How will recruiting go?

[BiggsCoug]

I certainly don't miss Price's "recessions" but its not really a fair comparison.

Price didn't have the name that Leach came in with...and certainly didn't have the facilities and the Pac 12 revenue sharing.

Heck, he probably had to paint his own office.

I think what Price was able to accomplish was amazing.

With the facilities and lack of money and tv appearances... totally amazing.

I think he got lucky with a lot of kids for the first Rose Bowl. Still gets credit for getting them there though.

They swung and missed on some guys and had some other guys wash out. They had some other kids blow up out of nowhere and do really well.

The second Rose Bowl they had really done a good job developing the roster top to bottom.

If Leach had gotten WSU over the hump in the AC, maybe WSU has some bigger games in the post season....

 

[Coug1990]

Price was ahead of his time, for sure. The formula was to snag a bunch of talent, play them early and often, lose a bunch while they gain experience, get good when the team is veteran and pray no one gets hurt because there is almost zero depth.

Remember how we held our collective breath when Ira Davis punched out Jason David in 2002? Fortunately Paymah and Derting picked up the slack but that almost cost us the conference. Even so, missing David probably cost us the Apple Cup. It worked.

I'm not sure Price's boom and bust cycles are a formula for success anymore. Heck, folks were eager to get rid of Leach for a 6-7 season following 4 straight winning seasons. Price went 3-8, 3-9, and 4-7 following 97 and no one wanted him gone.

I think Price had a great staff that was very loyal to him. They stayed. A lot of what you are giving Price credit was really Walker, Doba and Levenseller. They were outstanding at evaluation. What Price allowed is Doba (and Mike Zimmer before him) to take players they wanted for the defense. Zimmer and Doba were the architects of putting Brown, Acholonu (sp?) Childs, Patterson, etc., where they played.

Still, during that era it was mostly one good year followed by two horrible seasons.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Price was ahead of his time, for sure. The formula was to snag a bunch of talent, play them early and often, lose a bunch while they gain experience, get good when the team is veteran and pray no one gets hurt because there is almost zero depth.

Remember how we held our collective breath when Ira Davis punched out Jason David in 2002? Fortunately Paymah and Derting picked up the slack but that almost cost us the conference. Even so, missing David probably cost us the Apple Cup. It worked.

I'm not sure Price's boom and bust cycles are a formula for success anymore. Heck, folks were eager to get rid of Leach for a 6-7 season following 4 straight winning seasons. Price went 3-8, 3-9, and 4-7 following 97 and no one wanted him gone.

The thing I don't see discussed in this string (forgive me if I missed it) was Price's dependence on transfers and kids that were academically borderline. The academic part of that equation went away a long time ago. Tranfers are and always have been a crap shoot, but I'd say Price's track record in picking JC kids was as good as anyone's, and better than most.

 

[dgibbons]

Why is what I write bizarre ? When has he taken a qb and moved to wr? A qb (merriwether) to rb, Nian Taylor, Chris Jackson, Trufant, Hunter, Mkristo Bruce and a bunch of other players who played different positions in high school.

You are correct he has been able to see how cracraft fits into his offense . Brett Bartilone as well.

Only time I have seen him move a player was Sale from online to Dline and T Caldwell from RB to ss. ( a week before the season opener .

So maybe he thinks the guys he is able to get on defense are better than the hunters, burns , trufants of the world . Maybe he has that much cache . Not the case I was making about Price .

Because it’s not connected to reality.

Dotson and Rogers are your QBs that changed positions.

 

[etowncoug]

The thing I don't see discussed in this string (forgive me if I missed it) was Price's dependence on transfers and kids that were academically borderline. The academic part of that equation went away a long time ago. Tranfers are and always have been a crap shoot, but I'd say Price's track record in picking JC kids was as good as anyone's, and better than most.

This is another overlooked aspect. Education policy in the country dramatically changed the eligibility equation for colleges. Public schools have been instituting earlier interventions for struggling kids, special education funding for kids with learning disabilities are much more available. Students are better prepared for the SAT.

All of this has given a much clearer picture of who will or will not qualify. In retrospect, I wonder how much of Doba's disastrous run of Randy Estes traveling All Stars was a result of the sands shifting under our feet. Other schools better knew the odds of qualification and started picking off the borderline kids likely to qualify and cut bait on knuckleheads like Estes.

