If Mason clocked a 4.4 today during pro-day

[CougEd]

Not sure why not?

If you have an elite offense, like Oregon for example, they are scoring 30 plus on Washington and Utah, and USC.

What would you rather have....a team that gains 300 yards in every game but scores 32 points in every game, or have a team gaining 500 yards and scores 17, 13, 17, 24?

Yes, this offense struggles against teams that have good defenses. Were they dominate defenses? I am not sure you could say that about anyone but maybe Stanford, and they had a hole or two.

But to lead the nation in passing and finishing 7th in your own conference in scoring with what you have as an elite QB, and you have what you have what we had on defense and special teams, that is a scary proposition.

The good news is Mannion, Hundley, Kelly, Marriota are all gone. UW has a crisis at QB. ASU I think has a very good QB coming back. CU's QB is getting better, Utah is Utah. Arizona's QB had a career day against us and looked very regular down the stretch. So I would expect scoring to be done in 2015. But where we finish in scoring will be important in 2015 if we plan on going bowling.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

Originally posted by CougEd:


program for a year or two, and that is a basis of a discussion, I think those numbers tend to lie at this point. for discussion sake lets say the 2012 class was the number 28 class in the country. I will say that is a fair number considering the athletes we attracted.

Now we have had a chance to see them play. Here are some startling numbers. Apodoca, Caldwell, Davey, Dotson, Villarubia, Ewing, Jackson, Mitchell, Pettaway and dockery are no longer with the team. Out of that class, it took Allison 2.25 years to find a spot and we now have him for just one more year. Who are the contributors from that class? Allison and BArber has played limited minutes.

From 2014 Brown, Bruggman, Meyer, Sterling, Lepua, Failou are gone. In that class, Brown is the only one on that list that saw playing time.

Attrition is still taking place, so it is hard to argue with what Socal is saying, despite what we think the rankings are.

When you say we are getting players we haven't had in 10 years, it depends what is your criteria. Wulff for example will have more recruits on an NFL squad in his four years than Doba every recruited. Wulff had the first -first round draft pick since Trufant. Long, Wilson, Tuel and Fullington all got paid in the NFL. Cooper is the next kid to get drafted, and people are talking Jake Rodgers may go in the 6th round.

It can be easily argued too many holes, which I am willing to accept. But the look of the first two classes in Leach's tenure some of those holes will continue to be a problem with the attrition we have seen. And I like Socal hope these players turn the corner and fill the holes that keep us from having a winning season. But where I once believed it was certainty Leach would have the most successful run in WSU history, I now hope that is the case.

Take a mulligan. First, your assumption that the 2012 class could be ranked 28th (or whatever you're trying to say) is nonsense. That class was put together in 10 weeks. Second, Brown was not in the 2014 class. Third, Failou was not in the 2014 class, and he's gone because his eligibility is exhausted and he played as a backup. Fourth, Gabe Marks is a contributor from the 2012 class, so is/was Palacio, Bowlin, Gauta (you know, the guy you've said Leach didn't replace), Bartolone (you know the guy that you credited for getting the offense running), Vaeao and Middleton (more starters from that class).

There is attrition in every recruiting class, every year, at every school, and there always will be. The point about attrition is that you can't have too much of it. Wulff's classes were train wrecks, even if a handful of players went on to the NFL. If you're going to count every guy that was one Wulff's magic eye for talent recruits that had a cup of coffee in the NFL, do the same for Doba.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: Not sure why not?

Originally posted by CougEd:
If you have an elite offense, like Oregon for example, they are scoring 30 plus on Washington and Utah, and USC.

What would you rather have....a team that gains 300 yards in every game but scores 32 points in every game, or have a team gaining 500 yards and scores 17, 13, 17, 24?

Yes, this offense struggles against teams that have good defenses. Were they dominate defenses? I am not sure you could say that about anyone but maybe Stanford, and they had a hole or two.

But to lead the nation in passing and finishing 7th in your own conference in scoring with what you have as an elite QB, and you have what you have what we had on defense and special teams, that is a scary proposition.

The good news is Mannion, Hundley, Kelly, Marriota are all gone. UW has a crisis at QB. ASU I think has a very good QB coming back. CU's QB is getting better, Utah is Utah. Arizona's QB had a career day against us and looked very regular down the stretch. So I would expect scoring to be done in 2015. But where we finish in scoring will be important in 2015 if we plan on going bowling.

