University of Idaho murders

[spongeandshoot]

They most likely were all drugged. I imagine it would be hard to kill 4 people, one being a decent sized dude, without other people knowing in the house. The toxicology will show something I'd imagine

Yeah that was my thought. How do you kill 4 people with a knife?

That dude was probably 6'2....and a struggling woman...nevermind 3 would not be an easy task.

The hardest fight I ever had to break up when I was a bouncer was a woman who broke a beer bottle over another woman's head.

So yeah, it was probably someone they were hanging out with as there was no forced entry. I would think social media would provide some clues. Maybe someone being a little obsessive

 

[95coug]

They most likely were all drugged. I imagine it would be hard to kill 4 people, one being a decent sized dude, without other people knowing in the house. The toxicology will show something I'd imagine

If they were killed at the same time/together, yes. If they were killed one at a time, in their sleep, moving room to room….maybe not.

Or, maybe there was more than one killer.

 

[95coug]

Yeah that was my thought. How do you kill 4 people with a knife?

That dude was probably 6'2....and a struggling woman...nevermind 3 would not be an easy task.

The hardest fight I ever had to break up when I was a bouncer was a woman who broke a beer bottle over another woman's head.

So yeah, it was probably someone they were hanging out with as there was no forced entry. I would think social media would provide some clues. Maybe someone being a little obsessive

Theories:

• Multiple assailants
• At least one assailant with a gun - force compliance & tie them up
• Wait until they’re separated in their rooms and asleep.

I agree with Bleed too…using a knife is up close & personal. You don’t do that 4 times without either having some rage or being completely unhinged. Either attracts attention.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Theories:

• Multiple assailants
• At least one assailant with a gun - force compliance & tie them up
• Wait until they’re separated in their rooms and asleep.

I agree with Bleed too…using a knife is up close & personal. You don’t do that 4 times without either having some rage or being completely unhinged. Either attracts attention.

My thoughts are that usually a knife in a fit of jealous rage directed at 1 person..but 4?

That part doesn't add up and why I am leaning on the unhinged theory...which is scary

 

[95coug]

My thoughts are that usually a knife in a fit of jealous rage directed at 1 person..but 4?

That part doesn't add up and why I am leaning on the unhinged theory...which is scary

Yeah, but you wouldn’t expect 4 on the first time out. And, if they’re that unhinged, do they stop at 4, or take a few days off? Can they do it without leaving evidence, and then hide it for 4 days? And do they leave 2 alive in the house?

There are a lot of unknowns, which makes it hard to go down any path that makes sense.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Yeah, but you wouldn’t expect 4 on the first time out. And, if they’re that unhinged, do they stop at 4, or take a few days off? Can they do it without leaving evidence, and then hide it for 4 days? And do they leave 2 alive in the house?

There are a lot of unknowns, which makes it hard to go down any path that makes sense.

I hear ya. Always appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I've watched a lot of true crime but this case is just baffling.

And way to close to home.

 

[79COUG]

The day after the murders the mayor was on local (Spokane) tv saying it appears to be a "crime of passion". That implies jealous ex, etc. Nothing has been said along those lines since.
Keep in mind the public officials that have commented and made ill-advised remarks have never had to deal with this kind of pressure before. It ain't LA... it's Moscow Idaho. I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying willing to give them a break over their comments in the beginning. The Feds are all over this now anyway and I'm sure that behind the scenes there's all kinds of shit happening we know nothing of.
Biggs, my daughter is there in Pullman as well and she echoes the sentiments your daughters expressed. She works part time for a local defense attorney so she feels somewhat "hardened" to it all but nonetheless is taking extra precautions.

 

[COUGinNCW]

My thoughts are that usually a knife in a fit of jealous rage directed at 1 person..but 4?

That part doesn't add up and why I am leaning on the unhinged theory...which is scary

1 target and the other 3 were potential witnesses.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

1 target and the other 3 were potential witnesses.

except there were 5 potential witnesses.

