KSU vs WSU

[Coug95man2]

And I am saying if he was experienceing any if the symptoms that would make him take on a linebacker, he wouldn't have gone into the game...or be cleared to go in the game.

You know sometimes the simplest explanation ls in life are the most accurate. In this example, he simply made a bad decision.

Then why didn't he start? Puking was his ONLY symptom? The IV couldn't have fixed anything other than dehydration. And as I stated before, a guy with the flu makes a decision that was bad… we ALL agree on this. And as you've put it, a QB 101 rule that he didn't abide by was "just step out of bounds". Why would a salted QB that knows better make such a rookie mistake? While battling the flu…. hmmmm. I think I'll use your quote. Sometimes the simplest explanation in life are the most accurate, don't you think? And ultimately, all I'm saying, that you are arguing against, is, "How Do You Know"? How do you know he wouldn't have gone in the game even if he felt like complete crap? You've said in the past that he was trying to be a competitor. I'm agreeing with you on this, that is a possibility. A strong one. Or how do you know if he felt a wave of dizziness during that play or not? The prior thread, you were saying that the flu couldn't cause poor decisions, as quoted here:
"Do tell your algorithm that proves that the flu causes injuries, however."
I completely disagreed with you on this aspect and the reason I bring this up again. The flu causes confusion, dizziness, swelling of the brain among so many other things. With these affects on the body, your brain is not clear. Decisions are not clear. Some decisions could be bad ones. NOW you are saying he didn't have enough symptoms to warrant concern… but couldn't start. It was said by your brother, the IV fixed all. I pointed out that did nothing for the affects of the flu, just help with dehydration caused by puking.

So now I ask again… WHAT scientific facts are you disputing? Or is your whole argument based on the doctor clearing him? Or also because he told them he was OK? My response to these statements are, How Do You Know? You brought up the flu again. I thought your basis for bringing up the flu again was the same as the previous thread. Now it seems you have changed your basis of point, so my response might change as well. Not trying to berate you. Don't know what articles to provide without knowing what you're base point is. You're kinda all over. If you're going to say something that isn't based on proof or fact, just let me know.

 

[spongebob11]

Then why didn't he start? Puking was his ONLY symptom? The IV couldn't have fixed anything other than dehydration. And as I stated before, a guy with the flu makes a decision that was bad… we ALL agree on this. And as you've put it, a QB 101 rule that he didn't abide by was "just step out of bounds". Why would a salted QB that knows better make such a rookie mistake? While battling the flu…. hmmmm. I think I'll use your quote. Sometimes the simplest explanation in life are the most accurate, don't you think? And ultimately, all I'm saying, that you are arguing against, is, "How Do You Know"? How do you know he wouldn't have gone in the game even if he felt like complete crap? You've said in the past that he was trying to be a competitor. I'm agreeing with you on this, that is a possibility. A strong one. Or how do you know if he felt a wave of dizziness during that play or not? The prior thread, you were saying that the flu couldn't cause poor decisions, as quoted here:
"Do tell your algorithm that proves that the flu causes injuries, however."
I completely disagreed with you on this aspect and the reason I bring this up again. The flu causes confusion, dizziness, swelling of the brain among so many other things. With these affects on the body, your brain is not clear. Decisions are not clear. Some decisions could be bad ones. NOW you are saying he didn't have enough symptoms to warrant concern… but couldn't start. It was said by your brother, the IV fixed all. I pointed out that did nothing for the affects of the flu, just help with dehydration caused by puking.

So now I ask again… WHAT scientific facts are you disputing? Or is your whole argument based on the doctor clearing him? Or also because he told them he was OK? My response to these statements are, How Do You Know? You brought up the flu again. I thought your basis for bringing up the flu again was the same as the previous thread. Now it seems you have changed your basis of point, so my response might change as well. Not trying to berate you. Don't know what articles to provide without knowing what you're base point is. You're kinda all over. If you're going to say something that isn't based on proof or fact, just let me know.

Then why didn't he start? Puking was his ONLY symptom? The IV couldn't have fixed anything other than dehydration. And as I stated before, a guy with the flu makes a decision that was bad… we ALL agree on this. And as you've put it, a QB 101 rule that he didn't abide by was "just step out of bounds". Why would a salted QB that knows better make such a rookie mistake? While battling the flu…. hmmmm. I think I'll use your quote. Sometimes the simplest explanation in life are the most accurate, don't you think? And ultimately, all I'm saying, that you are arguing against, is, "How Do You Know"? How do you know he wouldn't have gone in the game even if he felt like complete crap? You've said in the past that he was trying to be a competitor. I'm agreeing with you on this, that is a possibility. A strong one. Or how do you know if he felt a wave of dizziness during that play or not? The prior thread, you were saying that the flu couldn't cause poor decisions, as quoted here:
"Do tell your algorithm that proves that the flu causes injuries, however."
I completely disagreed with you on this aspect and the reason I bring this up again. The flu causes confusion, dizziness, swelling of the brain among so many other things. With these affects on the body, your brain is not clear. Decisions are not clear. Some decisions could be bad ones. NOW you are saying he didn't have enough symptoms to warrant concern… but couldn't start. It was said by your brother, the IV fixed all. I pointed out that did nothing for the affects of the flu, just help with dehydration caused by puking.