Straw man Ed strikes again. Even Utah's turd of an offense put up more than 300 yards per game. And of course, you're ignoring that Utah's defense and special teams scored a lot of points, and set the table for it's terrible offense to score.

Halliday was not an elite QB. A very good college QB that may get drafted, but not elite. Again, you may have noticed that a redshirt freshman QB (IRON LAWS ALERT!) was the starter when the offense scored 39 in Corvalis.

 

[CougPatrol]

Originally posted by dgibbons:

The failure to capitalize on the best run in school history was an epic and systemic $hitting of the bed. V. Lane Rawlins liked to golf, so WSU built a golf course. How 'bout the return of investment on that. Pure genius move. Meanwhile Jimbo Sterk was able to get the students to approve a bond for new crappers and concessions at Martin....

No question about it. Bill Doba shouldn't be (can't be) singled out for this, but when people continually lament Paul Wulff for "ruining" Cougar football, I have to take them back to the root cause of our current situation.

I don't think Moos is perfect by any means, but had he and Floyd been calling the shots in 2002, we would be in an entirely different place today. Price would have been offered one of the highest salaries in the Pac-10 after leading us to our 2nd Rose Bowl. Would he have taken it? Maybe not, but if he hadn't, we would have at least begun the process of reinvesting in our athletic facilities at a time when our fan base was most excited about the program. It's still likely that Doba would have been promoted by Moos and Floyd to succeed Price, but after 2007, Moos would have spent serious coin on the next coach.

Wulfff was the ultimate cheap out hire. WSU got exactly what they paid for. Added insult to injury for me is that in the process of Wulff driving the program deeper into oblivion, the reputation of a former Cougar player will now live in infamy among our fan base.

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

You spark an interesting concept that I think once I start doing a little homework, you'll find isn't confined to WSU. If I find the time, I'll look into an elite school (Florida State, Alabama, LSU or something to that affect) and look up the kind of attrition they have to see how special those numbers are. I can tell you right now, Ed, your concept isn't focused solely on poor, little 'ol WSU. Everyone has attrition. Only at Alabama, it's a 5star QB that didn't pan out, or a DB that decided to quit or whatever. So what does Alabama do? They replace the dude. What does WSU do when a 3star DB doesn't pan out? We replace him… Are you saying we are any different than any other school, I ask prior to getting knee deep into numbers from other programs? I want some parameters to your point… Are you saying we have more drop-outs than any other program? Is it just during the transition of a new coach or are you saying it's systemic? Clarify your point so my investigation can go exactly to your point.

Regardless of the above rabbit trail that Ed is going down, my only point is, regardless of anything else, was that our recruiting has picked up. Evidence is the average star ranking, per class. The average star ranking has gone up. We are picking up more sought after players. The difference between 2.5 and 2.7 may seem slim but that's not the case. That's marked improvement. Talk all you want about burn outs, bums, quitters or anything else… That's crystal ball stuff once you get them "in house" and you can't foretell that one… unless… Ed…. can you?!

 

[CougEd]

It has never been confined to WSU...who said it was?


You have 10 kids who never and will never play a down from that class. Out of 27 kids, 14 are gone. You have Allison, Lewis (a little) Middleton, Barber (limited) and Vaeo who really contributed in 2014. Flor played sparingly, Buchanon not at all. And the most glaring weakness at CB they missed, or they probably go bowling two years in a row.

But after seeing what we have to claim class one is an indication we are improving because of the star rating I think is a bit misleading. Do you realize the "star players" have yet to unseat two walkons on the oline? And to think a walkon without the rating might be our best QB. Again, maybe me, but stars mean squat once they have made it on the field, and class one would have to give a c at the very best.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: It has never been confined to WSU...who said it was?

Originally posted by CougEd:

You have 10 kids who never and will never play a down from that class. Out of 27 kids, 14 are gone. You have Allison, Lewis (a little) Middleton, Barber (limited) and Vaeo who really contributed in 2014. Flor played sparingly, Buchanon not at all. And the most glaring weakness at CB they missed, or they probably go bowling two years in a row.

But after seeing what we have to claim class one is an indication we are improving because of the star rating I think is a bit misleading. Do you realize the "star players" have yet to unseat two walkons on the oline? And to think a walkon without the rating might be our best QB. Again, maybe me, but stars mean squat once they have made it on the field, and class one would have to give a c at the very best.

