WSU attendance in the past four years

[Flatlandcoug]

Decided to take a look at game attendance over the past three years to see how things have looked:

2015
PSU - 24302
Wyoming - 31105
OSU - 32952
Stanford - 30012
ASU - 32952
CU - 25121 (game on 11/21)

2016
EWU - 32952
Idaho - 28477
Oregon - 33528
UCLA - 29310
UA - 33547
Cal - 30135 (11/12 home game before AC in Pullman)
UW - 33773

2017
Montana State - 30254
Boise State - 32631
OSU - 32487
Nevada - 30317
USC - 33773
CU - 31461
Stanford - 32952 (game on 11/4)

2018
SJSU - 26141
EWU - 32952
Utah - 30088
Oregon - 33152
Cal - 32952
Arizona - 22400 (11/17 home game right before AC in Pullman)
UW - 32952

Some takeaways:

According to the numbers, we've had 12 sellouts in the past four years (27 games). Of those, five games technically exceeded the official capacity of the stadium. I think that WSU should be making plans to expand our stadium to about 38,000 seats in some fashion. I don't think we should think too big, but if we are selling out about half of our games, it makes sense to see if we can afford to expand seating.

Somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 WSU fans don't have any desire to watch us play low level teams. Between concessions and ticket sales, WSU is leaving something between $200k and $400k per year on the table by playing those teams, but is it worth the money to play a team that we "should" beat?

Those same fans don't show up to games in Pullman after the first weekend in November. It looks to me that WSU might as well volunteer to play on the road after that first weekend in exchange for a home game when the weather is better.

Thoughts?

 

[425cougfan]

Decided to take a look at game attendance over the past three years to see how things have looked:

2015
PSU - 24302
Wyoming - 31105
OSU - 32952
Stanford - 30012
ASU - 32952
CU - 25121 (game on 11/21)

2016
EWU - 32952
Idaho - 28477
Oregon - 33528
UCLA - 29310
UA - 33547
Cal - 30135 (11/12 home game before AC in Pullman)
UW - 33773

2017
Montana State - 30254
Boise State - 32631
OSU - 32487
Nevada - 30317
USC - 33773
CU - 31461
Stanford - 32952 (game on 11/4)

2018
SJSU - 26141
EWU - 32952
Utah - 30088
Oregon - 33152
Cal - 32952
Arizona - 22400 (11/17 home game right before AC in Pullman)
UW - 32952

Some takeaways:

According to the numbers, we've had 12 sellouts in the past four years (27 games). Of those, five games technically exceeded the official capacity of the stadium. I think that WSU should be making plans to expand our stadium to about 38,000 seats in some fashion. I don't think we should think too big, but if we are selling out about half of our games, it makes sense to see if we can afford to expand seating.

Somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 WSU fans don't have any desire to watch us play low level teams. Between concessions and ticket sales, WSU is leaving something between $200k and $400k per year on the table by playing those teams, but is it worth the money to play a team that we "should" beat?

Those same fans don't show up to games in Pullman after the first weekend in November. It looks to me that WSU might as well volunteer to play on the road after that first weekend in exchange for a home game when the weather is better.

Thoughts?

Quick thoughts (always a dangerous preface):

- May be worth checking on whether some of those low-level early games are on back-to-back weeks or Labor Day weekend, each of which are tough on attendance. I generally am a fan of soft scheduling on the belief that bowls and wins are the key to media attention, recruiting, investment, donations, and the like. I am not sure substituting SJSU, Idaho, or some other cream puff for a better opponent, even if feasible -- you must get the opponent to travel to Pullman -- would lead to materially greater attendance or otherwise be worth it. It probably would just result in increased attendance for that game and decreased attendance for another home out-of-conference tilt that wasn't as attractive, especially if they were on back-to-back weeks.

- The extent to which the conference is receptive to our requests in scheduling is unclear. If they were, you'd think we'd do all we could to avoid games at times when student attendance was likely to be light (or other undesirable games from an attendance standpoint, like weeknight night games) and we still seem to get stuck with plenty of those.

- Stadium expansion is tricky. Big investment for an uncertain payoff in a limited number of home games, at a time when money is hard to come by. Easier from a revenue perspective just to bump up ticket prices a little or to pursue flexible pricing (e.g., higher prices for the Apple Cup, Dad's Weekend, and some other games that always draw well). As much as I'd like to see WSU with a slightly larger stadium for a lot of reasons, I'd rather see the IPF get shovels in the ground first, at least, with stadium expansion a secondary priority if the team continues to have success and we see more sellouts.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Decided to take a look at game attendance over the past three years to see how things have looked:

2015
PSU - 24302
Wyoming - 31105
OSU - 32952
Stanford - 30012
ASU - 32952
CU - 25121 (game on 11/21)

2016
EWU - 32952
Idaho - 28477
Oregon - 33528
UCLA - 29310
UA - 33547
Cal - 30135 (11/12 home game before AC in Pullman)
UW - 33773

2017
Montana State - 30254
Boise State - 32631
OSU - 32487
Nevada - 30317
USC - 33773
CU - 31461
Stanford - 32952 (game on 11/4)

2018
SJSU - 26141
EWU - 32952
Utah - 30088
Oregon - 33152
Cal - 32952
Arizona - 22400 (11/17 home game right before AC in Pullman)
UW - 32952

Some takeaways:

According to the numbers, we've had 12 sellouts in the past four years (27 games). Of those, five games technically exceeded the official capacity of the stadium. I think that WSU should be making plans to expand our stadium to about 38,000 seats in some fashion. I don't think we should think too big, but if we are selling out about half of our games, it makes sense to see if we can afford to expand seating.

Somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 WSU fans don't have any desire to watch us play low level teams. Between concessions and ticket sales, WSU is leaving something between $200k and $400k per year on the table by playing those teams, but is it worth the money to play a team that we "should" beat?

Those same fans don't show up to games in Pullman after the first weekend in November. It looks to me that WSU might as well volunteer to play on the road after that first weekend in exchange for a home game when the weather is better.

Thoughts?

Stadium expansion! One of my favorite topics. Thanks Flat.

I don't think this question is answerable, but I am curious about the figures relative to paid attendance vs butts in seats. 32,952 is our official capacity, and we see that number multiple times. Not sure how we exceeded that on 5 occasions, unless we sold standing room only tickets or the student sections squished in more people. AND every other seat was filled. Or purchased (continued below).

So I wonder - are we counting butts in seats, or tickets purchased? Or a combination - butts in seats for students, tickets purchased for non-student seats? And I believe that every non-student ticket is assigned a seat number (no such thing as general admission), right? Regardless, the "exact" sellouts must be a fabricated figure. No way do you have every single non-student seat paid or occupied, and the exact amount of students attending per capacity. Gawd I'm sounding like a bean counter.

I'm also curious (maybe I'll look it up over the weekend) as to how the seating breaks out. We can find the season tickets sold number. The suites/boxes are about 1,900 seats - can probably tie that down closer. Might have to actually get a stadium map and count seats to get the student section figures. The rest would be non-season ticket reserved seats.

Anyway, all that aside, Flat's point ties right into my and Jim Sterk's end zone second deck plans. I throw out 5,000 seats, although I bet you could get 7,000 if you brought it all the way up to the top of the reserved seats on both sides. Or if you configured it like Nebraska's end zones, stretch it out over Stadium Way and add about 20,000 seats.

And for all you end zone poo-poo'ers. I have not been in very many big stadiums. Rose Bowl, Kingdome, CLink. Mile High too, but not for an actual game. If you were to look at any big stadium and assess the height and distance from the field for the endzone and corner seats, it would really drive home that a second deck (meaning slightly elevated) in our end zone would provide seats that are a helluva lot better than thousands if not 10's of thousands of seats at these bigger stadiums. Seriously, look at Nebraska's layout (link below) Factoring in our cozy sidelines and end zones compared to many other stadiums (not Nebraska's, theirs are cozy too) makes this even more true.

I still recall my 1998 Rose Bowl seats. I was on about the 5 yard line, 10 or 15 rows up. I couldn't see shit past about the 50. On the 5 yard line 10 rows up at Martin, you can see pretty well except for the far corner of the field. We are sort of spoiled that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memor...:Aerial_view_of_Stadium_Memorial,_Lincoln.jpg

 

[Loyal Coug]

Quick thoughts (always a dangerous preface):

- May be worth checking on whether some of those low-level early games are on back-to-back weeks or Labor Day weekend, each of which are tough on attendance. I generally am a fan of soft scheduling on the belief that bowls and wins are the key to media attention, recruiting, investment, donations, and the like. I am not sure substituting SJSU, Idaho, or some other cream puff for a better opponent, even if feasible -- you must get the opponent to travel to Pullman -- would lead to materially greater attendance or otherwise be worth it. It probably would just result in increased attendance for that game and decreased attendance for another home out-of-conference tilt that wasn't as attractive, especially if they were on back-to-back weeks.

- The extent to which the conference is receptive to our requests in scheduling is unclear. If they were, you'd think we'd do all we could to avoid games at times when student attendance was likely to be light (or other undesirable games from an attendance standpoint, like weeknight night games) and we still seem to get stuck with plenty of those.

- Stadium expansion is tricky. Big investment for an uncertain payoff in a limited number of home games, at a time when money is hard to come by. Easier from a revenue perspective just to bump up ticket prices a little or to pursue flexible pricing (e.g., higher prices for the Apple Cup, Dad's Weekend, and some other games that always draw well). As much as I'd like to see WSU with a slightly larger stadium for a lot of reasons, I'd rather see the IPF get shovels in the ground first, at least, with stadium expansion a secondary priority if the team continues to have success and we see more sellouts.

All good and valid points. Labor Day weekend, weekend before T-giving and Apple Cup (which in the day used to BE Apple Cup of course) are the worst two. Back to back home games as well. Although I hear we are moving Apple Cup to October in Ellensburg, so that will be solved.