 

[95coug]

The day after the murders the mayor was on local (Spokane) tv saying it appears to be a "crime of passion". That implies jealous ex, etc. Nothing has been said along those lines since.
Keep in mind the public officials that have commented and made ill-advised remarks have never had to deal with this kind of pressure before. It ain't LA... it's Moscow Idaho. I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying willing to give them a break over their comments in the beginning. The Feds are all over this now anyway and I'm sure that behind the scenes there's all kinds of shit happening we know nothing of.
Biggs, my daughter is there in Pullman as well and she echoes the sentiments your daughters expressed. She works part time for a local defense attorney so she feels somewhat "hardened" to it all but nonetheless is taking extra precautions.

Yeah, the comments from the mayor seemed ill-advised. Even some of the coroner’s comments probably shouldn’t have been public.

Last I saw, the FBI people were saying they’re not the lead agency, which makes sense. My guess is they’re there for experience and resources, and hopefully they’re effectively- if not officially - leading. Moscow/Pullman have so few murders that their PD will need the help.

 

[COUGinNCW]

except there were 5 potential witnesses.

Assuming the killer knew the other 2 were in the house.

 

[95coug]

I hear ya. Always appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I've watched a lot of true crime but this case is just baffling.

And way to close to home.

I think a lot of these are baffling at first, but good police work and witnesses start providing tiny pieces that eventually form a clear picture. Just takes time. I have a hard time believing that someone could commit 4 murders like this without leaving something behind…and I think the more carefully it’s pulled off, the less likely it’s someone who’s completely unhinged.

Today’s tidbits - the other 2 roommates are cooperating, neither of them called 911. And the victims had multiple wounds from a large knife (I think the coroner said “very large”), and they’re now checking local stores for anyone who bought a fixed blade recently. That makes me think hunting knife…which isn’t something you casually carry around, it’s something you intentionally take to a specific place to use.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I think a lot of these are baffling at first, but good police work and witnesses start providing tiny pieces that eventually form a clear picture. Just takes time. I have a hard time believing that someone could commit 4 murders like this without leaving something behind…and I think the more carefully it’s pulled off, the less likely it’s someone who’s completely unhinged.

Today’s tidbits - the other 2 roommates are cooperating, neither of them called 911. And the victims had multiple wounds from a large knife (I think the coroner said “very large”), and they’re now checking local stores for anyone who bought a fixed blade recently. That makes me think hunting knife…which isn’t something you casually carry around, it’s something you intentionally take to a specific place to use.

I heard it was a K-Bar or similar type survival knife.

 

[95coug]

I heard it was a K-Bar or similar type survival knife.

That seems to be the implication. Haven’t seen anything that actually identifies it, but makes sense.

 

[spongeandshoot]

I think a lot of these are baffling at first, but good police work and witnesses start providing tiny pieces that eventually form a clear picture. Just takes time. I have a hard time believing that someone could commit 4 murders like this without leaving something behind…and I think the more carefully it’s pulled off, the less likely it’s someone who’s completely unhinged.

Today’s tidbits - the other 2 roommates are cooperating, neither of them called 911. And the victims had multiple wounds from a large knife (I think the coroner said “very large”), and they’re now checking local stores for anyone who bought a fixed blade recently. That makes me think hunting knife…which isn’t something you casually carry around, it’s something you intentionally take to a specific place to use.

That is weird that the roomates didn't call 911.

I saw Michael Baden interviewed today and they do think it was the K-Bar.

He also made some interesting comments about how it could happen.

Either there was another assailant...or the suspect was waiting there for them and the vicitims arrived at staggered times throughout the night.

I still find it hard to believe the roomates didn't hear anything.

 

[95coug]

That is weird that the roomates didn't call 911.

I saw Michael Baden interviewed today and they do think it was the K-Bar.

He also made some interesting comments about how it could happen.

Either there was another assailant...or the suspect was waiting there for them and the vicitims arrived at staggered times throughout the night.

I still find it hard to believe the roomates didn't hear anything.

My assumption is that they were upstairs (that part has been reported) and that they were passed out after a Saturday night partying.

I found a Baden interview that references a “Rambo style” knife.

