Leach detractors- have you seen IT?

[Cougatron]

What's your point, Wulff was fixing the problem Doba left?

He actually didn't fix anything. He basically threw the program in the gutter. Never achieved more wins than doba in any season. And finished with stats that basically were around where Doba left. Essentially if we let Doba take a dump on the sideline at martin and put a visor on it and waited till he came back...that's Wulff.

 

[wulffui]

The decision to play a sick QB in meaningless minutes of a clear, unquestionable wipeout game which (you have decided) is a stupid risk of a capable player?

Who wasn't healthy enough to start said collegiate game.

Against one of the five worst teams in the level BELOW WSU.

You still haven't come within a mile.

 

[CPtheCoug]

Ummmm ...good try. Every coach fears when their QB gets out of the pocket. The speed creates a collision that they don't sustain in the pocket. That is why in the NFL the option has not been a big part of the game plan. That is why NFL people thought Griffin could be contained because he was really dangerous on the reads option, but it exposed him to big hits. And QB 101 is get down or get out. Avoid those hits.

Yep, so Wulff has no responsibility in this. Got it. Stupid QB's.....

 

[CougEd]

Yep, so Wulff has no responsibility in this. Got it. Stupid QB's.....

At what point is it on the player? Yeah, if this was Tuel's first year, maybe second, I would cut him slack. If this happened in the pocket I might have different feelings. If it happened where he couldn't get out of trouble, blame the coach. But he was less than six inches from the sideline.

Leach talks about player accountability all the time. Tuel not getting out of bounds when it is right there is on him.

 

[CougEd]

He actually didn't fix anything. He basically threw the program in the gutter. Never achieved more wins than doba in any season. And finished with stats that basically were around where Doba left. Essentially if we let Doba take a dump on the sideline at martin and put a visor on it and waited till he came back...that's Wulff.

Doba inherited a bowl team, 20 wins in the prior two seasons. Took a team that had depth and got their backside handed to them on the recruiting trail. How many all conference defensive players did Doba produce? How many got drafted or made it as a free agent on the defensive side of the ball? How many olineman did Doba get to the league. There are some facts there....

 

[Cougatron]

How many all conference defensive players did Doba produce?

2003
Derting
Jason David
Erik Coleman
Acholonu
Don Jackson
2004
LB - Will Derting (2nd team)
2005
Mkristo Bruce (2nd team)
2006
Eric Frampton (1st team)
Mkristo Bruce (1st team)
2007 - Offense only (Just to show you that there will still cougs on the 1st and 2nd team
Jed Collins (2)
Alex Brink (2)
Brandon Gibson (1)

2008
NONE
2009
NONE
2010
NONE
2011
Hoffman-Ellis (2nd)
Travis Long (2nd)

So to answer your question. Doba produced plenty of players that made the 1st/2nd all conference team. Where Wulff only had 3 players in 4 years make 1st or 2nd team all of which were in his last year.

How many got drafted or made it as a free agent on the defensive side of the ball?

2008 7 16 223 Alex Brink Texans QB
2007 3 12 76 Jason Hill 49ers WR
2007 5 28 165 Eric Frampton Raiders DB
2006 5 12 145 Jerome Harrison Browns RB
2005 3 12 76 Karl Paymah Broncos DB
2005 6 37 211 Calvin Armstrong Eagles T
2005 7 17 231 Hamza Abdullah Buccaneers DB
2004 3 19 82 Devard Darling Ravens WR
2004 4 29 125 Jason David Colts DB
2004 5 11 143 Erik Coleman Jets DB

Those are all the players drafted while Doba was Coach.

Here's the ones drafted while Wulff was Coach.
2011 6 38 203 Zack Williams Panthers C
2009 6 21 194 Brandon Gibson Eagles WR

And for Reference Leach
2013 - Marquess "FedEx Fax help me now" Wilson
2014 - Deone Buchanon
2015 - Xavier Cooper,
2915 - Vince Mayle

So as you can see Ed Leach has already had more than double drafted in 3 years what Wulff had drafted in 2.

How many olineman did Doba get to the league. There are some facts there....

1 was Drafted same as Wulff.

 

[spongebob11]

Who wasn't healthy enough to start said collegiate game.

Against one of the five worst teams in the level BELOW WSU.

You still haven't come within a mile.

Oh BS. He was cleared by the trainer to play. You are all butt hurt because they didn't consult Web MD.

 

[spongebob11]

2003
Derting
Jason David
Erik Coleman
Acholonu
Don Jackson
2004
LB - Will Derting (2nd team)
2005
Mkristo Bruce (2nd team)
2006
Eric Frampton (1st team)
Mkristo Bruce (1st team)
2007 - Offense only (Just to show you that there will still cougs on the 1st and 2nd team
Jed Collins (2)
Alex Brink (2)
Brandon Gibson (1)

2008
NONE
2009
NONE
2010
NONE
2011
Hoffman-Ellis (2nd)
Travis Long (2nd)

So to answer your question. Doba produced plenty of players that made the 1st/2nd all conference team. Where Wulff only had 3 players in 4 years make 1st or 2nd team all of which were in his last year.