JC guys that have completed their eligibility are not "attrition." They played as much as they could play at WSU. Ten guys out of the 2012 class washed out or never made it to campus. That's not exactly wonderful, but much better than your inaccurate count of 14. You can live with 10 guys washing out per class. You can't live with the Wulffian 15+.

 

[spongebob11]

Re: Not sure why not?

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Again, you may have noticed that a redshirt freshman QB (IRON LAWS ALERT!) was the starter when the offense scored 39 in Corvalis.

Wait...you were just whining yesterday about how our 32 ppg was partly due to our starter missing 3 games.

Can't have it both ways. Way to be consistent.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: Not sure why not?

Originally posted by spongebob11:

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Again, you may have noticed that a redshirt freshman QB (IRON LAWS ALERT!) was the starter when the offense scored 39 in Corvalis.

Wait...you were just whining yesterday about how our 32 ppg was partly due to our starter missing 3 games.

Can't have it both ways. Way to be consistent.

The Consistency Crusade continues!

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

Originally posted by CougEd:

program for a year or two, and that is a basis of a discussion, I think those numbers tend to lie at this point. for discussion sake lets say the 2012 class was the number 28 class in the country. I will say that is a fair number considering the athletes we attracted.

Now we have had a chance to see them play. Here are some startling numbers. Apodoca, Caldwell, Davey, Dotson, Villarubia, Ewing, Jackson, Mitchell, Pettaway and dockery are no longer with the team. Out of that class, it took Allison 2.25 years to find a spot and we now have him for just one more year. Who are the contributors from that class? Allison and BArber has played limited minutes.

From 2014 Brown, Bruggman, Meyer, Sterling, Lepua, Failou are gone. In that class, Brown is the only one on that list that saw playing time.

Attrition is still taking place, so it is hard to argue with what Socal is saying, despite what we think the rankings are.

When you say we are getting players we haven't had in 10 years, it depends what is your criteria. Wulff for example will have more recruits on an NFL squad in his four years than Doba every recruited. Wulff had the first -first round draft pick since Trufant. Long, Wilson, Tuel and Fullington all got paid in the NFL. Cooper is the next kid to get drafted, and people are talking Jake Rodgers may go in the 6th round.

It can be easily argued too many holes, which I am willing to accept. But the look of the first two classes in Leach's tenure some of those holes will continue to be a problem with the attrition we have seen. And I like Socal hope these players turn the corner and fill the holes that keep us from having a winning season. But where I once believed it was certainty Leach would have the most successful run in WSU history, I now hope that is the case.

You sure about that?

Doba recruited Ivory, Gibson, Bumpus, Jerome Harrison, Brackenridge, Jed Collins, Husain Abdullah, Ropati, Brink & Jason Hill.

Wulff had Long, Tuel, Cooper, Marquess, Bucannon, (maybe) Halliday, Fullington & (maybe) Rodgers.

I think I'd take Doba's group over Wulff's.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by CougEd:


program for a year or two, and that is a basis of a discussion, I think those numbers tend to lie at this point. for discussion sake lets say the 2012 class was the number 28 class in the country. I will say that is a fair number considering the athletes we attracted.

Now we have had a chance to see them play. Here are some startling numbers. Apodoca, Caldwell, Davey, Dotson, Villarubia, Ewing, Jackson, Mitchell, Pettaway and dockery are no longer with the team. Out of that class, it took Allison 2.25 years to find a spot and we now have him for just one more year. Who are the contributors from that class? Allison and BArber has played limited minutes.

From 2014 Brown, Bruggman, Meyer, Sterling, Lepua, Failou are gone. In that class, Brown is the only one on that list that saw playing time.

Attrition is still taking place, so it is hard to argue with what Socal is saying, despite what we think the rankings are.

When you say we are getting players we haven't had in 10 years, it depends what is your criteria. Wulff for example will have more recruits on an NFL squad in his four years than Doba every recruited. Wulff had the first -first round draft pick since Trufant. Long, Wilson, Tuel and Fullington all got paid in the NFL. Cooper is the next kid to get drafted, and people are talking Jake Rodgers may go in the 6th round.

