You wanna know why WSU is struggling???

[CougEd]

Ah the blame game. NFL coaches and executives always want to take credit and shift blame.

Again, with specifically Jamal A how should they have known. What was of record, what was known? If teh kid had been arrested like Calvin schmidke, yes, the staff should know and cut bait with the kid. And they did. Jeramy Stevens had problems that were documented. Johri Fogerson...what was in his past that would lead you to believe he would get in the trouble he did? Nothing.

So specifically to BArrington and Jamal A what was in their profile that Wulff or any other coach should have been aware?

 

[YakiCoug]

It's pretty well know that Barrington was a grade risk and Atofau was a character risk.

I recall reading quite a few articles on Atofau. Everyone, unless they were living under rocks, knew something about his past troubles.

 

[YakiCoug]

I quit reading when you said Buchanon was all on Leach.

Buchanon was an impact player since the day he stepped on the field. Even my UW buddy said his frosh yr he would go to the league if he added some size.

Further, you do realize that Leach doesn't coach the dB's, right?

And that the guy who supposedly developed Deonne just got fired, right?

The guy was a twig, but nice try at more Wulffian revisionism.

 

[YakiCoug]

Well Save...well you would think Mike Price would have been a little more forthright in selling Ryan Leaf. Beathard went on ESPN and said if he knew what he was getting he would have never drafted Ryan Leaf and that "his college coach was not forthcoming". Again, do I think Bellevue's coaches told Wulff or anyone else who recruited him that JA was a bad seed? Nope, I don't believe that in a minute.

There were good reasons why UCLA and a few others backed off. If they knew, Wulff knew or should have known, however much you wish to be a "PaulieAnna" about it.

 

[YakiCoug]

Why? Seriously, why defend Wulff? He was the worst football coach in school history. Why bother defending him? His recruiting has already been picked apart. 9-40 is where Wulff's recruiting got him. And why is "not starting" threads any different from "defending Wulff"?

Consider what you're dealing with here, dgibbons.

 

[wulffui]

But why was the walkon from Colfax playing.

Starting a single walk-on OL because the previous coach didn't leave personnel?

That's ridiculous. Surely he learned from that, and left many, man-... what's that, you say... three walk-on OL?

How does he not have his own "Bow Down to Willingham" book yet?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

But, as the writer in that article pointed out, they really did not improve when you look at the statistics within the statistics. They regressed, especially as the season went along. Again, why do you Wulff apologists always make excuses for him? Nothing is ever his fault.

Do you people even know how to read? Seriously? Didn't I say that Wulff needed to be fired because he didn't do a good enough job? What's ironic is that anyone who supports Leach would be stupid enough to call me a Wulff apologist. WSU fell apart in Leach's first year. We fell apart again last year and had one of our worst seasons in school history. 2 of the worst seasons in our school history have been under Leach. Maybe we should have fewer Leach apologists right about now.

For the comment about regressing, the vast majority of teams that are struggling regress as the year goes on. It happens because they go from playing OOC teams that include some easier games to tougher conference games. It happens because already thin rosters often get depleted as the years go on. It happened to just about every WSU coach in school history. This isn't an excuse for Wulff, it's a statement of reality. They played 9-4 UCF, 10-3 Memphis, 8-5 Houston, 9-4 Cincinnati, 8-5 ECU, 1-11 SMU and 2-10 Tulsa. They beat the bad teams on their schedule and lost to the good teams. What is unusual about that? WSU went 1-6 to finish 2014. Obviously, Leach and his staff needs to be fired immediately rather than give them more time?

 

[Coug1990]

Do you people even know how to read? Seriously? Didn't I say that Wulff needed to be fired because he didn't do a good enough job? What's ironic is that anyone who supports Leach would be stupid enough to call me a Wulff apologist. WSU fell apart in Leach's first year. We fell apart again last year and had one of our worst seasons in school history. 2 of the worst seasons in our school history have been under Leach. Maybe we should have fewer Leach apologists right about now.

For the comment about regressing, the vast majority of teams that are struggling regress as the year goes on. It happens because they go from playing OOC teams that include some easier games to tougher conference games. It happens because already thin rosters often get depleted as the years go on. It happened to just about every WSU coach in school history. This isn't an excuse for Wulff, it's a statement of reality. They played 9-4 UCF, 10-3 Memphis, 8-5 Houston, 9-4 Cincinnati, 8-5 ECU, 1-11 SMU and 2-10 Tulsa. They beat the bad teams on their schedule and lost to the good teams. What is unusual about that? WSU went 1-6 to finish 2014. Obviously, Leach and his staff needs to be fired immediately rather than give them more time?