2008 7 16 223 Alex Brink Texans QB
2007 3 12 76 Jason Hill 49ers WR
2007 5 28 165 Eric Frampton Raiders DB
2006 5 12 145 Jerome Harrison Browns RB
2005 3 12 76 Karl Paymah Broncos DB
2005 6 37 211 Calvin Armstrong Eagles T
2005 7 17 231 Hamza Abdullah Buccaneers DB
2004 3 19 82 Devard Darling Ravens WR
2004 4 29 125 Jason David Colts DB
2004 5 11 143 Erik Coleman Jets DB

Those are all the players drafted while Doba was Coach.

Here's the ones drafted while Wulff was Coach.
2011 6 38 203 Zack Williams Panthers C
2009 6 21 194 Brandon Gibson Eagles WR

And for Reference Leach
2013 - Marquess "FedEx Fax help me now" Wilson
2014 - Deone Buchanon
2015 - Xavier Cooper,
2915 - Vince Mayle

So as you can see Ed Leach has already had more than double drafted in 3 years what Wulff had drafted in 2.


1 was Drafted same as Wulff.

3 of the 4 players you mentioned for Leach were recruited by Wulff.

We are approaching yr 4...and I don't see any NFL players on this team.

 

[wulffui]

Oh BS. He was cleared by the trainer to play. You are all butt hurt because they didn't consult Web MD.

I bet Wulff was in bed by 730 on Friday nights while the starting QB and team medical staff worked on the gameplans. You've got less than nothing. Keep pretending the flu isn't an actual illness.

 

[Cougatron]

3 of the 4 players you mentioned for Leach were recruited by Wulff.

We are approaching yr 4...and I don't see any NFL players on this team.

How terrible of Leach to coach up players recruited by Wulff and get them in the NFL. How awful! What's that Wulff couldn't do that? no kidding...it's almost as if he was a crappy coach.

Leach has had players drafted every single year he has been here. (two last year) Don't be surprised if we have people drafted again. , Marks, Vaeo, Eklund, Dahl, Seydel all have a shot if they make a big enough splash.

Cooper had the following stats 37 total tackles (ast+solo), 9 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 pass breakup. That's completely achievable by Vaeo. Vaeo is the same size as cooper was Last year, and he might be faster.

Marks already has 1400 yards and 9 tds as a Junior
Mayle had that last year, and now Marks takes his place. Mayle only had 2k yards over his career. Marks still has 2 years of eligibility so he could easily explode.

We have several seniors who are a good size. Leach still has lineman in the league from his days at Tech.

In fact 3 lineman still in the NFL that were coached by Leach. Where is the great Zach Williams coached up by Wulff's wonders and genius? Ah Las Vegas Outlaws...such improvement.

 

[spongebob11]

How terrible of Leach to coach up players recruited by Wulff and get them in the NFL. How awful! What's that Wulff couldn't do that? no kidding...it's almost as if he was a crappy coach.

Leach has had players drafted every single year he has been here. (two last year) Don't be surprised if we have people drafted again. , Marks, Vaeo, Eklund, Dahl, Seydel all have a shot if they make a big enough splash.

Cooper had the following stats 37 total tackles (ast+solo), 9 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 pass breakup. That's completely achievable by Vaeo. Vaeo is the same size as cooper was Last year, and he might be faster.

Marks already has 1400 yards and 9 tds as a Junior
Mayle had that last year, and now Marks takes his place. Mayle only had 2k yards over his career. Marks still has 2 years of eligibility so he could easily explode.

We have several seniors who are a good size. Leach still has lineman in the league from his days at Tech.

In fact 3 lineman still in the NFL that were coached by Leach. Where is the great Zach Williams coached up by Wulff's wonders and genius? Ah Las Vegas Outlaws...such improvement.

Not sold on any of the guys you have mentioned being in the NFL. We'll see.

When Leach goes 8-4 this yr and his recruits start looking like they will be collecting a check some day, then maybe I'll drink the same Kool Aid as you. Until then, I am in show me mode.

I've honestly never seen anyone so excited about 3-9 in my life. Reading your posts on here would make one think we just went to the Rose bowl last yr.

 

[425cougfan]

3 of the 4 players you mentioned for Leach were recruited by Wulff.

We are approaching yr 4...and I don't see any NFL players on this team.

The issue with Wulff wasn't the handful or two of solid Pac-12 players he recruited over the course of four years. It was the Big Sky, WAC, and Sun Belt players making up 80% of the two-deeps at any given time.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Okay well let's see if he REALLY improved.

2007 was the last Doba's last year.

Points Scored
2007 25.67
2011: 29.8 ppg

Points Allowed
2007- 32.4
2011 - 31.8

Total Offense
2007 - 435 yds / game
2011 - 422 ypg

Total Defense
2007 - 418 yds / game
2011 - 410 ypg

So it took Wulff 4 years to basically be right at about where Doba left off. That was his ceiling. So where Doba was fired was where Wulff was fired, but Wulff gave us the gift of 4 pac 12 wins and 9 total wins during that 4 year span. Such improvement. I'm sure they should go and recount the coach of the year ballot.