I know we have more resources than ever before, but we still are dead last in the conference. There are fewer under the radar kids than ever before. Pullman has an airport now which helps get kids in from all over the country. I still think this is the hardest place to win the conference (outside of maybe Corvallis) but the challenges are different. Rolo is going to have to find new inefficiencies to exploit.

 

[Coug1990]

This is another overlooked aspect. Education policy in the country dramatically changed the eligibility equation for colleges. Public schools have been instituting earlier interventions for struggling kids, special education funding for kids with learning disabilities are much more available. Students are better prepared for the SAT.

All of this has given a much clearer picture of who will or will not qualify. In retrospect, I wonder how much of Doba's disastrous run of Randy Estes traveling All Stars was a result of the sands shifting under our feet. Other schools better knew the odds of qualification and started picking off the borderline kids likely to qualify and cut bait on knuckleheads like Estes.

I know we have more resources than ever before, but we still are dead last in the conference. There are fewer under the radar kids than ever before. Pullman has an airport now which helps get kids in from all over the country. I still think this is the hardest place to win the conference (outside of maybe Corvallis) but the challenges are different. Rolo is going to have to find new inefficiencies to exploit.

Another change in recruiting happened right about the time that Doba took over and he was slow to adapt. Right up until then, programs started offering players during or right before their senior year. They wanted to see them up close in camp before their senior year, or see them play during the senior year to get the most information on a player.

Today, teams recruit players earlier and earlier. It is no big deal now. But, back then was a sea change and Doba was slow to react.

 

[95coug]

This is another overlooked aspect. Education policy in the country dramatically changed the eligibility equation for colleges. Public schools have been instituting earlier interventions for struggling kids, special education funding for kids with learning disabilities are much more available. Students are better prepared for the SAT.

All of this has given a much clearer picture of who will or will not qualify. In retrospect, I wonder how much of Doba's disastrous run of Randy Estes traveling All Stars was a result of the sands shifting under our feet. Other schools better knew the odds of qualification and started picking off the borderline kids likely to qualify and cut bait on knuckleheads like Estes.

I know we have more resources than ever before, but we still are dead last in the conference. There are fewer under the radar kids than ever before. Pullman has an airport now which helps get kids in from all over the country. I still think this is the hardest place to win the conference (outside of maybe Corvallis) but the challenges are different. Rolo is going to have to find new inefficiencies to exploit.

Even more so now. Budget impacts of COVID-19 are going to hurt public schools a lot more than most of the big privates. Schools like WSU are going to be hit hard, and aren't going to climb out of the hole for years.

 

[BiggsCoug]

The thing I don't see discussed in this string (forgive me if I missed it) was Price's dependence on transfers and kids that were academically borderline. The academic part of that equation went away a long time ago. Tranfers are and always have been a crap shoot, but I'd say Price's track record in picking JC kids was as good as anyone's, and better than most.

Prop 48 was a big deal for WSU.

I would argue that Prop 48 was actually more successful than JUCO kids. JC kids are prob 50/50 at best.

JC's are just like high schools. Some have football teams, some have football programs. There is a huge difference. If you get a kid from a "team" that came from a high school that was also just a "team".... you're not likely to get much out of him. Maybe a perimeter position...

Asking yourself what is the difference between a football team and a football program???

Football "teams" have little organization, not much for wins, poor attitudes, little to no strength training, no money... I would argue that for decades WSU had a football "team."

Football "programs" are the opposite of football "teams." Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, Oklahoma, etc... Everything you need to run a top flight organization is there. Money, attitude, expectations, organization, everything.

 

[CougEd]

I think Price had a great staff that was very loyal to him. They stayed. A lot of what you are giving Price credit was really Walker, Doba and Levenseller. They were outstanding at evaluation. What Price allowed is Doba (and Mike Zimmer before him) to take players they wanted for the defense. Zimmer and Doba were the architects of putting Brown, Acholonu (sp?) Childs, Patterson, etc., where they played.

Still, during that era it was mostly one good year followed by two horrible seasons.