It can be easily argued too many holes, which I am willing to accept. But the look of the first two classes in Leach's tenure some of those holes will continue to be a problem with the attrition we have seen. And I like Socal hope these players turn the corner and fill the holes that keep us from having a winning season. But where I once believed it was certainty Leach would have the most successful run in WSU history, I now hope that is the case.

You sure about that?

Doba recruited Ivory, Gibson, Bumpus, Jerome Harrison, Brackenridge, Jed Collins, Husain Abdullah, Ropati, Brink & Jason Hill.

Wulff had Long, Tuel, Cooper, Marquess, Bucannon, (maybe) Halliday, Fullington & (maybe) Rodgers.

I think I'd take Doba's group over Wulff's.

Zach Williams for Wulff too.

But I agree, I'd take Doba's group too.

 

[CougPatrol]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

Originally posted by dgibbons:

But I agree, I'd take Doba's group too.

Me too, but, I could have sold kids on WSU in 2003, 2004, 2005, etc.

Wulff was a no-name, FCS coach who had to sell kids all the benefits of playing for a program that was sinking faster than the titanic.

Doba's staff had a much easier recruiting pitch and they still failed miserably.

 

[CougEd]

I guess...

Would I rather get drafted like they say Cooper will, or go free agent route of Ropati? Hill (3rd round), Harrison (5), Gibson (6), Brink (7) and everyone else is a free agent. In four years there is a good chance Wulff will have two QB's who made the NFL. Doba recruited the majority off three 10 win seasons in the near past. Hill and Abdullah were first recruited by Price.

So you have Wulff who has Williams drafted, Fullington on a roster, and Gonzales was a middle of camp cut, and now Rodger's who may get drafted. That is along the oline alone. Two qb's, two dlineman, and at least one WR. So if we look at Doba how many first round draft picks did he have? Wulff? One. If Cooper goes two or three he matches Doba's highest draft pick in Hill.

To me, it looks like Doba had 9 kids in the NFL. 5 free agents, and a 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th round draft pick.

To date, Wulff has a first round and a 5th round, with another kid slotted between 2-5. If Halliday gets picked and Rodgers gets picked is it really that close since Doba had two ten win seasons and Price for a good part of recruiting Abdullah and Hill, and a third ten win season when he got the other 7?

Yeah, I think I would take Wulff's recruiting Doba's, escpecially if Cooper makes it in the first four rounds.

 

[dgibbons]

Re: I guess...

Originally posted by CougEd:
Would I rather get drafted like they say Cooper will, or go free agent route of Ropati? Hill (3rd round), Harrison (5), Gibson (6), Brink (7) and everyone else is a free agent. In four years there is a good chance Wulff will have two QB's who made the NFL. Doba recruited the majority off three 10 win seasons in the near past. Hill and Abdullah were first recruited by Price.

So you have Wulff who has Williams drafted, Fullington on a roster, and Gonzales was a middle of camp cut, and now Rodger's who may get drafted. That is along the oline alone. Two qb's, two dlineman, and at least one WR. So if we look at Doba how many first round draft picks did he have? Wulff? One. If Cooper goes two or three he matches Doba's highest draft pick in Hill.

To me, it looks like Doba had 9 kids in the NFL. 5 free agents, and a 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th round draft pick.

To date, Wulff has a first round and a 5th round, with another kid slotted between 2-5. If Halliday gets picked and Rodgers gets picked is it really that close since Doba had two ten win seasons and Price for a good part of recruiting Abdullah and Hill, and a third ten win season when he got the other 7?

Yeah, I think I would take Wulff's recruiting Doba's, escpecially if Cooper makes it in the first four rounds.

You're only making distinctions among drafted and undrafted players where you choose to. Be consistent (you Consistency Crusader) with your methodology. If you're going to cut off Hill, how does Wulff get credit for Cooper, since Cooper never played a down for him?

Amazing how the OL sucked as bad as it did, with all that talent....

Charles Dillon spent some time with the Packers, Byrd was in camp with somebody, I believe that Andy Mattingly was in a camp too, if we're counting cups of coffee.
This post was edited on 3/17 12:54 PM by dgibbons

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: It has never been confined to WSU...who said it was?