The problem with what you just did is this:

Points scored
2011: 29.8 ppg
2014: 31.8 ppg

Points allowed
2011: 31.8 ppg
2014: 38.6 ppg

Total Offense
2011: 422 ypg
2014: 518 ypg

Total Defense
2011: 410 ypg
2014: 442 ypg

Wins
2011: 4
2014: 3

What has Leach really accomplished in 3 years? The offense is better but the defense is worse. Wins are down, excuses about Wulff are up. What's even funnier about the responses is the fact that none of you read my last post. You're so busy trying to get the internet burn on, you didn't see where I said that I understand that because of the dumpster fire Wulff set, the improvement was relative. I have high hopes for Leach still but I have to laugh at the inability to be objective on this board. FWIW, given our regression in 2014, most people outside of WSU would look at 2013 as a case of Leach winning with the guys that Wulff left him and regressing once he had to play his own players. If we fail to make a bowl game in 2015, that will look even more like the case. I don't know that I believe that is true, but you could make the case.

 

[Cougatron]

The problem with what you just did is this:


What has Leach really accomplished in 3 years?

You aren't comparing year 3 to year 3. You are comparing year 4 to year 3 and still Leach is producing better offensively. The defense is the focus now which should improve, and I am confident in that.

Compare year 2 Leach to year 2 Wulff. You won't because it was an abomination.

Compare year 1 Leach to year 1 Wulff. You won't because it was also absolutely ridiculously bad.

How many 6 win seasons did Wulff have in 4 years? What's that zero?
How many seasons did he have where he didn't even get 3 wins? What's that 3 years?

No AD on the planet will EVER hire Wulff again. EVER. That's how bad he is. EVER. Nobody wants him, and anyone with an IQ above 70 knows that, and knows how bad he was.

Wulff's ceiling is 4 wins. Leach's floor is 3. His ceiling so far is 6 and he's 3 years in.

 

[Cougatron]

most people outside of WSU would look at 2013 as a case of Leach winning with the guys that Wulff left him and regressing once he had to play his own players.

No they don't most people outside WSU know how absolutely fing bad WSU was before Leach took over. They know what he's up against, and they know he will turn it around because that's what he does. He turned around Kentucky as an OC, he did it at Oklahoma as an OC, and he did it at Tech as a HC.

We were THE WORST PROGRAM IN THE BCS. THE WORST. That's not just my opinion it's independent journalists opinion. Only a dumbass would think that averaging in the 80s in recruiting for a BCS conference team over 4 years wasn't that bad, or doesn't put a program at a disadvantage.

Still with a 10th ranked hardest schedule in FBS Leach won 6 games. Despite the dumpster fire he was handed. The program that most kids didn't want to come to in the west coast because of the perception Wulff created. And yet.."What has he done in 3 years?" 10% of our bowl history, highest APR in our history, Breaking NCAA records. Competitive recruiting that isn't in the bottom of FBS, beating USC at their home, beating Arizona at their home, beating Oregon State at their home, beating Utah at their home. Multiple kids drafted in the NFL and yet "What has he done in 3 years"

We are going to have good and bad seasons as we move forward. That's part of growth. There wasn't an instantaneous fix after being the laughing stock of the BCS, but people wanted to believe that Leach would waltz in and magic our 90% total crap roster that was below mid grade MWC teams was going to magically be world beaters.

And nothing I said is excuses. It's REALITY. WSU doesn't have a fertile recruiting ground to draw from. It doesn't have a strong reputation (and Wulff definitely ensured that).

Kids that are in highschool right now Freshmen etc. They were 1-3 years old when we went to the rosebowl. They know nothing about WSU / Price. All they know is WSU is the doormat program (Which Wulff helped to cement)

Since Leach has been here we've beaten the following Pac 12 schools
Arizona, Oregon State, USC, Washington, Utah, Cal

We are becoming a threat. It's not just oh WSU easy win anymore for teams. And that's a big step forward for us.

 

[longtimecoug]

The problem with what you just did is this:

Points scored
2011: 29.8 ppg
2014: 31.8 ppg

Points allowed
2011: 31.8 ppg
2014: 38.6 ppg

Total Offense
2011: 422 ypg
2014: 518 ypg

Total Defense
2011: 410 ypg
2014: 442 ypg

Wins
2011: 4
2014: 3

What has Leach really accomplished in 3 years? The offense is better but the defense is worse. Wins are down, excuses about Wulff are up. What's even funnier about the responses is the fact that none of you read my last post. You're so busy trying to get the internet burn on, you didn't see where I said that I understand that because of the dumpster fire Wulff set, the improvement was relative. I have high hopes for Leach still but I have to laugh at the inability to be objective on this board. FWIW, given our regression in 2014, most people outside of WSU would look at 2013 as a case of Leach winning with the guys that Wulff left him and regressing once he had to play his own players. If we fail to make a bowl game in 2015, that will look even more like the case. I don't know that I believe that is true, but you could make the case.

you could make the case, but you would be wrong, If you really thought that wulff left a dumpster fire, which he did you wouldn't constantly be carping about Leach not accomplishing anything

 

[MikeFingLeach]

You guys are arguing with Flat. The same guy that said Wulff's loss to SDSU was on par with our loss to 2013 national championship finalist Auburn. The guy will literally go to the depths of ridiculous to promote 'Wulff wasn't that bad'.

