incident. We'd lost Coach Kill mid-year in the previous season with Coach Claeys being named the HC. I believe Claeys was given a two-year contract at the end of the season...which is the equivalent of a probationary contract at best. Then we had an AD go down in flames due to sexual harrassment of women on his staff and a reporter no less. This led to a new AD who in the end wanted his own guy (no surprise a new AD would want his own person at the helm of the top revenue sport). Then throw in the incident...mixed with terrible information management by the University President...upside-down due process under the University's sexual misconduct procedures...and yes a lack of understanding by Coach Claeys of exactly what was happening with his players...with a potential player boycott to boot...and you have a bona fide mess.
Whether Wazzu fans can get by all this I don't know. Like I said, we're still debating it ourselves.
Now for the good news.
When the team left for the bowl game Gopher fans had every expectation that we were going to be killed by the Cougars. This was the prognosticators call too. I'd expect very few Cougars thought we'd be competitive past the first quarter. As we all saw that win was not because of any great offensive feat by Minnesota...it was because our defense did not allow the Cougars to ever get into any offensive groove. THAT is what Coach Claeys did for us...and is now going to do for your team.
I don't know your program's history well enough to know if you're known for great defense or not. I think the answer there is no...which is the same for Minnesota for the past 30 years before Coaches Kill and Claeys. That is going to change for Wazzu with this hire. Bank on it.
Anyway, the majority of UM fans have been waiting to see where Coach Claeys landed. I know we're pleased he's not in the Big 10 and guess most are now instant Wazzu fans. With Coach Leach at the helm to deal with any young men acting stupidly...Coach Claeys will be there to do what he does best...assess the weaknesses of the opponent week to week and field a team that exploits it.
Time will tell but check back in 2 years to where your defense was this year where it is then. You will be very pleased.
Good luck in 2018.
My fellow fan Everybody Knows My Name summed Coach Claeys and termination from Minnesota pretty well. And in fact, our fanbase split (and debated ad nauseum) very similar to the discussion of Coach's hiring to Wazzu here. Our non-Rivals fansite is Gopherhole and the hiring announcement started with a couple of congrats and then devolved right back to where we were a year ago...again a mirror of what's being written here.
The situation at Minnesota was very complex even without the incident. We'd lost Coach Kill mid-year in the previous season with Coach Claeys being named the HC. I believe Claeys was given a two-year contract at the end of the season...which is the equivalent of a probationary contract at best. Then we had an AD go down in flames due to sexual harrassment of women on his staff and a reporter no less. This led to a new AD who in the end wanted his own guy (no surprise a new AD would want his own person at the helm of the top revenue sport). Then throw in the incident...mixed with terrible information management by the University President...upside-down due process under the University's sexual misconduct procedures...and yes a lack of understanding by Coach Claeys of exactly what was happening with his players...with a potential player boycott to boot...and you have a bona fide mess.
Whether Wazzu fans can get by all this I don't know. Like I said, we're still debating it ourselves.
Now for the good news.
When the team left for the bowl game Gopher fans had every expectation that we were going to be killed by the Cougars. This was the prognosticators call too. I'd expect very few Cougars thought we'd be competitive past the first quarter. As we all saw that win was not because of any great offensive feat by Minnesota...it was because our defense did not allow the Cougars to ever get into any offensive groove. THAT is what Coach Claeys did for us...and is now going to do for your team.
I don't know your program's history well enough to know if you're known for great defense or not. I think the answer there is no...which is the same for Minnesota for the past 30 years before Coaches Kill and Claeys. That is going to change for Wazzu with this hire. Bank on it.
Anyway, the majority of UM fans have been waiting to see where Coach Claeys landed. I know we're pleased he's not in the Big 10 and guess most are now instant Wazzu fans. With Coach Leach at the helm to deal with any young men acting stupidly...Coach Claeys will be there to do what he does best...assess the weaknesses of the opponent week to week and field a team that exploits it.
Time will tell but check back in 2 years to where your defense was this year where it is then. You will be very pleased.
Good luck in 2018.
Thanks. You add some much needed perspective. It was a situation with no good answers. He stuck up for his players. Maybe he should not have the way he did, as his information was not complete. That was both his fault and the administration's for not keeping him in the loop.
There have been times that WSU had great defenses under Mike Price. Mike Zimmer, the head coach of the Minnesota Vikings, was Price's first DC. Bill Doba, who later became the head coach, was his second.
Pair a Very Good DC with Mike Leach and you will win a lot of games. Hope you stick around. Thanks again.
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I read the full report and have done the same processing as well. We simply land in very different places partly around consent and who we found credible.
Claeys appeared ignorant of the situation and made a mistake. Troubling but I don't have an issue with him being our DC.
Not only that, but we now have stability in the program. Fortunately for WSU, even with continued success, our coaches will most likely be here for a long time. Too much baggage for a top tier program to sweep them up. This was a home run hire for our program.
Kids that raped the girl thought the same thing.
He's a terrible hire and it isn't because of his football knowledge. He's a piss poor leader and has zero backbone. Morals are questionable at best.
