Well....another feather in our cap.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/downtown-eugene-in-crisis-consultant-says/
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/downtown-eugene-in-crisis-consultant-says/
Downtown Eugene in crisis....
- Thread starter M-I-Coug
- Start date
Eugene has no need to fear, it is probably just a lay over, on their way to Emerald City.
Portland & Salem are full of bums too. Oregon has incentivized laziness, and they're paying for it.
Add Vancouver and Spokane to the list of cities with homeless problems. My wife and I were appalled in Spokane this fall. It's dirty and we saw vagrants urinating on the street. We won't stay there next year on any game weekends. At The BSU game last September we saw a clean and beautiful city. Very thankful to be living living in a clean suburban city close to Phoenix.
This is every town. Even those of you that think they don't have this problem… have this problem. I know of a major West coast town that has leased out an empty warehouse and have shipped the homeless into that building so they aren't as visible. Also, they can then label them "housed" because they have a roof over their heads… It's political re-defining at it's worst.
OT warning: While I'd hope homelessness wasn't so political, it is. And below, because I have a pretty intimate knowledge of this issue, I will give my detailed, .02 worth, with my ranting maybe .05 worth. lol. I'm not trying to flame anyone, not trying to start a political fight. But below are sub-topics within the homeless conversation I think everyone could agree on. So read on, if you dare.
"Lazy"… you've stepped into something SC…
SC, I get what you're saying. There are those that take advantage of the system, no question. There are people that have such low self-esteem that they'd rather live in bad environments than work hard and have a better life. And I'll withhold judgement of those for this discussion, but make no mistake… they aren't the majority, by ANY stretch. So don't paint with too broad a brush, there.
And if I might be so bold, I assume by your many previous political statements that you lean to the right. So I'll go there… The number of mentally ill VETS on the streets is amazing. Much of the right and left politically can stand together on the fact we should be taking care of these people, right? The VA system is the worst it's been in decades. It's sad, it horrid and if you are going to segregate those that are in need in general vs. the vets, know that pretty much 33% or higher of every homeless person you see on the street is a vet. That is obviously dependent on the town you are in. Some are as high as 50%. So every other person you see on the street?… A vet. They need your help. But they aren't "lazy".
THEN realize how much our society has completely dropped the ball on mental services, in general. Mentally ill, those that didn't CHOOSE anything, is incredible. Not vets, just people that are ill. They are not "lazy". While the 1970's mental institutes had SEVERE issues (One flew over the Cuckoo's nest" kind of issues) we as a society have yet to fix that issue. They are now on the streets and have been for decades.
THEN realize, we've created so many of these issues, as a society in general. I know of a kid that ran away and has been homeless for several years. He CHOOSE it... given. Why, you might ask? His father decided that the last time he ran away (drug dealing in the home and he wanted to get away from it) and he came home because… well… it's "home", the father punished the boy by heating up the burner on the oven, then wrestled him on it and burned the boys ass with 3rd degree burns on the oven. You know… just punishing the kid for bad behavior… Gotta say, that boy is gonna choose homelessness from this point on, don't you think. This story isn't unique. So many kids know what's right and wrong. They run away to get away from stuff at home. Then they are homeless, they get involved in bad juju or maybe they don't. But our social culture, in so many areas, is… lacking. Homelessness is a better option than home. Think of THAT one… And how does that boy grow up to be the "pillar of society", the "you just gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps" kinda person with that much hate spewed at him by his own father? He doesn't. And he's not lazy. But it's generations of this. He doesn't think he could have better. He's actually vilified the "rich" and been taught that mentality. "He's real because he's poor." It's a cycle but it isn't laziness. And don't think the CA (children's admin) is spotless in this issue of homeless children. The foster care system is abhorrent! The statistical numbers that show the number of homeless people that have gone through the foster care system is INSANE.
So if we would focus on the Vets and specifically the VA.
So if we could focus on the mentally ill (which dovetails with the vets).