I thought there was hope for you when I read your post in the other thread. But, back to this crap. First, you automatically took to Wulff's defense when he got fired. To paraphrase, "It was the desperate head coaches fault." Sure, it could not be because Wulff was not good, it was the head coach.

Sorry, if you think that Leach's first and third years are among the worst in school history, you really do not know Cougar football. Unfortunately, they are not close. What would lead you "a supposed Leach supporter" to make up something like that?

 

[Coug1990]

No, their recruiting strategy was totally different.

Sponge, only knowing a little information to make himself think he knows what is actually happening. So cute.

 

[Coug1990]

Wow...how many gamnes did

Funny...read an article in the Seattle Times dated 12/13 2013. You can google doba and too big for your britches as well and you will see that he things he change his recruiting. And by changing the play calling and taking out the big play, and thus forcing the team to go 80 yards on 8 plays, that is changing the offense.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying about Pete Carroll and Mike Leach getting rid of coaches that werent a good fit. What is funny, you don't have that same "understanding" when Wulff changed out Etheridge for Morton, or Nikekamp for Tormey, or Roberson for the UCLA Dline coach. Sounds like Wulff did exactly what Leach and Carroll did. Evaluated then after they had appropriate amount of time with the player.

Lesuma missed I believe all of fall camp with a back injury and missed his first game. Reed Lesuma had how much playing experience? I am not changing the narrative, You said they had four returning starteers. They had three. One had a back problem and played in 11 games. When you miss fall ball and the first game you aren't 100%. Never said Roxas didn't have experience. But why was the walkon from Colfax playing. Why did they start Pencer and the freshman? If your complaint is Reed Lesuma, then you and i will never be on the same page. They had a ton of injuries on the line. I have said IF Rowlands stuck around, if Lesuma was healthy, then in 2008 that line was certainly above what Leach inherited for that year. The problem is they weren't healthy. And teh problem is they didn't have any young kids coming up.

Ed making things up once again. I did not say that Wulff had four returning OL starters. Not sure where you got that. Ed, every player plays hurt. Not sure why you think a player that is injured cannot play. Regarding Reed, how much experience does any player have before they play? Not sure what exactly you are getting at here? How much playing time did Cole Madison have before last season? He was still very good last year. In fact, both Middleton and Sorenson had limited experience as well. Reed was a senior and his body showed. He was better, much better than the alternatives. Yet, he sat all season until the last two games. Yeah, the games he graded out the best of all the lineman. Nice try Ed, but you just do not know.

That you think that the line that Leach inherited from Wulff was better than what Wulff inherited from Doba is laughable. Leach himself says that he inherited six scholarship offensive lineman and only three belonged on scholarship. Even those three would not even start on this years line.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I thought there was hope for you when I read your post in the other thread. But, back to this crap. First, you automatically took to Wulff's defense when he got fired. To paraphrase, "It was the desperate head coaches fault." Sure, it could not be because Wulff was not good, it was the head coach.

Sorry, if you think that Leach's first and third years are among the worst in school history, you really do not know Cougar football. Unfortunately, they are not close. What would lead you "a supposed Leach supporter" to make up something like that?

Seriously, find one time after Wulff got fired where I said that I wanted to keep Paul Wulff as coach. You won't find it. He needed to be fired and I've said that for almost four years. Now, I did recently say that given the almost $10 million that we will pay Leach through the end of this season, it will be a waste of money if we don't make a bowl game this year and you could make the argument that we should have kept Wulff instead of hiring Leach, but that is an indictment of Leach, not praise for Wulff. If we are going to suck, why waste $1.5 million per year? Bear in mind that there is sarcasm in that comment. If anything, if we don't make a bowl game this year, you have to start wondering if there was a better choice in December 2011 than Leach or Wulff. Again, for the 10 millionth time, WULFF NEEDED TO GO IN 2011. Even if there are people here that don't have a clue about the situation when Wulff was here, he didn't win and that's all that matters in the long run.

As for being a "Leach supporter"......trust me, I was incredibly excited about getting him. I still want him to succeed. Not because I give a crap about him or his legacy, I want to be excited about WSU football again. The problem that we have right now is that too many people are caught up in the cult of personality of Leach and not willing to be honest about what's he's actually accomplished.