So now I ask again… WHAT scientific facts are you disputing? Or is your whole argument based on the doctor clearing him? Or also because he told them he was OK? My response to these statements are, How Do You Know? You brought up the flu again. I thought your basis for bringing up the flu again was the same as the previous thread. Now it seems you have changed your basis of point, so my response might change as well. Not trying to berate you. Don't know what articles to provide without knowing what you're base point is. You're kinda all over. If you're going to say something that isn't based on proof or fact, just let me know.

You keep listing all these symptoms but neglect to say how often they occur...and in what percentage of the population

If Tuel was dizzy, you would have noticed it on his run. You can't explain how he can call a play in the huddle one minute and roll out at full speed..then take on a lb. The flu must have kicked in the split second before he took on The linebacker.

Again, if he was feeling dizzvor mentally impaired, he would not have gone in the game.

 

[CougEd]

2012 - Tailulu, Feddie Davey, David Buchanon
2011 #of DBs - 1 - Waseem the gumbo dumbo
2010 Dbs - 4 - Simmons, Horton, Clark Buchanon

Now which one of these classes produced ZERO dbs on the roster... I'll give you a hint 2011.

Now After Horton, and Buchanon, left 2013...which class becomes important in 2014... ah yes..2011...the one with ZERO people in it.

You can argue ALL day with me but you will never be right about this stuff.

Tron, there were enough db's to transition to the next coach.

So he had the flu bad enough that he wasn't cleared to start, but he had no symptoms? How do you come up with that? That's not how the flu works. Not at all.

Wulffui, I just gave you an example of Cooper throwing up on the field, during the game, and it was a game against Charleston S. When he caught his TD it was in the 2nd quarter, they were up by 14 in the first. Since the game was a blowout, the game was against a way inferior team, he clearly had the flu and was sick, why would Meyers risk him to make these decisions when the game was over.

 

[Coug95man2]

You keep listing all these symptoms but neglect to say how often they occur...and in what percentage of the population

If Tuel was dizzy, you would have noticed it on his run. You can't explain how he can call a play in the huddle one minute and roll out at full speed..then take on a lb. The flu must have kicked in the split second before he took on The linebacker.

Again, if he was feeling dizzvor mentally impaired, he would not have gone in the game.

Good question. Don't know and I haven't seen any studies on specific symptoms, just population percentages that get the flu. BUT I'm not the one that is saying it didn't affect Tuel. It might have, it might not have. You are being definitive on this point. Your burden of proof, not mine.

But again, you are changing your rhetoric. Before it was that the flu doesn't affect choices. Now it's, if he had any symptoms, he wouldn't have gone in the game. Several points:
1. Why are you changing your point?
2. How do you know what was said between Tuel and the Doctor?
3. How do you know Tuel didn't lie because, as you said, he's a competitor. And as you and your brother have repeatedly pointed out, it happens all the time. What was he going to do, wuss out?
4. So he was only puking, no other symptoms, but couldn't start? Is this your ultimate scenario of what happened?
5. And if #4 is what you are saying, how do you absolutely know this? Were you there? Do you know exactly what was said? And then ultimately, that does bring up, how do you know if he wasn't lying?
6. You say if he was dizzy, he wouldn't have been able to call a play and then roll out at full speed. OK. I don't know if he was dizzy or not, but lets go with the symptom, "Confusion". He was able to fake it pretty good, as you and your brother point out aptly throughout (because everyone does it, right? It's just a part of football, right? People have the flu and go out and play) this happens all the time. But at some point, he gets confused. Or maybe his visual perspective was off WHILE confused. After all, he quite literally was just puking… Do you know to what extent he was sick? Other than puking, how severe were his symptoms, Sponge? My question for #6 is this. What symptoms did he have and how severe were they, since you KNOW he couldn't have the bad ones to affect his judgement… even though he made a bad judgement call… ?

So answer these points and that will get me a little further along in getting you some more articles, research or whatever. Please go point by point. I think that would be the clearest form of communication right now.

 

[wulffui]

Wulffui, I just gave you an example of Cooper throwing up on the field, during the game, and it was a game against Charleston S. When he caught his TD it was in the 2nd quarter, they were up by 14 in the first. Since the game was a blowout, the game was against a way inferior team, he clearly had the flu and was sick, why would Meyers risk him to make these decisions when the game was over.

You make my point for me- a kid throwing up ON THE FIELD was still healthy enough to be cleared FOR THE START OF THE GAME. So, wouldn't Tuel, NOT CLEARED to start, be WORSE than that? And you still wanna bring him in with the backup rolling?

Terrible coaching decision.

 

[425cougfan]

This flu subthread is silly. Playing a sick, puking Tuel against a hapless Idaho State squad was indefensible. If Wulff made the call to play Tuel out of purported necessity, that's dumb. If Tuel "talked his way" into playing, then Wulff was weak for letting him do so.

Let's also not forget what Loebbestael did in Tuel's absence in 2011:

208-341 for 61% completion percentage, a 19-8 TD-INT ratio, and a rating on ESPN of 138.3.

Compare this to what Tuel had done starting in 2010: 219-366 for a 59.8% completion percentage, a 18-12 TD-INT ratio, and a rating on ESPN of 133.3.

So not only was there no clear dropoff, Lobs' numbers in 2011 were better than Tuel's in 2010 across the board. My point here isn't that Lobs was better than Tuel. I also acknowledge that his arm was mediocre and that cut down the playbook to an extent. Finally, I'd also acknowledge that Tuel likely would have improved from 2010 to 2011 if healthy all year, and he stood to have a better year than he had in 2010.

