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One last comment on the Apple Cup...

CougEd

CougEd

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Dec 22, 2002
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Living in the Seattle area the Apple Cup has become a joke. Huge Mellon laughed at the simplistic nature of our system both offense and defense and how there has been the same playbook for the last three years and nothing added. It is tough listening to people laugh when they talk about what this rivalry is turning into. It is tough to hear Chris Peterson owns Mike Leach.

I didn't go to the stadium on Saturday cause I knew we would make Browning look like an All Pac 12 QB, and they would make Luke Falk look like ...well...like we have looked the last four Apple Cups.

I am a person of expectations. And I have now lowered mine to the following. For next year I would be ok with being 5-7 and being in 10 points of the Dawgs in the last five minutes of the game.
 
You'd rather be 5-7 and just simply play the Dawgs close, than be 9-3 and lose to the Dawgs by whatever we just lost to them by?

Suit yourself.
 
I'll take 9-3, in the Pac 12 North conversation, and a blowout in AC in perpetuity over 5-7 and within in shouting distance for AC. We are barely through 1 true 5-year cylce with Leach. AC is important but I don't understand why for some of us it's everything.

They were better, they blew us up, it sucks, move on.
 
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CougEd said:
I didn't go to the stadium on Saturday cause I knew we would make Browning look like an All Pac 12 QB, and they would make Luke Falk look like ...well...like we have looked the last four Apple Cups.
Click to expand...
this is a minor point, but browning was barely a factor (11/17, 93 yards, 0 TDs). it was their running game that made our d look like children.
 
No surprise of this observation today. Not one person, anywhere was seen with a COUG shirt, jersey, or hoodie today. Non existent.

Total humiliation. This trend will someday end. Look at the Oregon-Washington series. Oregon had beaten, what 8 in a row? Last two years it was a Husky massacre and beat down for the Ducks.

We'll have our day someday....but again, history shows we only win 20% of AC's, so expectations are never high.
 
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M-I-Coug said:
No surprise of this observation today. Not one person, anywhere was seen with a COUG shirt, jersey, or hoodie today. Non existent.

Total humiliation. This trend will someday end. Look at the Oregon-Washington series. Oregon had beaten, what 8 in a row? Last two years it was a Husky massacre and beat down for the Ducks.

We'll have our day someday....but again, history shows we only win 20% of AC's, so expectations are never high.
Click to expand...


We'll win Apple Cups in the future. There have just been some glaring issues that need resolving. Talent gap, motivation, us firing on all cylinders leading to that game.

Falk took us as far as he could. He's a great coug, but now we need to take another step forward and reload with a better starting point than when he took the helm.

Price was 2-4 against the Huskies.
Leach is 1-5

I think Price was 3-12 against the Huskies.

The gap believe it or not is closing. This is about the peak the Huskies can be at. This is their peak. Do I think we are at WSU's peak. No way. We still have about 6-8 years of building from where we are at to really hit the okay this is a serious football program you go to Washington State to play serious football.

We hit that and we will beat the Huskies because the talent gap is gone, the intensity is on par, but we also have the chip on our shoulder.
 
M-I-Coug said:
No surprise of this observation today. Not one person, anywhere was seen with a COUG shirt, jersey, or hoodie today. Non existent.

Total humiliation. This trend will someday end. Look at the Oregon-Washington series. Oregon had beaten, what 9 in a row. Last two years it was a massacre for the Ducks.

We'll have our day someday....but again, history shows we only win 20% of AC's, so expectations are never high.
Click to expand...
Oregon beat UW 12 times straight and all of them were in blowout fashion. I believe weve won about 1 in 3 ACs so it’s not quite that bad. Certainly trending in the wrong direction at the moment though
 
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M-I-Coug said:
No surprise of this observation today. Not one person, anywhere was seen with a COUG shirt, jersey, or hoodie today. Non existent.

Total humiliation. This trend will someday end. Look at the Oregon-Washington series. Oregon had beaten, what 8 in a row? Last two years it was a Husky massacre and beat down for the Ducks.

We'll have our day someday....but again, history shows we only win 20% of AC's, so expectations are never high.
Click to expand...

Just over 30%. Don't make it worse than it is man.
 
CougEd said:
Living in the Seattle area the Apple Cup has become a joke. Huge Mellon laughed at the simplistic nature of our system both offense and defense and how there has been the same playbook for the last three years and nothing added. It is tough listening to people laugh when they talk about what this rivalry is turning into. It is tough to hear Chris Peterson owns Mike Leach.

I didn't go to the stadium on Saturday cause I knew we would make Browning look like an All Pac 12 QB, and they would make Luke Falk look like ...well...like we have looked the last four Apple Cups.