 

[CPtheCoug]

Kids that are in highschool right now Freshmen etc. They were 1-3 years old when we went to the rosebowl. They know nothing about WSU / Price. All they know is WSU is the doormat program (Which Wulff helped to cement)

WOOOOSH.

We should have locked the thread after this comment. This is EXACTLY what we are dealing with right now.

Seriously, nobody (and especially high school recruits) gives a F*** about what WSU did 10+ years ago. They don't care about Price, etc... They have no idea about any of that. What they see is the present and recent past (10 years ago for "us" is no big deal because most of us are old and remember, but for them 10 years ago means elementary/middle school. They don't remember).

That is completely lost on alot of people here. That's why you have some posters that seem to have a personal vendetta against Wulff. He REALLY screwed us. I even watched a news cast on TV about recruiting (or something) and the kid they interviewed was like "Oh yeah I mean Oregon has ALWAYS been good"

.....oh child so much you don't know...

 

[Coug95man2]

WOOOOSH.
"Oh yeah I mean Oregon has ALWAYS been good"

.....oh child so much you don't know...

I loved it back in the day when we played Oregon. Making fun of Donald Duck as their mascot, the HORRIBLY ugly colors… They just sucked and I loved playing them because they were so easy to make fun of. And that wasn't that long ago… Money changes things and the U.S. as a collective, tend to have a pretty short memory, unfortunately.

Same with Stanford. They were so proud of their "smart" players but they sucked so bad, for so long…

 

[CougEd]

Great research Tron...I thought we were talking about Doba the head coach. The job he didn't want to have and the recruiting went down the toilet.

You noticed all the players you speak of were when he was the assistant coach. What killed the program was his inability to get those players in which mentioned. No Davids', no Trufants, no Long's, Williams, Tai Tupai's, no Dertings.

His inability of his staff to recruit from three straight 10 win seasons is a true shame.

 

[CougEd]

No they don't most people outside WSU know how absolutely fing bad WSU was before Leach took over. They know what he's up against, and they know he will turn it around because that's what he does. He turned around Kentucky as an OC, he did it at Oklahoma as an OC, and he did it at Tech as a HC.

We were THE WORST PROGRAM IN THE BCS. THE WORST. That's not just my opinion it's independent journalists opinion. Only a dumbass would think that averaging in the 80s in recruiting for a BCS conference team over 4 years wasn't that bad, or doesn't put a program at a disadvantage.

Still with a 10th ranked hardest schedule in FBS Leach won 6 games. Despite the dumpster fire he was handed. The program that most kids didn't want to come to in the west coast because of the perception Wulff created. And yet.."What has he done in 3 years?" 10% of our bowl history, highest APR in our history, Breaking NCAA records. Competitive recruiting that isn't in the bottom of FBS, beating USC at their home, beating Arizona at their home, beating Oregon State at their home, beating Utah at their home. Multiple kids drafted in the NFL and yet "What has he done in 3 years"

We are going to have good and bad seasons as we move forward. That's part of growth. There wasn't an instantaneous fix after being the laughing stock of the BCS, but people wanted to believe that Leach would waltz in and magic our 90% total crap roster that was below mid grade MWC teams was going to magically be world beaters.

And nothing I said is excuses. It's REALITY. WSU doesn't have a fertile recruiting ground to draw from. It doesn't have a strong reputation (and Wulff definitely ensured that).

Kids that are in highschool right now Freshmen etc. They were 1-3 years old when we went to the rosebowl. They know nothing about WSU / Price. All they know is WSU is the doormat program (Which Wulff helped to cement)

Since Leach has been here we've beaten the following Pac 12 schools
Arizona, Oregon State, USC, Washington, Utah, Cal

We are becoming a threat. It's not just oh WSU easy win anymore for teams. And that's a big step forward for us.

Tron, in 2014 our defense gave up more points than it did in 2009. If you feel the need to sell leach there is a much better way to do it. But quit acting like 2011 was any different than 2014. Matter of fact, we were just as competitive as we were in 2014. Maybe even more so.

When you say he won with trash left over by Wulff, how do you account for the decline in 2014 when his own players were playing? Please tell me how you account for that?

You can plead for patience. Things you can point to is he is going after bodies on the oline. Maybe not great players, but will function in his system. You can point to the fact he will get functional receivers year in and year out.

You could point to the fact we have almost zero time lost because of injury on the offensive line. The Leach Beach does work. You can point to the high number of reps his first and second teams get. You can point to the scrimmages his younger players have every Thursday.

Then comes the hope. We can hope Barber, Eukale, and the like are suitable replacements for Cooper and Pole. We can hope a move to a 4-2-5 scheme gets more speed on the field. We hope that Pat Porter and White are better than Brown. We hope that our kicker can make an extra point. And we have to hope Falk eliminates the mistakes he made against ASU and UW and plays more like he did against OSU.

As a head coach he did not have to turn around a program. He added to the winning, not show them how to win. It is a very different task.

For all of our sake, you one can only hope the new President will have the same faith Floyd did and the same vision. It does this program no good to make a switch whether we are 3-9 or 5-7 after year four.

 

[Cougatron]

Great research Tron...I thought we were talking about Doba the head coach.

All of those were while he was head coach.

