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Pac-12 QB rankings post spring

Fish is the only one calling anyone a "dick" on this board for the record. If you were to say that every WSU QB is great because the offense takes 3 days to install....that would make you stupid in a very assertive way.
Come on, ed.
This, "it takes 3 days to install" thing has been mis-quoted for waaaay too long. First off, it's his "system" not his offense and ok, it can be installed in 3 days… That does NOT mean everyone gets it, understands it, runs it well, up to speed, has the schedule down, anything in 3 days. When CML says/said this, it's not like all of the sudden everyone knows his form of the Air Raid and is perfecting the nuances of it and it seems like some are trying to forward THIS concept (ed, are you trying to forward this concept? Sure seems like it)…

It takes 3 days to install, it could take 3 years for a player to "get it", depending on their comprehension level. That's an extreme but you get my point. Unless you know how he structures his practices, his play books, his film watching, his group meetings, his sideline, his player nutrition plans, his position coach responsibilities, etc. etc., (you know… his "system") or how it might change dependent on players and/or coaches, no one knows what he installed or how long it takes to grasp it.

So whenever you bring this up, I know you don't know what you're talking about, ed. So lets just drop the whole "3 days to install" schtick you bring up every once in a while... please.
 
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Chiming in late here but what these lists lack is a more comprehensive view.

USC will be good with a solid QB in Kessler, good receivers and a good O Line.

UCLA No real QB and questions everywhere else.

Arizona should be near the top but they do have to replace both Tackles

ASU. Berco is good if he is protected well Not too mobile so he will need solid O lIne play and they also lost their two best receivers from last year.

Utah. Poor QB and not that great at receiver should be much lower.

Oregon: Really a running team so should be viewed from that point of view.

CU Decent QB need better O Line and not too many receivers but a good one back in Spruce.

Oregon State: They should be last unproven QB and no matter what a step back from Mannion. Decent receivers but not great and they are all in a new system.

Cal: Very good and maybe the best QB , but their receivers are middle of the road. Good running backs which helps them.

Stanford: Not sold on Hogan although he has done well against us. He is kind of an inaccurate passer. Need to replace some in O line. I don's see them near the top

UW: Kind of think they will be a mess this year. Lindquist is ok but is kind of inaccurate when protected, so what will he be with less experience in the O LIne. Lost their best receiver, and may be in a lot of games where they are playing catch up. Should be close to last on this list.

WSU: Good very experienced O LIne. Very good group of experienced receivers. QB with some good experience running the system. I think Luke Falk will win the job this Fall and will perform at a level putting him near the top of the QB list by years end. If we get some defense, and much better special teams play we should be happy with the results.
High praise here for Golden, who tries to actually bump the discussion back to actual football.

I tend to agree with 1990 - this list is stupid and pointless. It's a puff piece just intended to create content while there's nothing of substance to discuss. But following Golden's lead, and in an attempt to support it, here's my 2 cents:

1. USC - Kessler is the most proven at the position at this point, with the most talent around him. The Trojan's QB situation looks pretty solid.
2. Cal - Goff is talented, and will get his numbers. He lost some targets and doesn't have a stud receiver to look to, but their offense is like ours - they don't need a star, they need solid depth. If they have it, he'll be OK. If not, he falls to the middle of the pack.
3. Arizona - Solomon is a stud. There's always the risk of a sophomore slump, but if that doesn't happen, he could go to #1. Should have much better support from the run game than Goff or Falk, and is a greater talent than Kessler.
4. Stanford - I'm not putting Hogan up here because I think he's that good. I don't, and he's not. But, he's a known quantity, and that's better than most teams have. He's a game manager for Stanford - and in that offense, that's OK.
5. ASU - Bercovici looked pretty good in relief - better than Falk did. Still, it was only a couple games, who knows what he'll do in a full season. Enough talent around him to minimize his mistakes though, so he gets a bit of an edge...and maybe he should be ahead of Hogan.
6/7. Oregon - Adams or Lockie? Either way, not really sure what they're going to get. Lockie has never really played, Adams has never played FBS (although he's looked good in a couple games against FBS). There's enough talent around them that the ducks will still be a bowl team, and that's why I'm putting them in the middle of the pack. The QB will decide what bowl they get.
6/7. UCLA - Two unknown quantities, no idea what will happen here. Should be a pretty decent team (although it would not surprise me at all if Mora/UCLA inexplicably implode), but QB is a complete mystery. I don't expect either of them will be an immediate star - a game manager type like Neuheisel isn't going to win games for them, he'll let the rest of the team do it. The freshman phenom may win some, but will also probably lose some. Also a likely bowl team based on team play, not dependent on the QB, but again the QB will decide which bowl.
8/9. WSU - Falk hasn't proved he's a star, he hasn't even proved he's consistent. He should be a bit better, but he'll be young and will make young mistakes. Might even cost us games. But, seems like he has the tools, should have good protection and good targets, is more of a threat with his legs than Halliday ever was. Might be a bowl team with good QB play, that's definitely not a certainty.
8/9. CU - Liufau hasn't proved to be a star either, but he was an upgrade over recent history, and CU is improving. If he can take care of the ball a bit better, they might sniff a bowl.
10. Utah - WIlson isn't a very good QB. Inconsistent. Even when he has a run game, he struggles to move the ball. Even when Utah has a decent team around him, he's the one who's most likely to keep his team out of a bowl...not necessarily due to mistakes, but due to plays he doesn't make. I'm only putting him at #10 because there there's too much uncertainty at UW and OSU.
11. UW - Almost no game experience at QB, and not all that much returning around him. Lots of holes to fill. I don't really expect to see the Huskies in a bowl, regardless of who plays QB.
12. OSU - Similar to UW, except they have zero returning experience. I don't see any reason to think the Beavers won't be this year's North cellar dweller.
 
Come on, ed.
This, "it takes 3 days to install" thing has been mis-quoted for waaaay too long. First off, it's his "system" not his offense and ok, it can be installed in 3 days… That does NOT mean everyone gets it, understands it, runs it well, up to speed, has the schedule down, anything in 3 days. When CML says/said this, it's not like all of the sudden everyone knows his form of the Air Raid and is perfecting the nuances of it and it seems like some are trying to forward THIS concept (ed, are you trying to forward this concept? Sure seems like it)…

It takes 3 days to install, it could take 3 years for a player to "get it", depending on their comprehension level. That's an extreme but you get my point. Unless you know how he structures his practices, his play books, his film watching, his group meetings, his sideline, his player nutrition plans, his position coach responsibilities, etc. etc., (you know… his "system") or how it might change dependent on players and/or coaches, no one knows what he installed or how long it takes to grasp it.

So whenever you bring this up, I know you don't know what you're talking about, ed. So lets just drop the whole "3 days to install" schtick you bring up every once in a while... please.
Of course it doesn't take just three days. Sometimes it takes years before it becomes second nature. I think if you re-read my initial post to Fro in response to his remark I was passive aggressive to a very simple question why he would rank Falk above two guys who had a lot of success my response may make more sense to you. It was a really simple straight forward question. Then in my response I wrote "this is what a passive aggressive response would look like" and I mentioned the three days to install. Yes, the whole three day to install an offense was always a joke. It is to this day.
 
