Tracy Claeys.

[BiggsCoug]

Ah man facts can get in the way of drama.

Maybe P.J. Fleck should be "drummed out of football" for playing the 5 players this season.

Really love how even though people do not even know the specific facts of situation , but that does not stop them from making over the top actuations.

Do you know the specifics of the situation? Cause I read it page by page. It was terrible what those kids did. They are predators.

Im sure you'd be more then ok with substituting your wife or mother or girlfriend or daughter or even yourself into that situation. Right?

I can't speak for Fleck. I speak for me. If I were hired as the head coach at UM I'd have kicked them off the team 1 minute later. Rapists aren't going to play for me. End of f*cking story. If the kids want to boycott, let them. I'll find more guys to take their spots.

 

[BiggsCoug]

No. That is Coach Leach's problem. He doesn't run his football program based on what the Seattle media says.

Sherlock, what if it isn't up to him? What if the president calls him into his office and says "we're not taking this heat any more. Fire him."

What if the president doesn't want to deal with negative media in his most important recruiting ground for his student body???

 

[Loyal Coug]

Do you know the specifics of the situation? Cause I read it page by page. It was terrible what those kids did. They are predators.

Im sure you'd be more then ok with substituting your wife or mother or girlfriend or daughter or even yourself into that situation. Right?

I can't speak for Fleck. I speak for me. If I were hired as the head coach at UM I'd have kicked them off the team 1 minute later. Rapists aren't going to play for me. End of f*cking story. If the kids want to boycott, let them. I'll find more guys to take their spots.

Biggs - instead of making us all search the internet please link the reports, etc. that you are referring to.

In theory I am completely in your camp on this. However I do not recall all the facts. It is my understanding that the 5 original players were suspended, the police chose not to press charges (bad on them), and the 5 were reinstated. Those 5 and the additional 5 (apparently present but not participants?) were then susended by the school later. I believe that the 5 participants were expelled, the additional 5 let back in this year.

Now, I would bet $50 that CML would have kicked the original 5 off the team immediately, whether it was a consensual situation or not. It is abuse either way.

Edit - and if any of you Minnesota lurkers are out there, please chime in on this subject.

 

[Observer11]

Sherlock, what if it isn't up to him? What if the president calls him into his office and says "we're not taking this heat any more. Fire him."

What if the president doesn't want to deal with negative media in his most important recruiting ground for his student body???

Well paid administrators and highly compensated head coaches earn their money by working through complex solutions to complex problems, identifying potential issues and mitigating those things they may not have foreseen.

The university president would also be signing off on a contract this size.

Kudos on the ongoing name-calling though. It really helps augment your position.

 

[Tx64]

Do you know the specifics of the situation? Cause I read it page by page. It was terrible what those kids did. They are predators.

Im sure you'd be more then ok with substituting your wife or mother or girlfriend or daughter or even yourself into that situation. Right?

I can't speak for Fleck. I speak for me. If I were hired as the head coach at UM I'd have kicked them off the team 1 minute later. Rapists aren't going to play for me. End of f*cking story. If the kids want to boycott, let them. I'll find more guys to take their spots.

Leach has made it clear how he stands on his players taking actions against women. Maybe he has more information on the matter than you. He would not hire a coach that would not abide by his three rules.

 

[PINGDUDE4]

Do you know the specifics of the situation? Cause I read it page by page. It was terrible what those kids did. They are predators.

Im sure you'd be more then ok with substituting your wife or mother or girlfriend or daughter or even yourself into that situation. Right?

I can't speak for Fleck. I speak for me. If I were hired as the head coach at UM I'd have kicked them off the team 1 minute later. Rapists aren't going to play for me. End of f*cking story. If the kids want to boycott, let them. I'll find more guys to take their spots.

When I say facts , I am not referring to the abuse itself which was terrible, what I was referring to how Claeys tried to navigate the deal , while clearly getting bad back and forth decisions from the University.

Not fine with any of it , but players are human and deserve due process. The University obviously over shot the deal as clearly 5 of the 10 players that they suspended were reinstated and are now in good standing with the University and played this season.

Claeys never condoned the player's actions, his error was to use the University's suspension system as his guide for whether the players were on the team or not. And when they went back and forth it made him look bad.