If we could just focus on the kids, so the cycle of homelessness could be curbed…
We focus on those things that I think, if they were honest, both sides of the political spectrum would agree on… the homelessness issue would be cut by well over half. WELL over half. They are NOT taking advantage of the system, they are NOT choosing any of it. This has NOTHING to do with personal accountability, a stance many on the right bring up with this issue. But make no mistake, we gotta have money to do all of that, too. And our economy is for shit. But none of the above has anything to do with "laziness" SC.
And yes… I lean right, politically, as well. I just know this topic fairly well. Rant over.
OT warning: While I'd hope homelessness wasn't so political, it is. And below, because I have a pretty intimate knowledge of this issue, I will give my detailed, .02 worth, with my ranting maybe .05 worth. lol. I'm not trying to flame anyone, not trying to start a political fight. But below are sub-topics within the homeless conversation I think everyone could agree on. So read on, if you dare.
"Lazy"… you've stepped into something SC…
SC, I get what you're saying. There are those that take advantage of the system, no question. There are people that have such low self-esteem that they'd rather live in bad environments than work hard and have a better life. And I'll withhold judgement of those for this discussion, but make no mistake… they aren't the majority, by ANY stretch. So don't paint with too broad a brush, there.
And if I might be so bold, I assume by your many previous political statements that you lean to the right. So I'll go there… The number of mentally ill VETS on the streets is amazing. Much of the right and left politically can stand together on the fact we should be taking care of these people, right? The VA system is the worst it's been in decades. It's sad, it horrid and if you are going to segregate those that are in need in general vs. the vets, know that pretty much 33% or higher of every homeless person you see on the street is a vet. That is obviously dependent on the town you are in. Some are as high as 50%. So every other person you see on the street?… A vet. They need your help. But they aren't "lazy".
THEN realize how much our society has completely dropped the ball on mental services, in general. Mentally ill, those that didn't CHOOSE anything, is incredible. Not vets, just people that are ill. They are not "lazy". While the 1970's mental institutes had SEVERE issues (One flew over the Cuckoo's nest" kind of issues) we as a society have yet to fix that issue. They are now on the streets and have been for decades.
THEN realize, we've created so many of these issues, as a society in general. I know of a kid that ran away and has been homeless for several years. He CHOOSE it... given. Why, you might ask? His father decided that the last time he ran away (drug dealing in the home and he wanted to get away from it) and he came home because… well… it's "home", the father punished the boy by heating up the burner on the oven, then wrestled him on it and burned the boys ass with 3rd degree burns on the oven. You know… just punishing the kid for bad behavior… Gotta say, that boy is gonna choose homelessness from this point on, don't you think. This story isn't unique. So many kids know what's right and wrong. They run away to get away from stuff at home. Then they are homeless, they get involved in bad juju or maybe they don't. But our social culture, in so many areas, is… lacking. Homelessness is a better option than home. Think of THAT one… And how does that boy grow up to be the "pillar of society", the "you just gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps" kinda person with that much hate spewed at him by his own father? He doesn't. And he's not lazy. But it's generations of this. He doesn't think he could have better. He's actually vilified the "rich" and been taught that mentality. "He's real because he's poor." It's a cycle but it isn't laziness. And don't think the CA (children's admin) is spotless in this issue of homeless children. The foster care system is abhorrent! The statistical numbers that show the number of homeless people that have gone through the foster care system is INSANE.
So if we would focus on the Vets and specifically the VA.
So if we could focus on the mentally ill (which dovetails with the vets).
If we could just focus on the kids, so the cycle of homelessness could be curbed…
We focus on those things that I think, if they were honest, both sides of the political spectrum would agree on… the homelessness issue would be cut by well over half. WELL over half. They are NOT taking advantage of the system, they are NOT choosing any of it. This has NOTHING to do with personal accountability, a stance many on the right bring up with this issue. But make no mistake, we gotta have money to do all of that, too. And our economy is for shit. But none of the above has anything to do with "laziness" SC.
And yes… I lean right, politically, as well. I just know this topic fairly well. Rant over.
