For comparison, OL recruiting

[Fab5Coug]

Posted the other day about the struggles with recruiting CBs. Thought I would compare it to Leach's OL recruiting. This is an area I feel Leach has had a great deal of success, one where WSU has struggled historically.

2012: Niu Sale, Denzell Dotson, Eduardo Middleton, Pierson Villarubia, Sam Flor, BJ Salmonson. 3 washouts in Sale, Dotson & Villarubia. Middleton was a multi year starter, Salmonson started for a year and Flor was a contributing backup and started a couple games. Overall, reasonably successful based mostly on Middleton's multiple years starting. I'm sure Ed will be very eager to chime in to remind us those 3 were technically Wulff recruits, but I don't care. Wulff would have screwed them up and Leach didn't, so I'm giving Leach credit.

2013: Riley Sorenson, Cody O'Connell, Carlos Freeman, Cole Madison, Matt Meyer, Jacob Seydel, Devonte McClain. Consensus All American in O'Connell, NFL draft pick in Madison and multi year starter in Sorenson. I think Seydel played a bit. Meyer left shortly after arriving due to some kind of medical thing. Don't remember McClain contributing. Overall, smashing success. Probably one of the best OL classes WSU has ever had.

2014: Sean Krepsz, Kyle Celli, Andre Dillard, Brandon Evers. A pretty thin class by Leach's standards. Nonetheless, Dillard might be the best OL we've had in decades. And Celli was a 2 year starter as a long snapper. Evers & Krepsz transferred out, I believe. Overall, mixed results, although any class a Dillard can't be considered a failure.

2015: Davis Perrott, Noah Osur-Myers, Cedric Bigge-Duran, Amosa Sakira, Joseph Price. Pretty disastrous class. Not one contributor.

2016: Frederick Mauigoa, Josh Watson, Keenen King, Christian Haangana, Liam Ryan, Nillson Gaisoa. Mauigoa, Watson & Liam Ryan all multi year starters. Ryan has struggled since moving to LT, but was a very good OG. Nothing from the other 3, but getting 3 multi year starters is a very successful class.

2017: Abe Lucas, Robert Valencia, Jonathan Nathaniel, Alec Kuzmack, Dontae Powell. Lucas is a stud and Valencia ended up in a starting spot after getting a 6th year. Powell never qualified, Nathanial left and I'm not sure about Kuzmack. Overall, I'd say success just based on Lucas who is an NFL talent.

2018: Cade Beresford, Blake McDonald, Hunter Mayginnes, Keenen Forbes, Syr Riley, Jarrett Kingston. Still early for this class. Beresford is in the 2 deeps though, as is Kingston & Mayginnes, I believe. Not sure on the other 3. Overall, looks promising, Beresford could be a good one.

2019: Too early on these guys, but another 4 guys (including the long snapper) who enrolled and I think are still there.

 

[CougEd]

Posted the other day about the struggles with recruiting CBs. Thought I would compare it to Leach's OL recruiting. This is an area I feel Leach has had a great deal of success, one where WSU has struggled historically.

2012: Niu Sale, Denzell Dotson, Eduardo Middleton, Pierson Villarubia, Sam Flor, BJ Salmonson. 3 washouts in Sale, Dotson & Villarubia. Middleton was a multi year starter, Salmonson started for a year and Flor was a contributing backup and started a couple games. Overall, reasonably successful based mostly on Middleton's multiple years starting. I'm sure Ed will be very eager to chime in to remind us those 3 were technically Wulff recruits, but I don't care. Wulff would have screwed them up and Leach didn't, so I'm giving Leach credit.

2013: Riley Sorenson, Cody O'Connell, Carlos Freeman, Cole Madison, Matt Meyer, Jacob Seydel, Devonte McClain. Consensus All American in O'Connell, NFL draft pick in Madison and multi year starter in Sorenson. I think Seydel played a bit. Meyer left shortly after arriving due to some kind of medical thing. Don't remember McClain contributing. Overall, smashing success. Probably one of the best OL classes WSU has ever had.

2014: Sean Krepsz, Kyle Celli, Andre Dillard, Brandon Evers. A pretty thin class by Leach's standards. Nonetheless, Dillard might be the best OL we've had in decades. And Celli was a 2 year starter as a long snapper. Evers & Krepsz transferred out, I believe. Overall, mixed results, although any class a Dillard can't be considered a failure.

2015: Davis Perrott, Noah Osur-Myers, Cedric Bigge-Duran, Amosa Sakira, Joseph Price. Pretty disastrous class. Not one contributor.

2016: Frederick Mauigoa, Josh Watson, Keenen King, Christian Haangana, Liam Ryan, Nillson Gaisoa. Mauigoa, Watson & Liam Ryan all multi year starters. Ryan has struggled since moving to LT, but was a very good OG. Nothing from the other 3, but getting 3 multi year starters is a very successful class.

