If Mason clocked a 4.4 today during pro-day

[Fab5Coug]

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
It's the only thing that has given WSU 3 straight winning seasons. It worked well.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
Taking high school tight ends and making them OL is the only thing that has worked at WSU. Like it or not.

I think you just take frames. Most 18 year old kids can't carry 260 pounds well. So why not take a kid at 6'6" 250 and grow him? Does it take time? Yes. Will he get there? Maybe. But you're working with a malleable frame. Maybe he gets to 275 and is a DE? Maybe you leave him at TE and call him a 6th OL? You have some options with those frames that you don't with others.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by dgibbons:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
They had to get someone. They CHOSE no one. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:
Wulff's inability, or maybe just outright refusal to adequately recruit the offensive line is still baffling to me.

He recruited Fullington, and got Ecklund to campus, so he knew what a lineman was supposed to look like. He just didn't get anywhere near enough of them.

2008: Hogdon (Doba holdover), Spitz (Doba holdover), Reitnour
2009: Buckley, Prescott, Valenzuela
2010: Fullington, Rodgers
2011: Alex Mitchell, Christ, Taise

Those are the high school OL Wulff recruited. How on earth does a college football coach think he's going to succeed taking 2.75 OL recruits per class? Buckley, Mitchell & Taise never even qualified. So, Wulff actually ENROLLED 2 high school OL per year. Two.

Did he think he could just get away with having 8-10 bodies on the roster at all times? Did he think he was going to bat a thousand on the guys he landed?

Just confusing.

The only explanation I heard from him was, "it was a down year for linemen on the west coast". Can't remember which year that was.

If it's a down year on the west coast, then go somewhere else. Wulff didn't seem to have an issue going to FL to get DBs & WRs who would never play for us. There weren't any average looking linemen down there?

Why not have Spencer Waseem's dad "place" some linemen at WSU....

On top of the lack of numbers, there were some projects. Valenzuela was, let's say, a bit heavy. Fullington and Rodgers both played TE in high school. Reitnour was 250 pounds. Christ was coming from Germany. So yes, as was mentioned at the time, Wulff had to bat 1.000, and not just on retention but development too.

I don't think Reitnour was even 250. He was listed at 235 coming out of HS.

I'm not that big a fan of converting HS TEs to OL in the first place, but especially not when you're trying to add SEVENTY pounds to a kid.

I actually felt bad for Reitnour. Back injury? Shocking.

This post was edited on 3/18 4:23 PM by Fab5Coug

I know it's the only thing that's worked at WSU, that doesn't mean it has worked well. It's like the people who argue we should recruit in state more because the '02 RB team had a bunch of in state guys on it. That doesn't make it a viable & consistent strategy.

And, for the record, if the kid is 260+ coming out of HS, and has the frame to add 30 lbs over time, then fine. But Reitnour was 235. They asked him to try to add 60-70 lbs. That, I'm generally not going to be on board with.

This post was edited on 3/19 9:28 AM by Fab5Coug

Perhaps. Although, I don't think WSU should be married to any particular strategy they've employed in the past, because largely, they've all resulted in more bad football than good.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

Originally posted by CougEd:
when it comes to recruiting? Or his first year was vastly out of whack? If that is what you took away from it I apologize.

Over the years my 50% rule probably has been pretty accurate in predicting the success of a class. If there are 20 kids in a class, 10 will see the field. Look no further than WSU since I started following them in 1979. Or look at the Mike Price era.

So if you think I am saying Mike Leach has under performed relative to "other schools" in recruiting in terms of players leaving etc, that has not been my contention.

My first statement was after three seasons star ratings no longer matter. You can judge that class based on what you have seen on the field. That was what I originally said. You now have proof in the pudding. Based on what he did not get out of that class, and what he has left in the class, it is not a class that tells me recruiting picked up. and what he had to get out of that class he did not. He had to get Charleston White and Marceliuis Pippins out of that class. He got Dockery and Jackson. It was bad luck, but for 2014 to not be a disappointment he had to get two corners that would be experienced going into 2014.