On opponent travel, we are pretty much screwed in any scenario other than the NW teams who we play in any scenario. Mutts always show up to rub our noses in it. Oregon always travels well to Pullman. Oregon State, meh but not terrible. Everyone else? Hell, Idaho doesn't even travel well. Boise State did OK I think. The rest of the Pac-12? nope. Some other Power 5 team? I suppose a high-profile team might bring in a couple of charter flights when the Pullman International Airport project gets finished. Otherwise, its fly to Spokane, bus down, and bus back to stay up there. Which I guess may not be that different than flying into LAX and making your way to Pasadena.

 

[Cougatron]

I am of the expanding the ability for people to get to the game / stay accomidations first

Then expand the stadium

Mindset.

First would be upgrading the RV lots with full hookups and really really nice layout.

This helps all our sports for people wanting to travel and come to the games.

Next would be establishing really great Gameday shuttles to / from Spokane.

Wheatland is okay... cougar express is okay but we can really upgrade these and make them incredible and super fun.

I think WSU should have its own fleet of amazing Gameday electric fleet busses (which are available now and save a ton of money on fuel costs) and they run from Moscow / Spokane / Walla Walla / Yakima to Pullman on game day.

Finally you have great hotel acomedations for people staying the night. Hilton Gardens / Holiday Inn / or condos that people can buy and then rent out... whatever works.

So in doing this the transportation to the game is upgraded and more accessible.

The RV lots are fantastic with great amenities

And the overnight stay options are excellent.

Then it’s about getting as many sellouts and wonderful Gameday experiences as possible till it is kinda of hard to get a seat because the demand is so high and it’s such a great, affordable, and easy experience.

Then you expand. And I think we should go to 45k-50k

I believe in building the transport / accomidations first to where there is no excuse for not going.

Then upgrading the stadium.

When the mechanism to get people to the game and stay is superb you’ll find that filling the stadium/expanding is real easy.

 

[425cougfan]

I am of the expanding the ability for people to get to the game / stay accomidations first

Then expand the stadium

Mindset.

First would be upgrading the RV lots with full hookups and really really nice layout.

This helps all our sports for people wanting to travel and come to the games.

Next would be establishing really great Gameday shuttles to / from Spokane.

Wheatland is okay... cougar express is okay but we can really upgrade these and make them incredible and super fun.

I think WSU should have its own fleet of amazing Gameday electric fleet busses (which are available now and save a ton of money on fuel costs) and they run from Moscow / Spokane / Walla Walla / Yakima to Pullman on game day.

Finally you have great hotel acomedations for people staying the night. Hilton Gardens / Holiday Inn / or condos that people can buy and then rent out... whatever works.

So in doing this the transportation to the game is upgraded and more accessible.

The RV lots are fantastic with great amenities

And the overnight stay options are excellent.

Then it’s about getting as many sellouts and wonderful Gameday experiences as possible till it is kinda of hard to get a seat because the demand is so high and it’s such a great, affordable, and easy experience.

Then you expand. And I think we should go to 45k-50k

I believe in building the transport / accomidations first to where there is no excuse for not going.

Then upgrading the stadium.

When the mechanism to get people to the game and stay is superb you’ll find that filling the stadium/expanding is real easy.

Yeah, lodging, access, and transportation are key. The (assumed) numbers are insane on this point for Pullman compared to any other Power 5 school, especially in view of all the night games we have now. Anyone have any idea of how many hotel rooms there are in Pullman/Moscow? Even if you expand to Lewiston/Clarkston, that only helps so much, and Spokane is pretty far away when the November night game is over at 1:30AM.

It always bugs me when fans of opposing teams knock WSU's stadium size or attendance without due consideration of the circumstances (night games, dangerous roads, long trips required for most fans, lack of lodging, all/most games now on TV, low local population, state border creating a bunch of Boise State fans to the east etc.). WSU drawing 25,000 actual butts in seats is pretty impressive compared to what some other schools do. Even UW, while its attendance has been on the rise, seems to only be able to get 55,000 actual butts in seats a decent chunk of the time. When you account for how easy it is for their fans and how many of them there are close to the stadium, that's fairly telling. Some color on those numbers is here: https://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/college/pac-12/university-of-washington/article221383570.html.

 

[CougPatrol]

Regarding the RV lot, one of the biggest improvements they could make would be to bulldoze the existing Beasley parking lot, remove the curbs, and level it. They could retrofit it with designated areas for porta-potty's, design it so they could have temporary 30A power cables available during the football season.

Yes, there would be some expense involved, but it wouldn't be astronomical. I'd like to see them add this to the scope of work needed for the permanent IPF facility.

 

[CougInSpain]

Regarding the RV lot, one of the biggest improvements they could make would be to bulldoze the existing Beasley parking lot, remove the curbs, and level it. They could retrofit it with designated areas for porta-potty's, design it so they could have temporary 30A power cables available during the football season.

Yes, there would be some expense involved, but it wouldn't be astronomical. I'd like to see them add this to the scope of work needed for the permanent IPF facility.