2017: Abe Lucas, Robert Valencia, Jonathan Nathaniel, Alec Kuzmack, Dontae Powell. Lucas is a stud and Valencia ended up in a starting spot after getting a 6th year. Powell never qualified, Nathanial left and I'm not sure about Kuzmack. Overall, I'd say success just based on Lucas who is an NFL talent.

2018: Cade Beresford, Blake McDonald, Hunter Mayginnes, Keenen Forbes, Syr Riley, Jarrett Kingston. Still early for this class. Beresford is in the 2 deeps though, as is Kingston & Mayginnes, I believe. Not sure on the other 3. Overall, looks promising, Beresford could be a good one.

2019: Too early on these guys, but another 4 guys (including the long snapper) who enrolled and I think are still there.

Nah...Leach's oline recruiting speaks for itself.

 

[PeteTheChop]

I'm sure Ed will be very eager to chime in to remind us those 3 were technically Wulff recruits, but I don't care. Wulff would have screwed them up and Leach didn't, so I'm giving Leach credit.

All for crediting to WSU's future of Hall of Fame coach ...

But wasn't developing offensive linemen considered a strength of CPW and one reason he didn't tend sign many "hosses" from year to year?

 

[PeteTheChop]

Nah...Leach's oline recruiting speaks for itself.

CougEd,

Looking back on Fab5's detailed data, what letter grade would you give CML for O-Line recruiting since his arrival in Pullman?

 

[displacedak]

One thing I think may be important not to forget with these comparisons is the gimmick factor.
We have an advantage recruiting the offensive side of the ball because we operate a system that does not necessarily have the same requirements other coaches may be looking for at other schools.
We can take tall, long, o-linemen that maybe would get dinged for their run-blocking ability elsewhere, and turn them into pass-pro all-pros.
I don’t feel like we have this same advantage when it comes to the defense (specifically at CB) and without this advantage, I feel like we tend to revert back to some of our historical recruiting levels on the defensive side of the ball, and at times have to end up taking recruits who may be a little riskier.

(Debate the merits and flaws of Grinch all you want, but I think what he was able to identify and cultivate an identity on the defensive side of the ball (takeaways) was something that really benefited this program.)

Hope the offensive/defensive contrast doesn’t derail the thread, I really like these little recruiting retrospective threads you’ve put together for us fab.

Cheers!

 

[BiggsCoug]

Posted the other day about the struggles with recruiting CBs. Thought I would compare it to Leach's OL recruiting. This is an area I feel Leach has had a great deal of success, one where WSU has struggled historically.

2012: Niu Sale, Denzell Dotson, Eduardo Middleton, Pierson Villarubia, Sam Flor, BJ Salmonson. 3 washouts in Sale, Dotson & Villarubia. Middleton was a multi year starter, Salmonson started for a year and Flor was a contributing backup and started a couple games. Overall, reasonably successful based mostly on Middleton's multiple years starting. I'm sure Ed will be very eager to chime in to remind us those 3 were technically Wulff recruits, but I don't care. Wulff would have screwed them up and Leach didn't, so I'm giving Leach credit.

2013: Riley Sorenson, Cody O'Connell, Carlos Freeman, Cole Madison, Matt Meyer, Jacob Seydel, Devonte McClain. Consensus All American in O'Connell, NFL draft pick in Madison and multi year starter in Sorenson. I think Seydel played a bit. Meyer left shortly after arriving due to some kind of medical thing. Don't remember McClain contributing. Overall, smashing success. Probably one of the best OL classes WSU has ever had.

2014: Sean Krepsz, Kyle Celli, Andre Dillard, Brandon Evers. A pretty thin class by Leach's standards. Nonetheless, Dillard might be the best OL we've had in decades. And Celli was a 2 year starter as a long snapper. Evers & Krepsz transferred out, I believe. Overall, mixed results, although any class a Dillard can't be considered a failure.

2015: Davis Perrott, Noah Osur-Myers, Cedric Bigge-Duran, Amosa Sakira, Joseph Price. Pretty disastrous class. Not one contributor.

2016: Frederick Mauigoa, Josh Watson, Keenen King, Christian Haangana, Liam Ryan, Nillson Gaisoa. Mauigoa, Watson & Liam Ryan all multi year starters. Ryan has struggled since moving to LT, but was a very good OG. Nothing from the other 3, but getting 3 multi year starters is a very successful class.

2017: Abe Lucas, Robert Valencia, Jonathan Nathaniel, Alec Kuzmack, Dontae Powell. Lucas is a stud and Valencia ended up in a starting spot after getting a 6th year. Powell never qualified, Nathanial left and I'm not sure about Kuzmack. Overall, I'd say success just based on Lucas who is an NFL talent.