You are missing this. It's my question to you. I'd like specific parameters so I know what I'm researching. As an example, are you saying 14 players not playing their junior year is abnormal? Are you saying that of specific positions? Do you think Alabama, as an example, doesn't have this kind of "attrition"? I'm asking what YOUR point is, so I can do research to see if it is confined to WSU… I do think you are trying to make some point that can be applied to half the D1 but my research will prove or disprove that. But first I need your point… Specific point.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: I guess...

Originally posted by CougEd:
Would I rather get drafted like they say Cooper will, or go free agent route of Ropati? Hill (3rd round), Harrison (5), Gibson (6), Brink (7) and everyone else is a free agent. In four years there is a good chance Wulff will have two QB's who made the NFL. Doba recruited the majority off three 10 win seasons in the near past. Hill and Abdullah were first recruited by Price.

So you have Wulff who has Williams drafted, Fullington on a roster, and Gonzales was a middle of camp cut, and now Rodger's who may get drafted. That is along the oline alone. Two qb's, two dlineman, and at least one WR. So if we look at Doba how many first round draft picks did he have? Wulff? One. If Cooper goes two or three he matches Doba's highest draft pick in Hill.

To me, it looks like Doba had 9 kids in the NFL. 5 free agents, and a 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th round draft pick.

To date, Wulff has a first round and a 5th round, with another kid slotted between 2-5. If Halliday gets picked and Rodgers gets picked is it really that close since Doba had two ten win seasons and Price for a good part of recruiting Abdullah and Hill, and a third ten win season when he got the other 7?

Yeah, I think I would take Wulff's recruiting Doba's, escpecially if Cooper makes it in the first four rounds.

If you're going to discount Abdullah & Hill because Price partially recruited them, then can I discount Bucannon, Halliday & Cooper, since Leach primarily coached them? Or Rodgers, since he didn't even finish his career with WSU?

And, your initially comment was "Wulff for example will have more recruits on an NFL squad in his four years than Doba every recruited", which is not true.

This post was edited on 3/17 4:10 PM by Fab5Coug

 

[CougEd]

First, I said he will have....

Second, I didn't say discount them. But recruiting a kid is different than coaching them. The evaluation process was already in place when Doba took over. They already offered both those players.

But like I said despite the bad record, and not having three straight wining seasons in the near past, Wulff was at least as successful, and I would say more successful than Doba based on the rounds the kids are getting picked in and also the greater obstacles Wulff had when it came to recruiting.

 

[CougEd]

My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

left. I think it is 2/3' of the class is gone. There is no research to be done. Based on past history 1/2 of a given class does not live up to its hype. At best they are roll players. But the question and the research has to be done in a rebuilding going into season four how many teams who were successful year four was missing 2/3's of the class?

 

[wulffui]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

Theres two people constantly complaining about our red zone offense.

In roughly 80 combined posts, have either of you said the word "kicker" once? One of you literally said defenses structure around our red zone issues- any possibility a kicker who was dependable from 35 in might change that, because that seems like the easiest fix.

 

[wulffui]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

Originally posted by CougEd:
left. I think it is 2/3' of the class is gone. There is no research to be done. Based on past history 1/2 of a given class does not live up to its hype. At best they are roll players. But the question and the research has to be done in a rebuilding going into season four how many teams who were successful year four was missing 2/3's of the class?

Pretty disingenuous to treat "attrition" and "JUCO's who've exhausted eligibility because of the canyon size holes the prior coach left behind" as the same thing. Also, if the bolded above is true, as you say, wouldn't you say the last coaches 20% hit rate could be considered substandard?
This post was edited on 3/17 6:46 PM by wulffui

 

[Coug1990]

Re: 95...when you use recruiting rankings after the kids have been in the

Originally posted by dgibbons:
Zach Williams for Wulff too.

But I agree, I'd take Doba's group too.

Omadale (Wally) Dada also spent time on an active NFL roster.

This post was edited on 3/17 9:16 PM by Coug1990

 

[YakiCoug]

Originally posted by spongebob11:
Yes Yaki, I would love for a 22 yr old kid to have success on the football and off regardless of who coached or recruited him.

Only you could post something so ridiculous.

Go route [/I]for the Huskies or something.

I'm assuming your time in high school predated state assessment tests. You are hardly the "roll" model to which your brother alludes. Give Wulff's wife a chance, btw.