A smidge push back. I agree the staff was great at evaluating. I have been thinking about Price's inconsistency. If we schedule Portland State instead of Michigan in 93 we are a bowl team. If we schedule Idaho State instead of a game at CU in 96, we are a bowl team. In that entire stetch of time, if we were able to schedule then like we did in the Leach years, 92, 93, 94, 96 and 97. That is a 5 out of six years.

It is surprising what happened in 98 because the class that should have fueled that class was the 94 class, which some have regarded as one of the top three classes on paper WSU has ever had.

The other thing that doomed Price wasn't necessarily abolishing Prop 48 (but was an advantage) but Dixon saying he couldn't over-sign kids in 95 that was a hedge against fallout.

 

[CougEd]

Because it’s not connected to reality.

Dotson and Rogers are your QBs that changed positions.

My bad, I didn't realize rogers and Dotson weren't defensive players in high school, and that most colleges weren't recruiting them for that side of the ball. Any other examples of players who switched positions that you can think of? Seemed like there were way more than two under Price.

 

[dgibbons]

My bad, I didn't realize rogers and Dotson weren't defensive players in high school, and that most colleges weren't recruiting them for that side of the ball. Any other examples of players who switched positions that you can think of? Seemed like there were way more than two under Price.

Is this your way of saying you're full of nonsense? Go ahead and look at every profile of every guy that played for Leach and tell us what you find.

 

[FnuLnu]

A smidge push back. I agree the staff was great at evaluating. I have been thinking about Price's inconsistency. If we schedule Portland State instead of Michigan in 93 we are a bowl team. If we schedule Idaho State instead of a game at CU in 96, we are a bowl team. In that entire stetch of time, if we were able to schedule then like we did in the Leach years, 92, 93, 94, 96 and 97. That is a 5 out of six years.

It is surprising what happened in 98 because the class that should have fueled that class was the 94 class, which some have regarded as one of the top three classes on paper WSU has ever had.

The other thing that doomed Price wasn't necessarily abolishing Prop 48 (but was an advantage) but Dixon saying he couldn't over-sign kids in 95 that was a hedge against fallout.

WSU played Montana State in 1993, so swapping out Michigan for Portland State wouldn't have made them bowl eligible (assuming they beat Portland State).

Only could count one DIAA/FCS win per year.

(And 6-5 might not have been good enough for a bowl in 1993).

 

[etowncoug]

A smidge push back. I agree the staff was great at evaluating. I have been thinking about Price's inconsistency. If we schedule Portland State instead of Michigan in 93 we are a bowl team. If we schedule Idaho State instead of a game at CU in 96, we are a bowl team. In that entire stetch of time, if we were able to schedule then like we did in the Leach years, 92, 93, 94, 96 and 97. That is a 5 out of six years.

It is surprising what happened in 98 because the class that should have fueled that class was the 94 class, which some have regarded as one of the top three classes on paper WSU has ever had.

The other thing that doomed Price wasn't necessarily abolishing Prop 48 (but was an advantage) but Dixon saying he couldn't over-sign kids in 95 that was a hedge against fallout.

A 12 game schedule would have been very bad news for Price. Even a game against Idaho St can result in serious injuries to important pieces and his teams never had the depth to overcome them.

 

[etowncoug]

WSU played Montana State in 1993, so swapping out Michigan for Portland State wouldn't have made them bowl eligible (assuming they beat Portland State).

Only could count one DIAA/FCS win per year.

(And 6-5 might not have been good enough for a bowl in 1993).

Checkmate.

 

[BiggsCoug]

A smidge push back. I agree the staff was great at evaluating. I have been thinking about Price's inconsistency. If we schedule Portland State instead of Michigan in 93 we are a bowl team. If we schedule Idaho State instead of a game at CU in 96, we are a bowl team. In that entire stetch of time, if we were able to schedule then like we did in the Leach years, 92, 93, 94, 96 and 97. That is a 5 out of six years.

It is surprising what happened in 98 because the class that should have fueled that class was the 94 class, which some have regarded as one of the top three classes on paper WSU has ever had.

The other thing that doomed Price wasn't necessarily abolishing Prop 48 (but was an advantage) but Dixon saying he couldn't over-sign kids in 95 that was a hedge against fallout.