Glad to hear the perspective. As far as Claeys goes with regards to "the incident", I don't think any of us should focus on that or worry about that in judging him. He was in a no-win situation before the bowl game and trying to dissect it in hind-sight is unfair and not productive in any fashion. I'm excited with the hire and much like Phelps seeming to be a technical upgrade over Coach Joe, it wouldn't surprise me if Claeys ends up making our defense better. Grinch did good things for WSU but he was never able to develop a scheme or find a way to coach the players on how to deal with a mobile QB. We routinely got smoked by teams that had a QB who could improvise with their feet in the past few years. We nearly lost to ASU last year because of it and CU beat us in Boulder last year because their QB got just enough yardage to keep drives alive. Michigan State's QB did the same thing in the Holiday Bowl this year and Khalil Tate wrecked us in the Arizona game. A defensive coordinator that can keep the other parts of our defense solid but shore up our play against mobile QB's will be a guy that can help us win an extra game or two per year.
How do you know that his morals are questionable? Was that the issue or was it that he made the mistake of trying to express his thoughts in a 140 character tweet on a subject that required more nuance than that? The comments from the Minnesota poster make it clear that they agree with you that he shouldn't be a guy who leads a football program, but that he was the perfect man for the DC position and excelled there.
Claeys appears to be a great example of the Peter Principle in terms of leadership. Good for leading a defense, not so good with dealing with all of the issues that a head coach has to face. I'd agree that he shouldn't be a candidate if Leach decides to move on.
No charges were filed. I believe the involved parties played this year. Was it rape? Were you there? Your opinion here is poorly thought out and is basically sausage making, spare us.
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I guess I'm OK with Claeys, for now. But I'm watching. To forward the rape culture question and fault and what is rape and all that crap...
Rape is rape. When a woman says no, it means the deed is done. If a dude is literally 1 second from finishing and a girl says "no" or "stop", he needs to go take a cold shower. Right hand jack is in your future. Depending on the situation, I'd be a pretty ticked dude but hey... it is what it is.
But this discussion is heading towards responsibility. Who's responsible in this specific situation. Who is to be believed. Certainly the guys bear a massive portion of responsibility. Just at face value, we are trying to split a hair regarding a situation that is not healthy for either man or woman to be involved in. So we all need to recognize that the woman intentionally, consensually and willingly put herself in that situation of multiple men, at a MASSIVE party. She's just as disgusting as the men, in my opinion. Even if it encounter went as she wanted it.
But here's my thing about the specific "incident". that really throws a wrench in it for me, regarding how much responsibility the girl should bear and her believability. Either in her report or her initial conversations (don't remember), the girl said she wasn't sure if she was raped or not... First of all, lets clarify that she wasn't "plastered". In the video taken during the "incident", all reports say she was coherent and in good mental state. Even "enjoying" the encounter (with multiple guys AND a camera that she knew was being used to record the event) at the time. So she wasn't passed out, no one was taking advantage of her at that time. She may have had a drink or two but not DRUNK, drunk. So the "not sure" part is not due to her being too drunk. In this EXTREME situation (which I would agree probably happens more than I want to know... our world is so... sick) does the woman bear ANY fault in putting herself in such a situation where she doesn't even know who is involved? And THEN... if she knew she was going to be involved is such a... crazy event, even a few drinks probably weren't a good choice. Is she responsible for any of that? I don't know. But at some point, as our society allows acceptable behavior to be pushed and pushed, I do start to question personal responsibility.
Aside from the rape culture, our society works very hard at not taking responsibility for our own actions. The law-suits that make all the headlines (McD's hot coffee as an example) are just insane. And to use another example... if a woman wears a short skirt and acts provocatively, it doesn't mean she wants it, deserves to be raped or anything like that. But there has to be a line somewhere regarding a woman taking some responsibility, as much as the men. I think this particular situation is so extreme, that it is very, very close to that line. She placed herself into a situation that she did not control, that made it hard for her to know whom she was having sex with... And that is SOLELY the men's fault? Hard questions...
Rape is rape. When a woman says no, it means the deed is done. If a dude is literally 1 second from finishing and a girl says "no" or "stop", he needs to go take a cold shower. Right hand jack is in your future. Depending on the situation, I'd be a pretty ticked dude but hey... it is what it is.
But this discussion is heading towards responsibility. Who's responsible in this specific situation. Who is to be believed. Certainly the guys bear a massive portion of responsibility. Just at face value, we are trying to split a hair regarding a situation that is not healthy for either man or woman to be involved in. So we all need to recognize that the woman intentionally, consensually and willingly put herself in that situation of multiple men, at a MASSIVE party. She's just as disgusting as the men, in my opinion. Even if it encounter went as she wanted it.