Here is a list of the worst finishes in the past 50 years of WSU football

1) 2009: 1-11
2) 1970: 1-10
3) 1969: 1-9
4) 2008: 2-11 (arguably the actual worst season though)
5) 2010: 2-10
6) 1974: 2-9
7) 1967: 2-8
8) 1999: 3-9
8) 2012: 3-9
8) 2014: 3-9

So, Leach has two seasons that are tied for 8th place as the worst finishes in our school's history. You can make excuses for Leach and blame Wulff for where we are, but the reality is that Leach has been a failure at WSU so far when it comes to the one thing that matters most....winning games. I have to admit that losing the New Mexico Bowl probably carries more weight for me than it should, but at the end of the day, his mismanagement of the end of that game, combined with the incompetence of our players, ended that season with a loss and the distinction of being our 10th straight season without a positive record. So, even though I want Leach to win because I want to schedule bowl games on a regular basis, 3-9 just doesn't cut it for me and he deserves criticism for being in charge when it happened. Just like Wulff needing to be fired because his teams occupy 3 of the top 5 spots on that list above.

 

[Coug95man2]

Cougman...you do get "leach" does not coach DB's. You also get that Leach wanted the guy who "didn't develop" Leach and was fired in Ball. Ball has more guys in the NFL than the guy who you are crediting in Breske, his position coach. And you saw the "development" of young DB's in 2014 that gave up worse numbers than they did in 2009.

As for who gets credit, you can develop a kid all you want, if he does not have talent enough to make it in the NFL. Why wasn't Bluhm, Hamel, Evans, and other not developed into NFL talent.

Yes, I fully believe if Ball chose to stay on the staff Buchanon would have developed just the same.

As Biggs loves to say you cant make chickens salad out of chicken sh^t. If Cooper, Long, Fullington, and the like clearly had some NFL potential. You think McGuire is a better line coach that Steve Morton. I would put Morton's ability to get players to the NFL with the top end line coaches in the country

The whole debate/argument has been about recruiting, ultimately. What can a coach do with what he's been given. Now you and Sponge want to muddy the water with specific position coaches? You guys can't stay on point for the life of you.

 

[Coug95man2]

Seriously, find one time after Wulff got fired where I said that I wanted to keep Paul Wulff as coach. You won't find it. He needed to be fired and I've said that for almost four years. Now, I did recently say that given the almost $10 million that we will pay Leach through the end of this season, it will be a waste of money if we don't make a bowl game this year and you could make the argument that we should have kept Wulff instead of hiring Leach, but that is an indictment of Leach, not praise for Wulff. If we are going to suck, why waste $1.5 million per year? Bear in mind that there is sarcasm in that comment. If anything, if we don't make a bowl game this year, you have to start wondering if there was a better choice in December 2011 than Leach or Wulff. Again, for the 10 millionth time, WULFF NEEDED TO GO IN 2011. Even if there are people here that don't have a clue about the situation when Wulff was here, he didn't win and that's all that matters in the long run.

As for being a "Leach supporter"......trust me, I was incredibly excited about getting him. I still want him to succeed. Not because I give a crap about him or his legacy, I want to be excited about WSU football again. The problem that we have right now is that too many people are caught up in the cult of personality of Leach and not willing to be honest about what's he's actually accomplished.

Here is a list of the worst finishes in the past 50 years of WSU football

1) 2009: 1-11
2) 1970: 1-10
3) 1969: 1-9
4) 2008: 2-11 (arguably the actual worst season though)
5) 2010: 2-10
6) 1974: 2-9
7) 1967: 2-8
8) 1999: 3-9
8) 2012: 3-9
8) 2014: 3-9

So, Leach has two seasons that are tied for 8th place as the worst finishes in our school's history. You can make excuses for Leach and blame Wulff for where we are, but the reality is that Leach has been a failure at WSU so far when it comes to the one thing that matters most....winning games. I have to admit that losing the New Mexico Bowl probably carries more weight for me than it should, but at the end of the day, his mismanagement of the end of that game, combined with the incompetence of our players, ended that season with a loss and the distinction of being our 10th straight season without a positive record. So, even though I want Leach to win because I want to schedule bowl games on a regular basis, 3-9 just doesn't cut it for me and he deserves criticism for being in charge when it happened. Just like Wulff needing to be fired because his teams occupy 3 of the top 5 spots on that list above.

Here's my only point with your statements… You are crystal balling this. "IF" he doesn't make a bowl, "IF" he doesn't make a winning record, etc. etc. Cripes, can't we give him the season to see, BEFORE we start stirring the pot to lynch him?