If the media does decide to go after this deal , I hope they at least take the time to understand the facts.

I guess finally Claeys was new a HC during this deal and was not equipped to handle it. He will not be making those type decisions at WSU.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Biggs - instead of making us all search the internet please link the reports, etc. that you are referring to.

In theory I am completely in your camp on this. However I do not recall all the facts. It is my understanding that the 5 original players were suspended, the police chose not to press charges (bad on them), and the 5 were reinstated. Those 5 and the additional 5 (apparently present but not participants?) were then susended by the school later. I believe that the 5 participants were expelled, the additional 5 let back in this year.

Now, I would bet $50 that CML would have kicked the original 5 off the team immediately, whether it was a consensual situation or not. It is abuse either way.

Edit - and if any of you Minnesota lurkers are out there, please chime in on this subject.

Google it bro.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Well paid administrators and highly compensated head coaches earn their money by working through complex solutions to complex problems, identifying potential issues and mitigating those things they may not have foreseen.

The university president would also be signing off on a contract this size.

Kudos on the ongoing name-calling though. It really helps augment your position.

I didn’t realize you were so thin skinned that Sherlock is now name calling. Let’s just stick with you being a turd.

People get jobs all the time without people further up the ladder being in the know. See UT football coach search this year....

 

[BiggsCoug]

Leach has made it clear how he stands on his players taking actions against women. Maybe he has more information on the matter than you. He would not hire a coach that would not abide by his three rules.

It wasn’t the coaches actions. Unless he interviewed the girl that was assaulted how would he have more into?

He hired a coach that brought kids to campus that thought that behavior was ok. Then he didn’t dismiss them. That might not be enough for some of you but it is for me.

 

[CougPatrol]

I agree with Biggs reaction to the incident. I think it was an awful, shameful situation for everyone involved, including the victim, who wasn't a victim.

In defense of Claeys, it sounded to me like his first reaction to the incident was to defend the players (teammates who were not involved) reaction to the incident. Then, when the details emerged (including video), it was clear that the woman was a willing participant, so he sided with the accused players. A slippery slope for sure, but it was conclusively determined by text messages and video evidence that the female was a willing participant.

Now, again, I think everyone involved in the incident should have been expelled by the University; including the woman and especially the idiots who recorded the encounter, but I do understand Claeys reaction. The word rape was wrongly used. Despicable, yes. Rape, no.

This op-ed piece by the NY Post talks about it from the male perspective.

https://nypost.com/2017/01/01/minnesota-football-rape-case-emblematic-of-campus-witch-hunt-culture/

 

[BiggsCoug]

When I say facts , I am not referring to the abuse itself which was terrible, what I was referring to how Claeys tried to navigate the deal , while clearly getting bad back and forth decisions from the University.

Not fine with any of it , but players are human and deserve due process. The University obviously over shot the deal as clearly 5 of the 10 players that they suspended were reinstated and are now in good standing with the University and played this season.

Claeys never condoned the player's actions, his error was to use the University's suspension system as his guide for whether the players were on the team or not. And when they went back and forth it made him look bad.

If the media does decide to go after this deal , I hope they at least take the time to understand the facts.

I guess finally Claeys was new a HC during this deal and was not equipped to handle it. He will not be making those type decisions at WSU.

Due process is more then fair. Did the victim get fair treatment too?

Media and facts... I feel like it might not work out.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I agree with Biggs reaction to the incident. I think it was an awful, shameful situation for everyone involved, including the victim, who wasn't a victim.

In defense of Claeys, it sounded to me like his first reaction to the incident was to defend the players (teammates who were not involved) reaction to the incident. Then, when the details emerged (including video), it was clear that the woman was a willing participant, so he sided with the accused players. A slippery slope for sure, but it was conclusively determined by text messages and video evidence that the female was a willing participant.

Now, again, I think everyone involved in the incident should have been expelled by the University; including the woman and especially the idiots who recorded the encounter, but I do understand Claeys reaction. The word rape was wrongly used. Despicable, yes. Rape, no.

This op-ed piece by the NY Post talks about it from the male perspective.

https://nypost.com/2017/01/01/minnesota-football-rape-case-emblematic-of-campus-witch-hunt-culture/

You really think this wasn’t rape? Really?