But here's my thing about the specific "incident". that really throws a wrench in it for me, regarding how much responsibility the girl should bear and her believability. Either in her report or her initial conversations (don't remember), the girl said she wasn't sure if she was raped or not... First of all, lets clarify that she wasn't "plastered". In the video taken during the "incident", all reports say she was coherent and in good mental state. Even "enjoying" the encounter (with multiple guys AND a camera that she knew was being used to record the event) at the time. So she wasn't passed out, no one was taking advantage of her at that time. She may have had a drink or two but not DRUNK, drunk. So the "not sure" part is not due to her being too drunk. In this EXTREME situation (which I would agree probably happens more than I want to know... our world is so... sick) does the woman bear ANY fault in putting herself in such a situation where she doesn't even know who is involved? And THEN... if she knew she was going to be involved is such a... crazy event, even a few drinks probably weren't a good choice. Is she responsible for any of that? I don't know. But at some point, as our society allows acceptable behavior to be pushed and pushed, I do start to question personal responsibility.
Aside from the rape culture, our society works very hard at not taking responsibility for our own actions. The law-suits that make all the headlines (McD's hot coffee as an example) are just insane. And to use another example... if a woman wears a short skirt and acts provocatively, it doesn't mean she wants it, deserves to be raped or anything like that. But there has to be a line somewhere regarding a woman taking some responsibility, as much as the men. I think this particular situation is so extreme, that it is very, very close to that line. She placed herself into a situation that she did not control, that made it hard for her to know whom she was having sex with... And that is SOLELY the men's fault? Hard questions...
It's been a while since I read the report (cover to cover, twice). But I recall that the girl said when she asked for her clothes, they had been taken away. I don't think she had access to her phone during the incident, even if she had brought it with her.
That is a great synopsis for whether there should have been a rape charge or not. Putting my Attorney hat on , maybe you should have filed that as a Friend of the Court brief.
However really at a loss on how all of that pertains to Clareys per se. The legal system did not charge these guys with a crime, which actually is a pretty low standard ( as you have seen with some of your recent off the field incidents). The University for a period of time readmitted the players back to the University with good standing. That is the part of the process that seemed to have broken down and what you had issue with in your post. Is the Football coach now responsible to conduct his own independent investigation ?
I don't know enough about their "student conduct board review" process to really say much about it. I will say, I don't like what our student conduct board was (is?) structured like. I do not believe the student athletes should be treated any differently than any other student.
So for a coach to conduct his own investigation... if it's internal? Sure. Ask the players some questions, see if you like what you hear, etc. etc. But to go outside whatever sport? Nope. A football coach can't go and ask a common student a bunch of questions about a possible crime. Nor do I think he should be able to hire that out. So the coach would only get one side of the story. Not really an investigation. But a coach can control his own domain... his team, his sport.
But is anyone saying a coach should have that ability?
To me, as far as Claeys is concerned, if I had my wish, I'd like to know why Claeys made that tweet and why he thought in such a crazy situation, he thought he should make a public proclamation of support for the players. Everything else was completely out of his control.
So what more was he supposed to do here?
I also would have refrained from using social media to state my support of the team’s decision. This was too complex and important an issue to address in a 140-character message. It generated more questions than it answered and likely created more problems than it solved.
If that’s proof of “weak leadership” as outlined in the recent Dorsey & Whitney report, then I’m guilty and accept responsibility.
If there's any person on this entire message board that in the entire scope of their life hasn't done something utterly stupid and without explanation, then let me have your address so I can come over and rub your belly for eternal salvation.
Dude f'd up. He owned up. He paid a price with his multi-million dollar per year job. But this is deadhorsewatch.com so let's keep flogging that equine.
Just pointing out that "culture" is not going to part of Claeys's job duties. I think the head coach has "culture" covered.
I'm with you. I think because of the length of my posts, it's being construed that I'm against him and his hire. Like I said... I'm OK with the Claeys hire. I'm just watching.
Everything else I've posted is more of a rant regarding the crazy, stupid situation, overall. Several posts started veering into responsibility of the girl, believability, etc. As you've put it, I'm just contributing to the Equine Abuse problem around here.
A very difficult situation with many shades of grey. it is readily evident that the man is not a lawyer,social worker or police investigator. The situation was contradictory and crazy, and i ,for one,do not know what he was thinking when he made his tweet.Many people react viscerally to a loaded explosive situation, with out first considering their initial reaction and it s possible consequences.The man deserves another chance to resume his chosen career. The cougs offered him a job and he took them up on it.One hopes for the best possible results.
Seattle media because they can't find time to address their own back yard
Tom Cable - domestic violence (wife beater)
Warren Moon - domestic violence and new sexual harrasment charges
Tom Porras - accused pedophile once he got into coaching
Venoy Overton - pimp, held out of Pac 12 tourney by Romar
Reese Lindquist (former UW player and teacher's union leader) - pedophile, caught in act
Gary Little - (Local Judge, UW Law school) - pedophile, stories about him spike by Seattle Times. (Friend of Bill Gates family) Seattle P-I publishes and he commits suicide
Jeramy Stephens - sued for rape, drove vehicle into nursing home. Misses 1st quarter against Idaho
Hope Solo - domestic violence against family members.
Ed Murray - UW past employee and stadium bill sponsor - pedophile, story initially spiked by Seattle Times
Ted Bundy - most famous UW graduate of the 20th century