It's not like WSU had QB play that fell off a cliff with Tuel out, though. Some would have you believe Wulff was having to run Lopina or Dan Wagner out there. It's very hard to know whether Tuel could have made the difference in the two close games WSU lost that year (or, for that matter, whether Tuel would have beaten Colorado, where Lobs went 32/49 for 376 yards and 3 TDs with only one pick, and where Embree's foolish decision to throw on third down was the deciding factor).

 

[spongebob11]

Good question. Don't know and I haven't seen any studies on specific symptoms, just population percentages that get the flu. BUT I'm not the one that is saying it didn't affect Tuel. It might have, it might not have. You are being definitive on this point. Your burden of proof, not mine.

But again, you are changing your rhetoric. Before it was that the flu doesn't affect choices. Now it's, if he had any symptoms, he wouldn't have gone in the game. Several points:
1. Why are you changing your point?
2. How do you know what was said between Tuel and the Doctor?
3. How do you know Tuel didn't lie because, as you said, he's a competitor. And as you and your brother have repeatedly pointed out, it happens all the time. What was he going to do, wuss out?
4. So he was only puking, no other symptoms, but couldn't start? Is this your ultimate scenario of what happened?
5. And if #4 is what you are saying, how do you absolutely know this? Were you there? Do you know exactly what was said? And then ultimately, that does bring up, how do you know if he wasn't lying?
6. You say if he was dizzy, he wouldn't have been able to call a play and then roll out at full speed. OK. I don't know if he was dizzy or not, but lets go with the symptom, "Confusion". He was able to fake it pretty good, as you and your brother point out aptly throughout (because everyone does it, right? It's just a part of football, right? People have the flu and go out and play) this happens all the time. But at some point, he gets confused. Or maybe his visual perspective was off WHILE confused. After all, he quite literally was just puking… Do you know to what extent he was sick? Other than puking, how severe were his symptoms, Sponge? My question for #6 is this. What symptoms did he have and how severe were they, since you KNOW he couldn't have the bad ones to affect his judgement… even though he made a bad judgement call… ?

So answer these points and that will get me a little further along in getting you some more articles, research or whatever. Please go point by point. I think that would be the clearest form of communication right now.

I'm sorry..but I really don't have time to go through that gigantic post and respond line by line.

What I will say is that if he was experiencing any of the symptoms that would mentally impaired him, he wouldn't be allowed tongo in the game.

It's common sense, really. His coaches would have noticed, hus teammates would have noticed.

Next time you meet a head coach, tell him that scenario..and ask him if he thinks the flu caused Tuel to take on a lb.

I'll do the same.

 

[Coug95man2]

I'm sorry..but I really don't have time to go through that gigantic post and respond line by line.

1. What I will say is that if he was experiencing any of the symptoms that would mentally impaired him, he wouldn't be allowed tongo in the game.

2. It's common sense, really. His coaches would have noticed, hus teammates would have noticed.

3. Next time you meet a head coach, tell him that scenario..and ask him if he thinks the flu caused Tuel to take on a lb.

I'll do the same.

I asked for 6 questions to be answered. You can go through post and post and post on the board but can't answer 6 questions on a specific thread…. OK. Then I'll respond to your post, line by line.

1. This is an odd sentence. If we was experiencing any symptoms, he wouldn't have been allowed into the game, you say. First, you're again assuming he didn't lie to the doctor and/or coach, again like you said… He's a competitor. AND you are assuming something didn't change in the symptoms. Have you ever been sick but then when you start to feel good, you go too far? All the sudden you are hammered by whatever sickness… AND you are assuming then, that he didn't have, virtually any symptoms. You are also saying, his symptoms were bad enough to not be able to start but lessened enough to go in later? I wish I would have had that strain of flu… any time in my life… if it actually exists.

2. Assumption the coaches would have noticed. And his teammates… you really think they are going to "snitch" on their field leader?!

3. I will never bring up something from this board and talk to a coach about it. Sorry but that ain't my style.

Ultimately, I'm saying there is something that is "possible". We are a third person in this scenario. Unless otherwise told, we have zero first hand knowledge of any of this. But with that said you are saying you KNOW what happened inside Jeff Tuel's body, his mind, what symptoms and to what extent as well as the conversation between Jeff Tuel and the Doctor as well as the coach. That sum it up?

 

[CougEd]

Good question. Don't know and I haven't seen any studies on specific symptoms, just population percentages that get the flu. BUT I'm not the one that is saying it didn't affect Tuel. It might have, it might not have. You are being definitive on this point. Your burden of proof, not mine.

But again, you are changing your rhetoric. Before it was that the flu doesn't affect choices. Now it's, if he had any symptoms, he wouldn't have gone in the game. Several points:
1. Why are you changing your point?
2. How do you know what was said between Tuel and the Doctor?
3. How do you know Tuel didn't lie because, as you said, he's a competitor. And as you and your brother have repeatedly pointed out, it happens all the time. What was he going to do, wuss out?
4. So he was only puking, no other symptoms, but couldn't start? Is this your ultimate scenario of what happened?
5. And if #4 is what you are saying, how do you absolutely know this? Were you there? Do you know exactly what was said? And then ultimately, that does bring up, how do you know if he wasn't lying?
6. You say if he was dizzy, he wouldn't have been able to call a play and then roll out at full speed. OK. I don't know if he was dizzy or not, but lets go with the symptom, "Confusion". He was able to fake it pretty good, as you and your brother point out aptly throughout (because everyone does it, right? It's just a part of football, right? People have the flu and go out and play) this happens all the time. But at some point, he gets confused. Or maybe his visual perspective was off WHILE confused. After all, he quite literally was just puking… Do you know to what extent he was sick? Other than puking, how severe were his symptoms, Sponge? My question for #6 is this. What symptoms did he have and how severe were they, since you KNOW he couldn't have the bad ones to affect his judgement… even though he made a bad judgement call… ?