 

[Loyal Coug]

Google it bro.

Hey don't bring stuff up without documenting it. You are as bad as the rest of these yahoos.

For everyone else - here is the info. I don't have time to read the report, will do so tonight. Based on the article, I question Claey's response to this matter. And to reply to a Biggs comment, I believe that at least some of the men raped her. or most.

https://www.twincities.com/2016/12/...-assault-allegation-football-players-defense/

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted5.pdf

 

[Tx64]

It wasn’t the coaches actions. Unless he interviewed the girl that was assaulted how would he have more into?

He hired a coach that brought kids to campus that thought that behavior was ok. Then he didn’t dismiss them. That might not be enough for some of you but it is for me.

You seem to disagree with whatever Leach wants to do. Example run more. I have repeatedly posted why he does not at this time. Your mind is made up. Leach can do no right.

When you get your head coaching job. Let me know. I am anguish to see how it works out for you.

I trust Leach. He has a track record that tells a reasonable person that he knows what he is doing. I back his hire and believe it will bring great success to WSU. What has really impressed me is with each hire he seems to find a way to improve his coaching staff. His recruiting has improved as well. When he gets the players to make it work I am sure he will start running the ball more. You will either say he is now listening to you or you will find something else to criticize. I am sorry you are not happier with your life.

 

[everybody knows my name]

Minnesota fan here - I'm happy to chime in.

First, about coach Claeys - I wanted him to get the full-time job when Jerry Kill retired, and I was glad when he did. What developed is that Claeys is an X/O guy, not a recruiter, which made him a better DC than head coach. Tactically, strategically, he's got a great football mind, but I don't think he relishes the recruiting side of things, he isn't adept at politics, and he isn't happy in the spotlight. Nevertheless, I was pleased with his first season as head coach, and I was looking forward to a future with Tracy Claeys as our head man.

About the sex assault scandal. I don't think that anyone would say coach Claeys fostered an atmosphere where sexual assault was tolerated, and he didn't fight to keep the accused players on the team. What he did - the notorious tweet in support of the team's threatened boycott - goes more to his lack of political aptitude than anything. The young men on the team failed to make a distinction between prosecution and school governance. They thought their teammates were entitled to more 'due process' than they were, and Claeys should have educated them about that. Instead, I think he was guilty of pandering and flattering them, and that was his big mistake.

The rest of the story is that we had a new AD who didn't like or respect Claeys and was looking for an excuse to fire Claeys so he could make his own sexy new hire, and Claeys foolishly put his Twitter in his mouth (or his foot in his Twitter?) and gave AD Mark Coyle a pretext to fire him.

Biggs is making a wild and unsupported leap when he accuses Claeys of supporting rape. Claeys, however, should have handled the situation differently, and as you have read, he admits that now.

 

[CougPatrol]

You really think this wasn’t rape? Really?

By my personal, moral definition, I think it was a grotesque manipulation of a young woman. I think the University should have booted everyone out of school who was involved.

With that said, I think the woman should have also been booted, and an equal example should have been made of her as it was of the players. She's a pig too. As the NY Post writer said, there's a difference between an orgy and a rape. I wouldn't be surprised at all if additional players showed up and joined in outside of who she agreed to. If so, THAT is rape, and those players should have been prosecuted.

The bottom line for me is the legal definition of rape. The woman agreed to have consensual (sober) sex with multiple players. That was confirmed in the text messaging and in the video that was reviewed. We're all hypersensitive to women's rights these days, as we should be, but there has to be accountability on both sides. If a woman willingly invites guys over for an arranged sex party, and details spill out publicly, she deserves as much negative PR as the guys. That's my only point here.

 

[Observer11]

I didn’t realize you were so thin skinned that Sherlock is now name calling. Let’s just stick with you being a turd.

People get jobs all the time without people further up the ladder being in the know. See UT football coach search this year....

Don't ever change. I enjoy the throwback to junior high days.

 

[froropmkr72]

Minnesota fan here - I'm happy to chime in.

First, about coach Claeys - I wanted him to get the full-time job when Jerry Kill retired, and I was glad when he did. What developed is that Claeys is an X/O guy, not a recruiter, which made him a better DC than head coach. Tactically, strategically, he's got a great football mind, but I don't think he relishes the recruiting side of things, he isn't adept at politics, and he isn't happy in the spotlight. Nevertheless, I was pleased with his first season as head coach, and I was looking forward to a future with Tracy Claeys as our head man.