Ah yes the selective memory duo let's see the record of what the 4 previous years were before Price came in and Leach.

Before Price
9-3 (Ericson)
3-7-1 (Ericson)
3-7-1 - Walden
4-7 - Walden

19 - 24 - 2 or a .446 win %
In his first 3 years Price was 13-20 or .393 %

Before Leach
4-8
2-10
1-11
2-11

9 - 40 or a .183 win %
In his first 3 years Leach is 12-25 or .324%

So to sum it up for you.

Price inherited a program that was coming off a 9 win season
The previous 4 years were 2.4 times better by average than what Leach got.
Price's first 3 years were worse by average than the previous 4 while Leach's was better
He had only 1 more win than Leach.

See the thing about numbers is they don't lie. They don't have an agenda, or an axe to grind, they don't practice hypocrisy, they just are facts, and the one thing charlatan, liars, and delusional people can't stand...are facts.
The funny thing is Tron what do those numbers have to do with 1990, 1991, and 1992? By the time 1992 rolled around, I think the Cougs had three Dennis recruits playing on defense. Ray Hall, came in as a prop 48, didn't play under Dennis, and was 215 when he got on campus. The other two Dt's were Eaton, a Price recruit, and Brain Forde, who was playing oline the year before. Then you throw in McClanahan.

On offense the two TE's and CJ Davis, and Shaumbe were recruited by Dennis. when you look at the "winning percentage" what does that tell you about any rebuild? Mike Price put together a team on band aids to get to 9-3. And what I mean by that is one injury the season would have turned out much different as they had zero depth. But they all stayed healthy, and sophomores played well in the back four. Some luck, sure.

The point is don't pretend like there wasn't a complete rebuild. It was. Again, you could argue USC was down, UW graduated a host of players, CAl went through a coaching change, Oregon was a bottom feeder. You could argue because of the times maybe WSU is a harder turn around than it was in 1992.

Also, when you point to "numbers", Price had two winning seasons in his first four. Personally, I think what Price did was amazing.
 
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Yes I was around for Price. And here's where your hypocrisy with 3-9 shines through.

4 times Price finished with a 3 win season of his 14 years. 28% To be exact.

8 times Price finished with a losing season. 57% of the Time.

It took him 4 years to get to the post season.

And even after Coaching for 9 years at the program. 3 TIMES the duration that Leach has had to setup a program... he posted the following.

Year 10 - 3-8
Year 11 - 3-9
Year 12 - 4-7

So when you start throwing fits about Leach who took us to a bowl game in year 2 and is having to rebuild from what was described as THE WORST teams in the BCS era by some..and bring up Price.I find you to be absolutely 100% stupid in all of your statements.

I loved Mike Price, but at the same time I remember what it was like when he was here. It wasn't Rose Bowls every year like you want to remember. There were a lot of rough years but it was clear he was always trying to build and move the program forward...even when it was bad. I see that in Leach now, and if only you would open your eyes you'd see the same thing.

I think that most of the people like myself aren't as concerned about the 3-9 record last year as we are about the idea that we are out of line for expecting a bowl game this year or next. We understand that given our disadvantages, we are not going to win big every season.

I absolutely HATE the assertion that Leach took over the WORST team in the BCS era. Paul Wulff coached two of the worst teams in the history of college football in 2008 and 2009. Nobody with a brain will argue that. 2010 was certainly one of the worst teams in our school history although you could see signs of life popping up. That 2011 squad and the guys on that team are not in any real discussion for worst teams in the BCS (or any other) era. That team went 4-8 with two down to the wire losses. Eight other BCS teams had worse records and eight other teams were either tied with WSU or within one game of us. Wulff, as bad as he was, and as much as he deserved to be let go, had put together a team that could at least compete with most of the teams we faced. The idea that four years later, it's ok to lean on the "worst BCS program" crutch is pathetic. You mention Price but you fail to point out that he had to absolutely wreck the team in 1990 because of all the bad seeds that Erickson had recruited. MCMW (more criminals more wins) was practically Erickson's personal motto. Despite that, WSU finished 9-3 in Price's fourth year and we were within one win of a Pac-10 title.

Leach is going to have bad years at WSU, even when he gets things going. It's hard to develop the depth to compete every year. Mike Riley is a damned fine coach but his teams finished with losing records four times in the past ten years. Most of us will be happy with that. Sprinkle in a 9 or 10 win season every now and again, keep us within reach of a bowl game until the final two weeks of the season in the bad years and get us a thrilling upset (preferably at home) every once in a while. That is NOT too much to ask. Every decent coach in the past 40 years at WSU was able to do that and Leach sure as hell needs to given the money we are throwing at him.
 
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I absolutely HATE the assertion that Leach took over the WORST team in the BCS era. Paul Wulff coached two of the worst teams in the history of college football in 2008 and 2009. Nobody with a brain will argue that.

Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.
 
That team went 4-8 with two down to the wire losses. Eight other BCS teams had worse records and eight other teams were either tied with WSU or within one game of us. Wulff, as bad as he was, and as much as he deserved to be let go, had put together a team that could at least compete with most of the teams we faced.

You and I see 2011 differently.
For one thing, we started 3-1, then went 1-7 in conference. Not good.
Look at our 4 wins. Two of the wins were against horrendous teams - Idaho State (who I believe had been 1-10 the previous year and went 2-9 in 2011...in the FCS), and UNLV (who was 2-11 in 2010, and went 2-10 in 2011). We beat a Colorado team that had no CBs on the field (I believe a WR and an RB played CB), and still probably should have won. And our 4th win was against ASU, in a game that the Sun Devils clearly did not show up for. They knew Erickson was on the way out, and they were not playing for him. Their defense laid down and let Halliday throw for almost 500 yards...and they still could have won.

Then look at our losses. We laid an egg against San Diego State, played OK at UCLA (against a team that wasn't very good), got blown out by Stanford, beat convincingly by Oregon State. The score was respectable against Oregon, but we were never a threat. We got rolled by Cal. Probably played our best game against Utah...then got dominated in the AC.

So...we beat 3 bad teams, and got an upset against a team that was underprepared. Managed to go down swinging twice against average to slightly better than average teams, and lost handily to everyone else. So it's a pretty weak 4-8. I don't recall who those 8 teams with worse records were, but I'd be willing to bet they were better than us.

When compared to 2008 - the year we shattered the Pac-10 record for points allowed in a season...the year we gave up 50+ 6 times, 60+ 4 times (the first BCS team to ever do that)...the year we were shut out 3 times in 4 games after going 280 games without a single shutout - then sure, 2011 was an improvement. But, I think those signs of life you refer to were pretty dim, and I'm not convinced they ever would have emerged from the muck.
 