95----if I may take a stab at it.

2. How do you know what was said between Tuel and the Doctor? Why does that matter? The doctor is well trained. They look at symptons, they look at all data you, I nor anyone else has. But they do have a protocol.

3. How do you know Tuel didn't lie because, as you said, he's a competitor. He easily could have lied. Again, the docs are trained, and to a lesser extent the training staff. He had multiple people taking care of him that day.

4. So he was only puking, no other symptoms, but couldn't start? Is this your ultimate scenario of what happened? Tons of reasons he couldn't start. Clearly it was related to the flu. Many players have played with the flu. I just gave two examples of it in Joe Haden and riley Cooper. One player in Cooper puked on the field during the game and Urban Meyers looked at the scoreboard and said this game is in the bag at 14-0 have a seat Riley. Actually, that isn't what happened at all. He played against a no name team. I don't know if Charleston Southern is in SC or WVa.

They could have started the treatments late for whatever reason. They may have wanted to take a precaution. There are a ton of reasons. But the doc cleared him. Docs make this call all the time. Marshawn Lynch puked. Sat out the first two series. Mike Scott at Arizona played after puking, some think because head to head collision, and he threw a TD against USC.

4) I wasn't there, you weren't, Wulffui wasn't. But you know who was? The training staff and the doc, both who are paid to evaluate the situation.

5). ???
6) How do we know a guy who was shot up with Tarazadol doesn't get confused? Again, he just left the attention of the training staff and the medical staff. It was his first series and everything that happened on that play he was alert. He wasn't confused. Only time that he was is when he should step out of bounds. That was within 5 minutes of being cleared by the staff.

 

[CougEd]

This flu subthread is silly. Playing a sick, puking Tuel against a hapless Idaho State squad was indefensible. If Wulff made the call to play Tuel out of purported necessity, that's dumb. If Tuel "talked his way" into playing, then Wulff was weak for letting him do so.

Let's also not forget what Loebbestael did in Tuel's absence in 2011:

208-341 for 61% completion percentage, a 19-8 TD-INT ratio, and a rating on ESPN of 138.3.

Compare this to what Tuel had done starting in 2010: 219-366 for a 59.8% completion percentage, a 18-12 TD-INT ratio, and a rating on ESPN of 133.3.

So not only was there no clear dropoff, Lobs' numbers in 2011 were better than Tuel's in 2010 across the board. My point here isn't that Lobs was better than Tuel. I also acknowledge that his arm was mediocre and that cut down the playbook to an extent. Finally, I'd also acknowledge that Tuel likely would have improved from 2010 to 2011 if healthy all year, and he stood to have a better year than he had in 2010.

It's not like WSU had QB play that fell off a cliff with Tuel out, though. Some would have you believe Wulff was having to run Lopina or Dan Wagner out there. It's very hard to know whether Tuel could have made the difference in the two close games WSU lost that year (or, for that matter, whether Tuel would have beaten Colorado, where Lobs went 32/49 for 376 yards and 3 TDs with only one pick, and where Embree's foolish decision to throw on third down was the deciding factor).

Cougfan...I wouldn't have played Tuel. I wouldn't have played Joe Haden. I wouldn't have played riley Cooper against Charleston Southern. But coaches do it all the time. I wouldn't have played Gronk in the last 8 minutes of a game against Indy where they were p by 24, which is the time he broke his arm on an extra point.

Coaches view it differently. It had a horrible consequence. But to act like Wulff is alone in making these type of decisions is not accurate.

 

[Coug95man2]

Unfortunately, because you posted within mine, your response won't "stick"…
Anyways, do you not see how you are making assumptions on each and every line? We are 3rd parties, here. Should we trust the doctor? Maybe but to deny what the flu is, how it works and go by you and Sponges ever present "eye ball test" to say he had no symptoms above the shoulders, is just plain crazy, IMHO. I don't know how much I really disagree with what you've stated most of the time on this topic, Ed. This started up again, because Sponge has never really been clear about his statements and the affects of the flu. The problem is, it's all assumption based on your visual assessment. We have zero immediate history, we have zero context (what symptoms was he having 1 hour prior to game. What symptoms was he having just before/during/after he was on the field) and he didn't start. He was sick enough that the doctor did NOT clear him to start. That's pretty sick because as you say, it happens all the time.

Here's a scenario… How long was he sick PRIOR to game time? A Day? Two? An hour? 6 hours? Lets just say he woke up in the middle of the night puking… He's exhausted from the chills, then the fever, the puking, he's just sore all over. JUST exhaustion from the symptoms… basically sleep deprivation… can cause poor judgement. Easily.

I can come up with scenario after scenario… It becomes a "what-if" game. And it's such because we are 3rd parties to the whole thing. You can come up with as many scenarios of the opposite view. And I'd agree they might be just as likely! But to say he unequivocally didn't have these symptoms is just… off. We are 3rd parties… I just don't get the hard line when you weren't even there to be a part of or with as first persons. I don't get the hard line when NO ONE (including the Doctor and coach) knows how he was feeling and the symptoms he had because… well… we aren't Jeff Tuel! Even if we were to ask him (and he not hit us)… It was such a defining moment, I don't know that he'd tell us! You guys just aren't making logical sense. All assumptions.