 

[CougEd]

WOOOOSH.

We should have locked the thread after this comment. This is EXACTLY what we are dealing with right now.

Seriously, nobody (and especially high school recruits) gives a F*** about what WSU did 10+ years ago. They don't care about Price, etc... They have no idea about any of that. What they see is the present and recent past (10 years ago for "us" is no big deal because most of us are old and remember, but for them 10 years ago means elementary/middle school. They don't remember).

That is completely lost on alot of people here. That's why you have some posters that seem to have a personal vendetta against Wulff. He REALLY screwed us. I even watched a news cast on TV about recruiting (or something) and the kid they interviewed was like "Oh yeah I mean Oregon has ALWAYS been good"

.....oh child so much you don't know...

He didn't screw us...the guy who took a 10 win season and couldn't get quality players in the program did. The path was set before the coach who took over for Doba ever said yes to the job. No QB, one experienced DT, two maybe three years in a row they got one DT, half probably never made if to campus. Pretend like this disaster is solely because of Wulff. Before Wulff or anyone was offered the job I said this is a five year fix based on what Price did and how long it took him to rebuild the program. They had no Qb on the team with Pac 10 experience, one DT but the kid was always hurt.

Since we are in a now moment, what they know of Leach, and what is probably pointed out by every recruiter is Mike Leach hasn't had a winning season since the recruits were 11 years old, and is coaching a team that hasn't had a winning season since they were 5. Some ugly realities.

 

[CougEd]

All of those were while he was head coach.

Which ones did he recruit as a head coach, which was the point. His ability to coach the kids on defense once they got to campus was never in doubt. The problems was his recruiting.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

What's laughable about this whole thread is that there is a complete disconnect in how the two coaches are being evaluated. After three years, our on the field performance is almost exactly the same as it was when Wulff was coach. We gain a few more yards but we don't really score more points, we give up a few more yards, we lose about the same number of games. There are plenty of excuses about why we can't win. I was told in another thread that I shouldn't expect us to make a bowl game this year. The recruiting is better right now without a doubt. The results on the field aren't. If anything, if we don't make a bowl game this year or next, you're just making a strong case for the idea that the next coach will have a good foundation to work with.

At what point is accountability expected from this coaching staff? Squeaking out six wins in 2013 and then regressing to three wins was not something I remember in the press conference when Moos introduced Mike Leach as head coach. I remember talk about competing for conference championships. Not, we need to show patience and wait four more years for a second low level bowl appearance. My complaints right now have less to do with Wulff and a lot more to do with the fact that Leach is not delivering on the goods we were promised. His performance so far is more Paul Wulff than Jim Harbaugh. The fact that we can even compare stats between the two at all is a huge disappointment.

Going back to the "IT" moment that started this turkey, there hasn't been the specific "IT" moment where I felt that Leach wasn't going to be successful. However, the loss to CU in 2012, CSU in 2013 and Nevada in 2014 do tell me that Leach is the same guy he's always been. A quirky, divisive character that will often make decisions that drive fans insane. Even when (if?) he gets things turned around, there will be times where we'll be furious at his decisions. So far, he's cost us at least two wins because of truly stupid coaching decisions. He almost cost us wins against EWU and UNLV because of bad coaching choices. Right now, he's yet to prove that he can win in Pullman. Any "trend" identified is predicated on the idea that things are going to turn around this year and then the same people saying that he is following the right trend say that we shouldn't expect anything good because of stuff that happened over 3 years ago.

The real "IT" question that I see looming right now is this. If Leach can't get us wins over the bottom of the league after four years, how in the hell is he ever going to lead us to a championship? I believe that we'll get to a bowl game this year and end a lot of this talk, but if we don't, we need to be honest with ourselves and him about the future. We are NEVER going to have the athletes that USC, UCLA and Oregon get. We don't have the resources or location to do that. There are always going to be reasons why we can't succeed if we choose to empower those reasons. Great coaches win wherever they are at and don't let the reasons overpower them. Mike Leach aspires to be a great coach. He has the opportunity to prove that at WSU. So far, he's proving to be just another good coach in a bad situation. Whining about Wulff is just window dressing to try and ignore the failings of his coaching tenure so far. BTW, the win over USC was great but it is important that you remember that victory happened against a USC team that was playing as bad as any USC team had in decades. The loss to WSU meant that USC had gone 4-7 in an 11 game stretch. It was one of the main reasons that Kiffin was fired. Everyone on this board knows that if we would have played USC with Orgeron coaching, it would have been a bloodbath. Don't hang your support of Leach's tenure on one flawed win. Leach has done some good things at WSU, but he has not built a resume that suggests that he is "the guy" for us. The opportunity is still there, but it needs to happen soon. Everyone on this board has seen the empty seats increasing, everyone knows that season ticket sales are faltering, everyone knows that fundraising is not where it needs to be. All BS aside and all discussions of whether or not Wulff is the worst coach ever aside, WSU is rapidly fading from relevance right now. "IT" moment or not, that's a big freakin' problem.

 

[CougEd]

You aren't comparing year 3 to year 3. You are comparing year 4 to year 3 and still Leach is producing better offensively. The defense is the focus now which should improve, and I am confident in that.