The 2008 class probably had similar number to Leach's first class. The problem is he couldn't afford to miss on olineman and two DT's. But he did. If he got rankin for example his first year instead of Sanchez and Luapo, who never played a down, he probably wouldn't have the record he did.

But we now have a measuring stick on the 2012 class, and we will by mid season know where 2013 will be, thus stars will become irrelevant.

Nothing compares to the barren lack of production the '08 class had. Gabe Marks, by himself is darn near more productive than the entire '08 class combined.

Jared Karstetter might be the only player I would take out of that class if they were to be recruited again, and he was a Doba hold over.

This post was edited on 3/19 1:18 PM by Fab5Coug

 

[Coug1990]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
when it comes to recruiting? Or his first year was vastly out of whack? If that is what you took away from it I apologize.

Over the years my 50% rule probably has been pretty accurate in predicting the success of a class. If there are 20 kids in a class, 10 will see the field. Look no further than WSU since I started following them in 1979. Or look at the Mike Price era.

So if you think I am saying Mike Leach has under performed relative to "other schools" in recruiting in terms of players leaving etc, that has not been my contention.

My first statement was after three seasons star ratings no longer matter. You can judge that class based on what you have seen on the field. That was what I originally said. You now have proof in the pudding. Based on what he did not get out of that class, and what he has left in the class, it is not a class that tells me recruiting picked up. and what he had to get out of that class he did not. He had to get Charleston White and Marceliuis Pippins out of that class. He got Dockery and Jackson. It was bad luck, but for 2014 to not be a disappointment he had to get two corners that would be experienced going into 2014.

The 2008 class probably had similar number to Leach's first class. The problem is he couldn't afford to miss on olineman and two DT's. But he did. If he got rankin for example his first year instead of Sanchez and Luapo, who never played a down, he probably wouldn't have the record he did.

But we now have a measuring stick on the 2012 class, and we will by mid season know where 2013 will be, thus stars will become irrelevant.

Nothing compares to the barren lack of production the '08 class had. Gabe Marks, by himself is darn near more productive than the entire '08 class combined.

Jared Karstetter might be the only player I would take out of that class if they were to be recruited again, and he was a Doba hold over.

This post was edited on 3/19 1:18 PM by Fab5Coug

I am also of the belief that Wulff and his staff made players worse. He inherited many starters from Doba and all but one had much worse seasons under Wulff. Leach takes over and except for Wilson, every player played much better under Leach.

 

[Coug1990]

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

I know it's the only thing that's worked at WSU, that doesn't mean it has worked well. It's like the people who argue we should recruit in state more because the '02 RB team had a bunch of in state guys on it. That doesn't make it a viable & consistent strategy.

And, for the record, if the kid is 260+ coming out of HS, and has the frame to add 30 lbs over time, then fine. But Reitnour was 235. They asked him to try to add 60-70 lbs. That, I'm generally not going to be on board with.

Not to mention that the coaching staff put Reitnouer out there against Pac 10 foes when he was a true freshman. Is there any wonder why he did not do well and he was constantly injured? In his third year, he still was only listed as weighing 242 by WSU.

 

[425cougfan]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

Originally posted by Coug1990:

Originally posted by Fab5Coug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
when it comes to recruiting? Or his first year was vastly out of whack? If that is what you took away from it I apologize.

Over the years my 50% rule probably has been pretty accurate in predicting the success of a class. If there are 20 kids in a class, 10 will see the field. Look no further than WSU since I started following them in 1979. Or look at the Mike Price era.

So if you think I am saying Mike Leach has under performed relative to "other schools" in recruiting in terms of players leaving etc, that has not been my contention.

My first statement was after three seasons star ratings no longer matter. You can judge that class based on what you have seen on the field. That was what I originally said. You now have proof in the pudding. Based on what he did not get out of that class, and what he has left in the class, it is not a class that tells me recruiting picked up. and what he had to get out of that class he did not. He had to get Charleston White and Marceliuis Pippins out of that class. He got Dockery and Jackson. It was bad luck, but for 2014 to not be a disappointment he had to get two corners that would be experienced going into 2014.