I think that most of the people like myself aren't as concerned about the 3-9 record last year as we are about the idea that we are out of line for expecting a bowl game this year or next. We understand that given our disadvantages, we are not going to win big every season.

I absolutely HATE the assertion that Leach took over the WORST team in the BCS era. Paul Wulff coached two of the worst teams in the history of college football in 2008 and 2009. Nobody with a brain will argue that. 2010 was certainly one of the worst teams in our school history although you could see signs of life popping up. That 2011 squad and the guys on that team are not in any real discussion for worst teams in the BCS (or any other) era. That team went 4-8 with two down to the wire losses. Eight other BCS teams had worse records and eight other teams were either tied with WSU or within one game of us. Wulff, as bad as he was, and as much as he deserved to be let go, had put together a team that could at least compete with most of the teams we faced. The idea that four years later, it's ok to lean on the "worst BCS program" crutch is pathetic. You mention Price but you fail to point out that he had to absolutely wreck the team in 1990 because of all the bad seeds that Erickson had recruited. MCMW (more criminals more wins) was practically Erickson's personal motto. Despite that, WSU finished 9-3 in Price's fourth year and we were within one win of a Pac-10 title.

Leach is going to have bad years at WSU, even when he gets things going. It's hard to develop the depth to compete every year. Mike Riley is a damned fine coach but his teams finished with losing records four times in the past ten years. Most of us will be happy with that. Sprinkle in a 9 or 10 win season every now and again, keep us within reach of a bowl game until the final two weeks of the season in the bad years and get us a thrilling upset (preferably at home) every once in a while. That is NOT too much to ask. Every decent coach in the past 40 years at WSU was able to do that and Leach sure as hell needs to given the money we are throwing at him.

Four years after the fact, some Cougar fans continue mythologizing the great feats of 2011. The nice side of me hopes that such stupidity doesn't have too many Cougar fans in its grip, that perhaps these posts are the production of one sad mind with many message-board handles. Whatever the origin, those who continue choking this chicken ignore the obvious: the wins over hapless Idaho State and UNLV, the FOURTH-YEAR blow-out losses to Cal, Oregon State, Stanford, UW, Oregon, and San Diego State, and the fact the roster included a dearth of linemen on both sides of the ball and little speed and athleticism. As pointed out in a previous post, Cal, playing WRs in its d-backfield, and ASU having already mailed it in, were hardly landmark wins. And Utah won with a back-up QB (note that those who hail that "near win" dismiss WSU's near win last year against an Oregon team with a Heisman Trophy QB who played for a national title).
And while a smattering of players who went on to temporary stints on NFL practice squads may soak the undergarments of Paulie Annas, it in no way demonstrates the next coach had a foundation. That anyone still thinks so is quite laughable and probably deserving pity more than anything else.
 
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Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.

Great refutation of all things spongy-dumb. hahahaha
 
Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.
Beautiful, just beautiful Tron.
 
I think that most of the people like myself aren't as concerned about the 3-9 record last year as we are about the idea that we are out of line for expecting a bowl game this year or next. We understand that given our disadvantages, we are not going to win big every season.

I absolutely HATE the assertion that Leach took over the WORST team in the BCS era. Paul Wulff coached two of the worst teams in the history of college football in 2008 and 2009. Nobody with a brain will argue that. 2010 was certainly one of the worst teams in our school history although you could see signs of life popping up. That 2011 squad and the guys on that team are not in any real discussion for worst teams in the BCS (or any other) era. That team went 4-8 with two down to the wire losses. Eight other BCS teams had worse records and eight other teams were either tied with WSU or within one game of us. Wulff, as bad as he was, and as much as he deserved to be let go, had put together a team that could at least compete with most of the teams we faced. The idea that four years later, it's ok to lean on the "worst BCS program" crutch is pathetic. You mention Price but you fail to point out that he had to absolutely wreck the team in 1990 because of all the bad seeds that Erickson had recruited. MCMW (more criminals more wins) was practically Erickson's personal motto. Despite that, WSU finished 9-3 in Price's fourth year and we were within one win of a Pac-10 title.

Leach is going to have bad years at WSU, even when he gets things going. It's hard to develop the depth to compete every year. Mike Riley is a damned fine coach but his teams finished with losing records four times in the past ten years. Most of us will be happy with that. Sprinkle in a 9 or 10 win season every now and again, keep us within reach of a bowl game until the final two weeks of the season in the bad years and get us a thrilling upset (preferably at home) every once in a while. That is NOT too much to ask. Every decent coach in the past 40 years at WSU was able to do that and Leach sure as hell needs to given the money we are throwing at him.
Just curious who you think are all the bad seeds that Erickson recruited in his two years?
 
Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.
 
Of course it doesn't take just three days. Sometimes it takes years before it becomes second nature. I think if you re-read my initial post to Fro in response to his remark I was passive aggressive to a very simple question why he would rank Falk above two guys who had a lot of success my response may make more sense to you. It was a really simple straight forward question. Then in my response I wrote "this is what a passive aggressive response would look like" and I mentioned the three days to install. Yes, the whole three day to install an offense was always a joke. It is to this day.
Leach still says it takes 3 days to install the offense. It takes more to get it working smoothly. I read an article after last season where TCU offensive coordinator, Leach desciple Sonny Cumbie said it took three days to install it as well.

TCU went from a bottom Power 5 offense to a top Power 5 offense in one year. The same that always happened with Leach at each of his other stops not named WSU. Hmmmmm!!!! I wonder why?
 
Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.
Now you have my interest Tron...of course the ratings from recruiting gurus was horrible. It is always horrible. I think maybe once, maybe twice we were ranked in the top half of the conference. And I know that class in 1994 was a disaster.

But as to your players, all you are doing is listing players. I would even be willing to stipulate 1989 because of Broussard was a better situation. But I thought we were talking year four? Is there a Drew Bledsoe on the roster? How about Chad eaton or Torey Hunter? There may be, but we havent seen them.

But let's take your list and you tell me of all the starters you listed, how many were offensive lineman in 1989, since Erickson left Price with a stocked or efficient oline? But let's break it down and see if we come to some sort of agreement. Let's start with the QB position. Do you believe in 1989 Gossen, Garcia and Pattison were better QB's that Leach inherited? Then we will go to running back and Oline.
 
Leach still says it takes 3 days to install the offense. It takes more to get it working smoothly. I read an article after last season where TCU offensive coordinator, Leach desciple Sonny Cumbie said it took three days to install it as well.

TCU went from a bottom Power 5 offense to a top Power 5 offense in one year. The same that always happened with Leach at each of his other stops not named WSU. Hmmmmm!!!! I wonder why?
I wonder why to. Maybe you can shed light on it. He had a QB that is in the NFL, another one that went to camp and quit. He had a receiver who is in the NFL, a top performer in Dom WIlliams, plus two other functional receivers. He had Fullington who was in Green Bay, he had Rodgers who was drafted by the Falcons. Dahl, Boesch and Ecklund were on Campus. So in terms of players that got connected to the NFL I think Leach inherited as much as certainly Price inerited back in 1989. But maybe you can come up with another explanation. What probably is a bit more puzzling is how he takes these no names that clearly are of a bad pedigree to a bowl game, and when his players and recruits are called to action they rival the 2009 defense.
 