WSU has a long history of selling its non con games to teams it has no business playing. Which led to seasons that were often one or two wins away from either 500 or bowl eligibility.

It is prob the single biggest reason WSU has very little history of stringing two and three winning seasons in a row.

 

[etowncoug]

Is this your way of saying you're full of nonsense? Go ahead and look at every profile of every guy that played for Leach and tell us what you find.

RB's used to make a lot more money in the NFL than DB's. As CB's and S's have gotten bigger paydays it shouldn't be a surprise talented athletes are eager to play those positions in high school and college.

 

[FnuLnu]

WSU has a long history of selling its non con games to teams it has no business playing. Which led to seasons that were often one or two wins away from either 500 or bowl eligibility.

It is prob the single biggest reason WSU has very little history of stringing two and three winning seasons in a row.

Mike Pattinson getting hurt in a blow out win vs Cal on Homecoming is why the 1993 WSU team didn't go bowling - not scheduling Michigan.

Replacements (Shawn Deeds, Chad DeGrenier, Derek Chapman) were worse than Menkenbaum - 43% completion percentage, 3TD, 7INTs)

 

[CougEd]

Mike Pattinson getting hurt in a blow out win vs Cal on Homecoming is why the 1993 WSU team didn't go bowling - not scheduling Michigan.

Replacements (Shawn Deeds, Chad DeGrenier, Derek Chapman) were worse than Menkenbaum - 43% completion percentage, 3TD, 7INTs)

Throw in Temple if you like or someone the quality of ISU, PSU, Northern Colo but D1 instead of Michigan and that would be scheduling a bowl game, or a chance. A winning record like Leach had in 15, 16, 17 and 18. 12, 13, 14, and 19 were shy of the .500 mark.

We are in the day and age where you can win .333 of your conference games and go bowling.

 

[dgibbons]

RB's used to make a lot more money in the NFL than DB's. As CB's and S's have gotten bigger paydays it shouldn't be a surprise talented athletes are eager to play those positions in high school and college.

And there is more emphasis on passing offenses now at the HS level. Not every HS team puts their best two athletes at QB and RB and runs veer, option, Wing T, or whatever. But don't tell Ed that the world has changed during the past 30 years.

 

[CougEd]

Is this your way of saying you're full of nonsense? Go ahead and look at every profile of every guy that played for Leach and tell us what you find.

Feel free to read what ever you want to read into my post. Whatever blows your hair back.

 

[CougEd]

And there is more emphasis on passing offenses now at the HS level. Not every HS team puts their best two athletes at QB and RB and runs veer, option, Wing T, or whatever. But don't tell Ed that the world has changed during the past 30 years.

Maybe you are right, Price just recruited players with more upside.

 

[etowncoug]

Maybe you are right, Price just recruited players with more upside.

Price recruited grade risks. Leach did pretty well with James Williams but there are a lot fewer of these high upside grade risks than there were 30 years ago.

 

[dgibbons]

Feel free to read what ever you want to read into my post. Whatever blows your hair back.

So, you're declining to go through the profiles to see where Leach's guys played in HS, but clinging to whatever your notion is about position changes coming out of HS.

 

[dgibbons]

Maybe you are right, Price just recruited players with more upside.

Funny that he had 8 losing seasons and 6 winning ones, usually with two losing seasons leading up to one winning season before starting the cycle over.

 

[FnuLnu]

Funny that he had 8 losing seasons and 6 winning ones, usually with two losing seasons leading up to one winning season before starting the cycle over.

Price had 4 losing seasons at Weber State, 8 losing seasons at WSU and 8 losing seasons at UTEP (his final 8 seasons as head coach which includes his 0-7 interim season.)

That's 20 losing seasons - ouch.

 

[Coug1990]

Funny that he had 8 losing seasons and 6 winning ones, usually with two losing seasons leading up to one winning season before starting the cycle over.

If you take off the bookends, (first season was a winning season and the last two were winning seasons), he was 3-8 in the middle. Ouch.

 

[spongeworthy12]

Funny that he had 8 losing seasons and 6 winning ones, usually with two losing seasons leading up to one winning season before starting the cycle over.

Well, Leach had 4 winning seasons and 4 losing seasons and was 1-7 in the Apple Cup.