I am a person of expectations. And I have now lowered mine to the following. For next year I would be ok with being 5-7 and being in 10 points of the Dawgs in the last five minutes of the game.
Click to expand...


As I axed you the other day...which Pac12 team is most like UW and why have we had success against them when we haven't against Pete and UW?
 
Cougatron said:
We'll win Apple Cups in the future. There have just been some glaring issues that need resolving. Talent gap, motivation, us firing on all cylinders leading to that game.

Falk took us as far as he could. He's a great coug, but now we need to take another step forward and reload with a better starting point than when he took the helm.

Price was 2-4 against the Huskies.
Leach is 1-5

I think Price was 3-12 against the Huskies.

The gap believe it or not is closing. This is about the peak the Huskies can be at. This is their peak. Do I think we are at WSU's peak. No way. We still have about 6-8 years of building from where we are at to really hit the okay this is a serious football program you go to Washington State to play serious football.

We hit that and we will beat the Huskies because the talent gap is gone, the intensity is on par, but we also have the chip on our shoulder.
Click to expand...

Hit the bong a lot before you post there Cougatron? :D

Thank goodness for Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Cup#Coaching_records

Head Coach Team Games Seasons Wins Losses Ties Pct.
Phil Sarboe Washington State 6 1945–1949 2 4 0 .333
Forest Evashevski Washington State 2 1950–1951 1 1 0 .500
Al Kircher Washington State 4 1952–1955 2 2 0 .500
Jim Sutherland Washington State 8 1956–1963 2 6 0 .250
Bert Clark Washington State 4 1964–1967 1 3 0 .250
Jim Sweeney Washington State 8 1968–1975 3 5 0 .375
Jackie Sherrill Washington State 1 1976 0 1 0 .000
Warren Powers Washington State 1 1977 0 1 0 .000
Jim Walden Washington State 9 1978–1986 3 6 0 .333
Dennis Erickson Washington State 2 1987–1988 1 1 0 .500
Mike Price Washington State 14 1989–2002 3 11 0 .214
Bill Doba Washington State 5 2003–2007 3 2 .600
Paul Wulff Washington State 4 2008–2011 1 3 .250
Mike Leach Washington State 6 2012–2017 1 5 .167


Not sure why the pre-1945 results aren't there. Bill Doba was the most successful Cougar Coach against the mutts.

Looks like we were 9-22-6 prior to 1945
 
CougEd said:
Living in the Seattle area the Apple Cup has become a joke. Huge Mellon laughed at the simplistic nature of our system both offense and defense and how there has been the same playbook for the last three years and nothing added. It is tough listening to people laugh when they talk about what this rivalry is turning into. It is tough to hear Chris Peterson owns Mike Leach.

I didn't go to the stadium on Saturday cause I knew we would make Browning look like an All Pac 12 QB, and they would make Luke Falk look like ...well...like we have looked the last four Apple Cups.

I am a person of expectations. And I have now lowered mine to the following. For next year I would be ok with being 5-7 and being in 10 points of the Dawgs in the last five minutes of the game.
Click to expand...

How much did Pete change UW's offense for the Stanford game ?

Sure saw a lot of Browning rolling right and then spinning until toward the end of the game he literally spun himself into the ground. Not kidding on that one

See more and more the reason why UW has so little respect nationally . They play a cupcake non-conference schedule , can not win meaningful games against USC or Stanford , but when they can get the upper-hand on what most see as an over-achieving WSU team they beat their chest.

Hope that they draw Okie State in the Alamo Bowl. I'll be there. It will be fun to see what they think of that same air raid offense when you add serious speed and a strong armed QB with good footwork.
 
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Loyal Coug said:
Hit the bong a lot before you post there Cougatron? :D

Thank goodness for Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Cup#Coaching_records

Head Coach Team Games Seasons Wins Losses Ties Pct.
Phil Sarboe Washington State 6 1945–1949 2 4 0 .333
Forest Evashevski Washington State 2 1950–1951 1 1 0 .500
Al Kircher Washington State 4 1952–1955 2 2 0 .500
Jim Sutherland Washington State 8 1956–1963 2 6 0 .250
Bert Clark Washington State 4 1964–1967 1 3 0 .250
Jim Sweeney Washington State 8 1968–1975 3 5 0 .375
Jackie Sherrill Washington State 1 1976 0 1 0 .000
Warren Powers Washington State 1 1977 0 1 0 .000
Jim Walden Washington State 9 1978–1986 3 6 0 .333
Dennis Erickson Washington State 2 1987–1988 1 1 0 .500
Mike Price Washington State 14 1989–2002 3 11 0 .214
Bill Doba Washington State 5 2003–2007 3 2 .600
Paul Wulff Washington State 4 2008–2011 1 3 .250
Mike Leach Washington State 6 2012–2017 1 5 .167


Not sure why the pre-1945 results aren't there. Bill Doba was the most successful Cougar Coach against the mutts.

