OT - Goats vs Sea Lions

[Loyal Coug]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

 

[Observer11]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

I ask myself that every time I sit in traffic....is it ethical to kill the invasive Californians? Or am I morally obligated to do so to preserve the natural state of things?

 

[79COUG]

Because sea lions are cuter than mountain goats.
These decisions are made emotionally not intellectually....

 

[Coug95man2]

Because sea lions are cuter than mountain goats.
These decisions are made emotionally not intellectually....

lol. I go hiking/camping up in the Eagles (North East Oregon) quite a bit. There's quite a few mountain goats up there. I dispute your cast on whom is cuter. It's opposite. Sea Lions are ugly as hell. Mountain Goats are pretty awesome.

Side note: If you take a leak near mountain goat habitat, many times they'll be there the next day licking in that spot... They are always short on salt. So pee as close to camp as you feel comfortable and you'll have mountain goats within spitting range. They are incredible animals.

 

[rufffrider]

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

I think one of the clinchers for goat removal on the Olympic Peninsula is human safety. As goat numbers keep climbing there, interactions with humans will continue to climb and the number of interactions with nasty endings will go up (the goats convene on hikers rather than run from them to get access to the salts and minerals they bring in). As far as the lethal aspects, the terrain makes it impossible to ensure non-lethal removal. I'd be surprised if they could keep it anywhere close to as low as 10% death losses.

The inability to justify lethal removal of sea lions on a larger scale is the head-scratcher for me.

 

[79COUG]

lol. I go hiking/camping up in the Eagles (North East Oregon) quite a bit. There's quite a few mountain goats up there. I dispute your cast on whom is cuter. It's opposite. Sea Lions are ugly as hell. Mountain Goats are pretty awesome.

Side note: If you take a leak near mountain goat habitat, many times they'll be there the next day licking in that spot... They are always short on salt. So pee as close to camp as you feel comfortable and you'll have mountain goats within spitting range. They are incredible animals.

I see your point. But I believe a lot of people think baby seals being clubbed to death when they hear sea lion thinning.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Ran into goats at the peak of Ellinor years ago. They weren't shy, but they weren't aggressive either.

 

[rufffrider]

I drew a hunting tag for a mountain goat a couple years ago. The only tag in that unit, the area included a very popular hike that ended atop a peak frequented by goats (and was popular because of the goats). Each of the past couple years, the trail has been closed at one time or another because of the increasingly aggressive nature of the goats. It was suggested more than once during my hunting season that I'd make a lot of people happy if I'd use my tag to rid the peak of a goat that had become a problem and safety hazard. When the goats become habituated to people, it turns into a no-win situation for the animal management folks.

During the course of my hunt, I spent an immense amount of time in some pretty difficult country and hours watching different billies and nannies thru a spotting scope. They are very docile looking animals -- right up until they decide not to be. I watched one old billie turn on the equivalent of a teenager in the blink of an eye for some transgression, and he stopped just short of killing the younger one on the spot. As it was, the younger one left the cliff gored, battered, and bloodied on half his body -- don't know if he survived the incident or not, but that was the last time I saw that billie that season.

Awesome animals to see and observe. After spending a lot of time watching them, I'd rather not find myself in close quarters with one on cliffside trail.

 

[fingerdisco]

Because sea lions are cuter than mountain goats.
These decisions are made emotionally not intellectually....

Actually, there's something called the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which sea lions fall under the protections of--has nothing to do with how cute one or the other is.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Mountain goats are fun from a distance. Up close...or even not so close if you are downwind...they smell to high heaven. I once smelled a group of them coming down a draw when they were probably still 150-200' away. It was before I could hear them. Seals don't smell, though the rocks on which they hang out can be pretty rank if they are sharing with gulls.

 

[moxeecoug]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

 

[moxeecoug]

I was involved in the capture and relocation of big horn sheep and mountain goats early in my career and the 10% mortality rate sounds about right. The key is to quickly get them out of the nets and put this canvass bag over their head - forget what is called - to reduce stress and calm them down. Transplants happen all the time and the Fish and Game departments all over the west are very good at it.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I was involved in the capture and relocation of big horn sheep and mountain goats early in my career and the 10% mortality rate sounds about right. The key is to quickly get them out of the nets and put this canvass bag over their head - forget what is called - to reduce stress and calm them down. Transplants happen all the time and the Fish and Game departments all over the west are very good at it.

No no no. They are going to shoot the 10 (or 50) %. From helicopters. After they net the others.

Heck they could raise a bunch of money if they sold permits to kill the other goats. Lower our taxes. Capitalism in our Socialist state!