The idea of the waiting assailant is interesting. Possible he could make the attacks with little resistance and screaming in that scenario…or that he could catch them one at a time to tie up & gag.

The door was left open, and we know how cold it was in Pullman, even 12 hours earlier. If the bodies were closer to the door, they’d cool faster and could create some difficulties determining time of death. The fact that the 911 call was for an unconscious person, and wasn’t made by the roommates, suggest that at least one victim was either outside or was visible from outside.

 

[spongeandshoot]

My assumption is that they were upstairs (that part has been reported) and that they were passed out after a Saturday night partying.

I found a Baden interview that references a “Rambo style” knife.

The idea of the waiting assailant is interesting. Possible he could make the attacks with little resistance and screaming in that scenario…or that he could catch them one at a time to tie up & gag.

The door was left open, and we know how cold it was in Pullman, even 12 hours earlier. If the bodies were closer to the door, they’d cool faster and could create some difficulties determining time of death. The fact that the 911 call was for an unconscious person, and wasn’t made by the roommates, suggest that at least one victim was either outside or was visible from outside.

One other thought...the roomates could be suspects.

As a side note, I can't really recall a mass murder with a knife off the top of my head outside of the manson murders. I am sure there are some...but it is very rare

 

[95coug]

One other thought...the roomates could be suspects.

As a side note, I can't really recall a mass murder with a knife off the top of my head outside of the manson murders. I am sure there are some...but it is very rare

And this is where the media breaks down. I've seen reports that said the roommates were not suspects, and a report that said they were neither cleared nor considered suspects. And both reports attributed those statements to the same person. They both said the roommates are cooperating, which might suggest they're not involved.

Yeah, a knife isn't common. When I've seen stories about them before, it's usually a multiple murder-suicide within a family. There's also the Manson murders, and I think it was in China a few years back that someone killed a bunch of kids in a school.

There's just not enough information to point in a clear direction, which is what a lot of the fear and frustration is about. I read today that students in Pullman have been going home early too, with fear of the suspect on the loose as their motivator. That's probably not helping the investigation - it means that thousands of potential witnesses (and possible suspects) are no longer in town and are more difficult to interview. I suspect that when this all comes out, and there's a suspect (or suspects) in custody, much more information will become available. At that point, it'll start to become more clear why they haven't said more.

 

[CougEd]

And this is where the media breaks down. I've seen reports that said the roommates were not suspects, and a report that said they were neither cleared nor considered suspects. And both reports attributed those statements to the same person. They both said the roommates are cooperating, which might suggest they're not involved.

Yeah, a knife isn't common. When I've seen stories about them before, it's usually a multiple murder-suicide within a family. There's also the Manson murders, and I think it was in China a few years back that someone killed a bunch of kids in a school.

There's just not enough information to point in a clear direction, which is what a lot of the fear and frustration is about. I read today that students in Pullman have been going home early too, with fear of the suspect on the loose as their motivator. That's probably not helping the investigation - it means that thousands of potential witnesses (and possible suspects) are no longer in town and are more difficult to interview. I suspect that when this all comes out, and there's a suspect (or suspects) in custody, much more information will become available. At that point, it'll start to become more clear why they haven't said more.

And was it someone out of town for Dad’s weekend who was in Moscow . Not necessarily a dad but family member.

Pullman cleared out early. I can’t get my kids on an earlier flight or even an earlier bus to come home like many of their fellow students . Which I am sure makes them a little uneasy . Their neighbors that give them a feeling of security are offensive lineman and of course they are in Arizona . So Pullman really is a ghost town and my guess Moscow is as well .

Who would have thought the Palouse would be dealing with such a tragedy .

 

[dgibbons]

I think a lot of these are baffling at first, but good police work and witnesses start providing tiny pieces that eventually form a clear picture. Just takes time. I have a hard time believing that someone could commit 4 murders like this without leaving something behind…and I think the more carefully it’s pulled off, the less likely it’s someone who’s completely unhinged.

Today’s tidbits - the other 2 roommates are cooperating, neither of them called 911. And the victims had multiple wounds from a large knife (I think the coroner said “very large”), and they’re now checking local stores for anyone who bought a fixed blade recently. That makes me think hunting knife…which isn’t something you casually carry around, it’s something you intentionally take to a specific place to use.