I wonder why to. L I think Leach inherited as much as certainly Price inerited back in 1989. e.

Well his offensive line averaged about 270 lbs and wasn't even 1 deep when he walked in the door.

The QBs he had. 1 just flaked on an NFL team mysteriously and was prone to have a manic playstyle. The other QB on an NFL roster ....

"Ryan says he split quarterback reps pretty evenly between the top three candidates: EJ Manuel, Matt Cassel, and Tyrod Taylor. Jeff Tuel appears to be on the outside of the competition looking in, early on."

Tuel could of I think have developed into a strong QB, but having his knee sprained in 2012, Collar bone broken in 2011 because someone didn't want to recruit an offensive line...and now has a 45.1 QB rating in the NFL. He left under developed, and unfortunately probably won't be able to stick around much longer.

Leach was handed a 9-40 team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting over those 4 years. You can cherry pick a good player here and there, but you need a lot more than a couple healthy good players to compete and we weren't even close to that, and with that O-line any QB we had was going to get rocked.

The reason TCU got it done quickly...

2015 - #34
2014 - #50
2013 - #30
2012 - #37

You can evolve a lot faster when you are just shy of the top quarter in recruiting...as opposed to the bottom quarter where we were with no o-line, under developed beat up QBs.
 
You're head is so far up Leach's ass its pathetic.

You act like Price inherited a 9 win team.That whole '88 team graduated with the exception of Swinton and Stallworth.
Utley and Dyko graduated.
We had a new Qb.

You act like this was a winning program. It wasnt , as your numbers suggest. We hadn't had a winning season in 7 yrs.

We are are in year 4 with Leach. Its his team, not Wulff's. Nice try though.

That Broussard guy wasn't too shabby....
 
I wonder why to. Maybe you can shed light on it. He had a QB that is in the NFL, another one that went to camp and quit. He had a receiver who is in the NFL, a top performer in Dom WIlliams, plus two other functional receivers. He had Fullington who was in Green Bay, he had Rodgers who was drafted by the Falcons. Dahl, Boesch and Ecklund were on Campus. So in terms of players that got connected to the NFL I think Leach inherited as much as certainly Price inerited back in 1989. But maybe you can come up with another explanation. What probably is a bit more puzzling is how he takes these no names that clearly are of a bad pedigree to a bowl game, and when his players and recruits are called to action they rival the 2009 defense.
When you say that Dahl was on campus, you meant Montana's. Right? Otherwise, it is another thing you have wrong. For someone who likes to think of himself as some kind of historian, you would think you would have this right. I mean, Dahl is still on campus and only transferred in a few years ago.

This is the same problem you always have. You always have part of the equation right to give a little legitimacy as to think you know what you are talking about. But, the problem is you almost always have things wrong.
 
Well his offensive line averaged about 270 lbs and wasn't even 1 deep when he walked in the door.

The QBs he had. 1 just flaked on an NFL team mysteriously and was prone to have a manic playstyle. The other QB on an NFL roster ....

"Ryan says he split quarterback reps pretty evenly between the top three candidates: EJ Manuel, Matt Cassel, and Tyrod Taylor. Jeff Tuel appears to be on the outside of the competition looking in, early on."

Tuel could of I think have developed into a strong QB, but having his knee sprained in 2012, Collar bone broken in 2011 because someone didn't want to recruit an offensive line...and now has a 45.1 QB rating in the NFL. He left under developed, and unfortunately probably won't be able to stick around much longer.

Leach was handed a 9-40 team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting over those 4 years. You can cherry pick a good player here and there, but you need a lot more than a couple healthy good players to compete and we weren't even close to that, and with that O-line any QB we had was going to get rocked.

The reason TCU got it done quickly...

2015 - #34
2014 - #50
2013 - #30
2012 - #37

You can evolve a lot faster when you are just shy of the top quarter in recruiting...as opposed to the bottom quarter where we were with no o-line, under developed beat up QBs.
The thing about Ed is that he always plays both sides of the fence. He will write 99 posts that are negative about Leach. But, he will write one saying that he was glad Leach was hired.

When Leach is successful, he will always say he knew it all the time and that he was not contradictory at all.
 
I wonder why we never hear Leach make sooo many excuses for not winning? Is anyone else getting tired of the endless droning of excuses by some fans? I think some here need to reread Geronimo for some perspective.

Price had a winning season his FIRST year. It's because he really was one of the best coaches of his era. Two conference CHAMPIONSHIPS and Rose Bowls, prove that.

Leach might get there one day... we all hope so. He certainly has advantages no other coach in WSU history has enjoyed in terms of prestige, facilities, freedom, budget, player/program exposure... every metric, really.

I can't help but wonder what might have been had Doba left Wulff better than the 10th, 8th, 11th ranked recruiting classes... and if Wulff didn't have to run so many...and if Wulff had a bigger than a D-1AA budget for staff... heck, I wonder why Moos hired him in the first place, to be quite honest.
 
I wonder why we never hear Leach make sooo many excuses for not winning? Is anyone else getting tired of the endless droning of excuses by some fans? I think some here need to reread Geronimo for some perspective.

Price had a winning season his FIRST year. It's because he really was one of the best coaches of his era. Two conference CHAMPIONSHIPS and Rose Bowls, prove that.

Leach might get there one day... we all hope so. He certainly has advantages no other coach in WSU history has enjoyed in terms of prestige, facilities, freedom, budget, player/program exposure... every metric, really.

I can't help but wonder what might have been had Doba left Wulff better than the 10th, 8th, 11th ranked recruiting classes... and if Wulff didn't have to run so many...and if Wulff had a bigger than a D-1AA budget for staff... heck, I wonder why Moos hired him in the first place, to be quite honest.

There's been confirmation that that would never of happened. If someone would of been on the same page as your post....he would of received the HC position SOMEWHERE. Does that stand to reason or is there some superior type of reasoning going on that you'd like to share?
 
That might be a bit of a chicken/egg debate. The Pac-12 had 5 teams in the top 20 passing offenses (plus UA at #21), and 3 of the top 10. WSU was #1 by a margin of more than 100 yards at 477 ypg. Cal and Oregon were also over 300 ypg. That really screws up the defensive numbers for the rest of the league. But the question becomes, were the defense numbers skewed because the offenses were good, or were the offensive numbers skewed because the defenses were bad? Tough to say.

Personally, I lean toward the offenses were that good and/or leaned heavily on the pass...because there were only 3 passing offenses who were not in the top half (Stanford, UW, and Utah), while 11 defenses were #90 or below. I think if the defenses were that bad, even Stanford, UW, and Utah would have been higher. But it's certainly debatable.

Either way, it's worth noting that of the teams we played, their average ranking in pass defense was #96. Stanford was #8, Rutgers #69, Utah #90, and everyone else was below #100. Consider also that the differences aren't that big - the difference between #50 and #100 on the rankings is only 36 yards.