This post was edited on 3/17 9:42 PM by YakiCoug

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

So a good analogy would be to see how many players from Wulffs first class were still playing his last season? How about Dobas last season? Or to branch out, any other program with a coach 4 years in, to see how many of that first class is active? Is that correct?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

So I went with the 2009 official roster, counted the frosh and then went to the 2011 official roster and counted the Juniors. Made sure to not count Juco's or Redshirts… Guess the numbers anyone?
here's the links to the rosters, if anyone wishes to double check me.
2009-2011 WASHINGTON STATE FOOTBALL ROSTER ...
There were 25 true freshman in 2009 according to the roster. And the number of true Juniors in 2011? Drum roll, please… 4.
-Carl Winston
-Jeff Tuel
-Gino Simone
-Travis Long

So I thought that was pretty crazy. Went back to see who took a redshirt, meaning true freshman in 2009, redshirt in 2011. None.

So I went with 2009 redshirt freshman to 2011 reshirt juniors. So really this is a completely separate class from the above, I'm just trying to hit any/every possible situation here, with these two rosters only and the terms "freshman" and "junior".
-Louis Bland
-Anthony Laurenzi
-Andrei Lintz
-Jay Matthews
-Kyle McCartney
-Daniel Simmons
-Dan Spitz
-Skylar Stormo
-Tyree Toomer (he actually redshirted between these time periods so he was a "sophomore" in 2009 and a redshirt junior in 2011. I'll still give you that one)

9 players made it through.

I intend to go through Doba's first class and his last, as well.

Then I'm hoping to randomly pick a program, and go back to when the current coach came in, and then fast forward 3-4 years to see whose left… basically do the same thing.

But I'm going to continue to say… what you are saying is NOT abnormal. If you're point was to say it's normal, OK. But without you saying anything in context, it sure sounds like you are trying to slam CML… But you won't stick your neck out to say anything to that affect. You just give odd numbers without context or your opinion whether this is a bad thing, good thing, normal thing, abnormal thing… nothing. Just insinuation, it seems. Intentional or not. I've asked point blank and you still refuse to give your intention. So I'm going with it.

When I get Doba's numbers, I'll post. Then I'll show another program, not WSU.

EDIT: So when I go to find a complete roster, I'm not finding one. The "official" roster has 4 freshman. I go to other sites, everyone is a senior. When I go to the commit list, it doesn't jive with any roster I can find… So real issues finding a roster/list that I can rely on. Just too far back, I guess. So, I'm going to go to another program, see what I can find that's a bit more in this era. Just an update...
This post was edited on 3/18 12:02 PM by Coug95man2

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: First, I said he will have....

Originally posted by CougEd:
Second, I didn't say discount them. But recruiting a kid is different than coaching them. The evaluation process was already in place when Doba took over. They already offered both those players.

But like I said despite the bad record, and not having three straight wining seasons in the near past, Wulff was at least as successful, and I would say more successful than Doba based on the rounds the kids are getting picked in and also the greater obstacles Wulff had when it came to recruiting.

Yes, I understood what your comment was. "Wulff for example will have more recruits on an NFL squad in his four years than Doba every recruited". Even assuming Halliday & Rodgers are drafted, or make an NFL roster, your comment is still not true. Sorry.

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

Welp. Randomly picked Texas A&M. Found a site that had all the D1 schools, closed my eyes, scrolled down, stopped the scrolling and this is where the cursor was. Sumlin… hired December 2011 and not the best analogy (as he came in after Sherman started building them up pretty good), not the easiest (I found) to go with, either. The official roster doesn't differentiate between freshman and redshirt freshman. So the official roster has 44 freshman. I decided, due to the fact I didn't "cherry pick" Tamu, I'd stick with it, to see what happened and post the results regardless.

44 freshman for the 2012-13 year

18 juniors for the 2014-15 year. I made sure not to include any player that had a college in it's "previous school" status, meaning transfers or C.C.'s.

EDIT: My bad. 41% REMAINED, not what I put here. 41% of the freshman were no longer on the roster. That doesn't mean they were affective or ever played a down but they were on the roster.

So I don't know what parameters you wanted, don't know what you were trying to say, Ed. But heavy, heavy attrition happens, even with a successful program, during a coaching transition. Tamu isn't the same numbers as what WSU has seen but it's still heavy. And realize there really isn't a way to know whom were TRUE freshman and not… one year can make a massive difference. While the overall is 41%. The true freshman from 2012 could have attrition of 60% or slightly higher but the redshirts skewed those numbers… Or opposite. But anyways, this is what I found, and that's with a national powerhouse that was "successful" (meaning going to bowls prior and after the coaching hire) during the coaching transition. Go with them as you will. Not the best analogy but that's what you get when you go "random".