 

[Coug1990]

Seriously, find one time after Wulff got fired where I said that I wanted to keep Paul Wulff as coach. You won't find it. He needed to be fired and I've said that for almost four years. Now, I did recently say that given the almost $10 million that we will pay Leach through the end of this season, it will be a waste of money if we don't make a bowl game this year and you could make the argument that we should have kept Wulff instead of hiring Leach, but that is an indictment of Leach, not praise for Wulff. If we are going to suck, why waste $1.5 million per year? Bear in mind that there is sarcasm in that comment. If anything, if we don't make a bowl game this year, you have to start wondering if there was a better choice in December 2011 than Leach or Wulff. Again, for the 10 millionth time, WULFF NEEDED TO GO IN 2011. Even if there are people here that don't have a clue about the situation when Wulff was here, he didn't win and that's all that matters in the long run.

As for being a "Leach supporter"......trust me, I was incredibly excited about getting him. I still want him to succeed. Not because I give a crap about him or his legacy, I want to be excited about WSU football again. The problem that we have right now is that too many people are caught up in the cult of personality of Leach and not willing to be honest about what's he's actually accomplished.

Here is a list of the worst finishes in the past 50 years of WSU football

1) 2009: 1-11
2) 1970: 1-10
3) 1969: 1-9
4) 2008: 2-11 (arguably the actual worst season though)
5) 2010: 2-10
6) 1974: 2-9
7) 1967: 2-8
8) 1999: 3-9
8) 2012: 3-9
8) 2014: 3-9

So, Leach has two seasons that are tied for 8th place as the worst finishes in our school's history. You can make excuses for Leach and blame Wulff for where we are, but the reality is that Leach has been a failure at WSU so far when it comes to the one thing that matters most....winning games. I have to admit that losing the New Mexico Bowl probably carries more weight for me than it should, but at the end of the day, his mismanagement of the end of that game, combined with the incompetence of our players, ended that season with a loss and the distinction of being our 10th straight season without a positive record. So, even though I want Leach to win because I want to schedule bowl games on a regular basis, 3-9 just doesn't cut it for me and he deserves criticism for being in charge when it happened. Just like Wulff needing to be fired because his teams occupy 3 of the top 5 spots on that list above.

You don't get it Flat. Sure, you have said Wulff needed to go. You have said it many times. However, this is what you always do. For every one time you say Wulff needed to go, you write five great things excusing him. Not much is ever his fault. It is Doba's, Leach's, Taggert's, etc. The one thing in common is Wulff.

As for the record, the Wulff years on that list were as bad as the record. The offensive and defensive statistics were as bad as the records. Plus, not all 3-9 or even 3-8's are equal. For example, Mike Price in in 1998 went 3-8, but 0-8 in conference. I won't argue with you here, as we are picking nits.

Results based analysis misses so much. Ultimately, results based wins and losses are the biggest determination of each coach. But, only or mostly looking at that is missing so much on what is actually occurring in the program.

Honestly, I do not put you in the same category as a few other people on here. But, you really, really think more on emotion of feeling hurt and betrayed that WSU under Leach his not turned into some great team by the snap of a finger. Leach inherited a mess. A mess more than I had realized and I was the first off the Wulff bandwagon.

Think about this, in a position group that has five players, Leach inherited six scholarship offensive lineman. That was from Wulff, a former offensive lineman and offensive line coach.

 

[chinookpirate]

I look forward to Leach having a winning season while coaching at WSU

 

[BiggsCoug]

Do you people even know how to read? Seriously? Didn't I say that Wulff needed to be fired because he didn't do a good enough job? What's ironic is that anyone who supports Leach would be stupid enough to call me a Wulff apologist. WSU fell apart in Leach's first year. We fell apart again last year and had one of our worst seasons in school history. 2 of the worst seasons in our school history have been under Leach. Maybe we should have fewer Leach apologists right about now.

For the comment about regressing, the vast majority of teams that are struggling regress as the year goes on. It happens because they go from playing OOC teams that include some easier games to tougher conference games. It happens because already thin rosters often get depleted as the years go on. It happened to just about every WSU coach in school history. This isn't an excuse for Wulff, it's a statement of reality. They played 9-4 UCF, 10-3 Memphis, 8-5 Houston, 9-4 Cincinnati, 8-5 ECU, 1-11 SMU and 2-10 Tulsa. They beat the bad teams on their schedule and lost to the good teams. What is unusual about that? WSU went 1-6 to finish 2014. Obviously, Leach and his staff needs to be fired immediately rather than give them more time?

That title belongs to Coach T.

 

[BiggsCoug]

You don't get it Flat. Sure, you have said Wulff needed to go. You have said it many times. However, this is what you always do. For every one time you say Wulff needed to go, you write five great things excusing him. Not much is ever his fault. It is Doba's, Leach's, Taggert's, etc. The one thing in common is Wulff.