Sorry, I didn't read your whole post. I see these guys all the time, and Oregon HAS incentivized laziness. People don't like to hear that but it's true. Please don't try and quote stats, as I am more than familiar with them. But put plainly, there is simply NO reason for many Oregonians to work. Why should they? The state takes care of them, and on the private side, stupid and misguided people (who I guess think they're assuaging their liberal guilt) give them money hand over fist. They stand on street corner after street corner, with made up phony signs. Hell, if one HALF of all the bums who actually were vets who claimed to be, we would have had a 100 million man standing army. They have absolutely no reason to work. None. They work the system and they know there are those (like many reading this) who will just keep handing out cash, enabling them. Your well-meaning wishes are just that: the dreams and fantasies of nice folks who think that all humans are basically good folks, and if they're not....well, they must be "ill." Baloney. You want them to stop hanging around. Stop giving them money. Then you'd be amazed at how quickly they would "recover."
It seems you are well entrenched in your thought process. And I won't push too hard on this. I respect everyones perspective, unless just blatantly wrong and ill. Suffice it to say, SC, I'm very much involved with the homeless. More that you realize. So I know the numbers. Not some emotional outburst on my part, not some "feelings" I have. I'm fact based, always have. And the 3 segments of the homeless population that I outlined above should be able to cross the aisle AND solve a major portion of the issue.
I'm only going to counter with this... what you are saying and seeing is all about perception. How large of the homeless population are those standing on the corner, do you think? Those that don't want to get away from homelessness, are out there, many are those that panhandle. By most numbers/stats, about 10% of the homeless population will always remain homeless. It's their choice, to a certain extent. Some are just so ill, they'll never have 4 walls around them. Just freaks 'em out. Others just don't wanna. Others are lazy, no doubt. Others have other reasons. But these are the ones you're talking about, the 10%. But there's a boat load that aren't seen, aren't panhandling. Those are the ones we need to solve. I know I ranted pretty hard above. I'd hope you'd read it, sometime when you have the time.
But to those still reading… Most, if not all, non-profits that deal with the homeless, would agree with SC on one point… Don't give panhandlers money. That does not help them.
Bingo. There might be some vets but there are a helluva lot more people claiming such just to get handouts so they can be lazy. Giving these people money is enabling them, when they need to get off their asses and get a job.
Two words. Heroin epidemic.
Everywhere. Every state, every city. CBS's 60 Minutes produced and aired a wake up call segment about 18 months ago. It's everywhere. Root cause.
In King County...."Smash and Grabs" (vehicle glass break ins) are up 70% within this past year. I don't call that laziness. I call it addiction.
Everywhere. Every state, every city. CBS's 60 Minutes produced and aired a wake up call segment about 18 months ago. It's everywhere. Root cause.
In King County...."Smash and Grabs" (vehicle glass break ins) are up 70% within this past year. I don't call that laziness. I call it addiction.
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it's hard not to notice the absence any evidence (statistical or otherwise) in defense of this claim.
95 has mostly presented anecdotal evidence, but it is coming from a place of significant personal experience and his argument is framed as such.
i personally don't know what conclusions are supported by the available evidence (which is why i'm not commenting on the issue at hand), but, as a former teacher, i find the increasing prevalence of this kind of "i feel this way about it and therefore it's true" argumentation disheartening to say the least.
I guess you could argue that the heroin epidemic is not in fact the root cause, but a result of more fundamental psychological/spiritual/emotional issues. Identifying those would get to us to the real root cause.
The drug use is a result of the cause.
It's all sad too.
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Wrote this then decided not to post. But Brett, this is too important to me. So... I'm not going to touch the general "Go get a job" concept or "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, son!" But know, there are so many flaws in that idea.
Below are some numbers I've gathered for you all, with some explanation. It's long (sorry) but it gives numbers and explanations. Hope you all have the patience to read it all. And to be clear, I'll leave this topic alone after this, unless specifically addressed. I know I've stretched my welcome on this.