I'll let him know that you are his biggest fan.

 

[etowncoug]

Well, Leach had 4 winning seasons and 4 losing seasons and was 1-7 in the Apple Cup.

I'll let him know that you are his biggest fan.

Impressive to win the conference twice in 14 seasons despite finishing 49-63 against conference opponents.

 

[CougEd]

Price recruited grade risks. Leach did pretty well with James Williams but there are a lot fewer of these high upside grade risks than there were 30 years ago.

I would venture to say Leach had as much attrition whether it was grades or not as Price.

 

[etowncoug]

I would venture to say Leach had as much attrition whether it was grades or not as Price.

That's changing the subject.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I would venture to say Leach had as much attrition whether it was grades or not as Price.

Leach had stronger depth. Removing the tight end position helped a lot on offense.

The lack of talent on defense showed up this year. Although I feel they weren't helped with special teams giving up touchdowns and the offense turning the ball over so much.

The new defensive staff has their work cut out for them.

 

[dgibbons]

Well, Leach had 4 winning seasons and 4 losing seasons and was 1-7 in the Apple Cup.

I'll let him know that you are his biggest fan.

Well, maybe Leach’s recruits had bigger upside.

 

[CougEd]

Well, maybe Leach’s recruits had bigger upside.

Maybe...and then that means his staff didn't coach them up...and not sure that is the case....

 

[CougEd]

Leach had stronger depth. Removing the tight end position helped a lot on offense.

The lack of talent on defense showed up this year. Although I feel they weren't helped with special teams giving up touchdowns and the offense turning the ball over so much.

The new defensive staff has their work cut out for them.

Not sure the talent is anywhere near 15-18 on the defensive side of the ball. Time will tell.

 

[dgibbons]

Maybe...and then that means his staff didn't coach them up...and not sure that is the case....

Maybe Leach figured out that position change thing. How’s your review of player profiles going?

 

[BiggsCoug]

Not sure the talent is anywhere near 15-18 on the defensive side of the ball. Time will tell.

It isn't. It's prob a good time to change schemes as they don't have the personnel to run anything well.

IMO, it's time to treat DB like OL. Start shoving money into the position group to start with numbers so you end with numbers.

425 defense may be a good thing for WSU. I have no idea what the new DC is gonna run.

 

[dgibbons]

It isn't. It's prob a good time to change schemes as they don't have the personnel to run anything well.

IMO, it's time to treat DB like OL. Start shoving money into the position group to start with numbers so you end with numbers.

425 defense may be a good thing for WSU. I have no idea what the new DC is gonna run.

The defense will be a 4-2-5.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

I think that safety is one of the easiest positions to recruit on the west coast, just in terms of the total number of athletes available who could fill the job.

Cornerback is a whole different situation. If there was a position that justified taking extras to be sure you had enough (as with the O line), CB would seem to be the poster child. Followed by DT.

A 4-2-5 as the primary D makes sense to me for WSU if you are looking from a recruiting perspective. The LB's that fit a 425 don't grow on trees, but you only need 2 of them. DT is DT...always harder to get...but I think the DT you need in a 4 man front is probably a bit easier to find and/or develop than in a 3 man front. I'm not sure if recruiting the right DE for a 4 man front is harder or easier than the right LB for a 425. My gut says the DE types are a bit more prevalent, but I might be wrong about that.

To effectively run a 425 we probably need at least 3 CB's that we can put on the field with confidence; 4 safeties; at least 3 LB's; three DT's and three DE's. That is a total of a minimum of 16 in the 2 deep that can play at any time or situation. Just from what I can tell from last season and what I see on this year's roster, we are probably short 1 CB, 1 safety and 2 DE's. The DE piece is scary. We either need some kids to step up from where they were last year, or one of the new faces needs to be ready early. That can happen at CB; we've had true frosh who were a best choice for the #3 spot at CB before. It is unlikely at the other positions. We need the two JC DE transfers to pan out.

 

[CougEd]

Maybe Leach figured out that position change thing. How’s your review of player profiles going?

It is going great. discovered he moved Bartilone from the right side to the left, found out he moved Cracraft from outside in high school to inside. discovered he moved falk from behind center to teh shogun, and several right guards in high school to the left side and vice versa.