They could do the same thing to the Alumni Center parking a lot as well. Just as big if not bigger than the Beasley lot.

 

[mikalalas]

40,000 to 43,000 seats. 37,38k is to little because if leach stays another 10 years, and each of those 10 years is either a bowl game, championship contender, championship, NY6 contender, NY6, Playoff contender, candidate, etc, then might hit 37,38k in attendence, and be in same boat. But if make it at least 40k to 43k, then that leaves room to get to 37,38k in attendance, with the occasional 39k to 43k in attendance after 10 to 15 years of nonstop winning.

Also even at 40k to 43k stadium, that would still be smallest in Pac 12. I would not be surprised for each Pac 12 college to be EXPECTED to have at least a 43k to 47k stadium, in the future, and that includes WSU.

If cant have at least a 40k stadium, you really probably shouldnt be a Power 5 Big Boy Football College.

 

[Coug95man2]

I agree with the lodging, to a certain extent. It would be nice to have more/better options. But, because I travel as much as I do, I also see the swinging door or business's in Pullman. For lodging to start increasing, beyond the Marriott that, in 2016 added 122 rooms, other sports (ahem, BASKETBALL) need to step up. No business can do well on the premise that 6 or 7 times a year, they'll be booked solid. Summers, you'll be dead, just close your doors kind of dead. So other "seasons" need to start attracting. Otherwise it's quite known that the older mom & pop places are there for the duration. They own, it's all "extra" sort of speak. So demand NEEDS to start coming into play before others expand or open up.

So I don't know if the premise that this has to happen before stadium expansion, isn't putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I agree with the lodging, to a certain extent. It would be nice to have more/better options. But, because I travel as much as I do, I also see the swinging door or business's in Pullman. For lodging to start increasing, beyond the Marriott that, in 2016 added 122 rooms, other sports (ahem, BASKETBALL) need to step up. No business can do well on the premise that 6 or 7 times a year, they'll be booked solid. Summers, you'll be dead, just close your doors kind of dead. So other "seasons" need to start attracting. Otherwise it's quite known that the older mom & pop places are there for the duration. They own, it's all "extra" sort of speak. So demand NEEDS to start coming into play before others expand or open up.

So I don't know if the premise that this has to happen before stadium expansion, isn't putting the cart before the horse.

Exactly. Also, as I seem to have to remind people on occasion, Martin Stadium used to hold 4,600 more people (using the old official capacity of 37,600), and there were games where it truly sold out, butts in seats. I was at a couple of them. Since then 2-300 (that sound right?) hotel rooms have been added in Pullman and Moscow, and the RV lots have grown - a lot. You didn't used to see it way past the bubble and up the hill like you do now. So we have more ability to accommodate fans, and a smaller stadium to put them in.

So build that damn end zone second deck! 5,000 seats at least!!!

 

[YakiCoug]

Exactly. Also, as I seem to have to remind people on occasion, Martin Stadium used to hold 4,600 more people (using the old official capacity of 37,600), and there were games where it truly sold out, butts in seats. I was at a couple of them. Since then 2-300 (that sound right?) hotel rooms have been added in Pullman and Moscow, and the RV lots have grown - a lot. You didn't used to see it way past the bubble and up the hill like you do now. So we have more ability to accommodate fans, and a smaller stadium to put them in.

So build that damn end zone second deck! 5,000 seats at least!!!

Again, Moos's plan was to fill in the east endzone with suites on the top with GA on the bottom. He estimated this would add about 10,000 to the capacity.

 

[PeteTheChop]

I think we should go to 45k-50k

Biggs thinks 60K is the proper capacity for Martin Stadium, although that still may be 10-12 years away.

Hope that stadium expansion fundraising push kicks off in late 2020/early 2021 once the new IPF is moving toward completion.

 

[Cougatron]

Biggs thinks 60K is the proper capacity for Martin Stadium, although that still may be 10-12 years away.

Hope that stadium expansion fundraising push kicks off in late 2020/early 2021 once the new IPF is moving toward completion.

I think that’s the endgame number with it completely finished, but I see it in stages

44-50k the first major expansion
50-60k the second and final expansion.

But as I mentioned the infrastructure to drive that capacity needs to be in place first.

 

[Coug90]

If you build it they will come

 

[dgibbons]

I think that’s the endgame number with it completely finished, but I see it in stages

44-50k the first major expansion
50-60k the second and final expansion.

But as I mentioned the infrastructure to drive that capacity needs to be in place first.

I don’t think more than 45,000 or so could be built without knocking out the Fieldhouse or basically rebuilding that part of campus.

 

[95coug]

Martin will never draw 50K until the local lodging shortage is solved. It won’t get to 60K until there are also 4 lanes to at least Colfax.

 

[FnuLnu]

Martin will never draw 50K until the local lodging shortage is solved. It won’t get to 60K until there are also 4 lanes to at least Colfax.