First: There are compelling studies showing that this is still a reflection of the Recession. People got caught, went to their extended family and "couch surfed". Looked for jobs but there weren't any. It was, after all, a Recession. Family got tired of them and kicked 'em out, so they went to friends, bouncing around (averaged 3 homes they'd bounce between) until their welcome was worn away. Where do they go after that? Streets. So good numbers show we are still dealing with the Recession. Which is amazing. The days of "crazy uncle Joe" living with the family are gone. Think of "It's a Wonderful Life" and the crazy Uncle that lost the money. Remember? In today's world, we kick him out. Which also explains why the face of homelessness has changed so drastically, so quickly. Like what I outline below.
-FAMILIES. Oregon has over 13,000 homeless families. Washington has 20,800. Family means a man, woman and at least one child. Oregon has the highest percentage of population of families NOT in a shelter, within the entire United States. Almost 60% of homeless families in Oregon live in cars, couch surf with friends, tents, etc. etc. But they choose to not utilize shelters because they don't want to split up. See, there are very few family or "mixed" shelters. So instead of Dad going to the men's shelter, Mom going to the women's shelter on the other side of town, they stay together. There is reasons for not having family or "mixed" shelters but that would just make this post longer. Can't argue with a family wanting to stay together, though.
-The number of homeless, single women has grown almost as much as the family numbers. These aren't the hookers, these are grandma's that are helping raise their grandkids (40 or older), have health problems that the 1990 savings account didn't account for. Or maybe spouse ran away, emptying the bank accounts, leaving them with nothing, etc. etc. Over 50% of all homeless are over the age of 50. Grandma/grandpa having to take care of the millennial's children that got addicted. But can't handle the finances (wasn't in their portfolio plan to raise another set of kids) but are unwilling to let their grandchildren hit the streets alone. I know in Spokane Area, they are turning away roughly 15 women each night for a specific shelter there. ONE shelter. It shelters 45 each night. This doesn't even scratch the surface of their issue. Women are particularly victimized in the homeless world for obvious reasons. Seattle is roughly 5 times that. Shelters 200 women and they are turning them away. No room. Single. women. Because they are either "owned", pimped, scared, hiding, etc. numbers are very hard to come by. Just know nightly, there isn't a city that doesn't turn the homeless women out to the streets due to lack of room.
-KIDS. Just in Spokane, there are basic numbers that show there are well over 300 homeless kids. KIDS under 17. Being homeless is better than being at home. Think the kid who's father burned his ass on the oven burner x300. Seattle: roughly 4000 homeless kids. Portland, percentage-wise, is worse. Oregon School districts (which is slightly flawed numbers IMHO but it gives you an indication) report having "served" 20,400 homeless children. This could have some bleedover from the "family" category, FYI. I'd guess somewhere around 10,000. Also realize, at 18, kids "age out" of the foster care system. If they don't have a job that can sufficiently pay rent, pay bills, etc., they almost automatically hit the streets IF they are willing to stay in the system for that long. And so a kid has to make a choice at some point in high school. Get a job that will support them (full time job) but that means quit high school. Or stay in school but not have a job that will support him/her. Either way... they are screwed. And homeless. SO SC... there are enough homeless kids in WA and OR... just kids... to fill my hometown and then overflow it. There's a thought. It's population is a bit over 10K. We could have entire towns of homeless kids.
-VETS. The sub-category that truly hits me and is "near-and-dear" to me. NO excuse to not be taking care of our soldiers in any and every way we can. It is, in my opinion, the one thing both political sides can EASILY agree on. Federally, we should be taking care of every soldier. Nationally the numbers are estimated to be 1.5 million Vets were or are currently homeless. And that number is better than it's been in the past. But still 1.5 million vets... Why though, are there that many? Lets avoid the mentally ill portion, since it seems some here don't think PTSD happens. Won't get in depth on our AWESOME VA system, either...