The 2008 class probably had similar number to Leach's first class. The problem is he couldn't afford to miss on olineman and two DT's. But he did. If he got rankin for example his first year instead of Sanchez and Luapo, who never played a down, he probably wouldn't have the record he did.

But we now have a measuring stick on the 2012 class, and we will by mid season know where 2013 will be, thus stars will become irrelevant.

Nothing compares to the barren lack of production the '08 class had. Gabe Marks, by himself is darn near more productive than the entire '08 class combined.

Jared Karstetter might be the only player I would take out of that class if they were to be recruited again, and he was a Doba hold over.

This post was edited on 3/19 1:18 PM by Fab5Coug

I am also of the belief that Wulff and his staff made players worse. He inherited many starters from Doba and all but one had much worse seasons under Wulff. Leach takes over and except for Wilson, every player played much better under Leach.

Tuel was better in 2010 than in 2012 (injured for essentially the entirety of 2011), but that's a bit of a special case due to his inability to grasp the offense and the mix of getting benched and/or injured that ensued. Definitely agree that guys didn't produce as well under Wulff overall.

 

[CougEd]

Fab I agree...Kart may have been Doba's most effiecient recruiting class

He was 1 for 1 in that class. It is just too bad he and his staff didn't have anyone committed to pick and choose from, and it is too bad he didn't have kids evaluated. It was a disaster waiting to happen. A house of cards if you will.

 

[CougEd]

Not sure 3-9 is better than 4-8 with everyone back,

but if that is everyone playing better, I suppose I would have to agree. And the other decent recruit they had was Daniel Simmons. I can only imgaine if he got real coaching instead of the Big Sky coaching he got from Breske.

This post was edited on 3/20 4:40 PM by CougEd

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: Fab I agree...Kart may have been Doba's most effiecient recruiting class

Not that it really matters, but Doba had 3 commits in 08, Karstetter, Hogdon & Spitz.

At least 2 of them were linemen. ;-)

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: Not sure 3-9 is better than 4-8 with everyone back,

Um, I don't recall Simmons ever really being anything to write home about. But his tackle total increased from 21, 30 & 23 to 41 his senior year. He was also All Pac 12 honorable mention his senior year.

Again, nothing really stunning, but his best year, by quite a bit, was under Breske.

 

[CougEd]

That is the funniest part about the whole discussion

With Bosch, Dahl, Ecklund, Gonzaels, Guerra, Rodgers, Fullington, Williams, Jacobson..it may be the position that gets the most kids in the NFL...and certainly more productive than what Doba produced at the same time.

 

[longtimecoug]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

Originally posted by CougEd:
when it comes to recruiting? Or his first year was vastly out of whack? If that is what you took away from it I apologize.

Over the years my 50% rule probably has been pretty accurate in predicting the success of a class. If there are 20 kids in a class, 10 will see the field. Look no further than WSU since I started following them in 1979. Or look at the Mike Price era.

So if you think I am saying Mike Leach has under performed relative to "other schools" in recruiting in terms of players leaving etc, that has not been my contention.

My first statement was after three seasons star ratings no longer matter. You can judge that class based on what you have seen on the field. That was what I originally said. You now have proof in the pudding. Based on what he did not get out of that class, and what he has left in the class, it is not a class that tells me recruiting picked up. and what he had to get out of that class he did not. He had to get Charleston White and Marceliuis Pippins out of that class. He got Dockery and Jackson. It was bad luck, but for 2014 to not be a disappointment he had to get two corners that would be experienced going into 2014.

The 2008 class probably had similar number to Leach's first class. The problem is he couldn't afford to miss on olineman and two DT's. But he did. If he got rankin for example his first year instead of Sanchez and Luapo, who never played a down, he probably wouldn't have the record he did.