 

[425cougfan]

I hear you. I'm not on here trying to go on and on in critiquing a decision made in 2011 by an ex-coach. My point is just that speculation that that Wulff might have made a bowl in 2011 with Tuel at the helm has some serious flaws. One of those flaws is that it was Wulff's own coaching error (which I won't try to argue is uncommon) that saw Tuel getting hurt in a game he shouldn't have been playing in.

Cougfan...I wouldn't have played Tuel. I wouldn't have played Joe Haden. I wouldn't have played riley Cooper against Charleston Southern. But coaches do it all the time. I wouldn't have played Gronk in the last 8 minutes of a game against Indy where they were p by 24, which is the time he broke his arm on an extra point.

Coaches view it differently. It had a horrible consequence. But to act like Wulff is alone in making these type of decisions is not accurate.

 

[spongebob11]

I am saying it would pretty obvious to trainers, coaches, and teammates if he were dizzy or didn't have all his mental faculties....things that would cause him to take on a linebacker.

 

[Coug95man2]

I am saying it would pretty obvious to trainers, coaches, and teammates if he were dizzy or didn't have all his mental faculties....things that would cause him to take on a linebacker.

How do you know the severity of the symptoms, Sponge? Your whole point has been, he's good enough to be in, so he was good enough. Yet he made the QB 101 mistake, as you put it. Why would he do that?! You think that was clear thinking?!

 

[Cougatron]

Tron, there were enough db's to transition to the next coach.

No there weren't.

The 2010 Classes graduation year is 2013. Meaning 2010,2011,2012,2013 after that year they
are gone and what is left is the 2011 class

The 2011 Classes graduation end year is 2014 Meaning 2011,2012, 2013, 2014

So after the 2013 season we lost the 2010 class upperclassmen (Except for RS S Tracy Clark)
and for 2014 the 2011 class is the senior class. Of which we had 0.

The 2011 class contributed in zero games from 2012-2014.

So no there weren't players to transition to. Just like when you take 2 OL ...taking 1 DB in a class is definitely a bad idea from a roster management perspective.

 

[spongebob11]

How do you know the severity of the symptoms, Sponge? Your whole point has been, he's good enough to be in, so he was good enough. Yet he made the QB 101 mistake, as you put it. Why would he do that?! You think that was clear thinking?!

I think the reason why he did it was due to adrenaline....and he was pissed off and sick of losing.

That is a lot more rational than "the flu made me do it!"

Take both scenarios to any coach..mdont care which..mand ask him which is more likely.

This whole flu made him do it is absolutely ridiculous. There have been lots of epic performances while an athlete had the flu.

Michael Jordan's flu game comes to mind.

 

[wulffui]

I think the reason why he did it was due to adrenaline....and he was pissed off and sick of losing.

That is a lot more rational than "the flu made me do it!"

Take both scenarios to any coach..mdont care which..mand ask him which is more likely.

This whole flu made him do it is absolutely ridiculous. There have been lots of epic performances while an athlete had the flu.

Michael Jordan's flu game comes to mind.

I remember Jordan starting.

Take this question to a coach- given two players, one healthy enough to start the game, and one not healthy enough to start, which player is more likely to get hurt?

Because that's what you're ACTUALLY arguing against, not your ridiculous "THE FLU IS A MYTH!" tangent.

 

[CougEd]

No there weren't.

The 2010 Classes graduation year is 2013. Meaning 2010,2011,2012,2013 after that year they
are gone and what is left is the 2011 class

The 2011 Classes graduation end year is 2014 Meaning 2011,2012, 2013, 2014

So after the 2013 season we lost the 2010 class upperclassmen (Except for RS S Tracy Clark)
and for 2014 the 2011 class is the senior class. Of which we had 0.

The 2011 class contributed in zero games from 2012-2014.

So no there weren't players to transition to. Just like when you take 2 OL ...taking 1 DB in a class is definitely a bad idea from a roster management perspective.

What that means is they had two years of experience play. DB is teh easiest position to come in and play fairly effective right away. I am sure roster management dictated taking one DB in 2011. Is that ideal, nope. Just like Wulff in 2008 wher ehe had to get good lineman in the program right away, he did not. Leach had to get two cover CB's. Unfortunately, like Wulff with lineman in 2008 Leach had no margin of error. He struck out and you see what transpired.

 

[CPtheCoug]

No offense but why does Ed and Sponge keep responding to these topics...

No one here thinks they are "winning" any arguments, and at this point I am pretty sure a number of people simply won't let them "win" if its known they're wrong.

This back and forth has moved past entertaining, to down right annoying as hell.

I am all for debate, but this is silly. The only way forward would be ignoring them, or having them bring something tangible* to the table, or even having them finally admit they are wrong (pertaining to a number of things).

*For the obvious few who might have trouble with that word contextually, I am referring to tangible as "clear and definite; real".

 

[wulffui]

No offense but why does Ed and Sponge keep responding to these topics...

No one here thinks they are "winning" any arguments, and at this point I am pretty sure a number of people simply won't let them "win" if its known they're wrong.

This back and forth has moved past entertaining, to down right annoying as hell.

I am all for debate, but this is silly. The only way forward would be ignoring them, or having them bring something tangible* to the table, or even having them finally admit they are wrong (pertaining to a number of things).