Compare year 2 Leach to year 2 Wulff. You won't because it was an abomination.

Compare year 1 Leach to year 1 Wulff. You won't because it was also absolutely ridiculously bad.

How many 6 win seasons did Wulff have in 4 years? What's that zero?
How many seasons did he have where he didn't even get 3 wins? What's that 3 years?

No AD on the planet will EVER hire Wulff again. EVER. That's how bad he is. EVER. Nobody wants him, and anyone with an IQ above 70 knows that, and knows how bad he was.

Wulff's ceiling is 4 wins. Leach's floor is 3. His ceiling so far is 6 and he's 3 years in.

Tron...why are you convinced the defense should improve? If you believe Brown is the best corner, he is no longer with us. Do you believe Cooper and Pole were the two best lineman? I get they can't be worse, how could they? But marginally better ? Even with the losses, maybe.

I just haven't seen Eukale or Barber play all that much. Porter? Maybe a JC guy comes in and changes everything. But how often with Doba did a JC guy come in and make an impact from game one on?

What have you seen to suggest that they will make up what we lost on experience in offense with Halliday.

 

[Cougatron]

Tron, in 2014 our defense gave up more points than it did in 2009. If you feel the need to sell leach there is a much better way to do it. But quit acting like 2011 was any different than 2014. Matter of fact, we were just as competitive as we were in 2014. Maybe even more so.

When you say he won with trash left over by Wulff, how do you account for the decline in 2014 when his own players were playing? Please tell me how you account for that?.

2011 is not 2014 because it's the 4th year vs the 3rd year you have to compare similar years. That's how it works. 4 does not equal 3. 4 = 4. This is basic logic. The fact you can't grasp that basic idea illustrates your stupidity.
2014 was the 3td year for Leach 2011 the 4th year for Wulff.

Compare next year to 2011.

How do I account for the decline? Poor Special Teams and Poor Defense. Which both coaches were fired. Leach doesn't feed us BS like Wulff did. He sees an issue he addresses it. We'll move forward. Leach evaluates progress. The defense regressed. The special teams regressed. He makes adjustments to fix the problem.

We had a very thin and young secondary, and it got exploited. Where was ole Tracy Clark. The Wulff diamond on that Rutgers opening touchdown? We didn't have much for a secondary to begin with and then played young players who got burnt. Will they be better next ear. Yes.

 

[Cougatron]

Tron...why are you convinced the defense should improve?

Charleston White is our best corner. And to illustrate that did you know that he was ranked #29 in pass breakups in the country playing just 9 games.
He was #3 in the country in pass breakups / game average.
He was our best corner.

We have an entire new two deep coming in to support the young guys who got experience last year. Adding an extra DB in nickel will also help us.

Tapa, Eukale, Paulo, Vaeo, and Barber will have more of an impact than Cooper and Pole. Add in Coates, and Mitchell and our DL looks better.

Allison, Palcio, Luvu, Peuller all will be a strength at backer. Returning experience with new talent emerging.

It will be a better defense.

 

[CougEd]

2011 is not 2014 because it's the 4th year vs the 3rd year you have to compare similar years. That's how it works. 4 does not equal 3. 4 = 4. This is basic logic. The fact you can't grasp that basic idea illustrates your stupidity.
2014 was the 3td year for Leach 2011 the 4th year for Wulff.

Compare next year to 2011.

How do I account for the decline? Poor Special Teams and Poor Defense. Which both coaches were fired. Leach doesn't feed us BS like Wulff did. He sees an issue he addresses it. We'll move forward. Leach evaluates progress. The defense regressed. The special teams regressed. He makes adjustments to fix the problem.

We had a very thin and young secondary, and it got exploited. Where was ole Tracy Clark. The Wulff diamond on that Rutgers opening touchdown? We didn't have much for a secondary to begin with and then played young players who got burnt. Will they be better next ear. Yes.

I don't fail to see the comparison of years. I get year four to year four, but why even make that comparison? Why would you not somewhat expect the guy who took what Kentucky had and make them better? Why would you not expect the guy who took OU's offense and made them a better team? Why would you not expect the guy who took an average Tech team and make them above average? Why would I expect or anyone expect Leach to be mentioned in the same breath as a coach that was a project as a head coach?

But you get 2014 they regressed defensively to year two (2009) of one of the worse teams in Cougar history.

What just cracks me up is Leach evaluated the problem and took steps to fix it by firing two coaches, and he evaluated, looked at the problem and did something about it.

Doba did the same, he saw recruiting problems and fired who?

Then Wulff sat back and complained. When in truth he fired his Oline coach and brought in one with a great resume. And after year three, the same time Leach made adjustments, he fired Niekamp and Roberson. But then the arguments comes he should have never hired them in the first place.

 

[CougEd]

Charleston White is our best corner. And to illustrate that did you know that he was ranked #29 in pass breakups in the country playing just 9 games.
He was #3 in the country in pass breakups / game average.
He was our best corner.

We have an entire new two deep coming in to support the young guys who got experience last year. Adding an extra DB in nickel will also help us.

Tapa, Eukale, Paulo, Vaeo, and Barber will have more of an impact than Cooper and Pole. Add in Coates, and Mitchell and our DL looks better.