Think of the recruiting process. "Don't want to go to college? Have a bad home and wanna get out? Come join!" Which is great. They serve and do well. But then leaving, a percentage get lost. If you don't have family structure going into the service, you don't have one coming out of the service (again, remember the burned kid). And family and support structure counts for a lot. Armed services rely on it, while in. They also say 1.4 million are "at risk" of becoming homeless. These are vets that have never been homeless but are in bad shape. So roughly 3 million Vets are, were, or are in danger of becoming homeless. But all of them are well below the poverty line. Now realize, there are 20 vets a day, that take their lives (not the 22 that gets so much press). 70% of these suicidal vets were NOT utilizing the VA... because the VA sucks!!! So they sink further. Many/most of these suicidals are homeless or in danger of being homeless. So to SC and 90... you are right about the guy on the corner lying about being a vet. Because odds are, if he was a vet, he would have killed himself. Semper Fidelis, ladies and gentlemen.So everyone... My point in this post is... Don't look at the dirty nasty guy on the corner as the face of homelessness (but again your making assumptions he isn't a vet). That concept has changed drastically in the past decade. It's old and antiquated and not accurate. While that guy might want some help or not (they are the lightning rod on this topic, I get it), those aren't the people that fill the homeless shelters as much as you think. But I'll still say this... don't want to help the nasty dude? Ask yourself why you don't want to help... Helping in the soup kitchen(s) never hurts anyone, right? And not just at Christmas. Donate to the local Red Cross, VOA, Goodwill, Catholic Charities, whatever. Some are as liberal, some are as conservative as you'd like them to be. Help the one that fits you best. But is it really any skin off YOUR nose?
your last couple paragraphs made me think of this organization:Wrote this then decided not to post. But Brett, this is too important to me. So... I'm not going to touch the general "Go get a job" concept or "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, son!" But know, there are so many flaws in that idea.
Below are some numbers I've gathered for you all, with some explanation. It's long (sorry) but it gives numbers and explanations. Hope you all have the patience to read it all. And to be clear, I'll leave this topic alone after this, unless specifically addressed. I know I've stretched my welcome on this.
First: There are compelling studies showing that this is still a reflection of the Recession. People got caught, went to their extended family and "couch surfed". Looked for jobs but there weren't any. It was, after all, a Recession. Family got tired of them and kicked 'em out, so they went to friends, bouncing around (averaged 3 homes they'd bounce between) until their welcome was worn away. Where do they go after that? Streets. So good numbers show we are still dealing with the Recession. Which is amazing. The days of "crazy uncle Joe" living with the family are gone. Think of "It's a Wonderful Life" and the crazy Uncle that lost the money. Remember? In today's world, we kick him out. Which also explains why the face of homelessness has changed so drastically, so quickly. Like what I outline below.
-FAMILIES. Oregon has over 13,000 homeless families. Washington has 20,800. Family means a man, woman and at least one child. Oregon has the highest percentage of population of families NOT in a shelter, within the entire United States. Almost 60% of homeless families in Oregon live in cars, couch surf with friends, tents, etc. etc. But they choose to not utilize shelters because they don't want to split up. See, there are very few family or "mixed" shelters. So instead of Dad going to the men's shelter, Mom going to the women's shelter on the other side of town, they stay together. There is reasons for not having family or "mixed" shelters but that would just make this post longer. Can't argue with a family wanting to stay together, though.
-The number of homeless, single women has grown almost as much as the family numbers. These aren't the hookers, these are grandma's that are helping raise their grandkids (40 or older), have health problems that the 1990 savings account didn't account for. Or maybe spouse ran away, emptying the bank accounts, leaving them with nothing, etc. etc. Over 50% of all homeless are over the age of 50. Grandma/grandpa having to take care of the millennial's children that got addicted. But can't handle the finances (wasn't in their portfolio plan to raise another set of kids) but are unwilling to let their grandchildren hit the streets alone. I know in Spokane Area, they are turning away roughly 15 women each night for a specific shelter there. ONE shelter. It shelters 45 each night. This doesn't even scratch the surface of their issue. Women are particularly victimized in the homeless world for obvious reasons. Seattle is roughly 5 times that. Shelters 200 women and they are turning them away. No room. Single. women. Because they are either "owned", pimped, scared, hiding, etc. numbers are very hard to come by. Just know nightly, there isn't a city that doesn't turn the homeless women out to the streets due to lack of room.