About the sex assault scandal. I don't think that anyone would say coach Claeys fostered an atmosphere where sexual assault was tolerated, and he didn't fight to keep the accused players on the team. What he did - the notorious tweet in support of the team's threatened boycott - goes more to his lack of political aptitude than anything. The young men on the team failed to make a distinction between prosecution and school governance. They thought their teammates were entitled to more 'due process' than they were, and Claeys should have educated them about that. Instead, I think he was guilty of pandering and flattering them, and that was his big mistake.

The rest of the story is that we had a new AD who didn't like or respect Claeys and was looking for an excuse to fire Claeys so he could make his own sexy new hire, and Claeys foolishly put his Twitter in his mouth (or his foot in his Twitter?) and gave AD Mark Coyle a pretext to fire him.

Biggs is making a wild and unsupported leap when he accuses Claeys of supporting rape. Claeys, however, should have handled the situation differently, and as you have read, he admits that now.

The matter was turned over to county prosecutors who declined prosecution....correct? If you follow the correct channels and then let the process play out....what more can you do? Claeys can't prosecute the players himself, but he could of kept his mouth shut in regards to an ongoing investigation. If this had happened to Mike Price after his first year....he would of been looking for another job as an assistant somewhere else.

 

[Cougatron]

Google is your friend.

Just because something wasn’t charged doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

This was a nightmare for this poor girl. It was a life course changing event. Those boys should’ve been run off campus. Let the lawyers sue.

Innocent until proven guilty.

1. The kids were never charged.

2. It wasn't rape it was an Orgy.
"Part of the sexual encounter was taped, and police who reviewed it described the alleged victim as “lucid, alert, somewhat playful and fully conscious,” adding that she appeared a consenting participant. The Hennepin County Attorney’s office didn’t press charges, citing insufficient evidence."

The poor girl was on tape getting double and triple teamed and appeared a consenting participant.

"
It notes that the alleged victim told witnesses she thought she may have been raped, “but I am not really sure,” and that she initially viewed the sexual encounter as “an in-between situation and that she would feel bad for the men if she told the police.”

Her account also had numerous inconsistencies — which the university attributed to “a very traumatic experience, rather than to a lack of care or truthfulness.”"

Here's a link.

 

[froropmkr72]

Innocent until proven guilty.

1. The kids were never charged.

2. It wasn't rape it was an Orgy.
"Part of the sexual encounter was taped, and police who reviewed it described the alleged victim as “lucid, alert, somewhat playful and fully conscious,” adding that she appeared a consenting participant. The Hennepin County Attorney’s office didn’t press charges, citing insufficient evidence."

The poor girl was on tape getting double and triple teamed and appeared a consenting participant.

"
It notes that the alleged victim told witnesses she thought she may have been raped, “but I am not really sure,” and that she initially viewed the sexual encounter as “an in-between situation and that she would feel bad for the men if she told the police.”

Her account also had numerous inconsistencies — which the university attributed to “a very traumatic experience, rather than to a lack of care or truthfulness.”"

Here's a link.

Deplorable as it was....the HC acting beyond these facts....would of opened the door to further lawsuits from the players. How a certain small percentage of men could participate in something like this...we'll never understand. Anyone like the idea of 12 dripping condoms left on a dresser drawer??? I didn't think so.

 

[PINGDUDE4]

Deplorable as it was....the HC acting beyond these facts....would of opened the door to further lawsuits from the players. How a certain small percentage of men could participate in something like this...we'll never understand. Anyone like the idea of 12 dripping condoms left on a dresser drawer??? I didn't think so.

Exactly .

The confusion here as the Minny fan pointed out ( which really should be the clearest source of information) is getting focused on the act itself ( deplorable is a good word) and Claeys' response.

Not really sure what he was supposed to do in this case - conduct his own independent investigation apart from the University and Police ? He got whipsawed by their actions and then did what most new coaches do is express support for his players. Remember in this case the players were not only those accused , but mainly the rest of the team threatening to boycott the bowl game.