They always leave something behind- DNA, clothing fibers, fingerprint, etc. They always take something with them too- carpet fibers, DNA from the victim, clothing fibers from the victim, etc.

 

[dgibbons]

Sounds like the bedrooms were on different floors. Two bedrooms per floor.

 

[95coug]

Sounds like the bedrooms were on different floors. Two bedrooms per floor.

They confirmed today that all 4 were in bed, likely asleep when things started. Also disclosed that the house had a keypad lock, so there’s a likelihood that either someone had the code or they were already in the house…unless a door was left open.

 

[ttowncoug]

Tragic. I'd imagine the 1 or the two roommates have to be suspects. Roommate motive: roommate noise and was sick of them or some type of drug use rage or combo of the two? You just can't figure out the motive to kill all 4, while asleep, and this is where my mind goes.

 

[spongeandshoot]

They confirmed today that all 4 were in bed, likely asleep when things started. Also disclosed that the house had a keypad lock, so there’s a likelihood that either someone had the code or they were already in the house…unless a door was left open.

Yeah I saw an interview with the dad that maybe they got in thru the side door because of the code on the front.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Tragic. I'd imagine the 1 or the two roommates have to be suspects. Roommate motive: roommate noise and was sick of them or some type of drug use rage or combo of the two? You just can't figure out the motive to kill all 4, while asleep, and this is where my mind goes.

that is what I have been thinking today. There could be tension/jealousy and maybe one of them had enough and snapped.

 

[95coug]

that is what I have been thinking today. There could be tension/jealousy and maybe one of them had enough and snapped.

I think if it was something like that, the remorse would kick in and eventually the person would spill. Unless they're completely unhinged.

Today's tidbit from ISP, the victims were in the 2nd & 3rd floor bedrooms. If the door is on the 1st, that would suggest that the other 2 roommates were bypassed by the killer. I haven't seen a clear picture though, kind of looks like this place may have had entries on 2 levels. One of the victims' sister said that this was a party house, and they may not have been very restrictive with the door code, so that opens up a lot of possibilities again.

EDIT: and, even newer, Moscow PD does not believe either of the roommates was involved. Neither was the guy in the background of the food truck video. The victims were not tied up/gagged. "Some" had defensive wounds.

The pieces so far really seem to point to random lunatic more than to someone who was pissed at a victim.

And, Moscow is crawling with cops now:
Moscow Police Department:
• 4 Detectives
• 24 Patrol Officers
• 5 Support Staff
Federal Bureau of In Investigators:
• 22 investigators in Moscow
• 20 assigned agents located out of Treasure Valley, ID, Salt Lake City, Utah, and West Virginia
• 2 Behavior Analysis Unit
Idaho State Police:
• 20 investigators
• 15 troopers
• Public Information Officer
• ISP Forensics Services and mobile crime scene team
• 15 uniformed troopers to assist with community patrols

 

[spongeandshoot]

I think if it was something like that, the remorse would kick in and eventually the person would spill. Unless they're completely unhinged.

Today's tidbit from ISP, the victims were in the 2nd & 3rd floor bedrooms. If the door is on the 1st, that would suggest that the other 2 roommates were bypassed by the killer. I haven't seen a clear picture though, kind of looks like this place may have had entries on 2 levels. One of the victims' sister said that this was a party house, and they may not have been very restrictive with the door code, so that opens up a lot of possibilities again.

EDIT: and, even newer, Moscow PD does not believe either of the roommates was involved. Neither was the guy in the background of the food truck video. The victims were not tied up/gagged. "Some" had defensive wounds.

The pieces so far really seem to point to random lunatic more than to someone who was pissed at a victim.

