Macroeconomics

[95coug]

Haha what?! Thats quite the contradiction in limited words. If he took over at its worst how TF was it anemic 8 years later? Hint, it wasn’t.

You can spin economic prosperity depending on what channel you are watching. There’s zero question Obama left the economy much better than he found it…Trump, ha…not so much. Biden has F’d shit up arguably worse than Trump, that’s another argument.

Read better. The economy was anemic for eight years under Obama. He took over when the market was at its bottom, nowhere to go but up.

You’re both right and wrong.
Obama took over in recession, and we avoided sinking into depression. Growth was modest but continuous through his 8 years, about 1.5% in his first term, a little over 2 in his second. Unemployment fell continuously from 2011 until the pandemic, and was a pretty good 4.7% when BO left office. Job gains were also strong. All of these continued at very similar trends through Trumps first couple years, before the pandemic tanked them all.

So…Obama started off pretty close to the bottom, but the recovery during his tenure was steady and sustained for a long time. Trump did not inherit an economic mess, like he’s always claimed.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

You’re both right and wrong.
Obama took over in recession, and we avoided sinking into depression. Growth was modest but continuous through his 8 years, about 1.5% in his first term, a little over 2 in his second. Unemployment fell continuously from 2011 until the pandemic, and was a pretty good 4.7% when BO left office. Job gains were also strong. All of these continued at very similar trends through Trumps first couple years, before the pandemic tanked them all.

So…Obama started off pretty close to the bottom, but the recovery during his tenure was steady and sustained for a long time. Trump did not inherit an economic mess, like he’s always claimed.

Trump inherited a regulatory mess.

I'll keep saying until some gets it. Both presidents benefitted from free money from the Fed. You understand what this means?

Obama benefitted from starting in 2009 when the economy was in dire condition. His base for calculating CAGR was very low. That helps immensely. The Fed and demographics have more to do with economic growth than a president. It isn't even close either.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

There is no question that Trump screwed himself when turning over his presidency to the corrupt CDC and corrupt Fauci. He sealed his fate with that inexplicable decision. His instincts were correct when he almost canceled the lockdown on Easter Sunday 2020.

Had he not have done that, (the disastrous supply chain situation and the corrupt and self-serving politicians pumping trillions of dollars into the economy which led to horrible inflation and Fed interest rate hikes at a record pace would have been muted), he would have been president today (this is putting aside the federales tampering with the Biden laptop situation via pressuring social media outlets and the media in general to bury the legitimate story).

Your second paragraph is one sentence. Hate periods?

 

[dgibbons]

Donald Trump vs Barack Obama Stock Market, GDP, and Jobs Created

Compare Donald Trump and Barack Obama to see how they stack up on stock market performance, jobs and GDP growth

www.factsarefirst.com

Sorry for anyone who can’t get a boner tonight because of this. Not my intention but will always call bullshit when I see it.

Do you understand that Obama was elected in 2008, at the bottom of the market?

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Your second paragraph is one sentence. Hate periods?

Agree it was poorly written. I didn’t care though.

 

[Coug90]

Do you understand that Obama was elected in 2008, at the bottom of the market?

Ok. So is that an admission he handed over a humming economy to Trump? What’s your point?

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Ok. So is that an admission he handed over a humming economy to Trump? What’s your point?

If you think a 2016 real GDP growth rate of 1.6 percent yoy is “humming,” then “yes.”

😉

I looked up the U.S. GDP growth rate under GW Bush. Looks like it was 1.7 percent CAGR. Better than the Obama administration in 2016?

 

[Coug90]

If you think a 2016 real GDP growth rate of 1.6 percent yoy is “humming,” then “yes.”

😉

I looked up the U.S. GDP growth rate under GW Bush. Looks like it was 1.7 percent CAGR. Better than the Obama administration in 2016?

Now do Trump…that was the argument.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Now do Trump…that was the argument.

Does he get blamed for the economic impact of the pandemic? If so, is that fair? Looking for your opinion.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Does he get blamed for the economic impact of the pandemic? If so, is that fair? Looking for your opinion.

Trump tried hard to remove every regulatory hurdle that he could and gave corporations huge tax breaks under the deluded notion that it would get growth above 3%. In 2016, he bragged that 4% annual growth was going to become commonplace and maybe even 6%. FWIW, despite his every effort, he never got close to that 4%.

Here is a list of US GDP growth from 2009 to today:

Obama
2009: -2.60% (great recession courtesy of Republican policies)
2010: 2.71%
2011: 1.55%
2012: 2.28%
2013: 1.84%
2014: 2.29%
2015: 2.71%
2016: 1.67%

Trump
2017: 2.24%
2018: 2.95%
2019: 2.29%
2020: -2.77%

Biden
2021: 5.95%
2022: 2.06%

For all of the Trump bravado, his best year beat Obama's 7th year by a whopping 0.24% despite all of his efforts to free corporations from responsibility and taxes. Interestingly enough, GDP growth dropped after Republicans took over congress in 2018. When you look at the above list, it's pretty obvious that our country's natural economic growth is around 2%. Democratic stimulus after the pandemic caused issues because it allowed growth to significantly exceed that mark.

Even if liberal policies were part of the problem, you are delusional if you don't think that Trump wouldn't have done everything that he could to get that same 5.95% growth rate and in either case, we would have had the same mess. People love to imagine that Presidents make huge differences but the reality is that it's hard to really change things without repercussions. When you look at all of the artificial growth of the mid 2000's, the great recession happened because everything was resetting back to the 2% overall average.

We can waste energy talking about all of this, but the reality is that we would be far better off if our President and congressional leaders spent more time working together instead of the idiotic partisan crap that's going on.