 

[mikalalas]

About the Bet thing. I'm sorry its taken this long. But for 1,2 days I was extremely busy helping to take care of my 1 year old baby girl.

Also I spent 1 day scouring the internet trying to find anything that would back Brandon Huffman up.

I didnt find hardly anything.

If McCarron did tell Brandon Huffman, that he is a Virginia Lean, then he told Huffman not to say something like "McCarron told me that he is a lean to Virginia", and is keeping it under the vest, secretive, so to speak, because there is NOTHING out there even hinting that McCarron said anything that backs up Huffman.

But that said here is what I did find.

1. Virginia Tech is tied with WSU as unofficial favorite, because ONE of McCarron's favorite coaches that used to coach McCarron, is according to the source I read, now coaching at Virginia Tech.

2. I found this on CBS Sports using 247 as source

He broke down his top six with 247Sports.

Boise State: "I really like the coach staff, specifically the linebacker group. They’ve reached out a ton and I just love what I’m seeing with their program."

Cal: "They we’re first to offer and have done a great job showing me an awesome campus and student-athlete lifestyle at one of the most prestigious schools in the world."

Northwestern: "I’ve grown to have a great relationship with them as they were the first school to ever reach out. I love the Chicago area and want to get back out there."

Virginia: "They have an incredible staff that has shown me that UVA’s culture is different from all schools in the country. Their defense fits my skill set well."

Virginia Tech: "Probably my favorite fan base I’ve seen so far. They just always bring the energy in everything and I love that."

Washington State: "I do firmly believe they’ll be contending for championships soon with the way they’re recruiting. They’re great a building relationships and I’m excited to see what’s in store there."

3. Brandon Huff isnt the only one crystall balling McCarron to Virginia, 6 other experts are saying he is going to Virginia, but again there is NOTHING backing them up.

So why are the experts projecting McCarron to Virginia?

Either McCarron SECRETIVELY is telling them Virginia is his favorite, which I doubt that he is doing that

Or

The experts read what McCarron said in his Breakdown, and probably thought: "Hmm McCarron said that Virginia's staff is INCREDIBLE, etc. Since Virginia is the biggest, best college in his top 6, combined with how incredible Virginia is to McCarron, Virginia has to be the Favorite"

And they are probably ignoring things like McCarron's favorite coach at Virginia Tech, and McCarron being WSU fan, sister at WSU, etc.

I know that if I was a expert, and wasnt aware of McCarron being a WSU fan, or his favorite coach at Virginia Tech, and only based on what McCarron said in his breakdown about Virginia, and since Virginia is a bigger College, I would probably say Virginia was, is the favorite if I was a expert too in that kind of situation.

So here is how I see it.

McCarron is probably going to go to:

1. WSU: He is a WSU fan. His sister goes to WSU

2. Virginia Tech: Right on Heels of WSU. His favorite coach is at Virginia Tech, so wouldnt surprise me if McCarron went there instead of WSU.

3. Virginia. I do agree with the Experts reasoning that if you dont know, ignore what WSU, Virginia Tech got going for them, and only go by McCarron saying Virginia's staff, culture INCREDIBLE, and Virginia being the biggest College in top 6, that Virginia would be the favorite, if not for WSU, Virginia Tech.

So about the bet.

I still think I am right, and that WSU is still the unofficial favorite.

But its a closer then I thought.

Virginia Tech especially makes me nervous about WSU's chances.

And altho Virginia is number 3, behind WSU, and Virginia Tech, it would not surprise me if McCarron went there because of how INCREDIBLE he says Virginia is.

That makes taking the bet RISKIER. There is about a 13% to 33% chance that I could end up being wrong, McCarron could go to Virginia, and I end up losing the bet.

People get hit by lightning with less then 1% chance.

Just too risky.

If it was a lot lesser chance, then I would take the bet.

So I am turning down the bet.

But I still think I am right.

And if I am wrong. I will admit to being wrong.

Also I am not going by my knowledge. I am going by what I have found out, read in various articles, sources.

I am not a EXPERT, and because of that, I have to go by articles, sources, etc. And without those sources, I wouldnt think that WSU is the favorite, followed by Virginia Tech.