Walden, Moos, etc redux

[dgibbons]

So tell me this .. if he won five games with the most experienced QBS maybe ever to wear a wsu uni , and with two senior defensive tackles with tons of experienced , and started to give up 50 plus points a game, how was he going to reverse that trend and win games ? You would have seen the same results u see Doba, as he had some of the basic tools in 07 to be representable . When your two best offensive players by far are your center and a wr without a qb to consistently get him the ball you are screwed.

Wsu was for the most part starting from scratch in the three most important positions . Even smu in their conference could find the bodies to rebuild quicker .

Again, Doba took a good thing and ran it into the ground .

I'm not saying that Doba was going to right the ship. The program was going downhill, that's why Doba was fired. I do think Doba would have won more than three games the next two seasons, and would not have posted four shutouts during that time, and might have even had the lead in regulation during just one game during the 2009 season.

What happened to Wulff's magic eye for talent that was going to lead WSU out of the abyss?

 

[dgibbons]

That's the beauty of a message board. I can post whatever I want....whenever I want. Again, I don't feel like talking about former coaches because it doesn't accomplish anything. We all agree that Wulff didn't do a good job in his time at WSU and needed to be fired. Well, everyone but Ed.....but virtually everyone.

Feel free to stop talking about it then. Speaking of bad looks....

 

[FnuLnu]

Where in my post did I use the word "surprise"? And who is they? Did you go to WSU for 15 years, and had classes with all of them from Ken Greene to Rosie? And what does my post have to do with Walden? (No need to answer, and in fact please don't.

I just think that on paper, 10+ years ago, it looked like a great staff.

The fact that the Walden/Erickson teams had off the field issues was pretty well known at the time, covered in the Spokesman and Daily Evergreen and were also discussed somewhat by Jim Walden's 2004 book (a good read btw).

Walden even discussed how much time he spent on it - and mentioned that Dennis Erickson when he got the WSU program debrief from Walden, Erickson said he was getting an unlisted phone number.

WSU had a pretty good position coach who coached for decades at the school but didn't have his degree - didn't like to recruit. And really made no effort to getting ready to take over the program.

The Aloha Bowl team was Jim Walden's good ol boys not being properly supervised by Dennis Erickson (who in turn wasn't properly supervised by Jim Livengood). Lots of entitlement from that group of players. The "Doba Ate My Howework" excuse came from that era.

 

[Loyal Coug]

The fact that the Walden/Erickson teams had off the field issues was pretty well known at the time, covered in the Spokesman and Daily Evergreen and were also discussed somewhat by Jim Walden's 2004 book (a good read btw).

Walden even discussed how much time he spent on it - and mentioned that Dennis Erickson when he got the WSU program debrief from Walden, Erickson said he was getting an unlisted phone number.

WSU had a pretty good position coach who coached for decades at the school but didn't have his degree - didn't like to recruit. And really made no effort to getting ready to take over the program.

The Aloha Bowl team was Jim Walden's good ol boys not being properly supervised by Dennis Erickson (who in turn wasn't properly supervised by Jim Livengood). Lots of entitlement from that group of players. The "Doba Ate My Howework" excuse came from that era.

Yah well I went to WSU during the Walden years so I know lots about that time period on campus. Some of the basketball players were worse citizens.

At any rate, it is unfortunate that the program under the Doba regime went down the tubes - or started the trip down the tubes. Doba is a great guy, was a great DC, and a great Coug. He deserved better effort from his staff.

 

[CougEd]

The fact that the Walden/Erickson teams had off the field issues was pretty well known at the time, covered in the Spokesman and Daily Evergreen and were also discussed somewhat by Jim Walden's 2004 book (a good read btw).

Walden even discussed how much time he spent on it - and mentioned that Dennis Erickson when he got the WSU program debrief from Walden, Erickson said he was getting an unlisted phone number.

WSU had a pretty good position coach who coached for decades at the school but didn't have his degree - didn't like to recruit. And really made no effort to getting ready to take over the program.

The Aloha Bowl team was Jim Walden's good ol boys not being properly supervised by Dennis Erickson (who in turn wasn't properly supervised by Jim Livengood). Lots of entitlement from that group of players. The "Doba Ate My Howework" excuse came from that era.

Show me a program that doesn’t.

 

[FnuLnu]

Show me a program that doesn’t.

1.88 Team GPA in 1988

UW doesn't let coaches w/o a degree coach even as an assistant. Lambright wanted Jim Zorn as his QB coach and wasn't allowed to bring him board.