 

[79COUG]

Actually, there's something called the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which sea lions fall under the protections of--has nothing to do with how cute one or the other is.

Regardless of whether or not they become a nuisance or a problem...

 

[fingerdisco]

Regardless of whether or not they become a nuisance or a problem...

Well it is a problem of our making, the sea lions are just being resourceful and taking advantage of a food supply that we put there for them by road blocking fish at massive chunk of concrete. We always want to blame the proximate cause rather than the ultimate cause, which is almost always people.

 

[79COUG]

Well it is a problem of our making, the sea lions are just being resourceful and taking advantage of a food supply that we put there for them by road blocking fish at massive chunk of concrete. We always want to blame the proximate cause rather than the ultimate cause, which is almost always people.

I get that. And you're probably right. However the same could be said regarding the goat problem. So why thin the goats and not the sea lions?

 

[fingerdisco]

I get that. And you're probably right. However the same could be said regarding the goat problem. So why thin the goats and not the sea lions?

Valid question—in general sense the situations are similar, but I guess the goats could be said to be invasive where the sea lions aren’t. Also, sea lions were once in need of protection, although they are fairly abundant now. I see the park service is going to relocate as many of the goats as they can, which they were doing with the sea lions for a while until they figured out they just come right back. Yet another conundrum we’ve created for ourselves where animals end up paying the price.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Valid question—in general sense the situations are similar, but I guess the goats could be said to be invasive where the sea lions aren’t. Also, sea lions were once in need of protection, although they are fairly abundant now. I see the park service is going to relocate as many of the goats as they can, which they were doing with the sea lions for a while until they figured out they just come right back. Yet another conundrum we’ve created for ourselves where animals end up paying the price.

The sea lions ARE invasive; they are not native to Bonneville dam.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Valid question—in general sense the situations are similar, but I guess the goats could be said to be invasive where the sea lions aren’t. Also, sea lions were once in need of protection, although they are fairly abundant now. I see the park service is going to relocate as many of the goats as they can, which they were doing with the sea lions for a while until they figured out they just come right back. Yet another conundrum we’ve created for ourselves where animals end up paying the price.

The sea lions ARE invasive; they are not native to Bonneville dam.

Apparently the goats wandered over to the Olympics from the Cascades. Not sure how they can call that invasive. I think the real issue is that they have become a nuisance (hiker was killed a couple years ago) to recreating humans. So let's kill 'em.

Actually, isn't the white man an invasive species brought over from Europe, along with the starlings? Hmmmmmm......

The sea lion thing is nuts. I seem to recall some years ago when the problem wasn't so bad that they trapped one and shipped him back to California from whence he came. The next year he showed back up. Summary: Shoot some sea lions to protect half the salmon run. OR, spend millions and millions barging them downstream, then rip out 4 dams along with their electricity production. Let's then replace that with coal burning electric plants.

And yes I am well read on the subject of the Snake River dams in general. Some argue that their production is "minimal", costs actually exceed benefits, etc. traffic on the rivers has declined, railroads can fill the need, blah blah. As with most things, an independent, non-opinionated analysis would sure be nice. However, the sea lion salmon depredation issue in indisputable. How about we fix that first, then argue about dams?

 

[fingerdisco]

The sea lions ARE invasive; they are not native to Bonneville dam.

Sea lions do enter river systems, and we basically created a freshwater ocean for them.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Sea lions do enter river systems, and we basically created a freshwater ocean for them.

Its much more complex than that, and you can find out if you do just a little research. Its not just an issue of "they dam made a smorgasbord so they went where the easy food was".

Dams - 1950's
Sea Lions - 2002 (observed) / 1980's estimated

You do the math.

 

[fingerdisco]

Its much more complex than that, and you can find out if you do just a little research. Its not just an issue of "they dam made a smorgasbord so they went where the easy food was".

Dams - 1950's
Sea Lions - 2002 (observed) / 1980's estimated

You do the math.

So you’re saying that sea lions would be present and chasing steelhead up a free flowing Columbia river where they would be the proverbial fish out of water regardless of whether or not steelhead are congregated at fish ladders?

 

[Loyal Coug]

Its much more complex than that, and you can find out if you do just a little research. Its not just an issue of "they dam made a smorgasbord so they went where the easy food was".

Dams - 1950's
Sea Lions - 2002 (observed) / 1980's estimated

You do the math.

So you’re saying that sea lions would be present and chasing steelhead up a free flowing Columbia river where they would be the proverbial fish out of water regardless of whether or not steelhead are congregated at fish ladders?

Yeah Bleed, what is your point? And if you pointed us to this research you speak of, it would help. How about dumbing down this complex issue for us as well?