 

[dgibbons]

Trump tried hard to remove every regulatory hurdle that he could and gave corporations huge tax breaks under the deluded notion that it would get growth above 3%. In 2016, he bragged that 4% annual growth was going to become commonplace and maybe even 6%. FWIW, despite his every effort, he never got close to that 4%.

Here is a list of US GDP growth from 2009 to today:

Obama
2009: -2.60% (great recession courtesy of Republican policies)
2010: 2.71%
2011: 1.55%
2012: 2.28%
2013: 1.84%
2014: 2.29%
2015: 2.71%
2016: 1.67%

Trump
2017: 2.24%
2018: 2.95%
2019: 2.29%
2020: -2.77%

Biden
2021: 5.95%
2022: 2.06%

For all of the Trump bravado, his best year beat Obama's 7th year by a whopping 0.24% despite all of his efforts to free corporations from responsibility and taxes. Interestingly enough, GDP growth dropped after Republicans took over congress in 2018. When you look at the above list, it's pretty obvious that our country's natural economic growth is around 2%. Democratic stimulus after the pandemic caused issues because it allowed growth to significantly exceed that mark.

Even if liberal policies were part of the problem, you are delusional if you don't think that Trump wouldn't have done everything that he could to get that same 5.95% growth rate and in either case, we would have had the same mess. People love to imagine that Presidents make huge differences but the reality is that it's hard to really change things without repercussions. When you look at all of the artificial growth of the mid 2000's, the great recession happened because everything was resetting back to the 2% overall average.

We can waste energy talking about all of this, but the reality is that we would be far better off if our President and congressional leaders spent more time working together instead of the idiotic partisan crap that's going on.

Wages and unemployment rate next.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Trump tried hard to remove every regulatory hurdle that he could and gave corporations huge tax breaks under the deluded notion that it would get growth above 3%. In 2016, he bragged that 4% annual growth was going to become commonplace and maybe even 6%. FWIW, despite his every effort, he never got close to that 4%.

Here is a list of US GDP growth from 2009 to today:

Obama
2009: -2.60% (great recession courtesy of Republican policies)
2010: 2.71%
2011: 1.55%
2012: 2.28%
2013: 1.84%
2014: 2.29%
2015: 2.71%
2016: 1.67%

Trump
2017: 2.24%
2018: 2.95%
2019: 2.29%
2020: -2.77%

Biden
2021: 5.95%
2022: 2.06%

For all of the Trump bravado, his best year beat Obama's 7th year by a whopping 0.24% despite all of his efforts to free corporations from responsibility and taxes. Interestingly enough, GDP growth dropped after Republicans took over congress in 2018. When you look at the above list, it's pretty obvious that our country's natural economic growth is around 2%. Democratic stimulus after the pandemic caused issues because it allowed growth to significantly exceed that mark.

Even if liberal policies were part of the problem, you are delusional if you don't think that Trump wouldn't have done everything that he could to get that same 5.95% growth rate and in either case, we would have had the same mess. People love to imagine that Presidents make huge differences but the reality is that it's hard to really change things without repercussions. When you look at all of the artificial growth of the mid 2000's, the great recession happened because everything was resetting back to the 2% overall average.

We can waste energy talking about all of this, but the reality is that we would be far better off if our President and congressional leaders spent more time working together instead of the idiotic partisan crap that's going on.

A few points in response...

You didn't address my question. That is an important question. Do you blame a global Black Swan event on the guy in the White House? I don't think that is fair. I have plenty of criticism for how Trump handled the pandemic, and that criticism extends to the corrupt Dems (and the Republicans, too). We found out once again, that these politicians only care about their job.

Second, as far as I know from what I've learmed over the decades, we have three branches of government: legislative, judicial, and administrative. The legislative branch makes law and is responsible for overseeing- via the various committees- the banking sector plus other sectors of the economy. This responsibility would include, for example, not allowing banks to carelessly lend money to unqualified borrowers to buy houses they couldn't afford and/or were speculative....and then package those high risk loans into mortgage backed securities. Who was in control of the House back in 2007 and 2008?

I will say it again since you don't appear to understand this. Fed policy and demographics have much more impact on our economic performance than the guy living in the White House. I won't give the president or congress a complete pass, as we have seen how this insane push for EV cars and going green, and the policies that have come out of that effort (including any policies and laws that reduce or slow down domestic oil and natural gas prodiction), drive up energy prices and place a drag on overall economic performance (plus the fact that they significantly hurt the middle class and poor people). The Dems have certainly done that and may pay a price (rightfully) in 2024, but the Fed and demographic realities drive US economic performance much more than the president.

One final point: it's generally more difficult to grow the economy as it gets larger. This is simply base effects. The maths get more challenging when you have an economy that's at, say, $20T GDP rather than at, for example, $10T. I think we agree on this.

Thus, despite the bluster from Trump, barring another large-scale technological breakthrough (like microchips, internet, etc. in the past), it will be difficult to have a sustained growth bump to >3.0% as the economy continues to get larger.

Again though, it isn't fair to specifically blame Trump for the economic impact of covid. He and and Congress should take blame for locking down the economy, which was an epic act of stupidity and irrational fear. It led to the mess we are seeing today in terms of inflation and much higher interest rates.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

A few points in response...

You didn't address my question. That is an important question. Do you blame a global Black Swan event on the guy in the White House? I don't think that is fair. I have plenty of criticism for how Trump handled the pandemic, and that criticism extends to the corrupt Dems (and the Republicans, too). We found out once again, that these politicians only care about their job.

Second, as far as I know from what I've learmed over the decades, we have three branches of government: legislative, judicial, and administrative. The legislative branch makes law and is responsible for overseeing- via the various committees- the banking sector plus other sectors of the economy. This responsibility would include, for example, not allowing banks to carelessly lend money to unqualified borrowers to buy houses they couldn't afford and/or were speculative....and then package those high risk loans into mortgage backed securities. Who was in control of the House back in 2007 and 2008?