Allison, Palcio, Luvu, Peuller all will be a strength at backer. Returning experience with new talent emerging.

It will be a better defense.

 

[Cougatron]

What's laughable about this whole thread is that there is a complete disconnect in how the two coaches are being evaluated. After three years, our on the field performance is almost exactly the same as it was when Wulff was coach.

After 3 years Leach - Bowl Game, 12 wins, 7 conference wins
After 3 years Wulff - No bowl game 5 wins - 2 conference wins

THAT is how you compare, and that is how you evaluate correctly.

Now it can get even more interesting when you add 4 previous years records and recruiting average. You can go do that if you like. It will be very ugly for Wulff.

And don't even talk about relevancy. Wulff made sure we were irrelevant. Leach is trying to make us relevant, and by beating Pac 12 teams in their own house he's doing it.

 

[froropmkr72]

2011 is not 2014 because it's the 4th year vs the 3rd year you have to compare similar years. That's how it works. 4 does not equal 3. 4 = 4. This is basic logic. The fact you can't grasp that basic idea illustrates your stupidity.
2014 was the 3td year for Leach 2011 the 4th year for Wulff.

Compare next year to 2011.

How do I account for the decline? Poor Special Teams and Poor Defense. Which both coaches were fired. Leach doesn't feed us BS like Wulff did. He sees an issue he addresses it. We'll move forward. Leach evaluates progress. The defense regressed. The special teams regressed. He makes adjustments to fix the problem.

We had a very thin and young secondary, and it got exploited. Where was ole Tracy Clark. The Wulff diamond on that Rutgers opening touchdown? We didn't have much for a secondary to begin with and then played young players who got burnt. Will they be better next ear. Yes.

The 14' defense had 15 % less tackles, as many tfl and 13 less interceptions. The 13' defense was better at the fundamentals, they had Deone and the linebackers were the 2nd, 3rd and 4th leading tacklers. No matter how explosive (I'm beginning to had that word) the number of tackles reflect non-blown assignments and a more experienced and healthy linebacker-defensive backs will benefit. The numbers should return to normal.

 

[CougEd]

Yes, even without your stats White is our best corner we have seen. And White is an ok corner, maybe an honorable mention level corner. Not Torey or Jason David, and not close to Marcus. He would be an all conference safety. I hope he gets moved there cause he and Hamid would add a great deal of speed to the position.

As for the rest of what you said, I appreciate your confidence, but what have you seen that backs up your statement. Certain not college data. Do I think Pole and Cooper were so outstanding they can't be replaced? Nope. But there is no college evidence that says they are as good. Same can be said at linebacker, and gawd knows what we have in a kicker, although the kid from Meadowdale I have seen and he has a legit leg.

 

[CougEd]

After 3 years Leach - Bowl Game, 12 wins, 7 conference wins
After 3 years Wulff - No bowl game 5 wins - 2 conference wins

THAT is how you compare, and that is how you evaluate correctly.

Now it can get even more interesting when you add 4 previous years records and recruiting average. You can go do that if you like. It will be very ugly for Wulff.

And don't even talk about relevancy. Wulff made sure we were irrelevant. Leach is trying to make us relevant, and by beating Pac 12 teams in their own house he's doing it.

Actually, do you really believe a new President is going to say...well the 9-40 guy s was 2-10 year three and 4-8 year 4 and that is how we are going to evaluate our 2.5 million dollar investment?

To evaluate correctly, I would tend to think the new president is probably going to look at the peers, ask how Arizona turned it around so quickly, how ASU did as well, and I would suspect they would look less at what Paul Wulff did and didn't do.

 

[Cougatron]

I don't fail to see the comparison of years. I get year four to year four, but why even make that comparison? .

Because it's accurate? The last year in a tenure and the first under rebuilds are RARELY better. Price didn't do better, Ericson didn't, Walden didn't either. It doesn't work unless they are doing everything exactly the same and it was working before hand (see Doba) but when someone new comes in and it's all new staff the team roster has to be changed to fit the schemes, new schemes have to be learned.

Leach came in cleared out the poor talent he couldn't work with. Kept the ones he could. Upgraded the roster cobbled together what he could with the left overs and is working the young guys in. That's exactly what's happening.

It's a transition. That's why it's up and down. Young kids get experience. But you sacrifice getting burnt in the process. We had to do this eventually. That's why Price and Walden and other struggled early as well. It's part of the process.

Wulff went in and just burned it all and went from absolute zero which was a complete disaster and stupid thing to do. He squandered any chance he had to make a real transition, and it was one of his biggest blunders, in addition to recruiting, and O-line among other things.

Leach is taking the sparse things he can make something out of Bucannon, Halliday, Dom Williams, Meyers, Cooper, Pole etc. and using them to get through the transition. So he can bring up Falk, Calvin Green, Marks, etc.
Where things sucked last year was UW stealing our kicking recruit, and not having a secondary ready to transition after they departed. Had we had those pieces. WAY different result last year. But those coaches didn't do that, and Leach got rid of them for it.

 

[Cougatron]

Actually, do you really believe a new President is going to say...well the 9-40 guy s was 2-10 year three and 4-8 year 4 and that is how we are going to evaluate our 2.5 million dollar investment?