As for the record, the Wulff years on that list were as bad as the record. The offensive and defensive statistics were as bad as the records. Plus, not all 3-9 or even 3-8's are equal. For example, Mike Price in in 1998 went 3-8, but 0-8 in conference. I won't argue with you here, as we are picking nits.

Results based analysis misses so much. Ultimately, results based wins and losses are the biggest determination of each coach. But, only or mostly looking at that is missing so much on what is actually occurring in the program.

Honestly, I do not put you in the same category as a few other people on here. But, you really, really think more on emotion of feeling hurt and betrayed that WSU under Leach his not turned into some great team by the snap of a finger. Leach inherited a mess. A mess more than I had realized and I was the first off the Wulff bandwagon.

Think about this, in a position group that has five players, Leach inherited six scholarship offensive lineman. That was from Wulff, a former offensive lineman and offensive line coach.

You need at least 15 to make the car go. Simply amazing.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You don't get it Flat. Sure, you have said Wulff needed to go. You have said it many times. However, this is what you always do. For every one time you say Wulff needed to go, you write five great things excusing him. Not much is ever his fault. It is Doba's, Leach's, Taggert's, etc. The one thing in common is Wulff.

As for the record, the Wulff years on that list were as bad as the record. The offensive and defensive statistics were as bad as the records. Plus, not all 3-9 or even 3-8's are equal. For example, Mike Price in in 1998 went 3-8, but 0-8 in conference. I won't argue with you here, as we are picking nits.

Results based analysis misses so much. Ultimately, results based wins and losses are the biggest determination of each coach. But, only or mostly looking at that is missing so much on what is actually occurring in the program.

Honestly, I do not put you in the same category as a few other people on here. But, you really, really think more on emotion of feeling hurt and betrayed that WSU under Leach his not turned into some great team by the snap of a finger. Leach inherited a mess. A mess more than I had realized and I was the first off the Wulff bandwagon.

Think about this, in a position group that has five players, Leach inherited six scholarship offensive lineman. That was from Wulff, a former offensive lineman and offensive line coach.

The problem that I have with these conversations is your last sentence. You talk about excuses by Wulff and for Wulff but at the end, you finish up your statement with an excuse for Leach. It's year four. I don't expect a snap of the finger turnaround but I don't like seeing WSU lose games through lack of focus and execution. If we had finished 5-7 and didn't make a bowl game because we got outplayed and beat because of talent, I could live with that and not be that disappointed in Leach. Instead we end up with a terrible team that got decimated on our home field against our arch-rival because of stupidity. We have people making most of the same excuses that people like Ed use when they were defending Wulff. It would be laughable if it weren't so damned tragic.

 

[CougPatrol]

I have no idea why you guys continue the silly Wulff / Leach debate. Wulff was the worst coach in WSU, and modern day Pac-10/12 history. Nobody can dispute that. 66-3, 69-0, narrow home wins over SMU and Montana State. Hats off to Wulff for being a good Cougar linemen, but as a coach he stunk.

Leach hasn't done much to speak of in Pullman yet, but he's done a Hell of a lot more than Wulff did. More importantly, and this is where the argument stops, Leach's coaching resume includes a fantastic stint at a Power-5 conference school; including annual bowl game appearances and the occasional trip into the top-10 National rankings.

Leach may not work out in Pullman, but the decision to fire Wulff and hire Leach was a great move. It was one of the biggest, boldest splashes our football program has ever made in my lifetime. You make that move 100/100 times without batting an eye.

We're allowed to question and criticize Leach, and any coach, but nobody can objectively say that Wulff holds even a matchstick to Leach in the collegiate football world. It's not even close.

 

[Coug95man2]

I have no idea why you guys continue the silly Wulff / Leach debate. Wulff was the worst coach in WSU, and modern day Pac-10/12 history. Nobody can dispute that. 66-3, 69-0, narrow home wins over SMU and Montana State. Hats off to Wulff for being a good Cougar linemen, but as a coach he stunk.

Leach hasn't done much to speak of in Pullman yet, but he's done a Hell of a lot more than Wulff did. More importantly, and this is where the argument stops, Leach's coaching resume includes a fantastic stint at a Power-5 conference school; including annual bowl game appearances and the occasional trip into the top-10 National rankings.

Leach may not work out in Pullman, but the decision to fire Wulff and hire Leach was a great move. It was one of the biggest, boldest splashes our football has ever made in my lifetime. You make that move 100/100 times without batting an eye.

We're allowed to question and criticize Leach, and any coach, but nobody can objectively say that Wulff holds even a matchstick to Leach in the collegiate football world. It's not even close.