Fortunately for WSU, Leach has 17 years of Head Coaching experience and has firmer footing on how to deal with issues like this one.

 

[GrayOnGray]

Really love how even though people do not even know the specific facts of situation , but that does not stop them from making over the top actuations.

Agreed. From what we know, DC is probably his ceiling. Pardon the unfortunate pun, but I think his last stint was an example of the Peter principle. Again, from what is known, if I were him, I'd feel another shot as a DC at this level, in a town like Pullman, is a pretty sweet gig.

 

[SaveFerris]

You really think this wasn’t rape? Really?

I remember reading the report last year and came away believing it was rape basically across the board. For whatever reason when something like this happens a lot of the focus seems to center around the victim. After wading through the details of the assault in the report the thing I remember being struck by was the players response the next day in text messages, etc. At least some of the players essentially started to go into what I would call cover up mode. If it was an "orgy" then I wonder why there was concern from a number of the players that they were involved in a sexual assault? Seems like an odd response.

I haven't read the report in probably over a year so it would have been better for me to revisit the report. I just don't want to at the moment. Other than Sandusky it was about as disturbing as you can get. Unfortunately though it's not exactly a unique situation especially on our college campuses.

 

[CougPatrol]

I remember reading the report last year and came away believing it was rape basically across the board.

This is a highly sensitive issue, and I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but if a woman agrees to a sex or group sex encounter (confirmed via text messages and video) and she is sober, do the men deserve to be labeled rapists? Also, is she any less deplorable than they are?

 

[SaveFerris]

This is a highly sensitive issue, and I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but if a woman agrees to a sex or group sex encounter (confirmed via text messages and video) and she is sober, do the men deserve to be labeled rapists? Also, is she any less deplorable than they are?

Your comments tell me you either haven't read her account of what took place or have greatly discounted her account.

I also didn't mention that when the players boycotting actually read the report they ended their boycott without any of their demands being met.

 

[CougPatrol]

Your comments tell me you either haven't read her account of what took place or have greatly discounted her account.

I also didn't mention that when the players boycotting actually read the report they ended their boycott without any of their demands being met.

I did read her account, and I read the players account, and then I read the police account. It's not that I don't believe her account, I just don't believe all of it.

The video, from everything I read, showed that she was a willing participant. It almost assuredly spiraled out of control, and this is a harsh explanation of how I feel, but WTF did she think was going to happen? She's engaging willingly with MANY douchebag football players, and she expected what? The woman didn't "deserve" any of it, but she's at least partially accountable for getting herself into that situation. The freaking players are all pigs with no standards of decency. I have no pity for them either, BUT I don't think that rape is a fair label either. They all deserve blame.

It's a terrible to subject to discuss, which is why I think everyone is to blame, but I don't think that Claeys should be categorized as a reckless coach who created a rape culture.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I did read her account, and I read the players account, and then I read the police account. It's not that I don't believe her account, I just don't believe all of it.

The video, from everything I read, showed that she was a willing participant. It almost assuredly spiraled out of control, and this is a harsh explanation of how I feel, but WTF did she think was going to happen? She's engaging willingly with MANY douchebag football players, and she expected what? The woman didn't "deserve" any of it, but she's at least partially accountable for getting herself into that situation. The freaking players are all pigs with no standards of decency. I have no pity for them either, BUT I don't think that rape is a fair label either. They all deserve blame.

It's a terrible to subject to discuss, which is why I think everyone is to blame, but I don't think that Claeys should be categorized as a reckless coach who created a rape culture.

I'm going to feebly attempt to wrap this important but "run it's course" thread. Knowing that there will be 50 more posts.......

So it appears that the young woman initially, if perhaps reluctantly, consented to engaging in sex with the first two guys. It appears (video and testimony) that she was OK with having sex with some of the additional guys. At some point it seems clear that her consent ended, at which point anything after that became rape.

So pigs or not, some of the guys were not guilty of a crime. Others were. The cops/prosecutor decided that they couldn't draw the line. The University apparently found a line, and 5 players were expelled. All they could do at that point.

Claeys admittedly could have handled it better. But you can't legislate morality (for the non-rapist pigs). He has undoubtedly learned from this. WSU Football for sure has much better human beings on the team, so this would/will not happen here.