I will say it again since you don't appear to understand this. Fed policy and demographics have much more impact on our economic performance than the guy living in the White House. I won't give the president or congress a complete pass, as we have seen how this insane push for EV cars and going green, and the policies that have come out of that effort (including any policies and laws that reduce or slow down domestic oil and natural gas prodiction), drive up energy prices and place a drag on overall economic performance (plus the fact that they significantly hurt the middle class and poor people). The Dems have certainly done that and may pay a price (rightfully) in 2024, but the Fed and demographic realities drive US economic performance much more than the president.

One final point: it's generally more difficult to grow the economy as it gets larger. This is simply base effects. The maths get more challenging when you have an economy that's at, say, $20T GDP rather than at, for example, $10T. I think we agree on this.

Thus, despite the bluster from Trump, barring another large-scale technological breakthrough (like microchips, internet, etc. in the past), it will be difficult to have a sustained growth bump to >3.0% as the economy continues to get larger.

Again though, it isn't fair to specifically blame Trump for the economic impact of covid. He and and Congress should take blame for locking down the economy, which was an epic act of stupidity and irrational fear. It led to the mess we are seeing today in terms of inflation and much higher interest rates.

I don't blame Trump for the crash after the pandemic. Only morons do that.

The high risk loans and other bullsh!t was happening before 2007 and 2008. The housing bubble started long before Democrats controlled the House and Senate. The sub-prime lending FUBAR mostly occurred between 2004 and 2006 and it wasn't viewed as a problem until home prices started to decline in mid-2006.

I agree 100% that Fed policy is more impactful than the President.

I will say that blaming the President for oil and gas production is a bit myopic. The reason why oil and gas investment dropped had more to do with oil prices than policies. OPEC+ controls international oil prices more than any domestic entity or person. When the price of oil futures are high....oil companies invest money. When it's low, they don't. FWIW, July 2023 oil production was only 9,000 barrels per day less than the peak during Trump's administration and next week, we'll likely hear that it is now exceeding production when Trump was President. The whole "Biden is killing the oil industry" is just propaganda bullsh!t. My daughter is a chemical engineering student and she will make $20k per year more working in the oil industry than in others. Doesn't sound like the oil companies are broke.

In the long run, we are better off getting away from being dependent on oil because as long as we are dependent on oil and the oil companies are looking at profits when making decisions....the countries in the Middle East have too much influence.

And again, I don't blame the COVID economic drop on Trump. He didn't make things better and he was a moron throughout...but that doesn't mean it was his fault.

 

[Coug90]

A few points in response...

You didn't address my question. That is an important question. Do you blame a global Black Swan event on the guy in the White House? I don't think that is fair. I have plenty of criticism for how Trump handled the pandemic, and that criticism extends to the corrupt Dems (and the Republicans, too). We found out once again, that these politicians only care about their job.

Second, as far as I know from what I've learmed over the decades, we have three branches of government: legislative, judicial, and administrative. The legislative branch makes law and is responsible for overseeing- via the various committees- the banking sector plus other sectors of the economy. This responsibility would include, for example, not allowing banks to carelessly lend money to unqualified borrowers to buy houses they couldn't afford and/or were speculative....and then package those high risk loans into mortgage backed securities. Who was in control of the House back in 2007 and 2008?

I will say it again since you don't appear to understand this. Fed policy and demographics have much more impact on our economic performance than the guy living in the White House. I won't give the president or congress a complete pass, as we have seen how this insane push for EV cars and going green, and the policies that have come out of that effort (including any policies and laws that reduce or slow down domestic oil and natural gas prodiction), drive up energy prices and place a drag on overall economic performance (plus the fact that they significantly hurt the middle class and poor people). The Dems have certainly done that and may pay a price (rightfully) in 2024, but the Fed and demographic realities drive US economic performance much more than the president.

One final point: it's generally more difficult to grow the economy as it gets larger. This is simply base effects. The maths get more challenging when you have an economy that's at, say, $20T GDP rather than at, for example, $10T. I think we agree on this.

Thus, despite the bluster from Trump, barring another large-scale technological breakthrough (like microchips, internet, etc. in the past), it will be difficult to have a sustained growth bump to >3.0% as the economy continues to get larger.

Again though, it isn't fair to specifically blame Trump for the economic impact of covid. He and and Congress should take blame for locking down the economy, which was an epic act of stupidity and irrational fear. It led to the mess we are seeing today in terms of inflation and much higher interest rates.

Gibbons wanted receipts I gave then to him. We probably had some bad calls the last few games but the numbers don’t lie and we got our butts kicked. Every president inherits something shitty or deals with something shitty during their presidency. How do they handle it? You can tell me all day how much you like trumps policies overall Vs whoever else and that’s fine you probably have some valid arguments. Hate Obama all you want, that’s fine too. Trump didn’t “beat” Obama on the economy. There’s zero data points that back that up and plenty to the contrary. Woulda coulda shoulda…just like a football game you got outplayed in.

 

[CougEd]

Holy shit, ED! Could you have gone any farther away from the topic I addressed? That first paragraph is strictly out of left field. WTH is wrong with you? Have you been waiting for weeks to throw something about Trump at me? How in the world did you twist that around to mean I am okay with trying to overturn elections? I have NEVER said that. I will point out that Trump does have constitutional rights to say what he wants to, and to petition the government to right a wrong. As many, many Democrats have also done over the years.

What is "rev evidence"?

Gotti? Really, Gotti? And exactly what did he have to do with elections, overturning elections, etc? Come on, man!

