Despite being told repeatedly Joe Dahl was a Leach acquisition, you keep saying he was left on the roster. Nevermind that Wulff was gone before Dahl ever stepped foot on campus.
Depth is pretty important on the Oline and Leach inherited 6! Scholarship OL. Seven if you credit Wulff with Middleton. Rolo inherits 13 plus 5 LOI's which were in before he was hired.
Experience is also important and Rolo inherits six seasons of starts plus two back ups who have played meaningful reps (Greene and Kingston).
Leach invested the necessary scholarships into the OL. It never bit us when a promising recruit didn't pan because there were plenty of others to fill the void. I also think the added competition has gotten more out of everyone because no one gets the job by default.
It is interesting, I am struggling as much with the shifting sand in the discussion as the content. Leach invested way heavier in the oline for several reasons. One, he didn't recruit TE's, which allowed for more spots. Second, Leach was brilliant in how he got kids on campus, and when they weren't Pac 12 players he got them off campus. Old school with Price, Doba and Wulff was if you offered and signed a kid, we aren't like the other schools and find ways to ...what was the word people use to use...."run them". Leach made it very clear their college experience would be much better somewhere else. WSU joined big boy football. Leach has had a ton of attrition along the oline. But his numbers are still solid.
Here is several issues I have with your debate. Not that the oline depth is better, I don't dispute that. Well I dispute it is quality depth because we simply don't know. What I do know is guys like King, Haaenga, Powell, Kuzmac never played a down, so I really don't know and I am not sure anyone knows abut Price, McDonald, Riley etc. But if your argument is the CHANCES someone will emerge simply because of numbers yeah I buy that.
Why wouldn't Wulff get credit for Middleton, he recruited him. And you say there are 17 kids on scholie including class of 2020. Yep, no doubt. There were I believe 13 schiolie kids that Leach inherited including the 2012 class of Flor, Dotson etc,
One, you personally have never as etown had a discussion with me about Dahl. Dahl screwed up, and turned down the only D1 offer given to him because it came later in the recruiting season. Wulff offered him in the fall of 2011. Dahl did something no D2 kids do and turn down the D1 offer. That never happens. And he paid a price for doing so in terms of paying his own way. But that is another story.
Dahl decided before Wulfff was ever terminated he was going to WSU. It was Wulff who was the one who recruited him. I made sure I put my remarks in proper context so people like you wouldn't be offended. i said he was "here" before Leach ever took the job. He was coming to WSU via his won words well before Leach was ever hired. If they kept Wulff for one more year, he still was coming to WSU.
How you would give Leach any credit is beyond me regarding his acquisition. Dahl walked into his office and said he wanted to walk on. Leach didn't know who he was. Leach never made one phone call. Leach gets all the credit for developing him. He had zero to do with acquiring him.
In our discussion, one advantage that I have is 2012 has come and gone. I have historical data, and I fully recognize in 2023 my position could change on this. But to say after knowing Ecklund was a three year start and couldn't get beat out by Leach's recruits, Dahl was a three year starter, Middleton was a three year starter, Goetz started in 2012, plus Forbes, Rodgers and Fullington, he had FIVE players like almost every other year that we knew could play. He is brilliant at keeping his players healthy.
So going back to the original premise, despite having Rodgers, NFL draft, Fullington NFL, MIddleton three year starter, Dahl being around, I will for discussion purposes say 2020 has edge. How big depends on how players like Greene who we really haven't seen yet perform.
WR, clearly the inside receivers have the edge over 2012. But in hindsight, the outside guys in 2012 were very very good. I am also willing to give the wr an edge, just not as big as you.
RB. No contest. But when a kid runs the ball 8 times a game, as Biggs says not being fully utilized
QB- we will no better in 2023. But Tuel did start an NFL game and stuck around for a couple of years, so he wasn't total crap. Halliday held several records while he was here. We have no idea about Cooper or Cruz.
DL, totally disagree with you. Hard to argue Cooper and Long, both had a ceiling high enough for the NFL, Paulo and Pole started, Davis transferred but started for Cal. Again, maybe McDougal starts playing like his press clippings. Maybe Rodgers get right. Taylor too. But on defensive side of the ball it is close to a toss up.
LB- Not seeing the cavernous divide between 2020 and 2012.
Secondary...Simone was on the roster, became an All Pac 12 player, Buchanon,...again, I am not seeing the huge talent gap.
So my statement still holds that there is not a huge difference in 2012 and 2020 with respect to the first 22 players, and thus my expectations are tempered by having a new staff, a 3-6 conference record, breaking in a new system and a new QB.