Looks like we were 9-22-6 prior to 1945
Click to expand...


Nah not hitting it. I was talking about the first six games against the huskies. Leach 1-5 Price 2-4

and I was 1 game off on Price's tenure 3-11 vs 3-12. I knew he only won it like 3 times.
 
SaveFerris said:
I'll take 9-3, in the Pac 12 North conversation, and a blowout in AC in perpetuity over 5-7 and within in shouting distance for AC. We are barely through 1 true 5-year cylce with Leach. AC is important but I don't understand why for some of us it's everything.

They were better, they blew us up, it sucks, move on.
Click to expand...
The AC is important to many of us old timers because for many years it was our bowl game, our lone shot at self respect.
 
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CougEd said:
That's why he looked like all Pac 12

Tell me which teams you are talking about and maybe I can answer your question.
Click to expand...
I was requesting your assessment of which team is most like UW in the Pac12. I have an opinion on this, but wanted to get yours....and then why we've had success against them and not UW.
 
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Cougatron said:
Nah not hitting it. I was talking about the first six games against the huskies. Leach 1-5 Price 2-4

and I was 1 game off on Price's tenure 3-11 vs 3-12. I knew he only won it like 3 times.
Click to expand...

Price's record in the AC was tainted by our decision to make a deal with Satan to go to the Rose Bowl. Our payment for that success was five straight losses to the mutts under Price. His record was 3-7 prior to our deal with the devil. Feel's like we have the same contract now.
 
Flatlandcoug said:
Price's record in the AC was tainted by our decision to make a deal with Satan to go to the Rose Bowl. Our payment for that success was five straight losses to the mutts under Price. His record was 3-6 prior to our deal with the devil. Feel's like we have the same contract now.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for you. :p
 
CougEd said:
Living in the Seattle area the Apple Cup has become a joke. Huge Mellon laughed at the simplistic nature of our system both offense and defense and how there has been the same playbook for the last three years and nothing added. It is tough listening to people laugh when they talk about what this rivalry is turning into. It is tough to hear Chris Peterson owns Mike Leach.

I didn't go to the stadium on Saturday cause I knew we would make Browning look like an All Pac 12 QB, and they would make Luke Falk look like ...well...like we have looked the last four Apple Cups.

I am a person of expectations. And I have now lowered mine to the following. For next year I would be ok with being 5-7 and being in 10 points of the Dawgs in the last five minutes of the game.
Click to expand...
 
Your Husky envy clouds any sense of logic. We need to beat them yes but I don’t relish returning to the days that a beating of UW every 3 or 4 years while losing 7-8 games a year simply “makes” our season.
 
kayak15 said:
The AC is important to many of us old timers because for many years it was our bowl game, our lone shot at self respect.
Click to expand...
I am closing in on 50 and been a Coug my entire life. Never really understood that mentality as much as I have always hated the UW. I could see it in the 80s and maybe 90s but haven't we moved passed that at this point?
 
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Loyal Coug said:
Hit the bong a lot before you post there Cougatron? :D

Thank goodness for Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Cup#Coaching_records

Head Coach Team Games Seasons Wins Losses Ties Pct.
Phil Sarboe Washington State 6 1945–1949 2 4 0 .333
Forest Evashevski Washington State 2 1950–1951 1 1 0 .500
Al Kircher Washington State 4 1952–1955 2 2 0 .500
Jim Sutherland Washington State 8 1956–1963 2 6 0 .250
Bert Clark Washington State 4 1964–1967 1 3 0 .250
Jim Sweeney Washington State 8 1968–1975 3 5 0 .375
Jackie Sherrill Washington State 1 1976 0 1 0 .000
Warren Powers Washington State 1 1977 0 1 0 .000
Jim Walden Washington State 9 1978–1986 3 6 0 .333
Dennis Erickson Washington State 2 1987–1988 1 1 0 .500
Mike Price Washington State 14 1989–2002 3 11 0 .214
Bill Doba Washington State 5 2003–2007 3 2 .600
Paul Wulff Washington State 4 2008–2011 1 3 .250
Mike Leach Washington State 6 2012–2017 1 5 .167


Not sure why the pre-1945 results aren't there. Bill Doba was the most successful Cougar Coach against the mutts.

Looks like we were 9-22-6 prior to 1945
Click to expand...