And, Moscow is crawling with cops now:
Moscow Police Department:
• 4 Detectives
• 24 Patrol Officers
• 5 Support Staff
Federal Bureau of In Investigators:
• 22 investigators in Moscow
• 20 assigned agents located out of Treasure Valley, ID, Salt Lake City, Utah, and West Virginia
• 2 Behavior Analysis Unit
Idaho State Police:
• 20 investigators
• 15 troopers
• Public Information Officer
• ISP Forensics Services and mobile crime scene team
• 15 uniformed troopers to assist with community patrols

Yeah that was my original theory. Plus the roomates would have cuts on their hands more than likely.

A random lunatic is what I was afraid of...and is very possible at this point.

 

[95coug]

Yeah that was my original theory. Plus the roomates would have cuts on their hands more than likely.

A random lunatic is what I was afraid of...and is very possible at this point.

A random loonie wandering into random houses and killing strangers is pretty rare…but pretty terrifying

 

[spongeandshoot]

A random loonie wandering into random houses and killing strangers is pretty rare…but pretty terrifying

Just saw the roomates were excluded as suspects.

And yeah, that is very terrifying. I hope that is not the case.

This is an unusual case which I am sure has the experts scratching their heads.

 

[CougEd]

Just saw the roomates were excluded as suspects.

And yeah, that is very terrifying. I hope that is not the case.

This is an unusual case which I am sure has the experts scratching their heads.

Just texted a friend who is a court reporter . They told me from their experience that the police and fbi know way more than they are letting on . I hope they are right

 

[95coug]

Just texted a friend who is a court reporter . They told me from their experience that the police and fbi know way more than they are letting on . I hope they are right

I think that’s typically true, and I hope it’s the case here. They can’t be too public about what they know, or they risk scaring off the suspect. Let him think that they don’t know anything, right up until the second you kick down his front door.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I think that’s typically true, and I hope it’s the case here. They can’t be too public about what they know, or they risk scaring off the suspect. Let him think that they don’t know anything, right up until the second you kick down his front door.

In 2004, the Wichita Eagle posted an article on the 30th anniversary of the first BTK murders in Wichita. He was a serial killer in the 70's and 80's who went underground in 1991 without being caught. The article roused BTK from his "retirement" and he started communicating with a local news station and the police. Over time, they had a pretty good idea of who BTK was but they took the time to obtain DNA evidence from a family member to make sure that they had the right person. Pulled him over on his way home from work and he knew that he was cooked as soon as the lights came on.

Hope that the current silence is the authorities making sure that they have the right person as opposed to the original part of the BTK story where he got away with it for decades.

 

[95coug]

In 2004, the Wichita Eagle posted an article on the 30th anniversary of the first BTK murders in Wichita. He was a serial killer in the 70's and 80's who went underground in 1991 without being caught. The article roused BTK from his "retirement" and he started communicating with a local news station and the police. Over time, they had a pretty good idea of who BTK was but they took the time to obtain DNA evidence from a family member to make sure that they had the right person. Pulled him over on his way home from work and he knew that he was cooked as soon as the lights came on.

Hope that the current silence is the authorities making sure that they have the right person as opposed to the original part of the BTK story where he got away with it for decades.

BTK was an odd one. Stayed hidden for 30 years, and then got himself caught with junior high computer forensics. Wanted to send digital information to the police, and asked them ‘if I send you files, can you see who they came from?’ And then believed it when they said no…and sent the files. Signed by “Dennis” at his church. I think they then went to his daughter for DNA, and he was done.

 

[spongeandshoot]

In 2004, the Wichita Eagle posted an article on the 30th anniversary of the first BTK murders in Wichita. He was a serial killer in the 70's and 80's who went underground in 1991 without being caught. The article roused BTK from his "retirement" and he started communicating with a local news station and the police. Over time, they had a pretty good idea of who BTK was but they took the time to obtain DNA evidence from a family member to make sure that they had the right person. Pulled him over on his way home from work and he knew that he was cooked as soon as the lights came on.

Hope that the current silence is the authorities making sure that they have the right person as opposed to the original part of the BTK story where he got away with it for decades.

I followed that story pretty close and never knew he was on their radar.

Every documentary I have seen was that they didn't have a suspect until that got that cd rom in the mail

 

[wsudefense]

More interesting information

Both Fuhrman and Weisberg said knife attacks are usually personal and violent. Furhman noted that male killers usually shoot their victims while females more frequently opt for knives.