And I'm not jumping on you or your point (whatever it is). It's that these open ended comments don't help the conversation. Summarize the point/issue, give us a link to go read, whatever. It's like our pal Ed and his "answer a question with a question" MO.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Yeah Bleed, what is your point? And if you pointed us to this research you speak of, it would help. How about dumbing down this complex issue for us as well?

And I'm not jumping on you or your point (whatever it is). It's that these open ended comments don't help the conversation. Summarize the point/issue, give us a link to go read, whatever. It's like our pal Ed and his "answer a question with a question" MO.

You can go to the ODFW site, the WDFW site, google search, whatever.

What do you want to know? Its another case of humans screwing sh!t up and its complex; from putting the sea lions on the endangered list, to the southern shores being over fished and forcing them north, to el nino conditions putting pressure on them due to less prey, the MMPA preventing humans from managing it before it got out of hand... Like I said, there are a ton of factors that have created the situation, and fish pooling up at the dam is at the bottom of the list.

Personal opinion is that they are over-populated now and need to be culled, but that won't prevent what has happened over the past 30 years from happening again, just reset the cycle. That may give us time to un-fck the situation that we'd made though, but that would assume you could get everyone on the same page as to a viable solution.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

So you’re saying that sea lions would be present and chasing steelhead up a free flowing Columbia river where they would be the proverbial fish out of water regardless of whether or not steelhead are congregated at fish ladders?

Before the dam there was Celilo Falls, and the fish pooled there. No sea lion problem back then, and the pickings were just as easy.

External pressures have caused this problem, and the Bonneville dam issue is the result of, not the cause of Sea Lions being where they are.

 

[Loyal Coug]

You can go to the ODFW site, the WDFW site, google search, whatever.

What do you want to know? Its another case of humans screwing sh!t up and its complex; from putting the sea lions on the endangered list, to the southern shores being over fished and forcing them north, to el nino conditions putting pressure on them due to less prey, the MMPA preventing humans from managing it before it got out of hand... Like I said, there are a ton of factors that have created the situation, and fish pooling up at the dam is at the bottom of the list.

Personal opinion is that they are over-populated now and need to be culled, but that won't prevent what has happened over the past 30 years from happening again, just reset the cycle. That may give us time to un-fck the situation that we'd made though, but that would assume you could get everyone on the same page as to a viable solution.

Well see, that was easy! Good background, thanks.

I guess at this point it would be nice if someone would decide what is more important - a few sea lions or up to half of the spawning population.

 

[fingerdisco]

Before the dam there was Celilo Falls, and the fish pooled there. No sea lion problem back then, and the pickings were just as easy.

External pressures have caused this problem, and the Bonneville dam issue is the result of, not the cause of Sea Lions being where they are.

If you’re comparing Cililo falls to the slack water pools and concrete fish ladders of the dams, than that’s pretty silly. Essentially what you just said is that the free-flowing Columbia River back in the day and the now Columbia Reservoir are the same in terms of escapability and risk of predation by sea lions because there were falls where fish congregated. I won't even bother to go into how the free-flowing river might have been different in terms of likelihood of use by sea lions compared to how it exists now.

I suppose if you want to claim its overpopulation of sea lions and ignore the fact that the river in its current state is light years away from what would be considered even marginal anadramous fish habitat should be, and does in fact create unnatural situations where steelhead and salmon are extremely vulnerable to predation, that's your choice.

 

[Coug90]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

Hadn't heard about the goat thing, but the sea lion problem is utterly ridiculous. Idiotic tree huggers protecting a species that doesn't need protecting anymore, and also protecting a stupid pod of killer whales who refuse to eat the sea lions, and instead also feast on fish. Brilliant plan, let's tip the food chain scale to protect multiple predators of one species who's numbers are becoming frighteningly low while the predators themselves are thriving.

Meanwhile, Wtf are the goats doing, licking too much pee off of rocks?

 

[fingerdisco]

Hadn't heard about the goat thing, but the sea lion problem is utterly ridiculous. Idiotic tree huggers protecting a species that doesn't need protecting anymore, and also protecting a stupid pod of killer whales who refuse to eat the sea lions, and instead also feast on fish. Brilliant plan, let's tip the food chain scale to protect multiple predators of one species who's numbers are becoming frighteningly low while the predators themselves are thriving.

Meanwhile, Wtf are the goats doing, licking too much pee off of rocks?

Go get em Nelson! Nuke them salmon eating bears while you’re at it.

 

[CPtheCoug]

Meanwhile, Wtf are the goats doing, licking too much pee off of rocks?