Heh - responding to myself. I think in a sober state nobody wants to go 4-8 every year in exchange for beating the mutts. Let's not forget that we were 7-0 at home this season - that is more important for attendance and $ than Apple Cup. BUT, losing 5 in a row is unacceptable. 8 of the last 9 (and only thanks to a miracle comeback) is unacceptable. Heck, Jim Sweeney was 3-5 against uw. Walden was 3-6, and won 3 of 4 in his heyday. We can thank Gilbertson and Ty for Doba's record against uw, but I digress.

The minimum standard in my opinion is to win at least 1/3 of the time, not far from our historical average. AND, be competitive EVERY year. Regardless of what our or their records are other wise.
 
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How_did_this_happen? said:
That was a joke Ed.

Can you address my questions?
Click to expand...
Ok went deep in the thread to see what question or questions you had. Sorry yesterday was about me venting after having to live among the crap we take after the beat down.

USC, UCLA and Stanford are the three teams that they most resemble in style. Why do we have more success against those teams than UW? Matchup. Coaching.

Hercules is in contention for not only being the Pac 12 defensive player of the year, but the National defensive player of the year. UW unlike Stanford took Hercules biggest strength and used it against him. They cut down their splits so he wasn't at the point of the attack every time they handed off the ball.

If Stanford cut down their splits and went big against WSU they probably would have had more success. Plus Stanford had a rookie QB. Stanford for the last three or four years has been very one dimensional. They are the opposite of Leach. They make it easier to defense their run game for WSU as they don't throw all that well or all that often.

USC? Again coaching. Sam Darnold was a mess when we played them. In 2013 who was their QB? They wanted to keep throwing the ball even though Jones ripped off a 70 plus TD run. USC's weakness was their oline, and we were able to exploit that and made Darnold look like he needed to come back for two years.

UW-they used what we do best against us, made Hercules look ordinary. We had no idea how to contain their best defensive player in Vea. Personally, if they were going to play a three man line I would have done a couple of things. I would have shortened the guard center split so our center had a prayer with a GOOD double team.

Second, I would have taken the five yards they were giving Falk on every down to run it.

What UW gets on defense is the pass to the backs is not the same as a run. Their linebackers only need to read coverage. They need to make sure they are in the right zones. There is no threat to run the ball even though it is 5 against three, there is no threat of Falk running the ball.

Finally the UW has confidence they can stop us. Peterson allows the emotions and passions from the rivalry to happen and stop being steady Eddie and simply "worry" about execution. They execute with passion and purpose. That is why they have owned us the last four years.
 
CougEd said:
Ok went deep in the thread to see what question or questions you had. Sorry yesterday was about me venting after having to live among the crap we take after the beat down.

USC, UCLA and Stanford are the three teams that they most resemble in style. Why do we have more success against those teams than UW? Matchup. Coaching.

Hercules is in contention for not only being the Pac 12 defensive player of the year, but the National defensive player of the year. UW unlike Stanford took Hercules biggest strength and used it against him. They cut down their splits so he wasn't at the point of the attack every time they handed off the ball.

If Stanford cut down their splits and went big against WSU they probably would have had more success. Plus Stanford had a rookie QB. Stanford for the last three or four years has been very one dimensional. They are the opposite of Leach. They make it easier to defense their run game for WSU as they don't throw all that well or all that often.

USC? Again coaching. Sam Darnold was a mess when we played them. In 2013 who was their QB? They wanted to keep throwing the ball even though Jones ripped off a 70 plus TD run. USC's weakness was their oline, and we were able to exploit that and made Darnold look like he needed to come back for two years.

UW-they used what we do best against us, made Hercules look ordinary. We had no idea how to contain their best defensive player in Vea. Personally, if they were going to play a three man line I would have done a couple of things. I would have shortened the guard center split so our center had a prayer with a GOOD double team.

Second, I would have taken the five yards they were giving Falk on every down to run it.

What UW gets on defense is the pass to the backs is not the same as a run. Their linebackers only need to read coverage. They need to make sure they are in the right zones. There is no threat to run the ball even though it is 5 against three, there is no threat of Falk running the ball.

Finally the UW has confidence they can stop us. Peterson allows the emotions and passions from the rivalry to happen and stop being steady Eddie and simply "worry" about execution. They execute with passion and purpose. That is why they have owned us the last four years.
Click to expand...

Ed...I think the answer is Utah.
 
CougEd said:
Because?
Click to expand...

Excellent special teams. Tough, hard-hitting defense. Great D-line. Usually excellent O-line (not so much this season). Run first offense..with tough RBs. Good passing attack.