Homicides involving knives typically involve suspects who "have a lot of anger" and want to inflict "a lot of wounds," Fuhrman said.

Idaho student murders: Former officers say police 'jumped the gun' with initial 'targeted' attack statement

Two former detectives with the LAPD and NYPD weigh in on information police have released regarding the murders of four University of Idaho students.

news.yahoo.com

 

[95coug]

More interesting information

Both Fuhrman and Weisberg said knife attacks are usually personal and violent. Furhman noted that male killers usually shoot their victims while females more frequently opt for knives.

Homicides involving knives typically involve suspects who "have a lot of anger" and want to inflict "a lot of wounds," Fuhrman said.

Idaho student murders: Former officers say police 'jumped the gun' with initial 'targeted' attack statement

Two former detectives with the LAPD and NYPD weigh in on information police have released regarding the murders of four University of Idaho students.

news.yahoo.com

Generally correct, but that’s in reference to individual murders. Multiples are almost always men, regardless of weapon.

And, this is a scenario where someone went room to room across 2 floors killing 4 people up close & personal. Multiple wounds, slashing and stabbing. Hard to imagine that being simple anger or jealousy. Those feelings lead to 1 murder, maybe 2, in the heat of the moment. They don’t take you from room to room.

The information released so far doesn’t seem to point in a clear direction…but what there is makes the random psychopath scenario seem more likely than I thought last week.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Generally correct, but that’s in reference to individual murders. Multiples are almost always men, regardless of weapon.

And, this is a scenario where someone went room to room across 2 floors killing 4 people up close & personal. Multiple wounds, slashing and stabbing. Hard to imagine that being simple anger or jealousy. Those feelings lead to 1 murder, maybe 2, in the heat of the moment. They don’t take you from room to room.

The information released so far doesn’t seem to point in a clear direction…but what there is makes the random psychopath scenario seem more likely than I thought last week.

My whole thought from the beginning has been that a passion killing on 4 people doesn't make sense. What are the chances of someone being that angry at 4 people? Usually knife killings are born from jealousy or being wronged ie a cheating spouse or business partner screwing you over etc etc.

So that is why I jump to the random psychopath scenario...and it may just be that they were friends with a serial killer since there was no forced entry.

 

[95coug]

My whole thought from the beginning has been that a passion killing on 4 people doesn't make sense. What are the chances of someone being that angry at 4 people? Usually knife killings are born from jealousy or being wronged ie a cheating spouse or business partner screwing you over etc etc.

So that is why I jump to the random psychopath scenario...and it may just be that they were friends with a serial killer since there was no forced entry.

Yeah, the “crime of passion” never made much sense, and stopped making any when it came out that they were in separate rooms. Just doesn’t fit.

This is the kind of thing that central & South American cartels do - killing an entire family because one steps out of line. That’s the only type of attack I can think of that fits this in a “rational” way. That scenario doesn’t seem to fit this particular case, though.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I followed that story pretty close and never knew he was on their radar.

Every documentary I have seen was that they didn't have a suspect until that got that cd rom in the mail

They didn't know who he was until they had a 3 1/2" floppy disk with the file listing him as the potential author. They started surveillance on him and requested a court order to get his daughter's DNA from a test that she had performed on her in college. It took close to two weeks from when they had him identified as the lead suspect to having enough information to arrest him. Not a long time but I'm sure it felt like it.

 

[95coug]

They didn't know who he was until they had a 3 1/2" floppy disk with the file listing him as the potential author. They started surveillance on him and requested a court order to get his daughter's DNA from a test that she had performed on her in college. It took close to two weeks from when they had him identified as the lead suspect to having enough information to arrest him. Not a long time but I'm sure it felt like it.

Still…as meticulous as he was for years, as well as he covered his tracks, he goes down due to a stupid mistake. He could have used the internet to see if he could safely send digital files…instead he asked the police who were hunting him. Dumb. He’d also slipped before that and got his vehicle identified, although I don’t recall how. It was pretty dumb too, though.