Ummm....I brought up Trump. My bad. I thought you said the reason Powell and Cheesehead flipped was because the prosecutor wants Trump and Rudy.

It is a cavalier attitude..."they flipped for economic reasons". No, they have the money to pay for attorneys. If they didn't do something illegal, like OJ, they would spend their money(like OJ did) and not plead guilty to a misdemeanor in Powell's case, and felony in Cheddar Cheese's case. They aren't Rudy who drank his money away.

Yes, Trump has the absolute right to claim the election was stolen. His remedies are in the court, and he lost over 60 times. Even Wulff won more than that. What was he 1-61? So he did petition and lost. Barr said there was no fraud, Krebs said there was no fraud. The courts said there was no fraud. Even Rudy would not go in court and say there was fraud.

The point about Gotti was "rats". That is what Trump calls them as well. Many said Gotti was targeted unfairly, until they had the final trial. Gotti was a cult hero.

Willis may not have the goods on Trump. That is why we have the judicial system. That's why he is going to court at some point. My guess by Thanksgiving there may be two or three who haven't' pled.

First one off the Trump train got a sweet heart deal- a misdemeanor. Cheeseman is now a convicted felon. Pled guilty to a felony. An attorney wit a felony conviction.

I do have to say Trump sure has a friend problem. How many have been convicted of wrong doing by the courts. Manafort to start with....hell he only embezzled 15 million...for his actions he received a pardon.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I don't blame Trump for the crash after the pandemic. Only morons do that.

The high risk loans and other bullsh!t was happening before 2007 and 2008. The housing bubble started long before Democrats controlled the House and Senate. The sub-prime lending FUBAR mostly occurred between 2004 and 2006 and it wasn't viewed as a problem until home prices started to decline in mid-2006.

I agree 100% that Fed policy is more impactful than the President.

I will say that blaming the President for oil and gas production is a bit myopic. The reason why oil and gas investment dropped had more to do with oil prices than policies. OPEC+ controls international oil prices more than any domestic entity or person. When the price of oil futures are high....oil companies invest money. When it's low, they don't. FWIW, July 2023 oil production was only 9,000 barrels per day less than the peak during Trump's administration and next week, we'll likely hear that it is now exceeding production when Trump was President. The whole "Biden is killing the oil industry" is just propaganda bullsh!t. My daughter is a chemical engineering student and she will make $20k per year more working in the oil industry than in others. Doesn't sound like the oil companies are broke.

In the long run, we are better off getting away from being dependent on oil because as long as we are dependent on oil and the oil companies are looking at profits when making decisions....the countries in the Middle East have too much influence.

And again, I don't blame the COVID economic drop on Trump. He didn't make things better and he was a moron throughout...but that doesn't mean it was his fault.

I used to have a dog. Lloyd. He had been in the pound for a year, no one wanted him because he was too wild. Me and then wife said Hell, we'll take him. Hilarious driving him home in the truck and his head was between wifey's legs. Be cool dog! I would buy him those cattle ribs you can get at Winco. He would literally eat those things. I finally quit giving them.

So what? A dog on a bone. That's what you guys are at this point. When does it end?

The USA has major problems. The border (why do we let them cross in the first place? and yeah I'm in favor of more fence in strategic places.). Two wars that could suck us in. Social Security. The deficit. Etc. Meanwhile the billionaires (you know, those guys that got a tax break from Trump) cruise around in their multi multi million dollar yachts.

I don't give a shit about the GDP. I do care about the stock market, as much of my retirement is in equities. The bigger concern I have is our reliance on China (and others?) for some of our most important goods. Microchips, whatever. We need to get production of these critical items back over here in America. If China boycotted us, we would be so F-ed. Meanwhile we are over there rattling our saber over Taiwan.

Putting Trump back in the White House would be catastrophic to this country. I cannot believe that any sane American could support him at any level. I'm no fan of Biden, but he is the only D who can beat that Orange POS. He is a criminal and a pathological liar. I do hope Biden picks a different running mate, some semi stable D who we could trust in case old Joe goes kaput. Kamala can go be an Ambassador.

The House is so f-ed up on both sides. We should take Omar and Tlaib and parachute them into Gaza. Along with those demonstrating students that don't know shit. They can watch the hostages get murdered. Boebert and MTG and Gosar need to be taken out and shot. Although I think Boebert might be primaried, and the dem that lost by 500 votes is waiting in the wings for the general.

I started this thread with the question: "what are the R's going to do after canning McCarthy?" Well we know now. Just as I thought. They had no plan. Jim Jordan is a POS. What "we" need to do is find some moderate R who would be better than that. Low bar to jump. Get 20 or so R's to support him, and then convince the entire D caucus to vote for him. Problem solved.

Now get off the bone guys, and maybe Gawd forbid get back to Cougar sports. And Kangaroos. I want one of those Kangaroo claw backscratchers. I'd hang it over my bed along with my riding crop.

Amazon product ASIN B07CSSNSPC

 

[CougEd]

I used to have a dog. Lloyd. He had been in the pound for a year, no one wanted him because he was too wild. Me and then wife said Hell, we'll take him. Hilarious driving him home in the truck and his head was between wifey's legs. Be cool dog! I would buy him those cattle ribs you can get at Winco. He would literally eat those things. I finally quit giving them.

So what? A dog on a bone. That's what you guys are at this point. When does it end?

The USA has major problems. The border (why do we let them cross in the first place? and yeah I'm in favor of more fence in strategic places.). Two wars that could suck us in. Social Security. The deficit. Etc. Meanwhile the billionaires (you know, those guys that got a tax break from Trump) cruise around in their multi multi million dollar yachts.