But we now have a measuring stick on the 2012 class, and we will by mid season know where 2013 will be, thus stars will become irrelevant.

Luapo played

 

[Coug1990]

Re: Not sure 3-9 is better than 4-8 with everyone back,

Originally posted by CougEd:
but if that is everyone playing better, I suppose I would have to agree. And the other decent recruit they had was Daniel Simmons. I can only imgaine if he got real coaching instead of the Big Sky coaching he got from Breske.

This post was edited on 3/20 4:40 PM by CougEd

Deone Buccannon is laughing at you Ed.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: Fab I agree...Kart may have been Doba's most effiecient recruiting class

Originally posted by CougEd:
He was 1 for 1 in that class. It is just too bad he and his staff didn't have anyone committed to pick and choose from, and it is too bad he didn't have kids evaluated. It was a disaster waiting to happen. A house of cards if you will.

What are you talking about? Doba left Wulff with a list, Wulff as usual wanted nothing to do with anything WSU related at the time. He brought his own list from Eastern. Do you know who Greg Peterson is?

 

[YakiCoug]

Yet another thread litterED

It is the Wulffian whine that never ends.

 

[YakiCoug]

Re: That is the funniest part about the whole discussion

Originally posted by CougEd:
With Bosch, Dahl, Ecklund, Gonzaels, Guerra, Rodgers, Fullington, Williams, Jacobson..it may be the position that gets the most kids in the NFL...and certainly more productive than what Doba produced at the same time.

Guerra was a Doba recruit. Dahl transferred to WSU in January 2012, when Leach was HC. But you never let facts get in the way of your delusions. HTHDA.

 

[Whitworth-Coug]

Re: That is the funniest part about the whole discussion

The President of the:

Continues .....................What a Sad Sad Coug Fan

 

[wulffui]

Re: That is the funniest part about the whole discussion

Originally posted by YakiCoug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
With Bosch, Dahl, Ecklund, Gonzaels, Guerra, Rodgers, Fullington, Williams, Jacobson..it may be the position that gets the most kids in the NFL...and certainly more productive than what Doba produced at the same time.

Guerra was a Doba recruit. Dahl transferred to WSU in January 2012, when Leach was HC. But you never let facts get in the way of your delusions. HTHDA.

I would think he would see the fallacy in the idea that the first three names on the list are walk-ons- guys that Paul Wulff, master of talent evaluation, DIDN'T SEE AS WORTHY OF A PLACE ON A PAC-12 TEAM. Or they would have had offers, right?

Have any of those "more NFL guys" so much as taken a snap in a game? Even one?

 

[YakiCoug]

Re: That is the funniest part about the whole discussion

Originally posted by wulffui:

Originally posted by YakiCoug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
With Bosch, Dahl, Ecklund, Gonzaels, Guerra, Rodgers, Fullington, Williams, Jacobson..it may be the position that gets the most kids in the NFL...and certainly more productive than what Doba produced at the same time.

Guerra was a Doba recruit. Dahl transferred to WSU in January 2012, when Leach was HC. But you never let facts get in the way of your delusions. HTHDA.

I would think he would see the fallacy in the idea that the first three names on the list are walk-ons- guys that Paul Wulff, master of talent evaluation, DIDN'T SEE AS WORTHY OF A PLACE ON A PAC-12 TEAM. Or they would have had offers, right?

Have any of those "more NFL guys" so much as taken a snap in a game? Even one?

Delusions are kind of that way.

 

[CougEd]

Fab you might have landed on the 2012 problem...

A corners tackles aren't a good thing. It could point to play up front or bad scheme if you CB is making more tackles than normal.

 

[CougEd]

As was Trufant, Coleman, and the ret of the DB's that played well under

Ball laughing at you when you railed on him.

I wonder if Ball is laughing at you while coaching in the Pac 12 while Breske is coaching at the level he excelled at. Some could argue he was way over his head in the Pac 12.

 

[YakiCoug]

Re: As was Trufant, Coleman, and the ret of the DB's that played well under

Originally posted by CougEd:
Ball laughing at you when you railed on him.