Gross yardage allowed in the passing game isn't really the best way to analyze a pass defense's quality. I'd be more interested in sacks/hurries, interceptions, passes defensed, 3rd down efficiency, yards per attempt surrendered, etc. Basically pass efficiency defense (passer rating in reverse) combined with pass rush, passes defensed, ability to hold on 3rd down, and some fudge factor allowed for score margins (garbage time yards and teams being behind and throwing more as a result). There's no quick way to get that number, but if you did I"m sure many Pac defenses would look better nationally, while our defense might actually look worse.

Gross yardage and ypc are a little more useful looking at rushing defense but still imperfect.
 
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I wonder why we never hear Leach make sooo many excuses for not winning? Is anyone else getting tired of the endless droning of excuses by some fans? I think some here need to reread Geronimo for some perspective.

Price had a winning season his FIRST year. It's because he really was one of the best coaches of his era. Two conference CHAMPIONSHIPS and Rose Bowls, prove that.

Leach might get there one day... we all hope so. He certainly has advantages no other coach in WSU history has enjoyed in terms of prestige, facilities, freedom, budget, player/program exposure... every metric, really.

I can't help but wonder what might have been had Doba left Wulff better than the 10th, 8th, 11th ranked recruiting classes... and if Wulff didn't have to run so many...and if Wulff had a bigger than a D-1AA budget for staff... heck, I wonder why Moos hired him in the first place, to be quite honest.
Troll harder. Price had a roster full of Erickson imports and the remaining veterans of some decent line talent from Walden's last year or two, plus the offense was basically the same from one coach to the other. WSU had some Prop 48 kids, that doesn't really exist anymore. Price's first couple teams didn't lack for talent the way Leach's have up until now, they had more chemistry and consistency and discipline/penalty issues than anything else. Price has been the best coach WSU has had in the modern era, but the two coaches did NOT start from the same place regarding the state of the program. We were bad and trending down when Wulff started. By the time he was finished we had two years of SMU post death penalty quality football followed by a mediocrity that was worse than what Doba had been slapping together with duct tape and veteran quarterback play. I really don't see how people think anyone was unfair to Wulff, and comparisons with Leach are only useful as bait. Leach took Wulff's players to a bowl game in his second year. Sure last season wasn't as good, but Wulff couldn't have done that with his own players, whilebeing handed the softest possible schedule to achieve it and years to do things his way.

Every coaching regime has unique circumstances that need to be factored into how success is defined. We were going nowhere fast under Wulff. If we do less than .500 this year I'll start to wonder if the pirate experiment will work here, but even if it doesn't, the next guy will have a lot more to work with than what Leach was handed. Anybody insisting otherwise is either blinded by personal connections or trolling.
 
Yes so let's take a look at the recruiting during those years.

2008 - #87
2009 - #93 - To let you know how bad this was. Toledo, New Mexico, Western Michigan, FAU, Wyoming, UNLV all higher than us.
2010 - #91 - Outranked by powerhouses such as Akron, Western Kentucky, and New Mexico State.
2011 - #73 - Still behind Wyoming, Colorado State, and Indiana.

THAT is how bad it was in terms of not just what was on the field... but what was coming in. It was disastrously bad.

Now on to Price who did it all from nothing with just convicts as people like to think.

Returning contributors from the 9-3 88' Team Price Inherited

Broussard
Carr
Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis

But I'll take it further. Here's a longer list of some of the players Price had to work with that were on that 88 team.

Kevin Andal
Broussard
Carr
Rich Swinton
Wellsandt
Stallworth
CJ Davis
Jason Hanson
Randy Gray
John Diggs
Bush Lewis
Dan Webber
Kirk Westerfield
Lee Tilleman
Rod Olson
Rosevelt Noble
Rob Myers
Chris Moton
Mark Ledbetter
Tony Savage
Brad Gossen
Paul "I played OL but I don't need to recruit OL" Wulff
etc.


It's not even close in terms of what Leach was handed and what Price was handed. And yet Price only has 1 more win than Leach in his first 3 years.

Price was at least given an OL / run game, and it wasn't until his 4th year that HIS QB Bledsoe won 9 games in 1992.

Leach was handed a team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting for the entire country.
No O-Line
2 QBs that were both underdeveloped mentally and were beat up constantly (see lack of o-line)
and a thin defense and pretty much undisciplined team.

And yet you want Price like production...which he has done being only 1 game shy in his first 3 years. Despite the mess he walked into.


Most of the guys in your list were gone by 1990 and almost none of them were around in 1992 (Price's fourth year).

Broussard, Wellstandt, Gossen, Stallworth, Gray, myers, ledbetter, savage and Wulff were all gone after 1989. Lewis Bush and CJ Davis are probably the only two guys on your list that were left in 1992. Mike Price had success in 1992 (his fourth year) with guys he recruited. He had gutted the team before that because he had too many guys that were there for themselves and not for WSU. I was in school from 1989 to 1993 and I saw firsthand the discord and mayhem that Erickson left behind. You can beat up on Tuel all you want, but the real truth of the matter is that he did more in the NFL than every QB on the roster that Erickson left behind. Hell, Aaron Garcia was a pretty good QB and he didn't get the cup of tea that Tuel did. Because some people here have an agenda where everything related to Wulff has to be ridiculed, they refuse to do a fellow Coug the justice of supporting his efforts. The hate of Wulff over-rides their ability to support a fellow alum. We should be freaking ashamed of that. This isn't about Leach or Wulff. It's sad that fans on this board expend so much energy rooting against one of their own.

I agree that the recruiting was suspect and the OL recruiting was a travesty. Nobody denies that. We were still a bottom tier Pac-12 team but we finished with a better record than Oregon State and Colorado and had the same record as Arizona. We were not the worst BCS program in the country at that point. If Wulff is such a terrible freakin' coach, how is it that his 2011 team had a better record than 2 out of 3 of Leach's teams? For the comment above about us finishing 1-7. You are very correct on that. Failing to finish against UCLA and not getting that extra yard against Utah are the reasons that Wulff needed to get fired. In year four, a coach needs to have his football team in the position to win those games and get to bowl eligibility. Close doesn't count and playing better than expected against Oregon in 2011 meant jack sh!t at the end of the season. We still lost by two touchdowns. Still, for all of the whining above about recruiting, Wulff, a terrible coach based on what I hear, was able to get that ragtag group of guys to the point where they believed they had a shot at success.