*For the obvious few who might have trouble with that word contextually, I am referring to tangible as "clear and definite; real".

So, pretty much only option one, then?

 

[Cougatron]

What that means is they had two years of experience play. DB is teh easiest position to come in and play fairly effective right away. I am sure roster management dictated taking one DB in 2011. .

The only way Leach would have been able to thwart the problem was taking two JCs in the 2013 class.

If you have upperclassmen to play you will play them not the freshmen unless the freshmen are better. This is because experience/age (conditioning) is more valuable than raw talent.

If they benched Buchanon, Horton, Carpenter etc. and immediately played the freshmen in 2012/13 we wouldn't have the problem in 14, but obviously you shouldn't do that because it's dumb to do that.

When 2014 came the lack of anybody from 2011 hurt. If there were 2 corners etc. in there that stepped in as Seniors that could play then we would be fine. Tracy Clark was not a quality corner and as evident on the first play of Rutgers he lost his spot to freshmen.

The 2013 (Leach's first true class) DBs have the following players:

White, Lemora, and Brown.
Of those 3 all 3 would be starters if Brown hadn't been dismissed.

in 2014 we have
Hameed. Porter, Singleton, and Griffin.

so basically our starters in 2014 came from the 2013/2014 class with Taiulu being the lone person from 2012.

So we started RS Fresh/.True Fresh because there was nobody after the 2010 class. We missed a whole YEAR of people to put in because of 2011, and that impact was clear in 2014.

Defensive Back especially corner isn't as easy as you think to recruit to. In the past teams didn't throw as much as the do now.

Here's the passing offense rankings for Pac-12 teams last year:
#1 WSU, #6 Cal, #10 Oregon, #15 USC, #20 Coloardo, #22 Arizona, #32 Oregon State, #33 Arizona State# 43 UCLA.

That's 9 teams in the Pac 12 that are in the top 25% of the FBS in passing offense.

So if DBs are just everywhere and it's so easy to recruit then how on earth could that happen?

And the reality is that when you have Junior/Senior WRs in sophisticated passing offenses
going up against Freshmen Dbs they will absolutely murder them on the field. Even the experienced Junior/Senior dbs are having trouble.

Pac 12 passing defense rankings:
#93 Utah, #94 Oregon State, #96 UCLA, #103 Colorado, #106 Arizona State, #111 Oregon, #118 USC. #121 Arizona, #123 Washington, #127 Washington State, #128 Cal

11 out of 12 teams in the Pac 12 finished in the bottom 25% of the FBS in pass defense.

So it's not easy to recruit and have DBs that are good in the Pac 12. In fact right now it's kind of rare, so every single class is important. You can't have classes like we had in 2011 and not expect to get overwhelmed. It's hard enough when you do have 3 people from a class, but zero.. forget it.

 

[CougEd]

T

The only way Leach would have been able to thwart the problem was taking two JCs in the 2013 class.

If you have upperclassmen to play you will play them not the freshmen unless the freshmen are better. This is because experience/age (conditioning) is more valuable than raw talent.

If they benched Buchanon, Horton, Carpenter etc. and immediately played the freshmen in 2012/13 we wouldn't have the problem in 14, but obviously you shouldn't do that because it's dumb to do that.

When 2014 came the lack of anybody from 2011 hurt. If there were 2 corners etc. in there that stepped in as Seniors that could play then we would be fine. Tracy Clark was not a quality corner and as evident on the first play of Rutgers he lost his spot to freshmen.

The 2013 (Leach's first true class) DBs have the following players:

White, Lemora, and Brown.
Of those 3 all 3 would be starters if Brown hadn't been dismissed.

in 2014 we have
Hameed. Porter, Singleton, and Griffin.

so basically our starters in 2014 came from the 2013/2014 class with Taiulu being the lone person from 2012.

So we started RS Fresh/.True Fresh because there was nobody after the 2010 class. We missed a whole YEAR of people to put in because of 2011, and that impact was clear in 2014.

Defensive Back especially corner isn't as easy as you think to recruit to. In the past teams didn't throw as much as the do now.

Here's the passing offense rankings for Pac-12 teams last year:
#1 WSU, #6 Cal, #10 Oregon, #15 USC, #20 Coloardo, #22 Arizona, #32 Oregon State, #33 Arizona State# 43 UCLA.

That's 9 teams in the Pac 12 that are in the top 25% of the FBS in passing offense.

So if DBs are just everywhere and it's so easy to recruit then how on earth could that happen?

And the reality is that when you have Junior/Senior WRs in sophisticated passing offenses
going up against Freshmen Dbs they will absolutely murder them on the field. Even the experienced Junior/Senior dbs are having trouble.

Pac 12 passing defense rankings:
#93 Utah, #94 Oregon State, #96 UCLA, #103 Colorado, #106 Arizona State, #111 Oregon, #118 USC. #121 Arizona, #123 Washington, #127 Washington State, #128 Cal

11 out of 12 teams in the Pac 12 finished in the bottom 25% of the FBS in pass defense.

So it's not easy to recruit and have DBs that are good in the Pac 12. In fact right now it's kind of rare, so every single class is important. You can't have classes like we had in 2011 and not expect to get overwhelmed. It's hard enough when you do have 3 people from a class, but zero.. forget it.