 

[YakiCoug]

1.88 Team GPA in 1988

UW doesn't let coaches w/o a degree coach even as an assistant. Lambright wanted Jim Zorn as his QB coach and wasn't allowed to bring him board.

A mark only worse than the use of steroids during the Walden era, which sent three "enhanced" d-linemen to the NFL. So much for Walden's coaching genius.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Orange I will connect the dots. By him donating his own money that was in savings told tells us he has a personal connection to the university. It explains his emotion around the position and his loyalty to Paul Wulff. And if someone doesn't think Leach would defend Hal Mumme or others he is connected to in a similar manner I think is being naive.

Those dots are obvious. It still doesn't excuse an irrational over emotional response to the situation. I personally think more than his loyalty to Wulff, the fact that the business side of coaching CF had passed Walden by in a massive way led to his eruption. Even if as AD you think Wulff was on track albeit slow going, you make the move Moose did to get Leach. If you're an AD and you have a chance to get a coach YOU as AD feel is a great coach and great fit for your school, you get him. Loyalty be damned. That's how things work these days with the amount of money at stake. Back when Walden was coaching things were handled differently. He obviously hasn't accepted the way the business has changed. I think that + his loyalty to Wulff was the perfect mix to push him to do/say what he did. I'm just saying I understand it. Don't necessarily agree with it, but understand it. He was solid coach for his time which has past. At some point the old guard has to be removed from influence if you want to grow unless they've adapted to the times. He probably should have been kept at arms length way before any of this happened.

 

[Fab5Coug]

So what you are saying is he was the second most successful coach in their history?

Just looking at raw numbers Leach is a .500 coach at WSU. Does that mean he isn't an exceptional coach? Not at all. Sometimes people are graded on a bell curve because of circumstances.

Being 6% better than average doesn't make him the 2nd best coach in their history. It makes him very slightly above average.

I don't know a ton about EWU football, nor do I care. But, just a cursory check of their history shows me Wulff was probably their 5th or 6th best coach ever. You could probably make a case for him over Zornes, based on winning the conference twice in fewer years. Zornes was there longer though, and won far more games. Either way, doesn't matter. He's miles from their 2nd best coach ever.

Beau Baldwin: 85-32 (.726). 5 conf champs & 1 natty
WB Reese: 66-26-9 (.698). 5 conf champs
Dave Holmes: 34-13-1 (.719). 3 conf champs
AH Poffenroth: 32-19-1 (.625). 4 conf champs
Dick Zornes: 89-66 (.573). 1 conf champs
Paul Wulff: 53-40 (.570). 2 conf champs

 

[CougEd]

1.88 Team GPA in 1988

UW doesn't let coaches w/o a degree coach even as an assistant. Lambright wanted Jim Zorn as his QB coach and wasn't allowed to bring him board.

FNU...I thought you were talking about off the field issues, which to me expands far beyond grades. Yep, 1.88 was horrible. Take Richie Swinton. Had the brains to get into Harvard, he had to miss spring practice in 1989 because of grades.

Walden probably gave Millard and Junior T a little too much rope. Went around beating the crap out of people. But as I said this exists everywhere. Look no farter than the party a year ago during the summer that was video taped.

Not sure what is meant by Bill Doba ate my homework comment.

 

[CougEd]

Being 6% better than average doesn't make him the 2nd best coach in their history. It makes him very slightly above average.

I don't know a ton about EWU football, nor do I care. But, just a cursory check of their history shows me Wulff was probably their 5th or 6th best coach ever. You could probably make a case for him over Zornes, based on winning the conference twice in fewer years. Zornes was there longer though, and won far more games. Either way, doesn't matter. He's miles from their 2nd best coach ever.

Beau Baldwin: 85-32 (.726). 5 conf champs & 1 natty
WB Reese: 66-26-9 (.698). 5 conf champs
Dave Holmes: 34-13-1 (.719). 3 conf champs
AH Poffenroth: 32-19-1 (.625). 4 conf champs
Dick Zornes: 89-66 (.573). 1 conf champs
Paul Wulff: 53-40 (.570). 2 conf champs

Over Zornes who was thought of highly, over Kramer who got a gig somewhere else. I think there might be a small difference as some coached when they were NAIA. But Wulff tracked with their history. Eastern too is a tough gig. McIlewane didn't take the gig when Wulff left because he would have 45000 to spead among three coaches based on their budget.

What is unfortunate is Beau Baldwin doesnt get a Pac 12 gig because of Paul Wulff. He seems to have a similar personalty to him, plus the lack of success Wulff had making the jump. It is too bad cause I think Baldwin would do a well.

 

[CougEd]

A mark only worse than the use of steroids during the Walden era, which sent three "enhanced" d-linemen to the NFL. So much for Walden's coaching genius.