End of story?

 

[SaveFerris]

I did read her account, and I read the players account, and then I read the police account. It's not that I don't believe her account, I just don't believe all of it.

The video, from everything I read, showed that she was a willing participant. It almost assuredly spiraled out of control, and this is a harsh explanation of how I feel, but WTF did she think was going to happen? She's engaging willingly with MANY douchebag football players, and she expected what? The woman didn't "deserve" any of it, but she's at least partially accountable for getting herself into that situation. The freaking players are all pigs with no standards of decency. I have no pity for them either, BUT I don't think that rape is a fair label either. They all deserve blame.

It's a terrible to subject to discuss, which is why I think everyone is to blame, but I don't think that Claeys should be categorized as a reckless coach who created a rape culture.

The video from what I read was all of 90 seconds of something that probably lasted hours. There appears to have been some level of coercion just getting her in the room in the first place. You have to realize you are all over the place with your thoughts from her to the players involved. The bottom line is regardless of whether she didn't make the best decisions she doesn't deserve to be raped. A poor decision doesn't justify a crime.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Living in greater LA and having many entertainment industry customers, I can tell you that the current attitude is pretty much guilty until proven innocent, hang 'em high, and get as much media exposure in the process as possible.

Pendulums swing both ways, and tend to go quite a way before starting back in the other direction. For years, these kinds of issues were hushed up. Recent events and the collapse of real news organizations with real reporters has led to guilt by accusation. It is a tough thing for society as a whole, and it is certainly difficult when something like the UM scandal scenario occurs. Loyal is not just being a Sophist. It was pretty clear that some people were guilty of something, and some of them were guilty of something pretty serious. Which guys, which level of offenses, etc., was harder to pin down. It appeared to me at the time that Claeys accepted what he was told without sufficient investigation. Because he is a relatively open guy (not a surprising personality trait in a long time DC), once he was swayed to a particular viewpoint he acted. In hindsight, he should probably not have permitted himself to be swayed, at least until he had heard more from other viewpoints. There are, as Biggs suggests, some things for which institutional (not personal) forgiveness simply cannot be granted. The offenders have to be banished. Some of the accused UM players appear to fit that description...but others may/probably did not, at least not fully. Justice is for the victim, but the pursuit of justice should not create more victims who were not themselves significantly guilty.

Yes, it is hard to judge. That is why we need adults to do it. I wish that all you needed to know to judge someone's adulthood was their age, but we all recognize that age is no guarantee of adult behavior or judgment.

Did Tracy Claeys fail the HC judgment test, at least partially? It looks that way. Is he capable of learning enough from the experience to again be a HC someday? Maybe; the jury is out. But at this point in his life, is he likely to be a plus at DC, and not just for football knowledge? I'd have to say yes. We'll all have to stay tuned to see how it plays out, but I suspect that he brings some good personal experience to the party, and that his young men will benefit.

I am certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Coug95man2]

Living in greater LA and having many entertainment industry customers, I can tell you that the current attitude is pretty much guilty until proven innocent, hang 'em high, and get as much media exposure in the process as possible.

Pendulums swing both ways, and tend to go quite a way before starting back in the other direction. For years, these kinds of issues were hushed up. Recent events and the collapse of real news organizations with real reporters has led to guilt by accusation. It is a tough thing for society as a whole, and it is certainly difficult when something like the UM scandal scenario occurs. Loyal is not just being a Sophist. It was pretty clear that some people were guilty of something, and some of them were guilty of something pretty serious. Which guys, which level of offenses, etc., was harder to pin down. It appeared to me at the time that Claeys accepted what he was told without sufficient investigation. Because he is a relatively open guy (not a surprising personality trait in a long time DC), once he was swayed to a particular viewpoint he acted. In hindsight, he should probably not have permitted himself to be swayed, at least until he had heard more from other viewpoints. There are, as Biggs suggests, some things for which institutional (not personal) forgiveness simply cannot be granted. The offenders have to be banished. Some of the accused UM players appear to fit that description...but others may/probably did not, at least not fully. Justice is for the victim, but the pursuit of justice should not create more victims who were not themselves significantly guilty.

Yes, it is hard to judge. That is why we need adults to do it. I wish that all you needed to know to judge someone's adulthood was their age, but we all recognize that age is no guarantee of adult behavior or judgment.