Tron..no the way you "thwart" it is to get corners in 2012. They got them, they chose not to play on the defensive side of the ball. If you need to "assign" blame that is on Leach. Then knowing he didn't have corners, he could have gone the JC route as you suggested, he didn't. What class was Farrar in? Larue? A couple more misses. Those scholies he chose on high school kids and a transfer, and it didn't work out. So with 2011, then the next two years is why we are where were we are at. And if they just a little coverage in the secondary, just a little it would have meant at least one more win, if not two.

 

[spongebob11]

No offense but why does Ed and Sponge keep responding to these topics...

No one here thinks they are "winning" any arguments, and at this point I am pretty sure a number of people simply won't let them "win" if its known they're wrong.

This back and forth has moved past entertaining, to down right annoying as hell.

I am all for debate, but this is silly. The only way forward would be ignoring them, or having them bring something tangible* to the table, or even having them finally admit they are wrong (pertaining to a number of things).

*For the obvious few who might have trouble with that word contextually, I am referring to tangible as "clear and definite; real".

Why do you always worry about what me or Ed does? That has been your M.O. since you've been here. You do have an ignore option.

I'll include you in the flu makes qb's take on linebackers club.

Like the saying goes, the masses are asses. It applies perfectly well here.

 

[spongebob11]

I remember Jordan starting.

Take this question to a coach- given two players, one healthy enough to start the game, and one not healthy enough to start, which player is more likely to get hurt?

Because that's what you're ACTUALLY arguing against, not your ridiculous "THE FLU IS A MYTH!" tangent.

You have reading comprehension issues. Not sure where you extrapolated the flu is a myth from my posts. I said it doesn't make qb's take on linebackers. You claim it does.

I said the more rational explanation is that he had a lot of adrenaline going through his system and wanted to emphasize a point.

Only on this msg board does the flu make qb's take on linebackers and we were only a few mistakes away from winning 9 game last yr.

 

[Cougatron]

T

Tron..no the way you "thwart" it is to get corners in 2012. They got them, they chose not to play on the defensive side of the ball. If you need to "assign" blame that is on Leach. Then knowing he didn't have corners, he could have gone the JC route as you suggested, he didn't. What class was Farrar in? Larue? A couple more misses. Those scholies he chose on high school kids and a transfer, and it didn't work out. So with 2011, then the next two years is why we are where were we are at. And if they just a little coverage in the secondary, just a little it would have meant at least one more win, if not two.

Farrar and Larue are 4 star players that many people wanted. The fact they didn't work out is unfortunate, but at the same time they would still be freshmen.

2012 class doesn't mean anything because you would only take the JCs then if it was immediate need. This wasn't immediate because there were people for the the 2012 / 2013 season.

But in 2013 that is when they should have grabbed the JCs to be ready to go in 2014. 3 years to play 2. They sit out in 2013 and have two years 2014/15 to play.

Every single class had someone contribute in the secondary except 2011 in 2014, and the reason is there was 0 contribution to the program from that class.

A class that has zero contribution to a position to a unit that fields 4 players is most definitely a major a setback

Larue and Farrar are not the entire class. Just part of a class that you hope will work. 2011 had zero parts at all. There was nobody, and that screwed us in 2014.

 

[CPtheCoug]

Why do you always worry about what me or Ed does? That has been your M.O. since you've been here. You do have an ignore option.

I'll include you in the flu makes qb's take on linebackers club.

Like the saying goes, the masses are asses. It applies perfectly well here.

Actually my M.O. is learning about cougar football by reading a ton of material because I am a fan of the school. I don't learn anything from you, and frankly you are getting in the way of people who actually know what they are talking about.

The "substance" reading becomes tiresome when great topics get derailed by one or both of you. Seriously, you two are the constant in that regard.

I'd love to read what you have to say if you brought something tangible to the table, but you never do.

Also, I believe I said Wulff is ultimately responsible for the safety of his players, but hey whatever makes you feel good brotha.

Edit: I don't "ignore" either of you because I have misguided faith that EVENTUALLY you two will say something of worth. In that race, Ed has the edge over you.

 

[wulffui]

You have reading comprehension issues. Not sure where you extrapolated the flu is a myth from my posts. I said it doesn't make qb's take on linebackers. You claim it does.

I said the more rational explanation is that he had a lot of adrenaline going through his system and wanted to emphasize a point.

Only on this msg board does the flu make qb's take on linebackers and we were only a few mistakes away from winning 9 game last yr.

Hold on, we have a more rational look at the matter.

you are correct I have not found the exact same set of circumstances

So, I'll go with that, given you have ZERO examples like it. Your "reading comprehension" insult rings particularly hollow considering the constant need to explain things to you that are common sense to EVERYONE- like, oh, effects of the flu, because you've either a) never had the flu, or b) you're making stuff up.

Given your mountain of evidence, I'll take B.

 

[spongebob11]

Hold on, we have a more rational look at the matter.

So, I'll go with that, given you have ZERO examples like it. Your "reading comprehension" insult rings particularly hollow considering the constant need to explain things to you that are common sense to EVERYONE- like, oh, effects of the flu, because you've either a) never had the flu, or b) you're making stuff up.

Given your mountain of evidence, I'll take B.

We'll, you are welcome to submit your thesis that the flu causes qb's to take on linebackers to the NCAA....which is what you keep harping on; hence the well earned nickname Fluui.

Can't wait to hear back from them.

 

[wulffui]

We'll, you are welcome to submit your thesis that the flu causes qb's to take on linebackers to the NCAA....which is what you keep harping on; hence the well earned nickname Fluui.