Ummmm...who said Walden was a "coaching genius"? There are/were a lot of coaches who had roided players.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Over Zornes who was thought of highly, over Kramer who got a gig somewhere else. I think there might be a small difference as some coached when they were NAIA. But Wulff tracked with their history. Eastern too is a tough gig. McIlewane didn't take the gig when Wulff left because he would have 45000 to spead among three coaches based on their budget.

What is unfortunate is Beau Baldwin doesnt get a Pac 12 gig because of Paul Wulff. He seems to have a similar personalty to him, plus the lack of success Wulff had making the jump. It is too bad cause I think Baldwin would do a well.

Like I said, you could rank him ahead of Zornes, that puts him at 5 instead of 6. And I didn't list Kramer.

And I don't downgrade guys cause they coached when EWU was NAIA. When you're NAIA, you recruit NAIA talent and compete against NAIA competition. When you bump up to Big Sky, you get tougher competition, but you can recruit better players.

So, like I said, 5th or 6th best coach in their history. 6% better than their average. I'd say he was "good" at EWU. Not "great". My initial post on the topic was in response to a post saying Wulff was "pretty darn successful" at EWU.

 

[dgibbons]

Over Zornes who was thought of highly, over Kramer who got a gig somewhere else. I think there might be a small difference as some coached when they were NAIA. But Wulff tracked with their history. Eastern too is a tough gig. McIlewane didn't take the gig when Wulff left because he would have 45000 to spead among three coaches based on their budget.

What is unfortunate is Beau Baldwin doesnt get a Pac 12 gig because of Paul Wulff. He seems to have a similar personalty to him, plus the lack of success Wulff had making the jump. It is too bad cause I think Baldwin would do a well.

For the Big Sky, Eastern is a very good job. Sufficient talent in the area, lots of pac-12 schools nearby to scoop up transfers, the only FCS school in the state.

 

[CougEd]

Like I said, you could rank him ahead of Zornes, that puts him at 5 instead of 6. And I didn't list Kramer.

And I don't downgrade guys cause they coached when EWU was NAIA. When you're NAIA, you recruit NAIA talent and compete against NAIA competition. When you bump up to Big Sky, you get tougher competition, but you can recruit better players.

So, like I said, 5th or 6th best coach in their history. 6% better than their average. I'd say he was "good" at EWU. Not "great". My initial post on the topic was in response to a post saying Wulff was "pretty darn successful" at EWU.

I agree he was successful at EWU. The problem is he needed to do exactly what Baldwin is doing. Get connected.

 

[Observer11]

Ummmm...who said Walden was a "coaching genius"? There are/were a lot of coaches who had roided players.

UW won half a national championship with Dr. Feelgood.

 

[Observer11]

For the Big Sky, Eastern is a very good job. Sufficient talent in the area, lots of pac-12 schools nearby to scoop up transfers, the only FCS school in the state.

EWU is going to be a crap job in about 18 months. The new president is running out everyone who has an affinity to athletics and/or male genitalia.

Chaves will be gone within a year. Baldwin saw the writing on the wall and bailed while he still had some street cred. Same with Hayford in basketball. Idaho coming back into the Big Sky is going to impact EWU greatly, too.

 

[CougEd]

Those dots are obvious. It still doesn't excuse an irrational over emotional response to the situation. I personally think more than his loyalty to Wulff, the fact that the business side of coaching CF had passed Walden by in a massive way led to his eruption. Even if as AD you think Wulff was on track albeit slow going, you make the move Moose did to get Leach. If you're an AD and you have a chance to get a coach YOU as AD feel is a great coach and great fit for your school, you get him. Loyalty be damned. That's how things work these days with the amount of money at stake. Back when Walden was coaching things were handled differently. He obviously hasn't accepted the way the business has changed. I think that + his loyalty to Wulff was the perfect mix to push him to do/say what he did. I'm just saying I understand it. Don't necessarily agree with it, but understand it. He was solid coach for his time which has past. At some point the old guard has to be removed from influence if you want to grow unless they've adapted to the times. He probably should have been kept at arms length way before any of this happened.

The football world that Doba and Walden lived in ceased to exist. I agree the business side passed them both by. Do you think Doba would actively go after Arizona's recruits once they committed to Arizona? What Walden did in terms of emotion made the most sense to me. He was emotion personified. Being a Coug is based in emotion.

The only thing I disagree with you is Walden had zero say in WSU hiring Wulff. That is on Sterk, Moos, and Floyd, and don't forget Moos gave him one more year. Why didn't Moos hire Leach after 2010?