What's ironic about this whole conversation is that when I suggest that we should expect Leach to get our team to bowl eligibility in year four, I'm saying that he should be held to the same standard that you people are holding Wulff to. You reply with, "But Wulff sucked so bad that Leach shouldn't be expected to do anything!". If Wulff needed to be fired in year four for failing to make a bowl game, it's important for people to realize that Leach should be held to the same standard. Wulff left the program in a position where immediate success wasn't going to happen. Frankly, getting to a bowl game in 2013 was an impressive feat. Failing to get to a bowl game in 2015 will be just as an impressive of a failure. Get off the Wulff crutch. Coaches that are worth supporting aren't making excuses in year four about the other guy. It's freaking lame that people here are doing so. I'm not talking about winning the conference. I'm saying that if Mike Leach is really worth over $2 million per year, we should be able to beat an FCS team (PSU), a bottom tier MWC team (Wyoming), a middle to lower tier B1G team (Rutgers), two bottom feeder Pac-12 programs (CU and OSU) and get at least one win against Cal or UW. I believe that we are capable of it and we should be extremely disappointed if we fail.
 
Most of the guys in your list were gone by 1990 and almost none of them were around in 1992 (Price's fourth year).

Broussard, Wellstandt, Gossen, Stallworth, Gray, myers, ledbetter, savage and Wulff were all gone after 1989. Lewis Bush and CJ Davis are probably the only two guys on your list that were left in 1992. Mike Price had success in 1992 (his fourth year) with guys he recruited. He had gutted the team before that because he had too many guys that were there for themselves and not for WSU. I was in school from 1989 to 1993 and I saw firsthand the discord and mayhem that Erickson left behind. You can beat up on Tuel all you want, but the real truth of the matter is that he did more in the NFL than every QB on the roster that Erickson left behind. Hell, Aaron Garcia was a pretty good QB and he didn't get the cup of tea that Tuel did. Because some people here have an agenda where everything related to Wulff has to be ridiculed, they refuse to do a fellow Coug the justice of supporting his efforts. The hate of Wulff over-rides their ability to support a fellow alum. We should be freaking ashamed of that. This isn't about Leach or Wulff. It's sad that fans on this board expend so much energy rooting against one of their own.

I agree that the recruiting was suspect and the OL recruiting was a travesty. Nobody denies that. We were still a bottom tier Pac-12 team but we finished with a better record than Oregon State and Colorado and had the same record as Arizona. We were not the worst BCS program in the country at that point. If Wulff is such a terrible freakin' coach, how is it that his 2011 team had a better record than 2 out of 3 of Leach's teams? For the comment above about us finishing 1-7. You are very correct on that. Failing to finish against UCLA and not getting that extra yard against Utah are the reasons that Wulff needed to get fired. In year four, a coach needs to have his football team in the position to win those games and get to bowl eligibility. Close doesn't count and playing better than expected against Oregon in 2011 meant jack sh!t at the end of the season. We still lost by two touchdowns. Still, for all of the whining above about recruiting, Wulff, a terrible coach based on what I hear, was able to get that ragtag group of guys to the point where they believed they had a shot at success.

What's ironic about this whole conversation is that when I suggest that we should expect Leach to get our team to bowl eligibility in year four, I'm saying that he should be held to the same standard that you people are holding Wulff to. You reply with, "But Wulff sucked so bad that Leach shouldn't be expected to do anything!". If Wulff needed to be fired in year four for failing to make a bowl game, it's important for people to realize that Leach should be held to the same standard. Wulff left the program in a position where immediate success wasn't going to happen. Frankly, getting to a bowl game in 2013 was an impressive feat. Failing to get to a bowl game in 2015 will be just as an impressive of a failure. Get off the Wulff crutch. Coaches that are worth supporting aren't making excuses in year four about the other guy. It's freaking lame that people here are doing so. I'm not talking about winning the conference. I'm saying that if Mike Leach is really worth over $2 million per year, we should be able to beat an FCS team (PSU), a bottom tier MWC team (Wyoming), a middle to lower tier B1G team (Rutgers), two bottom feeder Pac-12 programs (CU and OSU) and get at least one win against Cal or UW. I believe that we are capable of it and we should be extremely disappointed if we fail.
Bull. I was in school when Erickson and Price were there. I knew several players. You have no idea, you really don't. It was not that players were in it for themselves. Erickson ran it like a professional program. Price came in like a clown riding horses, etc. He did that at Weber State and it worked at that small setting. It did not work at a Pac 10 school. Price matured and cut out the "cute" things he did at Weber and that is when he took off as the coach of WSU.

In other words, they began to take him serious when he was a coach, not a sideshow.
 
Most of the guys in your list were gone by 1990 and almost none of them were around in 1992 (Price's fourth year).

Broussard, Wellstandt, Gossen, Stallworth, Gray, myers, ledbetter, savage and Wulff were all gone after 1989. Lewis Bush and CJ Davis are probably the only two guys on your list that were left in 1992. Mike Price had success in 1992 (his fourth year) with guys he recruited. He had gutted the team before that because he had too many guys that were there for themselves and not for WSU. I was in school from 1989 to 1993 and I saw firsthand the discord and mayhem that Erickson left behind. You can beat up on Tuel all you want, but the real truth of the matter is that he did more in the NFL than every QB on the roster that Erickson left behind. Hell, Aaron Garcia was a pretty good QB and he didn't get the cup of tea that Tuel did. Because some people here have an agenda where everything related to Wulff has to be ridiculed, they refuse to do a fellow Coug the justice of supporting his efforts. The hate of Wulff over-rides their ability to support a fellow alum. We should be freaking ashamed of that. This isn't about Leach or Wulff. It's sad that fans on this board expend so much energy rooting against one of their own.

I agree that the recruiting was suspect and the OL recruiting was a travesty. Nobody denies that. We were still a bottom tier Pac-12 team but we finished with a better record than Oregon State and Colorado and had the same record as Arizona. We were not the worst BCS program in the country at that point. If Wulff is such a terrible freakin' coach, how is it that his 2011 team had a better record than 2 out of 3 of Leach's teams? For the comment above about us finishing 1-7. You are very correct on that. Failing to finish against UCLA and not getting that extra yard against Utah are the reasons that Wulff needed to get fired. In year four, a coach needs to have his football team in the position to win those games and get to bowl eligibility. Close doesn't count and playing better than expected against Oregon in 2011 meant jack sh!t at the end of the season. We still lost by two touchdowns. Still, for all of the whining above about recruiting, Wulff, a terrible coach based on what I hear, was able to get that ragtag group of guys to the point where they believed they had a shot at success.

What's ironic about this whole conversation is that when I suggest that we should expect Leach to get our team to bowl eligibility in year four, I'm saying that he should be held to the same standard that you people are holding Wulff to. You reply with, "But Wulff sucked so bad that Leach shouldn't be expected to do anything!". If Wulff needed to be fired in year four for failing to make a bowl game, it's important for people to realize that Leach should be held to the same standard. Wulff left the program in a position where immediate success wasn't going to happen. Frankly, getting to a bowl game in 2013 was an impressive feat. Failing to get to a bowl game in 2015 will be just as an impressive of a failure. Get off the Wulff crutch. Coaches that are worth supporting aren't making excuses in year four about the other guy. It's freaking lame that people here are doing so. I'm not talking about winning the conference. I'm saying that if Mike Leach is really worth over $2 million per year, we should be able to beat an FCS team (PSU), a bottom tier MWC team (Wyoming), a middle to lower tier B1G team (Rutgers), two bottom feeder Pac-12 programs (CU and OSU) and get at least one win against Cal or UW. I believe that we are capable of it and we should be extremely disappointed if we fail.
Well said Flat
 
When you say that Dahl was on campus, you meant Montana's. Right? Otherwise, it is another thing you have wrong. For someone who likes to think of himself as some kind of historian, you would think you would have this right. I mean, Dahl is still on campus and only transferred in a few years ago.