I don't give a shit about the GDP. I do care about the stock market, as much of my retirement is in equities. The bigger concern I have is our reliance on China (and others?) for some of our most important goods. Microchips, whatever. We need to get production of these critical items back over here in America. If China boycotted us, we would be so F-ed. Meanwhile we are over there rattling our saber over Taiwan.

Putting Trump back in the White House would be catastrophic to this country. I cannot believe that any sane American could support him at any level. I'm no fan of Biden, but he is the only D who can beat that Orange POS. He is a criminal and a pathological liar. I do hope Biden picks a different running mate, some semi stable D who we could trust in case old Joe goes kaput. Kamala can go be an Ambassador.

The House is so f-ed up on both sides. We should take Omar and Tlaib and parachute them into Gaza. Along with those demonstrating students that don't know shit. They can watch the hostages get murdered. Boebert and MTG and Gosar need to be taken out and shot. Although I think Boebert might be primaried, and the dem that lost by 300 votes is waiting in the wings for the general.

I started this thread with the question: "what are the R's going to do after canning McCarthy?" Well we know now. Just as I thought. They had no plan. Jim Jordan is a POS. What "we" need to do is find some moderate R who would be better than that. Low bar to jump. Get 20 or so R's to support him, and then convince the entire D caucus to vote for him. Problem solved.

Now get off the bone guys, and maybe Gawd forbid get back to Cougar sports. And Kangaroos. I want one of those Kangaroo claw backscratchers. I'd hang it over my bed along with my riding crop.

View embedded media

Gaza....I had an interesting dinner with a friend of mine. His wife is Jewish, he was raised Irish Catholic. I asked him about the situation. You know what he said..."I believe in self determination, and you get this behavior when you have your boots on the neck's of people for decades upon decades. He compared it to the struggle that happened in Ireland.

He in no way justified what happened, but rather dealing with the causation of the anger that in part fuels what is happening.

And for the Palestinians, they would have been wise to see how India dealt with the English oppressor's. With non violence they made the English look horrible in the eyes of the world.

 

[dgibbons]

Gibbons wanted receipts I gave then to him. We probably had some bad calls the last few games but the numbers don’t lie and we got our butts kicked. Every president inherits something shitty or deals with something shitty during their presidency. How do they handle it? You can tell me all day how much you like trumps policies overall Vs whoever else and that’s fine you probably have some valid arguments. Hate Obama all you want, that’s fine too. Trump didn’t “beat” Obama on the economy. There’s zero data points that back that up and plenty to the contrary. Woulda coulda shoulda…just like a football game you got outplayed in.

What receipts did I want and what receipts did you provide?

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Gibbons wanted receipts I gave then to him. We probably had some bad calls the last few games but the numbers don’t lie and we got our butts kicked. Every president inherits something shitty or deals with something shitty during their presidency. How do they handle it? You can tell me all day how much you like trumps policies overall Vs whoever else and that’s fine you probably have some valid arguments. Hate Obama all you want, that’s fine too. Trump didn’t “beat” Obama on the economy. There’s zero data points that back that up and plenty to the contrary. Woulda coulda shoulda…just like a football game you got outplayed in.

Where did I say I "hate" Obama? He's a nothing to me.

He, like most politicians, are good scammers. They make enough people think they care and that gains them more power. Same old same old.

But you said that the economy was "humming along" when Obama turned over his presidency to Trump. I asked you if 1.7% GDP growth was "humming along" considering it was not very impressive and also below trend for US GDP growth. I think you changed the subject. 😀

I am also asked you if Trump should be blamed for a Black Swan event like covid, and its impact to our economy? I don't think you answered directly. That event was not like anything that Obama of most prior presidents have faced. You can blame him if you want, but I don't think that is entirely fair.

 

[95coug]

I don't blame Trump for the crash after the pandemic. Only morons do that.

The high risk loans and other bullsh!t was happening before 2007 and 2008. The housing bubble started long before Democrats controlled the House and Senate. The sub-prime lending FUBAR mostly occurred between 2004 and 2006 and it wasn't viewed as a problem until home prices started to decline in mid-2006.

I agree 100% that Fed policy is more impactful than the President.

I will say that blaming the President for oil and gas production is a bit myopic. The reason why oil and gas investment dropped had more to do with oil prices than policies. OPEC+ controls international oil prices more than any domestic entity or person. When the price of oil futures are high....oil companies invest money. When it's low, they don't. FWIW, July 2023 oil production was only 9,000 barrels per day less than the peak during Trump's administration and next week, we'll likely hear that it is now exceeding production when Trump was President. The whole "Biden is killing the oil industry" is just propaganda bullsh!t. My daughter is a chemical engineering student and she will make $20k per year more working in the oil industry than in others. Doesn't sound like the oil companies are broke.

In the long run, we are better off getting away from being dependent on oil because as long as we are dependent on oil and the oil companies are looking at profits when making decisions....the countries in the Middle East have too much influence.

And again, I don't blame the COVID economic drop on Trump. He didn't make things better and he was a moron throughout...but that doesn't mean it was his fault.

Exxon made over $11B in profit in the first quarter of 2023. Shell was over $9B, Chevron over $6B. They’re doing just fine, low oil prices be damned. And, for some reason we continue to pay $4-5B per year in subsidies to oil companies (that number gets a lot bigger when you include other fossil fuels). This doesn’t include tax incentives and loopholes either.

When I get elected, the oil companies start paying full freight. Their subsidies and incentives go to the industries that will replace them.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Exxon made over $11B in profit in the first quarter of 2023. Shell was over $9B, Chevron over $6B. They’re doing just fine, low oil prices be damned. And, for some reason we continue to pay $4-5B per year in subsidies to oil companies (that number gets a lot bigger when you include other fossil fuels). This doesn’t include tax incentives and loopholes either.