Martin Stadium won't get to 65k until the Cougar Country Drive-In gets better management and a bigger parking lot.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Exactly. Also, as I seem to have to remind people on occasion, Martin Stadium used to hold 4,600 more people (using the old official capacity of 37,600), and there were games where it truly sold out, butts in seats. I was at a couple of them. Since then 2-300 (that sound right?) hotel rooms have been added in Pullman and Moscow, and the RV lots have grown - a lot. You didn't used to see it way past the bubble and up the hill like you do now. So we have more ability to accommodate fans, and a smaller stadium to put them in.

So build that damn end zone second deck! 5,000 seats at least!!!

That was before night games.

 

[M-I-Coug]

How long will Mike stay?
.
Recruiting is everything.
.
Lose a big name coach and you're lucky to fill 30K.
.
Oregon State (for the most part), will ALWAYS be Oregon State.
.
Add 15,000 seats and then the Mike Leach era is over? Then what? Hope like Oregon State and Idaho?

 

[Cougatron]

How long will Mike stay?
.
Recruiting is everything.
.
Lose a big name coach and you're lucky to fill 30K.
.
Oregon State (for the most part), will ALWAYS be Oregon State.
.
Add 15,000 seats and then the Mike Leach era is over? Then what? Hope like Oregon State and Idaho?

Hire another great coach.

 

[M-I-Coug]

Hire another great coach.

I like your idea of bulldozing the Beasley RV Lot and adding full-hookups, however, anyone with a decent RV can just fill up with fresh water and dump at the dump station on the way out of town...so the minimum....electric only. Have electric only so we can run or flat panels, etc...leave behind the generator, and run the heat and stove on propane. Yes, full hookups would be ideal, but I would be thrilled to have electric only.

 

[425cougfan]

How long will Mike stay?
.
Recruiting is everything.
.
Lose a big name coach and you're lucky to fill 30K.
.
Oregon State (for the most part), will ALWAYS be Oregon State.
.
Add 15,000 seats and then the Mike Leach era is over? Then what? Hope like Oregon State and Idaho?

The idea is to make WSU more like Kansas State. Former bottom-of-conference performer in a disadvantageous location that, by simply pushing through that to get to a higher level of performance with a very good coach, has changed the way the athletic department and school are viewed, with increased donations and the like following suit, allowing better facilities to be put in place, and for it to go from a bad football school to a pretty good one.

Of course, even this example shows how difficult this is ... when Snyder left the first time, the program quickly took a step back. We'll see what happens now.

Other than when major money infusions have happened, such as at Oregon and at Oklahoma State, the haves and have nots tend to stay quite constant over time, subject to some oscillation between national-level achievement and mediocrity for some of the "haves." Few of the true have-nots (Kansas, WSU, Wake Forest, Oregon State, etc.) have turned that around in any kind of sustainable way. Kansas State is the only example that comes to mind, and even that may be temporary as I allude to here. If you were to get me to be honest, what we're experiencing right now is probably more like the success Oregon State had under Riley and Erickson about 20 years ago than it is WSU turning into some kind of perpetual top-25 football school. It's not exactly the same; I think Leach can stay and have similar success to what he's had here for 10 years or more if he's so inclined. A future coach also could do well. The margin for error is always going to be low, though.

None of this is to say a reasonable stadium expansion couldn't make sense. I think that as a secondary priority if the team continues to do very well, getting the capacity to start with a 4 is defensible ... something like 41,000. If it wasn't for wanting the number to say it was 4x,xxx, I'd say something like 39,000 is right. Optically, filling out the east end zone, and maybe adding suites or a small upper portion (premium seating, ideally) to the seating on the north side of the stadium, would balance it out and it would look good, even without adding a ton of capacity, per se.

In an era of all games being televised (and, in the future, delivered to you on your mobile device, in a hologram, or whatever), with that cutting against attendance due to both the availability of the content at a very low cost and the horrible start times for the games, I think we're well past the time where pushing for even a 50,000-seat stadium in Pullman, let alone absurdity like a doubling to 60,000 seats, makes any kind of sense.

Also, while I hate to even go here, things like conference affiliation and even the future of football as we know it aren't certainties for the next, say, 20 years, and definitely not the next 30 or 40. As a WSU football fan, I want to ignore that and just hope it all works out for the best and that I'm watching the same kind of football we have now, or better, for the next 20-30 years, with WSU a member of it at the highest level, I wouldn't bet on that without at least thinking about the alternative if I was funding it or advising the funding source.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

The idea is to make WSU more like Kansas State. Former bottom-of-conference performer in a disadvantageous location that, by simply pushing through that to get to a higher level of performance with a very good coach, has changed the way the athletic department and school are viewed, with increased donations and the like following suit, allowing better facilities to be put in place, and for it to go from a bad football school to a pretty good one.

Of course, even this example shows how difficult this is ... when Snyder left the first time, the program quickly took a step back. We'll see what happens now.