To evaluate correctly, I would tend to think the new president is probably going to look at the peers, ask how Arizona turned it around so quickly, how ASU did as well, and I would suspect they would look less at what Paul Wulff did and didn't do.

The new President will look at the entire situation and evaluate it. He'll look at what was going on before Leach, and he will say. This guy is doing better. He is building something legit and I'll give him plenty of time.

 

[Coug95man2]

I don't fail to see the comparison of years. I get year four to year four, but why even make that comparison? Why would you not somewhat expect the guy who took what Kentucky had and make them better? Why would you not expect the guy who took OU's offense and made them a better team? Why would you not expect the guy who took an average Tech team and make them above average? Why would I expect or anyone expect Leach to be mentioned in the same breath as a coach that was a project as a head coach?

But you get 2014 they regressed defensively to year two (2009) of one of the worse teams in Cougar history.

What just cracks me up is Leach evaluated the problem and took steps to fix it by firing two coaches, and he evaluated, looked at the problem and did something about it.

Doba did the same, he saw recruiting problems and fired who?

Then Wulff sat back and complained. When in truth he fired his Oline coach and brought in one with a great resume. And after year three, the same time Leach made adjustments, he fired Niekamp and Roberson. But then the arguments comes he should have never hired them in the first place.

Again, your statements and arguments seem to fall back on "What happened to Wulff, should happen to CML. Why isn't CML in the hot seat, just like Wulff was at this time in his tenure?" I don't get this. It's like you are trying to equate what is going on now, to the same thing happening between the 3rd and 4th year of Wulff. This is where everyone starts loading you up on the stats.

Is this your intent? Are you really trying to say we are in the same boat now, as 4 years ago?

 

[CougEd]

Because it's accurate? The last year in a tenure and the first under rebuilds are RARELY better. Price didn't do better, Ericson didn't, Walden didn't either. It doesn't work unless they are doing everything exactly the same and it was working before hand (see Doba) but when someone new comes in and it's all new staff the team roster has to be changed to fit the schemes, new schemes have to be learned.

Leach came in cleared out the poor talent he couldn't work with. Kept the ones he could. Upgraded the roster cobbled together what he could with the left overs and is working the young guys in. That's exactly what's happening.

It's a transition. That's why it's up and down. Young kids get experience. But you sacrifice getting burnt in the process. We had to do this eventually. That's why Price and Walden and other struggled early as well. It's part of the process.

Wulff went in and just burned it all and went from absolute zero which was a complete disaster and stupid thing to do. He squandered any chance he had to make a real transition, and it was one of his biggest blunders, in addition to recruiting, and O-line among other things.

Leach is taking the sparse things he can make something out of Bucannon, Halliday, Dom Williams, Meyers, Cooper, Pole etc. and using them to get through the transition. So he can bring up Falk, Calvin Green, Marks, etc.
Where things sucked last year was UW stealing our kicking recruit, and not having a secondary ready to transition after they departed. Had we had those pieces. WAY different result last year. But those coaches didn't do that, and Leach got rid of them for it.

Jesus....Let's go back to the Wulff thing. Lets start with this statement then move forward. I am actually now interested. We are now talking about the "process". Tell me what Wulff did or didn't do, IE, burned the place to the ground and what did Leach do year one? How were they different?

 

[CougEd]

Again, your statements and arguments seem to fall back on "What happened to Wulff, should happen to CML. Why isn't CML in the hot seat, just like Wulff was at this time in his tenure?" I don't get this. It's like you are trying to equate what is going on now, to the same thing happening between the 3rd and 4th year of Wulff. This is where everyone starts loading you up on the stats.

Is this your intent? Are you really trying to say we are in the same boat now, as 4 years ago?

Thanks for asking. Same boat, meaning that if Wulff was fired for having a sub 500 year so then Leach should be dispatched as well? Nope, not at all.

My point is really simple in the questions I asked. Our defense was worse in points allowed than in 2009. We couldn't cover anyone. On Oregon 5 TD passes there was not one throw that was contested. Brown covered the flat while his responsibility is the deep third in which a player curled behind him. He had no idea about his "keys". But I digress.

The discussion is two-fold. One where Tron says the defense will be better despite losing 2/3's of their dline and their most experienced CB. I question that notion without seeing anyone in Pac 12 play.

The second item is in truth there was enough talent around for two years to improve upon a 4-8 team that led UCLA until the last 3 minutes of that game, was within one inch of beating Utah, and led SDSU. Two out of three breaks and that is a bowl team. If that team was like 2007 where you lose you QB, your DT's I would agree total gut job. But there was enough talent to win in 2012 and 2013, and had enough talent save the secondary to carry it forward in 2014. It did not happen.

Should Leach be fired for it? Nope. Should he be on the hot seat? Not from my perspective. But to say it was a dumpster fire and no talent, or that he couldn't win in 2012 or 2013 is not accurate. Unlike Rich Rod and ASU's coach, which a new President will probably use as a measuring stick, Leach has fallen behind them.

 

[CougEd]

The new President will look at the entire situation and evaluate it. He'll look at what was going on before Leach, and he will say. This guy is doing better. He is building something legit and I'll give him plenty of time.

Do you really believe that?