This post was edited on 3/18 1:04 PM by Coug95man2

 

[CougEd]

I am sorry you went to another website...

You don't get on good footing with 9 players left from your initial class. Those players are now your seniors and redshirt juniors. From those classes, we have less than half our class to compete this year and next. And probably from that class we have 6 maybe 7 starters, ad couple of known back ups, and then about four kids who probably never will see the field.

And why you picked A and M is beyond me. They aren't rebuilding. If this was Leach's 7th year and he had a class that turned out like that it is no big deal, but when you are three years in and way below .500, you need some luck and good fortune to get this team back.

Last year we lost 3/4's of our secondary and people said no big thing. Maybe Buchanon's loss might be felt a little. Our defense got worse. Now we lose our best dlineman, and truth be told we have no where to go either stay the same and go up, but losing cooper without having a ton of reps for Eukale is problematic. Throw on top of that a QB who will have great games and crappers, and you will see why it was so important for us to have more players from year one recuiting class, including the needed corners.

Of course year one in recruiting will be a mixed bag. But if Jackson and Dockery panned out, we aren't giving up 60 to Cal. But having less than half that class, and having really 6-7 kids contributing only slows down the process of rebuild.

 

[BiggsCoug]

They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: I am sorry you went to another website...

Your response is so baffling, it's incredible. I pointed to WSU's previous coach, (not to pick on him and start a whole "thing" about CPW) and he had worse numbers than what you are pointing out with CML.

Was going to use Doba but the roster pages I found are wholly incomplete. Unusable, IMHO so I moved on.

I pick a random school so I don't cherry pick a school that fits my agenda, and over 60% of 2 classes are gone in 2 to 3 years during a coaching transition. And as you aptly point out, they are NOT rebuilding!!!

I'm not saying it's "no big deal" to lose players. I don't think anyone is saying that, only you are putting those words in others mouths. But losing players happens, especially in todays world and especially during a "rebuild". If you don't like my A&M example, I'd gladly do any other school but it HAS to be random, otherwise you or I will cherry pick a school to forward our perspective.

Regardless, you aren't following a logical next step to your statements…again. Yeah, so it isn't the best situation to have 9 players left in a class… So?! Is this abnormal? This is the only answer I need from you… Are you saying that having 9 players is abnormal and/or CML has failed because of this?

 

[dgibbons]

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

 

[95coug]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

True freshmen from 2009 should either be true juniors or redshirt sophomores in 2011. If you want your numbers to truly be accurate, have to account for both of those.

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

Good catch, fellow 95! I'll see what I come up with!

 

[Fab5Coug]

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

I don't think Reitnour was even 250. He was listed at 235 coming out of HS.

I'm not that big a fan of converting HS TEs to OL in the first place, but especially not when you're trying to add SEVENTY pounds to a kid.

I actually felt bad for Reitnour. Back injury? Shocking.

This post was edited on 3/18 4:23 PM by Fab5Coug

 

[BiggsCoug]

Taking high school tight ends and making them OL is the only thing that has worked at WSU. Like it or not.

I think you just take frames. Most 18 year old kids can't carry 260 pounds well. So why not take a kid at 6'6" 250 and grow him? Does it take time? Yes. Will he get there? Maybe. But you're working with a malleable frame. Maybe he gets to 275 and is a DE? Maybe you leave him at TE and call him a 6th OL? You have some options with those frames that you don't with others.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

I don't think Reitnour was even 250. He was listed at 235 coming out of HS.

I'm not that big a fan of converting HS TEs to OL in the first place, but especially not when you're trying to add SEVENTY pounds to a kid.

I actually felt bad for Reitnour. Back injury? Shocking.

This post was edited on 3/18 4:23 PM by Fab5Coug

 

[Fab5Coug]

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
Taking high school tight ends and making them OL is the only thing that has worked at WSU. Like it or not.