Other than when major money infusions have happened, such as at Oregon and at Oklahoma State, the haves and have nots tend to stay quite constant over time, subject to some oscillation between national-level achievement and mediocrity for some of the "haves." Few of the true have-nots (Kansas, WSU, Wake Forest, Oregon State, etc.) have turned that around in any kind of sustainable way. Kansas State is the only example that comes to mind, and even that may be temporary as I allude to here. If you were to get me to be honest, what we're experiencing right now is probably more like the success Oregon State had under Riley and Erickson about 20 years ago than it is WSU turning into some kind of perpetual top-25 football school. It's not exactly the same; I think Leach can stay and have similar success to what he's had here for 10 years or more if he's so inclined. I think

None of this is to say a reasonable stadium expansion couldn't make sense. I think that as a secondary priority if the team continues to do very well, getting the capacity to start with a 4 is defensible ... something like 41,000. If it wasn't for wanting the number to say it was 4x,xxx, I'd say something like 39,000 is right. Optically, filling out the east end zone, and maybe adding suites or a small upper portion (premium seating, ideally) to the seating on the north side of the stadium, would balance it out and it would look good, even without adding a ton of capacity, per se.

In an era of all games being televised (and, in the future, delivered to you on your mobile device, in a hologram, or whatever), with that cutting against attendance due to both the availability of the content at a very low cost and the horrible start times for the games, I think we're well past the time where pushing for even a 50,000-seat stadium in Pullman, let alone absurdity like a doubling to 60,000 seats, makes any kind of sense.

Also, while I hate to even go here, things like conference affiliation and even the future of football as we know it aren't certainties for the next, say, 20 years, and definitely not the next 30 or 40. As a WSU football fan, I want to ignore that and just hope it all works out for the best and that I'm watching the same kind of football we have now, or better, for the next 20-30 years, with WSU a member of it at the highest level, I wouldn't bet on that without at least thinking about the alternative if I was funding it or advising the funding source.

This is a spot on look at our situation. We need to get our stadium to a spot where it isn't small compared to non Power 5 programs but not so big that it won't be filled on a regular basis. BTW, I like to strike while the iron is hot with Mike Leach but we can't worry about what happens next. Planning for failure is the surest way to ensure that it happens.

 

[Cougatron]

Such as Wulffden?

Wonder what "great coach" Jim Walden will have lined up by then?

There will be no more Wulffdens Walduffs for WSU. Those days are gone, and thankfully we are setup to have an incredible coaching tree to choose from in the future.

The following coaches could all be a future HC of WSU.

James Franklin
Alex Grinch
Eric Morris
Graham Harrell
Seth Litrell
Kiffin Kingsbury
Tony Franklin
Kendall Briles
Dana Holgerson
Steve Spurrier Jr.
Sonny Dykes
Lincoln Riley
Dino Babers
Tracy Claeys
Jim Maestro
Ken Wilson
Roy Manning
Etc. etc. etc.

Obviously some are better candidates than others but they all have connections to WSU directly on indirectly through scheme, working at WSU at some point in time etc.

We are blessed to have such a wide net to cast to find the right person after Leach. In fact I can easily argue that WSU is setup for long term sustainable success better than anytime on our history, and arguably for the first time in our history.

Combined with the Pac 12 revenue (which obviously could/should be more) We now have the capabilties to pay a competitive salary in addition to source candidates from all over the country.

Coach Leach didn’t just change the culture, he didn’t just pull WSU out of the ashes, he gave WSU a more important gift than any draft pick, NCAA record, bowl game win, or quirky soundbite.

He gave us a future that we can build on, and for that I think Mike Leach probably will cement himself as the greatest and most important coach in our history.

He will go down as our Knute Rockne, our Bear Bryant, our Bo Schembechler because what he did was not only turn our program into winners and a national name, but he changed our identity into a program that future generations will look up to and want to be a part of.

If anyone doubts this...

There are kids who are now going into Kindergarden who have never seen WSU have a losing season. Not once in their entire life. They put on fake mustaches and cheered for the Cougs this past year and all they know about WSU is success.

There are kids who have just started high school who haven’t seen WSU have a losing season since they were in elementary.

And there are juniors/seniors in high school that will be making decisions on going to play for a program and have never seen WSU do anything but have winning seasons their entire high school careers.

If Leach sticks around for 5 more years and continues to have the success he has at WSU that will be 10 years of straight winning seasons. 10 years straight of bowl games.

And that is a generational difference in perception. A generation that grows up seeing WSU as a place for success, and a place where you can win.

 

[wazzucougs96]

The idea is to make WSU more like Kansas State. Former bottom-of-conference performer in a disadvantageous location that, by simply pushing through that to get to a higher level of performance with a very good coach, has changed the way the athletic department and school are viewed, with increased donations and the like following suit, allowing better facilities to be put in place, and for it to go from a bad football school to a pretty good one.

Of course, even this example shows how difficult this is ... when Snyder left the first time, the program quickly took a step back. We'll see what happens now.

This is pretty much what Gonzaga has done too. It's taken some time but their other sports are all starting to reap the benefits of them going all in on their basketball program.