I wonder if Ball is laughing at you while coaching in the Pac 12 while Breske is coaching at the level he excelled at. Some could argue he was way over his head in the Pac 12.

Does Ball ever let you come up for air?
Yes, Ball is successful when he's got a real defensive coordinator over him, and he's good at delivering Sweeney Todd's lattes, something all your heroes are quite adept at doing.

This post was edited on 3/21 1:54 PM by YakiCoug

 

[CougEd]

Wulffui...pretty funny. Heard of Russell Wilson

It actually speaks volumes of any coach who can get a kid to walk on and they show enough talent to play at the Pac 12 level.

That is like saying our staff was stupid for not offering Todd Nelson a scholie back in the esarly 90's.

And maybe if you re-read my post, it wasn't even about "talent acquisition", I said it is funny and interesting during Wulff's tenure the oline was the most maligned position and yet it may be the most productive for the individuals.

 

[CougEd]

Interesting 1990...how many kids had either committed or visited? I heard

from a person who does not like Wulff at all said that he came into a horrendous situation, that the guys were lazy, didn't have offers, out and didn't have kids evaluated and Wulff was in scramble mode. This is someone who worked in the department. Maybe you have different information, please share.

 

[dgibbons]

Sounds like the same situation Leach inherited.

Only there were a bunch of guys committed that ended up elsewhere.

 

[dgibbons]

The funniest part is your inclusion of Dahl on that list

Since Wulff was unable to pry him away from his commitment to Montana, then walks on while Leach is the coach.

 

[YakiCoug]

Re: Interesting 1990...how many kids had either committed or visited? I heard

Originally posted by CougEd:
from a person who does not like Wulff at all said that he came into a horrendous situation, that the guys were lazy, didn't have offers, out and didn't have kids evaluated and Wulff was in scramble mode. This is someone who worked in the department. Maybe you have different information, please share.

So, what else did Walden tell you?

Why is it, Ed, that all your friends within the WSU athletic department get fired? OK, everyone here gets it that you still don't believe 6 and 40 was Wulff's fault. Give it up, loser.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Re: Fab you might have landed on the 2012 problem...

Originally posted by CougEd:
A corners tackles aren't a good thing. It could point to play up front or bad scheme if you CB is making more tackles than normal.

Yea, cause that '12 D was way worse than the '09 & '10 iterations Simmons played on.

He was All Con HM under Breske. Again, nothing to write home about, but better than he was under anyone else.

He certainly didn't regress.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: Interesting 1990...how many kids had either committed or visited? I heard

Originally posted by YakiCoug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
from a person who does not like Wulff at all said that he came into a horrendous situation, that the guys were lazy, didn't have offers, out and didn't have kids evaluated and Wulff was in scramble mode. This is someone who worked in the department. Maybe you have different information, please share.

So, what else did Walden tell you?

Why is it, Ed, that all your friends within the WSU athletic department get fired? OK, everyone here gets it that you still don't believe 6 and 40 was Wulff's fault. Give it up, loser.

Yep, Leach cleaned house. He needed too. There was so much misinformation put out by the Wulff crowd within the department to make themselves look better. So yes, I did have different information than Ed.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: As was Trufant, Coleman, and the ret of the DB's that played well under

Originally posted by CougEd:
Ball laughing at you when you railed on him.

I wonder if Ball is laughing at you while coaching in the Pac 12 while Breske is coaching at the level he excelled at. Some could argue he was way over his head in the Pac 12.

Ed making up things again. But, that is your M.O. Ball was a fantastic DB coach for WSU. He was an awful DC for WSU. I have never wavered from that. But, I like how you said that players didn't improve under Breske's Big Sky coaching, and yet I gave you proof of someone that did. What is your answer? To make something up about me and Ball.