Completely agree. And getting into these very specific points (I'm just as guilty, and I've tried and tried to stay out of them) is moot. He sucked. As an analogy, it's like a 1 mile run. The guy in the lead starts to lap people. We are actually arguing that the guy in last place has "better form" or something. CML has improved the program in statistical, ranked ways. Don't like this point or that point? Fine. Look at whatever statistic you want. It's improved.

I think the point many have, and I think Flat is TRYING to go here, is without comparing to any other coach, CML has stumbled. Last year sucked so bad, it made my gut physically hurt. No one disputes that. The Leach people are saying, "Lets wait to see" and using points to bolster that. "Look, we've improved here and here and here!" Others are saying "Those aren't points, they're excuses" and diverting attention by using comparison of the previous regime.

Either way, we have CML for a minimum of 2 years… I'd say potentially 4... if his contract isn't rolled over again. THAT is a big "if". It's also FACT. So cut that in the middle and if nothing changes, we have CML for 3 years.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Looking a bit closer at those 12 players:

Abdullah, Pitoitua, and Collins finished in 2007 under Doba. They never played a down for Wulff.

Gibson probably would have been drafted higher if he left as a junior, never playing for Wulff. He's a Doba product too.

Bucannon and FUllington made their major improvements under Leach. Doesn't matter who recruited them, Leach made them NFL players.

Cooper never played a down for Wulff. He redshirted in 2011.

Mayle is all Leach

Tuel and Long had only their senior seasons under Leach. I'd argue that they had their best seasons under Leach too, but that can be debated - especially in Tuel's case.

Furney doesn't count toward anyone. His career was split between them, but really, as a kicker you've either got the leg or you don't....it's tough to give credit to an HC.

Final count:
Doba - 4
Wulff - 3 (Although really, I think Wilsson is the only one you can't argue for Leach...and honestly, I don't think Wulff did much either - Wilsson had talent, so Wulff resorted to the "throw it up " offense
Leach - 4
Nobody - 1

Again, not to defend Wulff, but how on earth do you conclude Tuel had his best season under Leach?

2010: 2780 yards, 18 TDs, 12 Ints, 133.3 rating
2012: 2087 yards, 8 TDs, 8 Ints, 119.5 rating

 

[Coug95man2]

Again, not to defend Wulff, but how on earth do you conclude Tuel had his best season under Leach?

2010: 2780 yards, 18 TDs, 12 Ints, 133.3 rating
2012: 2087 yards, 8 TDs, 8 Ints, 119.5 rating

Good numbers. I'd go with that. As far as I'm concerned, Wulff can take credit for Tuel, then.

 

[CougEd]

The whole debate/argument has been about recruiting, ultimately. What can a coach do with what he's been given. Now you and Sponge want to muddy the water with specific position coaches? You guys can't stay on point for the life of you.

95...which point are we not staying on? You say the debate has been about recruiting. Then you write its about what a coach can do with what they are given. Are you talking about given in terms of selling, or given with what they already had and what they are actually recruiting?

Of course if someone maintains players aren't getting coached up, you have to point the resume of the coaches who are being accused of being below average. Chris Ball who coached Buchanon developed David, Paymah, Trufant, Coleman. Then look what he did at Alabama and Pitt. So it gives context to what was happening from 2008-2012.

 

[wulffui]

Of course if someone maintains players aren't getting coached up, you have to point the resume of the coaches who are being accused of being below average. Chris Ball who coached Buchanon developed David, Paymah, Trufant, Coleman. Then look what he did at Alabama and Pitt. So it gives context to what was happening from 2008-2012.

So, when other people point to eight different resumes to make their point, and you keep pointing to the same guy, over and over, as your example- that doesn't make you consider anything?

 

[Fab5Coug]

Do you think Dennis Erickson is still the same coach now, as he was when he was winning NC's or top 5 in the Polls? What about that he was good enough to get two NFL head coaching gigs?

Morton's time had passed him by and it did not help that he could not walk. Hurt recruiting and showing technique. What surprised me was Ball. He was good his first go round at WSU. Maybe it was because he was spread too thin with the DC duties or he needed another defensive coach over him like he has at ASU. Either way or something else, his time under Wulff was decidedly underwhelming.

I think the problem for Ball was that he had Jody Sears, Travis Niekamp & Malik Roberson recruiting with him.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Again, with specifically Jamal A how should they have known. What was of record, what was known? If teh kid had been arrested like Calvin schmidke, yes, the staff should know and cut bait with the kid. And they did. Jeramy Stevens had problems that were documented. Johri Fogerson...what was in his past that would lead you to believe he would get in the trouble he did? Nothing.

So specifically to BArrington and Jamal A what was in their profile that Wulff or any other coach should have been aware?