When I get elected, the oil companies start paying full freight. Their subsidies and incentives go to the industries that will replace them.

There are subsidies all over the place. Welcome to crony capitalism USA. The oil companies haven't cornered the market on subsidies. Big Pharma, "Green" companies, Big Tech, Big Education, etc. The list goes on and on.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

There are subsidies all over the place. Welcome to crony capitalism USA. The oil companies haven't cornered the market on subsidies. Big Pharma, "Green" companies, Big Tech, Big Education, etc. The list goes on and on.

And yet there are folks who are quick to level accusations that subsidies for EV's are terrible and that it's criminal for our government to support them.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

And yet there are folks who are quick to level accusations that subsidies for EV's are terrible and that it's criminal for our government to support them.

Yes, subsidizing the upper middle class and upper class is a nice practice our corrupt leaders seem to love to do.

Reference free money from the Fed for years during Obama and Trump and Biden (until March 2022).

Let the market decide for all industries. No subsidies. No free money.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

And yet there are folks who are quick to level accusations that subsidies for EV's are terrible and that it's criminal for our government to support them.

By the way, you claim to be a moderate, but there is zero evidence for that by your positions on everything.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

By the way, you claim to be a moderate, but there is zero evidence for that by your positions on everything.

I believe in security at the border by focusing on trouble areas but allowing enough immigration to support industries that use immigrant labor. We should absolutely wreck companies that are hiring illegal immigrants. Once we have our sh!t together on the right amount of legal immigration, illegal immigrants should be flown home to their countries of origin immediately, regardless of age.

I don't think that abortion should be illegal, but I think that reasonable restrictions should be in place.

I don't think purchasing firearms should be as easy as it is, but I believe in the right to bear arms once someone has demonstrated the competence and training to actually own one. Red flag laws need to exist.

I believe that the liberals go way too far with some of their regulatory oversight desires but I also understand that without any regulations, corporations would gladly destroy our planet for profit.

I believe that EV's are the future and that we need to quit burning fossil fuels in as many vehicles as possible, but I also believe that completely outlawing ICE vehicles is moronic and myopic. People should have choice in what kind of vehicle they drive.

I don't have a problem with voter ID laws, but I recognize that the GOP's efforts in that area are not intended to produce a fair and accurate vote....it's to discourage voters that lean Democrat to vote.

I believe that a robust and well trained police force is necessary but I believe that we should harshly punish officers that abuse their authority. We need to put more money into providing the right kind of police force and less on jack booted thugs emulating Cartman. Criminals should always be punished. If it were my call, breaking big rocks into little rocks would be a thing. Thieves who steal from stores should have to spend 10 hours a week picking up trash, scrubbing toilets and spraying lubricant on cart wheels.

Social programs like SNAP, WIC and TANF are genuinely helpful programs that have bettered the lives of millions of kids....but they are routinely abused and should never be permanent sources of income. We need to be more pro-active in moving people off those programs with education and training. If I were king, people on those programs would have to put in hours working in some capacity. It's tougher than it sounds though.

I think transgender bathroom laws are moronic....but I think it's criminal to allow a biological boy participate in athletics as a girl.

Gerrymandering should be outlawed altogether. Both parties suck and neither should get to pick maps. Draw me some freaking rectangles.

Is that moderate?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I believe in security at the border by focusing on trouble areas but allowing enough immigration to support industries that use immigrant labor. We should absolutely wreck companies that are hiring illegal immigrants. Once we have our sh!t together on the right amount of legal immigration, illegal immigrants should be flown home to their countries of origin immediately, regardless of age.

I don't think that abortion should be illegal, but I think that reasonable restrictions should be in place.

I don't think purchasing firearms should be as easy as it is, but I believe in the right to bear arms once someone has demonstrated the competence and training to actually own one. Red flag laws need to exist.

I believe that the liberals go way too far with some of their regulatory oversight desires but I also understand that without any regulations, corporations would gladly destroy our planet for profit.

I believe that EV's are the future and that we need to quit burning fossil fuels in as many vehicles as possible, but I also believe that completely outlawing ICE vehicles is moronic and myopic. People should have choice in what kind of vehicle they drive.

I don't have a problem with voter ID laws, but I recognize that the GOP's efforts in that area are not intended to produce a fair and accurate vote....it's to discourage voters that lean Democrat to vote.

I believe that a robust and well trained police force is necessary but I believe that we should harshly punish officers that abuse their authority. We need to put more money into providing the right kind of police force and less on jack booted thugs emulating Cartman. Criminals should always be punished. If it were my call, breaking big rocks into little rocks would be a thing. Thieves who steal from stores should have to spend 10 hours a week picking up trash, scrubbing toilets and spraying lubricant on cart wheels.

Social programs like SNAP, WIC and TANF are genuinely helpful programs that have bettered the lives of millions of kids....but they are routinely abused and should never be permanent sources of income. We need to be more pro-active in moving people off those programs with education and training. If I were king, people on those programs would have to put in hours working in some capacity. It's tougher than it sounds though.

I think transgender bathroom laws are moronic....but I think it's criminal to allow a biological boy participate in athletics as a girl.

Gerrymandering should be outlawed altogether. Both parties suck and neither should get to pick maps. Draw me some freaking rectangles.

Is that moderate?

OK AOC.

Totally kidding. I could have written that post about my viewpoints. Right on, moderate and sensible solutions to some of our biggest problems.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I believe in security at the border by focusing on trouble areas but allowing enough immigration to support industries that use immigrant labor. We should absolutely wreck companies that are hiring illegal immigrants. Once we have our sh!t together on the right amount of legal immigration, illegal immigrants should be flown home to their countries of origin immediately, regardless of age.