Can't wait to hear back from them.

You're the one harping on it. I'm presenting an apparently SINGULAR STUPID COACHING DECISION IN ALL OF HISTORY, which you've defended with an opinion on the flu that has been roundly and completely mocked because it's stupid. Really, really stupid. And that's the BEST defense you could come up with.

And you don't know any others, so you should just stop, lest we wonder why you're Spingebob of the Flat Earth Society. OR NAME ONE SINGLE TIME it's ever happened like THE WORST COACH EVER HAD IT HAPPEN.

 

[spongebob11]

You're the one harping on it. I'm presenting an apparently SINGULAR STUPID COACHING DECISION IN ALL OF HISTORY. And you don't know any others, so you should just stop, lest we wonder why you're Spingebob of the Flat Earth Society.

OR NAME ONE SINGLE TIME it's ever happened like THE WORST COACH EVER HAD IT HAPPEN.

Again, plenty of players have played with the flu. You just want to jump up and down because a dumb decision backfired on "THE WORST COACH EVER HAD IT HAPPEN"...of which you name yourself after.

Coaches play players with the flu all the time. Could have been avoided if Tuel simply stepped out of bounds. You are too dense to realize that.

 

[wulffui]

Again, plenty of players have played with the flu. You just want to jump up and down because a dumb decision backfired on "THE WORST COACH EVER HAD IT HAPPEN"...of which you name yourself after.

Coaches play players with the flu all the time. Could have been avoided if Tuel simply stepped out of bounds. You are too dense to realize that.

Worst coach ever. Not a single other example.

You just admitted it right there, anyways. Shame his dumb decision didn't pay off big, like all his other dumb decision.

You know you're wrong. You just can't help defending Wulff at all costs.

 

[spongebob11]

Actually my M.O. is learning about cougar football by reading a ton of material because I am a fan of the school. I don't learn anything from you, and frankly you are getting in the way of people who actually know what they are talking about.

The "substance" reading becomes tiresome when great topics get derailed by one or both of you. Seriously, you two are the constant in that regard.

I'd love to read what you have to say if you brought something tangible to the table, but you never do.

Also, I believe I said Wulff is ultimately responsible for the safety of his players, but hey whatever makes you feel good brotha.

Edit: I don't "ignore" either of you because I have misguided faith that EVENTUALLY you two will say something of worth. In that race, Ed has the edge over you.

And all I've seen from you is bitching and complaining about what me or Ed does. I haven't learned anything from you, either...except that you come on this board out of the blue and try to call me out.

Its interesting that you only single me out on these discussions as they involve other parties as well.

 

[spongebob11]

Worst coach ever. Not a single other example.

You just admitted it right there, anyways.

Then why did you name yourself after him?

 

[wulffui]

Then why did you name yourself after him?

Not relevant at all. Why have you spent weeks defending what you just called a dumb decision, from a failure?

 

[dgibbons]

Cougfan...I wouldn't have played Tuel. I wouldn't have played Joe Haden. I wouldn't have played riley Cooper against Charleston Southern. But coaches do it all the time. I wouldn't have played Gronk in the last 8 minutes of a game against Indy where they were p by 24, which is the time he broke his arm on an extra point.

Coaches view it differently. It had a horrible consequence. But to act like Wulff is alone in making these type of decisions is not accurate.

Wulff made a stupid decision and it blew up in his face. Not the only stupid decision the guy made.

Again, plenty of players have played with the flu. You just want to jump up and down because a dumb decision backfired on "THE WORST COACH EVER HAD IT HAPPEN"...of which you name yourself after.

Coaches play players with the flu all the time. Could have been avoided if Tuel simply stepped out of bounds. You are too dense to realize that.

More easily prevented by not putting Tuel in the game.

 

[spongebob11]

Not relevant at all. Why have you spent weeks defending what you just called a dumb decision, from a failure?

I didn't say it was a dumb decision. I was quoting you.

And it is relevant because you blast Wulff on here every single day...yet you name yourself after him. Strange.

 

[CPtheCoug]

And all I've seen from you is bitching and complaining about what me or Ed does. I haven't learned anything from you, either...except that you come on this board out of the blue and try to call me out.

Its interesting that you only single me out on these discussions as they involve other parties as well.

In a loooooong time of lurking, and short time of posting, I've noticed Flat admit when he is wrong while also bringing substance to the table. Ed has brought substance to the table at times. A lot of people I disagree with bring something. You don't. You are un-apologetically insulting to other posters and myself; and you are also quick to lash out.

So we are focusing on you.

And I wouldn't call this "trying", this is called "doing".

You get in the way of people who know what they are talking about.

 

[spongebob11]

Wulff made a stupid decision and it blew up in his face. Not the only stupid decision the guy made.


More easily prevented by not putting Tuel in the game.

And Ed just showed you that other coaches make these same decisions all the time.

 

[wulffui]

I didn't say it was a dumb decision. I was quoting you.

And it is relevant because you blast Wulff on here every single day...yet you name yourself after him. Strange.

It's only relevant because you spend every day defending a guy who was 9-40, so since that's indefensible idiocy, you harping on the name thing.

And you weren't quoting me at all. You finally admitted what you actually think, and can't find a way off "the best way to absolve my hero Wulff is to deny the flu- I'm on it!" even though you must know how stupid you sound.

 

[wulffui]

And Ed just showed you that other coaches make these same decisions all the time.

Not like Wulff did. You've played football for at least 25 years and you can't name a one.