I can't find anything on it now, but I recall Atofau had a couple red flags when he was being recruited.

I think he moved from CA to Bellevue because he was getting in some trouble down there.

And the pot bust was his 3rd run in with the law while in Pullman.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Do you people even know how to read? Seriously? Didn't I say that Wulff needed to be fired because he didn't do a good enough job? What's ironic is that anyone who supports Leach would be stupid enough to call me a Wulff apologist. WSU fell apart in Leach's first year. We fell apart again last year and had one of our worst seasons in school history. 2 of the worst seasons in our school history have been under Leach. Maybe we should have fewer Leach apologists right about now.

For the comment about regressing, the vast majority of teams that are struggling regress as the year goes on. It happens because they go from playing OOC teams that include some easier games to tougher conference games. It happens because already thin rosters often get depleted as the years go on. It happened to just about every WSU coach in school history. This isn't an excuse for Wulff, it's a statement of reality. They played 9-4 UCF, 10-3 Memphis, 8-5 Houston, 9-4 Cincinnati, 8-5 ECU, 1-11 SMU and 2-10 Tulsa. They beat the bad teams on their schedule and lost to the good teams. What is unusual about that? WSU went 1-6 to finish 2014. Obviously, Leach and his staff needs to be fired immediately rather than give them more time?

Maybe back off the hyperbole a bit.

 

[CougEd]

Ed making things up once again. I did not say that Wulff had four returning OL starters. Not sure where you got that. Ed, every player plays hurt. Not sure why you think a player that is injured cannot play. Regarding Reed, how much experience does any player have before they play? Not sure what exactly you are getting at here? How much playing time did Cole Madison have before last season? He was still very good last year. In fact, both Middleton and Sorenson had limited experience as well. Reed was a senior and his body showed. He was better, much better than the alternatives. Yet, he sat all season until the last two games. Yeah, the games he graded out the best of all the lineman. Nice try Ed, but you just do not know.

That you think that the line that Leach inherited from Wulff was better than what Wulff inherited from Doba is laughable. Leach himself says that he inherited six scholarship offensive lineman and only three belonged on scholarship. Even those three would not even start on this years line.

So how many olineman did Wulff inherit? Two? Again, read my posts. I said several times the line that Wulff inherited before the first game was better. The fact they had returning starters in 2008 should have been an anchor. Rowland left. And while Leach said he inherited 6 lineman, and three should have been scholie, it is funny how he started all Wulff lineman in 2012, and he couldn't replace those misfits with his JC players he brought in. And in 2013, the bowl year, how many starters up front were from th eWulff years? And he had a 7th round draft pick take off and go to Eastern.

So yes, on paper, the 2008 line was better. But the four starters were three. Lesuma had a back injury that caused him to miss the first game. And apparently one more. Was he the same player?

And who was around the following year.

I can't find anything on it now, but I recall Atofau had a couple red flags when he was being recruited.

I think he moved from CA to Bellevue because he was getting in some trouble down there.

And the pot bust was his 3rd run in with the law while in Pullman.

I haven't seen anything online. JA was from Rainier Beach area and he moved to Bellevue apparently. Not that is gospel but a client's family members attended Bellevue at that time and they don't recall him being in trouble, but maybe there was something that Wulffui or others can point to that has been documented. I would venture to say the court records are clear. Just out of curiosity what were his other two run ins with the law in Pullman.

 

[Coug95man2]

95...which point are we not staying on? You say the debate has been about recruiting. Then you write its about what a coach can do with what they are given. Are you talking about given in terms of selling, or given with what they already had and what they are actually recruiting?

Of course if someone maintains players aren't getting coached up, you have to point the resume of the coaches who are being accused of being below average. Chris Ball who coached Buchanon developed David, Paymah, Trufant, Coleman. Then look what he did at Alabama and Pitt. So it gives context to what was happening from 2008-2012.

Not going to fight with you or Sponge, Ed. Say whatever you will. Yes, position coaches have a significant impact on players. Good point.

 

[wulffui]

I can't find anything on it now, but I recall Atofau had a couple red flags when he was being recruited.

I think he moved from CA to Bellevue because he was getting in some trouble down there.

And the pot bust was his 3rd run in with the law while in Pullman.

Sadly enough, the best place to probably find this very particular kind of info... would probably be Dawgman- this sort of in the moment "WDWHA, but lookit why, and what a turd the Cougars got" is probably their most informative coverage; inexplicably, the recruiting guys are able to talk to coaches or other people they know, and figure these out.

 

[CougEd]

I think the problem for Ball was that he had Jody Sears, Travis Niekamp & Malik Roberson recruiting with him.