I don't think that abortion should be illegal, but I think that reasonable restrictions should be in place.

I don't think purchasing firearms should be as easy as it is, but I believe in the right to bear arms once someone has demonstrated the competence and training to actually own one. Red flag laws need to exist.

I believe that the liberals go way too far with some of their regulatory oversight desires but I also understand that without any regulations, corporations would gladly destroy our planet for profit.

I believe that EV's are the future and that we need to quit burning fossil fuels in as many vehicles as possible, but I also believe that completely outlawing ICE vehicles is moronic and myopic. People should have choice in what kind of vehicle they drive.

I don't have a problem with voter ID laws, but I recognize that the GOP's efforts in that area are not intended to produce a fair and accurate vote....it's to discourage voters that lean Democrat to vote.

I believe that a robust and well trained police force is necessary but I believe that we should harshly punish officers that abuse their authority. We need to put more money into providing the right kind of police force and less on jack booted thugs emulating Cartman. Criminals should always be punished. If it were my call, breaking big rocks into little rocks would be a thing. Thieves who steal from stores should have to spend 10 hours a week picking up trash, scrubbing toilets and spraying lubricant on cart wheels.

Social programs like SNAP, WIC and TANF are genuinely helpful programs that have bettered the lives of millions of kids....but they are routinely abused and should never be permanent sources of income. We need to be more pro-active in moving people off those programs with education and training. If I were king, people on those programs would have to put in hours working in some capacity. It's tougher than it sounds though.

I think transgender bathroom laws are moronic....but I think it's criminal to allow a biological boy participate in athletics as a girl.

Gerrymandering should be outlawed altogether. Both parties suck and neither should get to pick maps. Draw me some freaking rectangles.

Is that moderate?

Let’s remember that the materials mined to support EVs involve incredibly destructive practices that harm the environment.

Working conditions in countries in the global south and environment impacts are also devastating. But because it is in poor countries we just brush that under the proverbial rug.

At least the upper middle class and wealthy can feel good about saving the world while poor countries get trashed in ways we don’t fully understand. With oil extraction, the environmental impact is much lower. EV battery rare earth metals mining involves large scale strip mining that poisons local water supplies for decades.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I believe in security at the border by focusing on trouble areas but allowing enough immigration to support industries that use immigrant labor. We should absolutely wreck companies that are hiring illegal immigrants. Once we have our sh!t together on the right amount of legal immigration, illegal immigrants should be flown home to their countries of origin immediately, regardless of age.

I don't think that abortion should be illegal, but I think that reasonable restrictions should be in place.

I don't think purchasing firearms should be as easy as it is, but I believe in the right to bear arms once someone has demonstrated the competence and training to actually own one. Red flag laws need to exist.

I believe that the liberals go way too far with some of their regulatory oversight desires but I also understand that without any regulations, corporations would gladly destroy our planet for profit.

I believe that EV's are the future and that we need to quit burning fossil fuels in as many vehicles as possible, but I also believe that completely outlawing ICE vehicles is moronic and myopic. People should have choice in what kind of vehicle they drive.

I don't have a problem with voter ID laws, but I recognize that the GOP's efforts in that area are not intended to produce a fair and accurate vote....it's to discourage voters that lean Democrat to vote.

I believe that a robust and well trained police force is necessary but I believe that we should harshly punish officers that abuse their authority. We need to put more money into providing the right kind of police force and less on jack booted thugs emulating Cartman. Criminals should always be punished. If it were my call, breaking big rocks into little rocks would be a thing. Thieves who steal from stores should have to spend 10 hours a week picking up trash, scrubbing toilets and spraying lubricant on cart wheels.

Social programs like SNAP, WIC and TANF are genuinely helpful programs that have bettered the lives of millions of kids....but they are routinely abused and should never be permanent sources of income. We need to be more pro-active in moving people off those programs with education and training. If I were king, people on those programs would have to put in hours working in some capacity. It's tougher than it sounds though.

I think transgender bathroom laws are moronic....but I think it's criminal to allow a biological boy participate in athletics as a girl.

Gerrymandering should be outlawed altogether. Both parties suck and neither should get to pick maps. Draw me some freaking rectangles.

Is that moderate?

You know my view on abortion. It is horrible and immoral. There is no excuse for it. Something like 97%+ percent of abortions is used as a birth control method. No more “safe, RARE, and legal” claims by the left. I guess they were lying all along. They only care about the first and third requirement. Shocking, eh?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You know my view on abortion. It is horrible and immoral. There is no excuse for it. Something like 97%+ percent of abortions is used as a birth control method. No more “safe, RARE, and legal” claims by the left. I guess they were lying all along. They only care about the first and third requirement. Shocking, eh?

I'm not on board with a lot of the left's views of abortions....but there are situations where it should be an option. Here in Kansas, the reason the abortion bill failed last year was because they wouldn't even have allowed abortions where the mother might die without getting one or in cases of rape and incest.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I'm not on board with a lot of the left's views of abortions....but there are situations where it should be an option. Here in Kansas, the reason the abortion bill failed last year was because they wouldn't even have allowed abortions where the mother might die without getting one or in cases of rape and incest.

From a logical standpoint, I don’t see why this is the child’s fault. I’ve never been able to square that circle.

Pro abortion people proclaim “my body, my choice!” while lacking the self-awareness to understand that they completely ignored this principle during Covid regarding the jabs.

The issue is there is ANOTHER body inside of the woman. It isn’t your body. You aren’t God. Logic fail.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

From a logical standpoint, I don’t see why this is the child’s fault. I’ve never been able to square that circle.

Pro abortion people proclaim “my body, my choice!” while lacking the self-awareness to understand that they completely ignored this principle during Covid regarding the jabs.