2018: Cade Beresford, Blake McDonald, Hunter Mayginnes, Keenen Forbes, Syr Riley, Jarrett Kingston. Still early for this class. Beresford is in the 2 deeps though, as is Kingston & Mayginnes, I believe. Not sure on the other 3. Overall, looks promising, Beresford could be a good one.

2019: Too early on these guys, but another 4 guys (including the long snapper) who enrolled and I think are still there.

No WSU coach has ever invested the $ in the OL to make the position go. Leach is the first.

You have to start with numbers to end with numbers. If you sign 3 OL per year, dont be surprised if they all wash out.

I think they need to do the same with DBs. 3 corners and 3 safeties. Maybe a safety grows into a linebacker and you get some distance there. You might get a CB to move into a safety but the requirements are different. Some kids can and some kids cant.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

No WSU coach has ever invested the $ in the OL to make the position go. Leach is the first.

You have to start with numbers to end with numbers. If you sign 3 OL per year, dont be surprised if they all wash out.

I think they need to do the same with DBs. 3 corners and 3 safeties. Maybe a safety grows into a linebacker and you get some distance there. You might get a CB to move into a safety but the requirements are different. Some kids can and some kids cant.

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

 

[kougkurt]

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

Ahhhh the Chelan HS AD.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

When recruiting a 3 stars HS group at any position, a 50% contributor rate is probably pretty close to the median in terms of results, with a 25-35% "able to start during their career" record being pretty acceptable. CML wants 5 OL recruits per year and would expect to redshirt most...so assume that means 24-25 who had been recruited over a rolling 5 year period. That is 11-13 who contribute (to be roughly translated as being in the 2 deeps) and 6-9 core starters. Once he got established, CML managed to be on the better side of that spread at OL, even with the occasional bust recruiting year at the position.

 

[Coug1990]

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

Weren't a few of the fat five walkons?

 

[BiggsCoug]

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

Fat 5 had 2 walk ons. Thanks for playing.

 

[425cougfan]

When recruiting a 3 stars HS group at any position, a 50% contributor rate is probably pretty close to the median in terms of results, with a 25-35% "able to start during their career" record being pretty acceptable. CML wants 5 OL recruits per year and would expect to redshirt most...so assume that means 24-25 who had been recruited over a rolling 5 year period. That is 11-13 who contribute (to be roughly translated as being in the 2 deeps) and 6-9 core starters. Once he got established, CML managed to be on the better side of that spread at OL, even with the occasional bust recruiting year at the position.

Can't argue with any of this and it's well-expressed, but the tricky thing with defining success simply by whether they ever started or were in the two deeps is that, barring a staff just bringing in a bunch of JC transfers to fill the two-deeps, some of these HS recruits must be in the two-deeps simply out of necessity. At any given time, the two-deeps on the OL have 10 players in them. Assuming typical attrition and development, most of those guys would be upperclassmen when in the two-deeps. So if they're only in the two-deeps as RS-SR and RS-JR, you by definition would be swapping out 10 guys every two years, with all 10 of those guys deemed successful as starters.

Of course, in practice, it's not always like that (some guys get PT earlier, some players get injured and their careers end, some are in the two deeps but leave like Osur-Myers or whatever his name is at this point, etc.), and Leach's lines have performed pretty well, rendering the simple test of whether starters were generated of some value. I think that's largely a function of the OL recruiting having been solid, though, and not the most robust test of whether that recruiting has been solid.

 

[Fab5Coug]

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

He means Leach invests more scholarships in the OL than previous coaches, not that there haven't been any good linemen.

 

[longtimecoug]

I'm thinking the fat five, and a few NFLers after that, would probably disagree with that statement.

no, Leach is the first to concentrate on the o line, the fat five were an abberation, a fluke that saved prices rear end

 

[CougEd]

no, Leach is the first to concentrate on the o line, the fat five were an abberation, a fluke that saved prices rear end

Very simple answer for a very different time. Back in the old days "they did it the right way" . They honored a 4/5 year commitment. So if Price had offered the same players Leach offered from 14 to 17 (reason I picked those years it gave his recruiting to take hold and not to be judged on a short period in 2012, and 2013 which still relatively new to west coast recruiting, and I didn't use 2018 and 2019 because of they are too young to play) Mike Price would have taken 18 players, 13 of which washed out, never played. Now imagine if Krepsz, Evers, Sakara, Perrott, Myer, Price, Duren, Haangana, Gaison, King, Nathaniel, Kuzmak and Powell didn't leave the program, WSU elected to live by the "we do it the right way" and we honor the 4 year commitment could you imagine how hamstrung we would be in recruiting?

Playing by the old rules you HAD to be more selective, you couldn't have a shotgun approach (not saying negative). WSU had to be relatively sure when they offered an olineman, and even at that there clearly was no guarantees. Add on to the fact WSU is not recruiting TE's it allows another spot or two to be used on olineman.

 

[CougEd]

Fat 5 had 2 walk ons. Thanks for playing.

And one looked smaller than our starting QB