I don't disagree. Niekamp and Roberson were probably fired as much for their recruiting as their player development. The fact we lost LA for so many years was a huge problem.

 

[spongebob11]

Sponge, only knowing a little information to make himself think he knows what is actually happening. So cute.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how to put on football pads

 

[CougEd]

So, when other people point to eight different resumes to make their point, and you keep pointing to the same guy, over and over, as your example- that doesn't make you consider anything?

Well, when a poster points to player development and says the secondary didn't develop that is on the DB coach. Am I missing something? So when a poster claims the receivers got worse in 2009 over 2008, and that Chima didn't develop that is on the position coach. But the position coaches don't forget how to coach. For crying put loud, ASU's FS is a former walk-on at WSU and has been productive. So to really think the position coach who coached guys like Trufant and has success at ASU just all of a sudden forgot how to coach in 2008 and 2009?

Also, which eye other resumes are you talking about?

 

[spongebob11]

I have no idea why you guys continue the silly Wulff / Leach debate. Wulff was the worst coach in WSU, and modern day Pac-10/12 history. Nobody can dispute that. 66-3, 69-0, narrow home wins over SMU and Montana State. Hats off to Wulff for being a good Cougar linemen, but as a coach he stunk.

Leach hasn't done much to speak of in Pullman yet, but he's done a Hell of a lot more than Wulff did. More importantly, and this is where the argument stops, Leach's coaching resume includes a fantastic stint at a Power-5 conference school; including annual bowl game appearances and the occasional trip into the top-10 National rankings.

Leach may not work out in Pullman, but the decision to fire Wulff and hire Leach was a great move. It was one of the biggest, boldest splashes our football program has ever made in my lifetime. You make that move 100/100 times without batting an eye.

We're allowed to question and criticize Leach, and any coach, but nobody can objectively say that Wulff holds even a matchstick to Leach in the collegiate football world. It's not even close.

I agree. I have said that Wulff needed to be fired.

The problem is that you have posters who make ridiculous statements due to their hatred for Wulff that just aren't true ie Wulff ruined Gibson, Deone's development is all due to Leach etc.

 

[chinookpirate]

Interesting note Ed brings up.... our BEST offensive lineman was playing for Eastern last year after getting run off the roster from WSU's bowl team. That had to affect line effectiveness last year.

 

[CougEd]

I thought there was hope for you when I read your post in the other thread. But, back to this crap. First, you automatically took to Wulff's defense when he got fired. To paraphrase, "It was the desperate head coaches fault." Sure, it could not be because Wulff was not good, it was the head coach.

Sorry, if you think that Leach's first and third years are among the worst in school history, you really do not know Cougar football. Unfortunately, they are not close. What would lead you "a supposed Leach supporter" to make up something like that?

1990----There you go again. I like Flat find it almost comical that you blame 3-9 on Wulff, yet when someone makes the same claim about Doba in 2008-2010 you scoff. Yes, in Pullman there are three positions that need time to develop. Oline, Dline, and QB. Maybe that will change with Leach at the helm and he will be able to plug in QB's. But since I have been watching WSU how many first year Qb's have had a winning season?

Wulff had his warts. But that coach recruited more high end talent, talent that went to the next level than his predecessor. So when you tell practice patience, how is that any different than the message other gave in 2011 and before?

And when does Wulff's name not get mentioned? You know if Leach goes 5-7 next year, and if some huge donor says they are pulling the plug on their huge donations if Moos doesn't get rid of leach, and if Moos pulled the plug I would say three things. First, it would be a huge mistake. And second, the coach that inherits the team is inheriting a strong foundation. And third, if the following coach wins I would say they won with Leach's players.

 

[dgibbons]

Interesting note Ed brings up.... our BEST offensive lineman was playing for Eastern last year after getting run off the roster from WSU's bowl team. That had to affect line effectiveness last year.

The coaches wanted him to stay. He wanted to go to Eastern. But, nice try.

 

[dgibbons]

I think the problem for Ball was that he had Jody Sears, Travis Niekamp & Malik Roberson recruiting with him.

And Wulff, and Levenseller, and the OL coaches that didn't recruit, and that dolt that "coached" the TEs. I don't even remember who the RB coach was after Broussard left. Sturdy was a decent recruiter, at least when you compare him to the others on Wulff's staff.

 

[chinookpirate]

The coaches wanted him to stay. He wanted to go to Eastern. But, nice try.

Not true at all.

Nice try.

 

[dgibbons]

Says the guy who doesn't even know how to put on football pads

Says the guy that can't use a period.

What's next? Are you going to come back with "BURN" or tell me that my mother wears combat boots?