Did Tracy Claeys fail the HC judgment test, at least partially? It looks that way. Is he capable of learning enough from the experience to again be a HC someday? Maybe; the jury is out. But at this point in his life, is he likely to be a plus at DC, and not just for football knowledge? I'd have to say yes. We'll all have to stay tuned to see how it plays out, but I suspect that he brings some good personal experience to the party, and that his young men will benefit.

I am certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Great post. I don't know though. I lean towards Biggs view, though. But at the same time, we all deserve a second chance (Claeys). And CML has shown time and again that he is willing to give second chances to players. To think he wouldn't give a coach the same, seems myopic. CML is open about his rules. He gives parameters and he gives them to all, I'd wager. One of the things I truly do like about CML. He gives second chances. I'd wager this was a topic during the interview process. I'm sure CML is clear on his stance.

I don't know. I guess I'm talking myself into being OK with this. But this is certainly not clear cut. I don't even what to think about what happened between the girl and all the players. First off, I just don't get that "lifestyle". But to open one's self to such ease of the dark side of human nature seems... illogical. One could say naive but that almost seems trite to what happened. I just don't get any side of that situation. So I'll focus on a coach that hopefully sees his error, I'll trust CML that he's expressed SOME sort of moral code that coaches and players MUST abide to and if they've not been abided to, there are clear, transparent ramifications. I hope Claeys is clear on this...

EDIT: and I hope CML and Claeys understands there is a whole bunch of us that are watching. This is a sensitive issue, to say the least. This, of all the times, isn't when I want CML to get all pissy about a question, if this comes up at a press conference or something. He can be pissy all day and night regarding just about anything else... and I'd probably laugh about all of it, but since he brought this into "the house", he better tread lightly.

 

[CougPatrol]

There appears to have been some level of coercion just getting her in the room in the first place.

This what most people are programmed to think. "She couldn't have consented to this on her own. She must have been coerced and manipulated."

Like cr8zyncalif eluded to, the guilty until proven innocent stuff bothers me, which is why as you say, I'm all over the place on issues like these. No woman deserves to be raped, and no man deserves to be falsely accused of rape.

I have no idea what really happened to this woman, but I'm quite positive that young women are consenting to these types of encounters every weekend on every college campus in America. Contrary to how the media portrays these situations, women aren't always innocent victims in these cases.

 

[CougEd]

Minnesota fan here - I'm happy to chime in.

First, about coach Claeys - I wanted him to get the full-time job when Jerry Kill retired, and I was glad when he did. What developed is that Claeys is an X/O guy, not a recruiter, which made him a better DC than head coach. Tactically, strategically, he's got a great football mind, but I don't think he relishes the recruiting side of things, he isn't adept at politics, and he isn't happy in the spotlight. Nevertheless, I was pleased with his first season as head coach, and I was looking forward to a future with Tracy Claeys as our head man.

About the sex assault scandal. I don't think that anyone would say coach Claeys fostered an atmosphere where sexual assault was tolerated, and he didn't fight to keep the accused players on the team. What he did - the notorious tweet in support of the team's threatened boycott - goes more to his lack of political aptitude than anything. The young men on the team failed to make a distinction between prosecution and school governance. They thought their teammates were entitled to more 'due process' than they were, and Claeys should have educated them about that. Instead, I think he was guilty of pandering and flattering them, and that was his big mistake.

The rest of the story is that we had a new AD who didn't like or respect Claeys and was looking for an excuse to fire Claeys so he could make his own sexy new hire, and Claeys foolishly put his Twitter in his mouth (or his foot in his Twitter?) and gave AD Mark Coyle a pretext to fire him.

Biggs is making a wild and unsupported leap when he accuses Claeys of supporting rape. Claeys, however, should have handled the situation differently, and as you have read, he admits that now.

How should he have handled it differently

 

[BiggsCoug]

This what most people are programmed to think. "She couldn't have consented to this on her own. She must have been coerced and manipulated."

Like cr8zyncalif eluded to, the guilty until proven innocent stuff bothers me, which is why as you say, I'm all over the place on issues like these. No woman deserves to be raped, and no man deserves to be falsely accused of rape.