This is the same problem you always have. You always have part of the equation right to give a little legitimacy as to think you know what you are talking about. But, the problem is you almost always have things wrong.
Actually, I tried to choose my words very carefully, but not careful enough for you. . So let me rephrase for you. There were three olineman on campus to start spring ball, one which was transferring into WSU (very careful not to claim a Wulff recruit which is bothersome to many) without Leach's participation in recruiting the kid. He landed on WSU's doorstep by the football stork. How is that? So when spring ball started, without the benefit of a recruiting class, Ecklund, Dahl and Boesch were on campus.

So when Dahl transferred in it was in JAnuary of 2012.

Actually I never think of myself as a historian, so I am not sure what you are getting at. Not sure how me saying he had three olineman on campus is such a stretch for you as it is such an oddity a team has a mid year transfer, especially from a school like Montana and not a JC. The fact Dahl is in the program, without being recruited, and he was there for spring ball, which is hardly ever the case unless a graduates early from high school or is a mid year transfer from a JC. What Dahl did was an anomaly but it really doesn't change the premise, now does it. He got in spring ball, fall ball, and he was not recruited by Leach.
 
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Bull. I was in school when Erickson and Price were there. I knew several players. You have no idea, you really don't. It was not that players were in it for themselves. Erickson ran it like a professional program. Price came in like a clown riding horses, etc. He did that at Weber State and it worked at that small setting. It did not work at a Pac 10 school. Price matured and cut out the "cute" things he did at Weber and that is when he took off as the coach of WSU.

In other words, they began to take him serious when he was a coach, not a sideshow.
1990, what was the team GPA the first semester of 1988. Again, the team GPA. It was below 2. I think that is what some people are talking about. Take Ritchie Swinton. The kid had the grades to get into Harvard, chose WSU. He was ineligible for spring practice.

There was a little coke going on with that team as well, so maybe that is what Flat was referring to. But it is no question the GPA was a huge concern.
 
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Bull. I was in school when Erickson and Price were there. I knew several players. You have no idea, you really don't. It was not that players were in it for themselves. Erickson ran it like a professional program. Price came in like a clown riding horses, etc. He did that at Weber State and it worked at that small setting. It did not work at a Pac 10 school. Price matured and cut out the "cute" things he did at Weber and that is when he took off as the coach of WSU.

In other words, they began to take him serious when he was a coach, not a sideshow.

So, in four years, Price was able to mature and cut the cute things out and build a program that would finish 9-3 in year four, but Mike Leach, seasoned professional, is incapable of that? I lived next door to the one of the football players on the team and the impression that I got from him is that there were plenty of Erickson guys that didn't buy into Price at all. Of course, a big part of the problem was Bledsoe. A lot of the guys were pissed when Price abandoned Gossen and Garcia in favor of Drew. Price was right by the way.

We won in 1992 with a team filled with Price players not Erickson players. In 1994, that clown from Weber State had one of the best defenses in the country (maybe the best considering how terrible our offense was) and the foundation of that defense was built while he was being a clown. He certainly cut back on the goofiness over time but he was always a players coach who kept it lighthearted.

All banter aside, the point still stands. Good coaches don't make excuses about the other guy in year four. That crutch is old and busted. We have the schedule and the coach to be successful this year. If we aren't, that means that you have to start wondering about the coach and quit crying about Paul Wulff.
 
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The thing about Ed is that he always plays both sides of the fence. He will write 99 posts that are negative about Leach. But, he will write one saying that he was glad Leach was hired.

When Leach is successful, he will always say he knew it all the time and that he was not contradictory at all.
Really, what have I really said negative about Leach? Please point me in that direction. I have said probably 50 times, that Biggs and I talked in 2010 about Leach not being hired by anyone. I said if WU had the money they should fire Wulff and hire Leach.

I have also said when Leach was hired it was a certainty to me he would turn around the program and win . I thought there was 6 wins in that 2012 team. I think how he played CU really set the tone for the entire season. But I also gave him a pass because transitions are tough.

I have also said that 2014 rocked my certainty. In three seasons he has not had a winning season. He loses his QB, best DT, a functional DT, and some are expecting 6-7 wins. I just know what I saw in the secondary last year, and we lose Brown who many think was a good CB. So where I once thought it was a certainty I am now hopeful. But please don't pretend this is how you, Moos or anyone saw this playing out.
 
Really, what have I really said negative about Leach? Please point me in that direction. I have said probably 50 times, that Biggs and I talked in 2010 about Leach not being hired by anyone. I said if WU had the money they should fire Wulff and hire Leach.

I have also said when Leach was hired it was a certainty to me he would turn around the program and win . I thought there was 6 wins in that 2012 team. I think how he played CU really set the tone for the entire season. But I also gave him a pass because transitions are tough.

I have also said that 2014 rocked my certainty. In three seasons he has not had a winning season. He loses his QB, best DT, a functional DT, and some are expecting 6-7 wins. I just know what I saw in the secondary last year, and we lose Brown who many think was a good CB. So where I once thought it was a certainty I am now hopeful. But please don't pretend this is how you, Moos or anyone saw this playing out.
What about THAT, right there? Continuing to hammer a three year old game as though it doomed his program. So many negative things.

If you saw a six win team in 2012, you didn't anticipate the teams best player going full mutiny. Dealing with those kinds of lies- that sets a tone. Or you thought they had Pullman High's schedule.
 
What about THAT, right there? Continuing to hammer a three year old game as though it doomed his program. So many negative things.

If you saw a six win team in 2012, you didn't anticipate the teams best player going full mutiny. Dealing with those kinds of lies- that sets a tone. Or you thought they had Pullman High's schedule.
I didn't see you predicting 3-9.
 
Gross yardage allowed in the passing game isn't really the best way to analyze a pass defense's quality. I'd be more interested in sacks/hurries, interceptions, passes defensed, 3rd down efficiency, yards per attempt surrendered, etc. Basically pass efficiency defense (passer rating in reverse) combined with pass rush, passes defensed, ability to hold on 3rd down, and some fudge factor allowed for score margins (garbage time yards and teams being behind and throwing more as a result). There's no quick way to get that number, but if you did I"m sure many Pac defenses would look better nationally, while our defense might actually look worse.

Gross yardage and ypc are a little more useful looking at rushing defense but still imperfect.

Pass efficiency defense: ours was 158.01, good enough to rank #122. Western Kentucky, Idaho, and Eastern Michigan were worse than us...but not by much. UW, Cal, UA, and CU were also #100 or worse. UO, OSU, ASU, UCLA, and Utah were between #50 and #100, Stanford and USC were top 50.