-KIDS. Just in Spokane, there are basic numbers that show there are well over 300 homeless kids. KIDS under 17. Being homeless is better than being at home. Think the kid who's father burned his ass on the oven burner x300. Seattle: roughly 4000 homeless kids. Portland, percentage-wise, is worse. Oregon School districts (which is slightly flawed numbers IMHO but it gives you an indication) report having "served" 20,400 homeless children. This could have some bleedover from the "family" category, FYI. I'd guess somewhere around 10,000. Also realize, at 18, kids "age out" of the foster care system. If they don't have a job that can sufficiently pay rent, pay bills, etc., they almost automatically hit the streets IF they are willing to stay in the system for that long. And so a kid has to make a choice at some point in high school. Get a job that will support them (full time job) but that means quit high school. Or stay in school but not have a job that will support him/her. Either way... they are screwed. And homeless. SO SC... there are enough homeless kids in WA and OR... just kids... to fill my hometown and then overflow it. There's a thought. It's population is a bit over 10K. We could have entire towns of homeless kids.
-VETS. The sub-category that truly hits me and is "near-and-dear" to me. NO excuse to not be taking care of our soldiers in any and every way we can. It is, in my opinion, the one thing both political sides can EASILY agree on. Federally, we should be taking care of every soldier. Nationally the numbers are estimated to be 1.5 million Vets were or are currently homeless. And that number is better than it's been in the past. But still 1.5 million vets... Why though, are there that many? Lets avoid the mentally ill portion, since it seems some here don't think PTSD happens. Won't get in depth on our AWESOME VA system, either...
So everyone... My point in this post is... Don't look at the dirty nasty guy on the corner as the face of homelessness (but again your making assumptions he isn't a vet). That concept has changed drastically in the past decade. It's old and antiquated and not accurate. While that guy might want some help or not (they are the lightning rod on this topic, I get it), those aren't the people that fill the homeless shelters as much as you think. But I'll still say this... don't want to help the nasty dude? Ask yourself why you don't want to help... Helping in the soup kitchen(s) never hurts anyone, right? And not just at Christmas. Donate to the local Red Cross, VOA, Goodwill, Catholic Charities, whatever. Some are as liberal, some are as conservative as you'd like them to be. Help the one that fits you best. But is it really any skin off YOUR nose?
http://justiceforvets.org/
this is a group that's working to establish something called veteran's treatment courts as a kind of subset of the criminal justice system. it's basically designed to more or less do what you're advocating here: provide help/treatment/council to vets who find themselves in trouble w/ the law (usually drugs). the whole idea is that vets are (a) often dealing w/ unique issues that the rest of us usually don't see, and (b) that, as you say, we owe it to them to do our best to help them find a workable solution (which the general criminal justice system is not always too good at).
the thing that i remember being struck by when i heard about it is that it's not some bleeding heart enabler-fest. it's really about providing support and guidance so troubled vets can take responsibility for their actions, and improve their lives.
frankly, it's the way the rest of the justice system should work, but one thing at a time i guess.
Drugs are everywhere. But why do towns and cities have to look like dumps ? Washington and Oregon have more dirty cities and more homeless problems than I see in Idaho, Arizona, Texas.
The reason? Jobs. Two words. Jeff Bezos. And all the other major employers bringing in thousands of people, (from out of state) each month.
There was this great story about a mayor of a town in New Mexico I think, that basically to solve the homeless problem he had a van drive around and offer to pick them up for the day where they would go around and pick up trash / paint buildings , cut grass, clean up graffiti. You know basically just city maintenance stuff.
They were paid a decent days wage, given a full lunch, and then after 8 hours or whatever he would drop them off and tell them where to be tomorrow to do it again.
It actually worked.
"932 jobs clearing 69,601 pounds of litter and weeds from 196 city blocks. And more than 100 people have been connected to permanent employment."
Honestly I think it's the solution. Give the people a job making the community better and they have pride and self respect to be working, and the city is better as well.
Everybody wins.
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I imagine the public sector unions would take exception to something like this in Wa.
Not only that, I'd wonder where the city sent the W-2 forms… Or Social Security exemptions… While a great sentiment, the legality of this example is exceptionally over the edge. Hence a great example of how a homeless person can't "just get a job". It today's world, with the legal and union issues, help for the homeless is virtually required to "just get a job".
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