The issue is there is ANOTHER body inside of the woman. It isn’t your body. You aren’t God. Logic fail.

COVID? LOL.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

COVID? LOL.

Sure. Either you believe in my body, my choice or you STFU and quit your hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy. That’s why I can’t stand politicians and liberals.

 

[Coug90]

Sure. Either you believe in my body, my choice or you STFU and quit your hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy. That’s why I can’t stand politicians and liberals.

Pro life, not the unborn child’s fault? I can get behind that. Hate hypocrisy? F’n A right, couldn’t agree more. Now tell us your thoughts on our gun laws. Asking for 6000 dead or injured kids who aren’t at fault for being dead or injured.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Pro life, not the unborn child’s fault? I can get behind that. Hate hypocrisy? F’n A right, couldn’t agree more. Now tell us your thoughts on our gun laws. Asking for 6000 dead or injured kids who aren’t at fault for being dead or injured.

What specific law or lack of laws are you referring to? We’ve seen numerous laws that are not enforced. Recall the “kid” who took his grandma’s fun and shot up the school killing scores of beautiful children? What is the law you’d propose? I’m all for making her have some responsibility for allowing that to happen.

 

[Coug90]

What specific law or lack of laws are you referring to? We’ve seen numerous laws that are not enforced. Recall the “kid” who took his grandma’s fun and shot up the school killing scores of beautiful children? What is the law you’d propose? I’m all for making her have some responsibility for allowing that to happen.

Why are you asking me, you’re the one who finds it incomprehensible to lose the life of a faultless child, which I agree with. Shootings are now the leading cause of death for children. I’m on board with your mission, let’s hear some ideas!

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Why are you asking me, you’re the one who finds it incomprehensible to lose the life of a faultless child, which I agree with. Shootings are now the leading cause of death for children. I’m on board with your mission, let’s hear some ideas!

You made the claim about lack of laws. I want to understand which laws. Like I said, we have gun laws that are mostly ignored in some jurisdictions. Laws don't matter if they aren't enforced.

 

[95coug]

There are subsidies all over the place. Welcome to crony capitalism USA. The oil companies haven't cornered the market on subsidies. Big Pharma, "Green" companies, Big Tech, Big Education, etc. The list goes on and on.

Yes there are. But I’m going after the oil ones first because they’re the most ridiculous. Subsidizing companies that turn multibillion dollar profits every 3 months is moronic.

Subsidies - if they’re used - should be to support an industry that either provides a critical service with broad benefit that can’t yet support itself (Examples would be rare. Advanced battery tech? Fusion? Star Trek transporters?), or industries that consumers haven’t yet figured out are the future. Not sure what that would be, because it’s pretty rare that legislators can see the future before people do.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Sure. Either you believe in my body, my choice or you STFU and quit your hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy. That’s why I can’t stand politicians and liberals.

I laughed about COVID because it’s ****ing lazy as hell to throw “what about COVID” at everything.

As far as hypocrisy about choice, both parties are guilty on that front and nobody from the right should ever talk sh!t on liberals.

The GOP loves to talk about small government and reducing regulations but they really only mean when it benefits their agenda.

And while you are entitled to your views on abortion, I find it abhorrent to tell a woman that her life doesn't matter and it's acceptable for her to die for your cause, it's reprehensible to tell a rape victim that she has to bear and raise a child from a rapist and incest is terrible and we should never force a teenager to raise a kid from incest. I agree that too many women do use abortion as birth control and that's not a good thing. So....as a moderate.....I believe that a compromise is a better solution.

And for those of religious leaning who hate abortion....perhaps it is better to let our Lord do the judging instead of us? There's this fella named Jesus who kind of lectured folks on forcing their views on other people.

 

[Coug90]

You made the claim about lack of laws. I want to understand which laws. Like I said, we have gun laws that are mostly ignored in some jurisdictions. Laws don't matter if they aren't enforced.

Not sure where the idea comes from they aren’t enforced…let’s say they aren’t. Crimes committed with assault weapons dropped by 70% a decade after the assault weapons ban. I’m not suggesting that’s the answer I’m just providing a pretty direct result of a law put into place.

You want abortion bans/laws in place right? If laws aren’t enforced as you’re suggesting, what’s the point of abortion laws? By your logic anyone who wants one will get one anyways. There’s a black market for abortions same as there is for guns, drugs, anything else illegal, no?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I laughed about COVID because it’s ****ing lazy as hell to throw “what about COVID” at everything.

As far as hypocrisy about choice, both parties are guilty on that front and nobody from the right should ever talk sh!t on liberals.

The GOP loves to talk about small government and reducing regulations but they really only mean when it benefits their agenda.

And while you are entitled to your views on abortion, I find it abhorrent to tell a woman that her life doesn't matter and it's acceptable for her to die for your cause, it's reprehensible to tell a rape victim that she has to bear and raise a child from a rapist and incest is terrible and we should never force a teenager to raise a kid from incest. I agree that too many women do use abortion as birth control and that's not a good thing. So....as a moderate.....I believe that a compromise is a better solution.

And for those of religious leaning who hate abortion....perhaps it is better to let our Lord do the judging instead of us? There's this fella named Jesus who kind of lectured folks on forcing their views on other people.

Spot on again Flat. I'm pro choice, but would support limits on term. 8 weeks, 12 weeks? I dunno. Long enough for a woman to confirm that she is pregnant. 6 weeks doesn't cut it.

And yes I've watched the "silent scream" video, just watched it again. Pretty compelling, but I stick to the notion that it is the Mom's choice. She can take it up with God, if there is one.

I just don't understand how both women and men can be so stupid. I hate condoms as much as the next guy, but they serve a purpose. Admittedly I dodged some bullets in my younger years because I was stupid too.