I have no idea what really happened to this woman, but I'm quite positive that young women are consenting to these types of encounters every weekend on every college campus in America. Contrary to how the media portrays these situations, women aren't always innocent victims in these cases.

Totally agree. But when she decides it's over and it keeps going, what do you call that?

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Totally agree. But when she decides it's over and it keeps going, what do you call that?

Biggs, IMO at that point it becomes rape. Unfortunately, I suspect that sort of thing is tough to turn off and on like water or a light switch. It is also important prior to assigning punishment to understand who kept going when consent was pulled. I can't paint everyone involved with the same brush, because timing seems to have been an important thing in how the choreography played out.

 

[CougEd]

Deplorable as it was....the HC acting beyond these facts....would of opened the door to further lawsuits from the players. How a certain small percentage of men could participate in something like this...we'll never understand. Anyone like the idea of 12 dripping condoms left on a dresser drawer??? I didn't think so.

They can boot them off the team for going to a party if the coach wanted to. Or they simply don’t renew their scholie .make up a charge if need be .

 

[SaveFerris]

This what most people are programmed to think. "She couldn't have consented to this on her own. She must have been coerced and manipulated."

Like cr8zyncalif eluded to, the guilty until proven innocent stuff bothers me, which is why as you say, I'm all over the place on issues like these. No woman deserves to be raped, and no man deserves to be falsely accused of rape.

I have no idea what really happened to this woman, but I'm quite positive that young women are consenting to these types of encounters every weekend on every college campus in America. Contrary to how the media portrays these situations, women aren't always innocent victims in these cases.

Are you programmed to believe if a women enters a room alone with someone she wants to have sex and anything that happens after that is "consent"?

I made the "all over the place" comment because you also seem comfortable that the victim should have known from the start they were "douche bags". Why should she have predetermined that was the case? Why is she also responsible for the f-ed up actions of someone else? That's stereotypical "frat" mentality.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Biggs, IMO at that point it becomes rape. Unfortunately, I suspect that sort of thing is tough to turn off and on like water or a light switch. It is also important prior to assigning punishment to understand who kept going when consent was pulled. I can't paint everyone involved with the same brush, because timing seems to have been an important thing in how the choreography played out.

It was an awful scene that should never have happened.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

This what most people are programmed to think. "She couldn't have consented to this on her own. She must have been coerced and manipulated."

Like cr8zyncalif eluded to, the guilty until proven innocent stuff bothers me, which is why as you say, I'm all over the place on issues like these. No woman deserves to be raped, and no man deserves to be falsely accused of rape.

I have no idea what really happened to this woman, but I'm quite positive that young women are consenting to these types of encounters every weekend on every college campus in America. Contrary to how the media portrays these situations, women aren't always innocent victims in these cases.

While I do agree with some of what you say, it's really difficult to buy into the idea that she deserved to get gang raped by up to 20 guys because she was a drunk slut who didn't think ahead. There's no doubt that she holds some responsibility for what happened that night, but in these situations, the rapist a-holes that took advantage of the drunk chick are the villains here and making excuses for them doesn't reflect well on anybody.

For the Minnesota fan who posted, the post sounded pretty reasonable, but when the rape was reported last year, someone who attended U of M posted on Facebook that it was well known around campus that the football players liked running the train on drunk chicks and that they had been told to avoid parties where football players would be in attendance. So, did Claeys knowingly foster an atmosphere encouraging it? Probably not, but it's possible that people on the staff knew the reputation and chose to ignore it. At some point, there's responsibility, but nobody knows how much the staff knew, if anything. It's just a tragic situation that should have never happened in so many ways.

 

[dgibbons]

Google is your friend.

Just because something wasn’t charged doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

This was a nightmare for this poor girl. It was a life course changing event. Those boys should’ve been run off campus. Let the lawyers sue.

It doesn’t mean anyone was raped either.

 

[CougPatrol]

Totally agree. But when she decides it's over and it keeps going, what do you call that?

I’d call that rape. And again, that may have happened, or it may not have. Either way, they all would have been booted it were me.

Regarding Claeys, I don’t think this issue should define him as a person, and I’m not just saying that because we hired him. It was an awful situation, and I can see why he handled it poorly initially. It would blindside a lot of people.