 

[PeteTheChop]

It always bugs me when fans of opposing teams knock WSU's stadium size or attendance ... WSU drawing 25,000 actual butts in seats is pretty impressive.

What's even worse is those WSU fans who criticize or mock attendance at Martin Stadium.

They should know better than anybody the litany of facts you've touched upon in this thread.

 

[PeteTheChop]

The following coaches could all be a future HC of WSU.
... Lincoln Riley ...

That would be an awesome fit at WSU.

Riley is an offensive genius and QB whisperer along the lines of CML

 

[PeteTheChop]

On top of that, M-I-Coug was fired as a moderator here.

Can a volunteer be fired?

Need to know before I sign up to work at the homeless shelter on Easter weekend.

 

[95coug]

That would be an awesome fit at WSU.

Riley is an offensive genius and QB whisperer along the lines of CML

Only way Lincoln Riley leaves Oklahoma for WSU is if he first gets hired and fired by an NFL team in between. And then he only stays to see his 3rd season if WSU is a legit NC contender at that point.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Only way Lincoln Riley leaves Oklahoma for WSU is if he first gets hired and fired by an NFL team in between. And then he only stays to see his 3rd season if WSU is a legit NC contender at that point.

And monkeys fly out of my butt. You forgot that part.

So it appears that everyone agrees that WSU needs to build the endzone second deck, and squeeze capacity up to ~40,000. And that is it. That was pretty easy. I believe that, before the "Chun in year 2 and beyond" thread was deleted, I listed that as a year 4-5 expectation, right after the IPF funding/completion and field/stadium naming. Good to see all the WW denizens agreeing on something.

 

[COUGinNCW]

And monkeys fly out of my butt. You forgot that part.

So it appears that everyone agrees that WSU needs to build the endzone second deck, and squeeze capacity up to ~40,000. And that is it. That was pretty easy. I believe that, before the "Chun in year 2 and beyond" thread was deleted, I listed that as a year 4-5 expectation, right after the IPF funding/completion and field/stadium naming. Good to see all the WW denizens agreeing on something.

Tri-Cities Population has grown by almost 100k since 2000. Spokane/CDA population has grown by nearly 350k since the 70s. Thanks to SEL, Pullman has seen significant growth along with an increased student population. All these factors would seem to support an expanded stadium if the program is winning and football is marketed properly.

 

[Coug95man2]

Tri-Cities Population has grown by almost 100k since 2000. Spokane/CDA population has grown by nearly 350k since the 70s. Thanks to SEL, Pullman has seen significant growth along with an increased student population. All these factors would seem to support an expanded stadium if the program is winning and football is marketed properly.

Yeah, but it's also a different time. The ADD/ADHD world has so many other things to do. Video games, movies on your phone, etc. And I don't even include HD/UD screens and the ability to "feel like your there" without dealing with the weather, the drive, etc.

To be clear, I agree with your premise but there are other considerations, as well.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Tri-Cities Population has grown by almost 100k since 2000. Spokane/CDA population has grown by nearly 350k since the 70s. Thanks to SEL, Pullman has seen significant growth along with an increased student population. All these factors would seem to support an expanded stadium if the program is winning and football is marketed properly.

The real question is whether or not our stadium adequately sized for the likely audience out there. The comments above about lodging and infrastructure definitely impacts the number. However, looking at population nearby, a school like Boise State has a football stadium with a capacity around 36,400. About 660,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise according to a population estimating tool that I found. About 975,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise. Here in Kansas, most people who live within that distance drive to the stadium on gameday and then go home the same day. Looking at the ratios of those two numbers, it's reasonable to think that we could support a stadium with 53,500 people. That radius doesn't include all of the tri-cities. When you include a large enough radius to encompass that area (about 120 miles), the population for WSU jumps to 1.277 million people. Because of the true remoteness of Boise, a 120 mile radius circle only captures 767,000 people.

Let's say that Boise State fans are more dedicated and have easier access and, as a result, the population within a 100 mile radius is 25% more likely to attend a game, the ratio would support a stadium size in Pullman of around 42,900. If you expand it to 120 miles, the ratios, it jumps to just over 48,000. Long story short, even factoring in that Boise State fans may be more invested in the Broncos than our fans are, Martin Stadium is significantly undersized based on a comparison with a local peer.

I get the idea that we don't want to overbuild our stadium and that trends are changing. I expect that the days of mega stadiums are done and we are going to see more and more stadiums reducing capacity overall. I don't see a scenario where WSU can really justify getting over 50,000 seats in the stadium. That doesn't mean that we aren't undersized right now.

 

[kougkurt]

The real question is whether or not our stadium adequately sized for the likely audience out there. The comments above about lodging and infrastructure definitely impacts the number. However, looking at population nearby, a school like Boise State has a football stadium with a capacity around 36,400. About 660,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise according to a population estimating tool that I found. About 975,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise. Here in Kansas, most people who live within that distance drive to the stadium on gameday and then go home the same day. Looking at the ratios of those two numbers, it's reasonable to think that we could support a stadium with 53,500 people. That radius doesn't include all of the tri-cities. When you include a large enough radius to encompass that area (about 120 miles), the population for WSU jumps to 1.277 million people. Because of the true remoteness of Boise, a 120 mile radius circle only captures 767,000 people.