This post was edited on 3/22 7:53 PM by Coug1990

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

In terms of guys that were worth recruiting from that 2008 class:

Karstetter -
Bland - guy was a ball player
Mackay (who knows what might have happened if not for the accident)
Toomer - not a great player but not terrible
Coerper - he played anywhere the coaches asked him
Daniels (neck injury ended his career early)

I'd take all those guys again. 6 out of 26 is pretty bad though.

 

[YakiCoug]

Re: What is your point? I mean have I ever said Leach is an anamoly

Originally posted by Flatlandcoug:
In terms of guys that were worth recruiting from that 2008 class:

Karstetter -
Bland - guy was a ball player
Mackay (who knows what might have happened if not for the accident)
Toomer - not a great player but not terrible
Coerper - he played anywhere the coaches asked him
Daniels (neck injury ended his career early)

I'd take all those guys again. 6 out of 26 is pretty bad though.

Other than Cory Mackay, the others had no offers from other conference schools. Nice try, though.

 

[CougEd]

Too funny 1990...The info didn't come from Wulff's camp

How many kids were offered and visited before Doba was let go? I believe Hodson and Kartsteter were the only committed players, there may have been a third in either stormo or Spitz.

That info is public knowledge. There is someone on this board who can back up the info I just gave you about kids not evaluated and there was no real working list.

 

[CougEd]

Yes I know who Greg Peterson is...

And your point?

How many offers did they have out. How many verbals? How many visits did Greg tell you they had set up? How many commits?

But even if they had a real working lost, which I have heard from a reliable source they did not, so what? Every coach evaluates their own kids. Just as Leach took a full class of 20 commits and sent half down the road to other places. There is a reason coaches do that...they want players who fit what they are trying to do.

 

[Coug1990]

The info didn't come from Wulff's camp, which means nothing

Corey Mackay was another the staff was recruiting hard. He wanted to commit to become a Cougar, but everyone (including him) knew Doba and his staff were dead men walking. But, you knew this, didn't you? You just forgot to write it on here.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: Yes I know who Greg Peterson is...Then your info is WRONG

Got that Ed? Your info is wrong and it shows you don't know as much as you think you do or your "Inside" source is full of crap.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: As was Trufant, Coleman, and the ret of the DB's that played well under

Originally posted by YakiCoug:

Originally posted by CougEd:
Ball laughing at you when you railed on him.

I wonder if Ball is laughing at you while coaching in the Pac 12 while Breske is coaching at the level he excelled at. Some could argue he was way over his head in the Pac 12.

Does Ball ever let you come up for air?
Yes, Ball is successful when he's got a real defensive coordinator over him, and he's good at delivering Sweeney Todd's lattes, something all your heroes are quite adept at doing.

This post was edited on 3/21 1:54 PM by YakiCoug

I wonder if Breske goes back to a FCS school and has even a small bit of success, will Ed change his tune and trump him as being a great coach like he has many times with Harold Etheridge?

This post was edited on 3/22 9:55 PM by Coug1990

 

[CougEd]

In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan...There you go again.

I am not making things up. Here is what you wrote "I am also of the belief that Wulff and his staff made players worse." Last I checked Ball was on Wulff's staff, so my remark was appropriate.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: Too funny 1990...The info didn't come from Wulff's camp

Ed, did you know that Corey Mackay was recruited by Doba's staff? He wanted to commit to WSU as well, but it was not a secret that Doba was going to get let go, so he committed to the uw. I am guessing you knew this, but forgot to mention it.

 

[CougEd]

Of course I would...

Etheridge showed when he has talent he can coach. Could be Breske was just coaching for the wrong guy...the wrong fit. So yeah, if he does well of course I would point it out and also be happy he is doing well.

 

[CougEd]

Actually I do get it

Again, ask Greg how many verbals they had. How many visits they had set up? How many commits? There are two sources. Hard data and what you term as a source. Sure one can be full of crap, but the numbers don't lie. And the source is just as reliable as Coach Peterson.

One coach has a class full to pick and choose from, the other had Karsteter and Hodson. Maybe Peterson can tell you how Rosie and Yarno were working as one and how they worked so well together to sell WSU.