Seems a lot like UW, no?

Certainly not UCLA. Furd? Sure. USC? I could see that. No way on UCLA though.
 
CougEd said:
Hercules is in contention for not only being the Pac 12 defensive player of the year, but the National defensive player of the year. UW unlike Stanford took Hercules biggest strength and used it against him. They cut down their splits so he wasn't at the point of the attack every time they handed off the ball.
Click to expand...
the other thing that uw's run game did (and i'm not sure if this was scheme, luck, or a combo of the two) that neutralized herc and the rest of the front was show an uncanny ability to run away from the slant. i don't know how many times i saw our dline slant only to have the rb run right to the spot they slanted away from. part of that is a good job by the rb finding the lane, but part of that is an undersized, attacking defense trying to jump the running play and leaving their ass uncovered (ie, lbs and safeties not there to fill the space left by the dline).
 
How_did_this_happen? said:
Excellent special teams. Tough, hard-hitting defense. Great D-line. Usually excellent O-line (not so much this season). Run first offense..with tough RBs. Good passing attack.

Seems a lot like UW, no?

Certainly not UCLA. Furd? Sure. USC? I could see that. No way on UCLA though.
Click to expand...

Well honestly no. In terms of toughness, sure I get that comparison. Utah
brettcraycraft51 said:
the other thing that uw's run game did (and i'm not sure if this was scheme, luck, or a combo of the two) that neutralized herc and the rest of the front was show an uncanny ability to run away from the slant. i don't know how many times i saw our dline slant only to have the rb run right to the spot they slanted away from. part of that is a good job by the rb finding the lane, but part of that is an undersized, attacking defense trying to jump the running play and leaving their ass uncovered (ie, lbs and safeties not there to fill the space left by the dline).
Click to expand...
That was absolutely part of the game plan. They showed on the Pac 12 Network how they essentially let them slant went backside on it.
 
How_did_this_happen? said:
Excellent special teams. Tough, hard-hitting defense. Great D-line. Usually excellent O-line (not so much this season). Run first offense..with tough RBs. Good passing attack.

Seems a lot like UW, no?

Certainly not UCLA. Furd? Sure. USC? I could see that. No way on UCLA though.
Click to expand...
Kyle W is the Buddy Ryan of college football. His offense has no sophistication. None. Utah's defense is much different but I agree they normally get good play up front.

But Peterson is light years in front of KW on the offensive side of the ball. It is what keeps Utah where they are. when was the last time a good QB played for them? 2004?
 
CougEd said:
Kyle W is the Buddy Ryan of college football. His offense has no sophistication. None. Utah's defense is much different but I agree they normally get good play up front.

But Peterson is light years in front of KW on the offensive side of the ball. It is what keeps Utah where they are. when was the last time a good QB played for them? 2004?
Click to expand...

Agree that UW is more dynamic offensively. However, Utah is run first with excellent running backs, just as UW is. Both are excellent on special teams. Both are tough defensive teams that hit hard.

Furd is not that dynamic on offense if you want to compare with UW and Utah...but you considered them most similar to UW.

So again, my point is why have we been more successful vs Utah, USC, Furd...and not against UW? I think you've answered this...and it's mostly passion and mostly mental. Agree?
 
How_did_this_happen? said:
Agree that UW is more dynamic offensively. However, Utah is run first with excellent running backs, just as UW is. Both are excellent on special teams. Both are tough defensive teams that hit hard.

Furd is not that dynamic on offense if you want to compare with UW and Utah...but you considered them most similar to UW.

So again, my point is why have we been more successful vs Utah, USC, Furd...and not against UW? I think you've answered this...and it's mostly passion and mostly mental. Agree?
Click to expand...
Coaching, matchups, and passion. Utah doesn't drop 8 in coverage. As good as they are up front, they don't have NG that tossed our center around like a rag doll. UW coaches to take away what we do best, a Bill Belichek move. And Utah, USC and Stanford don't.
 
CougEd said:
Coaching, matchups, and passion. Utah doesn't drop 8 in coverage. As good as they are up front, they don't have NG that tossed our center around like a rag doll. UW coaches to take away what we do best, a Bill Belichek move. And Utah, USC and Stanford don't.
Click to expand...

So Shaw and Whittingham (a very good defensive coach) aren't smart enough? They aren't as smart as UW's coaches?
Also, I'm not talking about just this season. Utah had a beastly defensive line when we beat them in SLC a few seasons ago. Some NFL-level guys.
Help me out. I'm not seeing consistency in your logic here.
 
How_did_this_happen? said:
Help me out. I'm not seeing consistency in your logic here.
Click to expand...
64437734.jpg
 
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