Sacks: Tied at #42, 2.42/game. Ahead of UCLA, CU, and Cal, tied with OSU, behind the rest of the conference
interceptions: Tied (with CU and 2 others) at #121. Only Buffalo had fewer INTs.
passes defensed: Not available on NCAA website
3rd down efficiency: #56, allowing a conversion rate of 39.3%. USC, Utah, UW, and ASU were ahead of us
YPA: Can't sort on this, but we gave up 8.30 yards per attempt. I only count 11 teams that gave up as many or more.
YPC: Also can't sort on this, but we gave up 12.89. I count 21 teams worse than us.
Hurries: not available. Instead, I'll give you tackles for loss: we were #44 - UW, ASU, UA, Utah, Stanford, and OSU were better.

I'm not sure what kind of fudge factor you want, but the combined numbers tell me what we already knew - our secondary was awful, our pass rush was average.
 
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What about THAT, right there? Continuing to hammer a three year old game as though it doomed his program. So many negative things.

If you saw a six win team in 2012, you didn't anticipate the teams best player going full mutiny. Dealing with those kinds of lies- that sets a tone. Or you thought they had Pullman High's schedule.
That's negative, then yes, I guessit is. In analyzing what happened, if he ran out the clock instead of passing I think they win their first conference game. I think that may have set the tone for the
Bull. I was in school when Erickson and Price were there. I knew several players. You have no idea, you really don't. It was not that players were in it for themselves. Erickson ran it like a professional program. Price came in like a clown riding horses, etc. He did that at Weber State and it worked at that small setting. It did not work at a Pac 10 school. Price matured and cut out the "cute" things he did at Weber and that is when he took off as the coach of WSU.

In other words, they began to take him serious when he was a coach, not a sideshow.
1990...You mean in 1989 when he was 6-1 and he wore duck hunting gear, and he shot a horse? How did it work for him in 1989? But why pretend there weren't three factions. That team was extremely divided in 1990. You had two camps plus Price's camp. The first camp was those who wanted Brad Gossen at QB. Mike Smith, an Olineman even openly via the paper challenged Price on his decision to play Bledsoe over Gossen.

Then there was the Aaron Garcia camp, those who thought he should start. Then there was Mike Price, who thought Bledsoe gave them the best chance to win.

While you can say Erickson was more professional, and Price was a clapping clown, the lack of respect and the division was an issue because came who Price chose at QB.
 
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What about THAT, right there? Continuing to hammer a three year old game as though it doomed his program. So many negative things.

If you saw a six win team in 2012, you didn't anticipate the teams best player going full mutiny. Dealing with those kinds of lies- that sets a tone. Or you thought they had Pullman High's schedule.
Maybe I need to email you before I post anything so you don't get lost in the context. first and read this again. Based on 2011 I thought with Leach would bring that winning element to Pullman. I thought he was good for a two win gain in 2012. I thought IF they stayed healthy they had the stuff with the schedule to win 6 games. I thought with Leach six wins would be enough because of his marketability to get to a bowl game. In HINGDSIGHT, not winning the CU game proved to be costly. I think if they win they have something to build upon. When they lost, it was the same "feeling" they had in the previous 8 years. They didn't know how to win.

When you say I bring up the CU game, I did so in this thread to point out that probably has been my only criticism. I very rarely point to that collapse. I don't even point to the CSU game. And as I have said as many times, is while I thought six wins was possible in 2012 with Leach at the helm, I have also said without fail that transitions are very hard on college players. Especially college players that don't have internal leaders. So while I think they had 6 wins in them, I have said 100 times I give Leach a pass for 2012 because it was a transition year.

So if someone doesn't remark in this thread that 99% of the stuff I write about Leach is negative, I don't use an example as to the one item I think that could be remotely construed as negative.
 
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What about THAT, right there? Continuing to hammer a three year old game as though it doomed his program. So many negative things.

If you saw a six win team in 2012, you didn't anticipate the teams best player going full mutiny. Dealing with those kinds of lies- that sets a tone. Or you thought they had Pullman High's schedule.
Good grief Wulffui...I didn't say DOOMED, I said set the tone. Again, what have I said about play-calling, recruiting or anything else that has been negative?

Let me tell you what I love about Leach. I love that he is connected to the community. That he is getting young guys in there to sell it. I love the fact he isn't dry or lacks a personality I can identify with.

And leach cracks me up with regards to the people on this board. All the external issues people had with Wulff, Leach went and mirrored much of what Wulff did. I am not talking about the record, but how he purged the roster. Wulff didn't "win the hearts and minds" BS. Of course I take exception with that complaint. That is before 9-40. That was in the middle of it. It was not a valid beef. Leach would be the first two tell you he wasn't brought here to win the hearts and minds, he was brought here to instill his system. Both on and off the field.

Compliant 2- coaches who weren't qualified because of coaching level. One of the first things he said was level didn't matter. He then hires two coaches, three years apart that never coached their assigned position before.

Complaint 3- recruiting rankings. He has said many times they rely on their own recruiting rankings.

So all the peripheral complaints were just that, complaints.
 
Well his offensive line averaged about 270 lbs and wasn't even 1 deep when he walked in the door.

The QBs he had. 1 just flaked on an NFL team mysteriously and was prone to have a manic playstyle. The other QB on an NFL roster ....

"Ryan says he split quarterback reps pretty evenly between the top three candidates: EJ Manuel, Matt Cassel, and Tyrod Taylor. Jeff Tuel appears to be on the outside of the competition looking in, early on."

Tuel could of I think have developed into a strong QB, but having his knee sprained in 2012, Collar bone broken in 2011 because someone didn't want to recruit an offensive line...and now has a 45.1 QB rating in the NFL. He left under developed, and unfortunately probably won't be able to stick around much longer.

Leach was handed a 9-40 team that averaged in the bottom quarter in recruiting over those 4 years. You can cherry pick a good player here and there, but you need a lot more than a couple healthy good players to compete and we weren't even close to that, and with that O-line any QB we had was going to get rocked.

The reason TCU got it done quickly...

2015 - #34
2014 - #50
2013 - #30
2012 - #37

You can evolve a lot faster when you are just shy of the top quarter in recruiting...as opposed to the bottom quarter where we were with no o-line, under developed beat up QBs.
Tron...I am not sure what to make of your response. We are going position by position, because you listed a ton of players that price inherited in 1989. So when we talk about the qb situation, short term and long term I guess what you are saying is that you either believe Gossen/Garcia/Pattinson better or on par with Tuel and Halliday. Garcia did have a great Arena league career. But at worst case a push? No marketable differences than you see? No huge worst team in the world discrepancy at the QB position from 1989 and 2012? Did I state that correctly?

If that is the case, let's move to the offensive line.
 
Even if I had, you wouldn't remember it, so that proves what exactly?
It proves that you have zero credibility when you criticize someone for thinking we would win 6 games going into 2012 when you never predicted 3-9
 
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