Apparently killing people:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/mountain-goat-kills-man-in-olympic-national-park/

 

[rufffrider]

Meanwhile, Wtf are the goats doing, licking too much pee off of rocks?

For the more aggressive goats looking for salts, sometimes they don't wait until the pee hits the rocks, or the potato chips leave the fingers before they go after them.

 

[GrayOnGray]

Much of the problem with the Mountain Goats comes from people misunderstanding what it means to be a wild animal. Just because you see them and they look so awesome, doesn't mean they want to be your friend.

As for the comment about pee, you don't want these things in your camp. It's a no win situation.

On a side note, I remember picking up a small piece of shed mt. goat hair, cupping it in my hands. It amazed me how quickly the temperature in my hand went up.

 

[Cougar Jon]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

The natives need to go open season on the sea lions and take out the population, of course they won’t though since it’s not profitable.

The amount of sea lions in Washington now is ridiculous compared to 20 years ago and seem to be more aggressive. I never used to hear about fishermen getting their fish taken multiple times while hooked up. I finally had it happen to me about 3 years ago fishing for salmon.

 

[Cougar Jon]

If you’re comparing Cililo falls to the slack water pools and concrete fish ladders of the dams, than that’s pretty silly. Essentially what you just said is that the free-flowing Columbia River back in the day and the now Columbia Reservoir are the same in terms of escapability and risk of predation by sea lions because there were falls where fish congregated. I won't even bother to go into how the free-flowing river might have been different in terms of likelihood of use by sea lions compared to how it exists now.

I suppose if you want to claim its overpopulation of sea lions and ignore the fact that the river in its current state is light years away from what would be considered even marginal anadramous fish habitat should be, and does in fact create unnatural situations where steelhead and salmon are extremely vulnerable to predation, that's your choice.

That’s laughable, the hanford reach area had record runs 5 or so years ago. The dam excuse is a way for the tree huggers to take them down. The reason for low runs on salmon is commercial fishing, sea lions, and native netting on smaller rivers that aren’t the Columbia.

Places where silt got built up like the Elwha river you could build up that excuse with the habitat though. But there were also other problems with that.

 

[fingerdisco]

That’s laughable, the hanford reach area had record runs 5 or so years ago. The dam excuse is a way for the tree huggers to take them down. The reason for low runs on salmon is commercial fishing, sea lions, and native netting on smaller rivers that aren’t the Columbia.

Places where silt got built up like the Elwha river you could build up that excuse with the habitat though. But there were also other problems with that.

You're laughable.

 

[longtimecoug]

Here's a riddler for fellow PPW (People's Republic of Washington) residents:

So the Fish and Game/whoever folks are planning to start catching and relocating invasive mountain goats from the Olympic mountains to the Cascades. Many will also be killed - the article below says 10%, but I read another article (S-T I think) that stated it could be 50%.

Meanwhile, invasive sea lions are camped out below Bonneville Dam, eating the returning salmon. Officials are only allowed to kill a few. I've read estimates that say up to 50% of the returning Columbia salmon get eaten by the sea lions. Environmentalists, as we know, want to remove the Snake River dams to help the salmon. As the article states, they prefer this to eliminating/reducing the sea lions.

So - how come it is OK to kill goats, who while not native to the Olympics are certainly not out of their element, but it is not OK to kill sea lions, who are wayyy out of their element (from California) and are taking advantage of the dam to decimate the universally desirable salmon population?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article210540484.html

http://www.kptv.com/story/37883325/...-dam-continues-to-threaten-salmon-populations

sea lions are protected because they were once endangered, not so anymore.they recently captured several sea lions from below Willamette falls and relocated them back to california, most returned in just a few days. I think the ones that return are the ones that need to be eliminated, that should appeal to peoples sense of fairness since not all of them returned

 

[rufffrider]

https://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/sealion/

 

[Loyal Coug]

You're laughable.

https://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/sealion/

Disco - gee that was intelligent. Thanks for your contribution.

Ruff - thanks for the link. So it is high time to start some serious hunting.

Are sea lions edible? Can they be processed for their skin, oil, whatever? Let's find out. Establish a hunting season and sell permits. More capitalist revenue for our socialist state!

 

[fingerdisco]

Disco - gee that was intelligent. Thanks for your contribution.

Ruff - thanks for the link. So it is high time to start some serious hunting.

Are sea lions edible? Can they be processed for their skin, oil, whatever? Let's find out. Establish a hunting season and sell permits. More capitalist revenue for our socialist state!

Piss off, post nanny.

 

[AlwaysSpokanesFault]

Why do you guys consistently feed the troll?