I think you just take frames. Most 18 year old kids can't carry 260 pounds well. So why not take a kid at 6'6" 250 and grow him? Does it take time? Yes. Will he get there? Maybe. But you're working with a malleable frame. Maybe he gets to 275 and is a DE? Maybe you leave him at TE and call him a 6th OL? You have some options with those frames that you don't with others.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

I don't think Reitnour was even 250. He was listed at 235 coming out of HS.

I'm not that big a fan of converting HS TEs to OL in the first place, but especially not when you're trying to add SEVENTY pounds to a kid.

I actually felt bad for Reitnour. Back injury? Shocking.

This post was edited on 3/18 4:23 PM by Fab5Coug

I know it's the only thing that's worked at WSU, that doesn't mean it has worked well. It's like the people who argue we should recruit in state more because the '02 RB team had a bunch of in state guys on it. That doesn't make it a viable & consistent strategy.

And, for the record, if the kid is 260+ coming out of HS, and has the frame to add 30 lbs over time, then fine. But Reitnour was 235. They asked him to try to add 60-70 lbs. That, I'm generally not going to be on board with.

This post was edited on 3/19 9:28 AM by Fab5Coug

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: My point is pretty simple...out of the 2012 class they have nine players

So that helped the numbers… I thought 4 was excruciatingly bad! So add 13 to the 4 and there was a total of 17 of that class… Much better and more to Ed's liking I'm sure. Good catch, 95.

 

[BiggsCoug]

It's the only thing that has given WSU 3 straight winning seasons. It worked well.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
Taking high school tight ends and making them OL is the only thing that has worked at WSU. Like it or not.

I think you just take frames. Most 18 year old kids can't carry 260 pounds well. So why not take a kid at 6'6" 250 and grow him? Does it take time? Yes. Will he get there? Maybe. But you're working with a malleable frame. Maybe he gets to 275 and is a DE? Maybe you leave him at TE and call him a 6th OL? You have some options with those frames that you don't with others.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

I don't think Reitnour was even 250. He was listed at 235 coming out of HS.

I'm not that big a fan of converting HS TEs to OL in the first place, but especially not when you're trying to add SEVENTY pounds to a kid.

I actually felt bad for Reitnour. Back injury? Shocking.

This post was edited on 3/18 4:23 PM by Fab5Coug

I know it's the only thing that's worked at WSU, that doesn't mean it has worked well. It's like the people who argue we should recruit in state more because the '02 RB team had a bunch of in state guys on it. That doesn't make it a viable & consistent strategy.

And, for the record, if the kid is 260+ coming out of HS, and has the frame to add 30 lbs over time, then fine. But Reitnour was 235. They asked him to try to add 60-70 lbs. That, I'm generally not going to be on board with.

This post was edited on 3/19 9:28 AM by Fab5Coug

 

[CougEd]

What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

when it comes to recruiting? Or his first year was vastly out of whack? If that is what you took away from it I apologize.

Over the years my 50% rule probably has been pretty accurate in predicting the success of a class. If there are 20 kids in a class, 10 will see the field. Look no further than WSU since I started following them in 1979. Or look at the Mike Price era.

So if you think I am saying Mike Leach has under performed relative to "other schools" in recruiting in terms of players leaving etc, that has not been my contention.

My first statement was after three seasons star ratings no longer matter. You can judge that class based on what you have seen on the field. That was what I originally said. You now have proof in the pudding. Based on what he did not get out of that class, and what he has left in the class, it is not a class that tells me recruiting picked up. and what he had to get out of that class he did not. He had to get Charleston White and Marceliuis Pippins out of that class. He got Dockery and Jackson. It was bad luck, but for 2014 to not be a disappointment he had to get two corners that would be experienced going into 2014.

The 2008 class probably had similar number to Leach's first class. The problem is he couldn't afford to miss on olineman and two DT's. But he did. If he got rankin for example his first year instead of Sanchez and Luapo, who never played a down, he probably wouldn't have the record he did.

But we now have a measuring stick on the 2012 class, and we will by mid season know where 2013 will be, thus stars will become irrelevant.

 

[Coug95man2]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

That's the way it sure seemed in your previous posts, and when you wouldn't answer my point-blank question of "Is the abnormal?" I just thought you were slamming CML.

So don't worry about it. THIS is exactly why I look at hard numbers. My perception was a bit different than what the numbers show but I wasn't exactly scientific on it, either. I thank the OTHER 95 for setting me straight on my oversight!!

I was off a bit, I misunderstood you, no harm, no foul.