Let's say that Boise State fans are more dedicated and have easier access and, as a result, the population within a 100 mile radius is 25% more likely to attend a game, the ratio would support a stadium size in Pullman of around 42,900. If you expand it to 120 miles, the ratios, it jumps to just over 48,000. Long story short, even factoring in that Boise State fans may be more invested in the Broncos than our fans are, Martin Stadium is significantly undersized based on a comparison with a local peer.

I get the idea that we don't want to overbuild our stadium and that trends are changing. I expect that the days of mega stadiums are done and we are going to see more and more stadiums reducing capacity overall. I don't see a scenario where WSU can really justify getting over 50,000 seats in the stadium. That doesn't mean that we aren't undersized right now.

The problem is, Boise alone has a population over 200k

 

[dgibbons]

The problem is, Boise alone has a population over 200k

And stadium size does not equate to paid or actual attendance. Boise State seems to have plenty of empty seats when I see them on TV.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

And stadium size does not equate to paid or actual attendance. Boise State seems to have plenty of empty seats when I see them on TV.

According to their website, they averaged 34,600 last year. So yeah, 2000 empty seats on average and without a doubt, they had paid seats that didn't have a body in them. Even if you want to use the reported ticket sales numbers, it's easy to justify a 40,000 seat stadium in Pullman. For the comment above about 200k in Boise itself, that's true, but WSU has decades of football fans that went to WSU before Boise State even fielded an FBS team. When I gave Boise a 25% bump in the calculation above, we all know that convenience is as much of a factor as anything else in that bump.

 

[YakiCoug]

And stadium size does not equate to paid or actual attendance. Boise State seems to have plenty of empty seats when I see them on TV.

Albertson's Stadium now seats 36,387 but it was just 33,500 prior to 2013. The city's population is now more than 205,000, so I guess people there aren't exactly abandoning their monster truck events for Bronco football.

 

[425cougfan]

The real question is whether or not our stadium adequately sized for the likely audience out there. The comments above about lodging and infrastructure definitely impacts the number. However, looking at population nearby, a school like Boise State has a football stadium with a capacity around 36,400. About 660,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise according to a population estimating tool that I found. About 975,000 people live within 100 miles of Boise. Here in Kansas, most people who live within that distance drive to the stadium on gameday and then go home the same day. Looking at the ratios of those two numbers, it's reasonable to think that we could support a stadium with 53,500 people. That radius doesn't include all of the tri-cities. When you include a large enough radius to encompass that area (about 120 miles), the population for WSU jumps to 1.277 million people. Because of the true remoteness of Boise, a 120 mile radius circle only captures 767,000 people.

Let's say that Boise State fans are more dedicated and have easier access and, as a result, the population within a 100 mile radius is 25% more likely to attend a game, the ratio would support a stadium size in Pullman of around 42,900. If you expand it to 120 miles, the ratios, it jumps to just over 48,000. Long story short, even factoring in that Boise State fans may be more invested in the Broncos than our fans are, Martin Stadium is significantly undersized based on a comparison with a local peer.

I get the idea that we don't want to overbuild our stadium and that trends are changing. I expect that the days of mega stadiums are done and we are going to see more and more stadiums reducing capacity overall. I don't see a scenario where WSU can really justify getting over 50,000 seats in the stadium. That doesn't mean that we aren't undersized right now.

This is some good work and thinking here, but I don't think we can really equate all of those in a 120-mile radius, failing to account for 200,000 or more (as opposed to 25,000) in the actual city itself. It's a lot easier to get local fans with no affiliation to the school to support the team if they live 15 minutes from the stadium than if they're two hours away (or 90 minutes in the case of Spokane). Not only is it just *much* easier from a logistics standpoint, it's much more likely that unaffiliated fans in the city the school is in know alumni, people who work at the school, or otherwise just get caught up in fandom, much like all the t-shirt Gonzaga fans in Spokane who have nothing to do with the school. It's much more likely the local schoolteacher and her husband in Boise will go to Bronco games than it is some schoolteacher in eastern Oregon, Montana, various parts of Idaho, or even Spokane are going to realistically be expected to drive 90-120 minutes to Pullman for games.

Further, as others have mentioned, Boise State has had some attendance issues of its own. Your numbers are correct but there have been articles (I've linked them a few times) discussing the difficulty Boise State has had drawing crowds over the past several years, including parts of Petersen's time and some pretty good football under Harsin, too. Imagine what it will be like if they become a middling MWC team.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Yeah, but it's also a different time. The ADD/ADHD world has so many other things to do. Video games, movies on your phone, etc. And I don't even include HD/UD screens and the ability to "feel like your there" without dealing with the weather, the drive, etc.

To be clear, I agree with your premise but there are other considerations, as well.

Agree with you as well. Non Pullman population in Whitman County is down as well and nightbhames don’t help.