Gaza

[Loyal Coug1]

Israel is doing well at killing the Hamas rapist murdering bastards. Stay with it. US needs to just STFU and let them have at it with no complaints. Kill every f-ing one of them whether they surrender or not. Read about what we and the Brits did to Dresden in WW2. What is the difference?

Too bad if Palestinian civilians bite it. It's their G-D fault that Hamas took over in the first place. All these protesting US students should read their history books. And then STFU too.

December 15, 2023 Israel-Hamas war

The Israel Defense Forces says it mistakenly shot and killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza after misidentifying them as a threat. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it an "unbearable tragedy" but vowed to continue the effort to return all hostages.

www.cnn.com

Boils my F-ing blood.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Israel is doing well at killing the Hamas rapist murdering bastards. Stay with it. US needs to just STFU and let them have at it with no complaints. Kill every f-ing one of them whether they surrender or not. Read about what we and the Brits did to Dresden in WW2. What is the difference?

Too bad if Palestinian civilians bite it. It's their G-D fault that Hamas took over in the first place. All these protesting US students should read their history books. And then STFU too.

December 15, 2023 Israel-Hamas war

The Israel Defense Forces says it mistakenly shot and killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza after misidentifying them as a threat. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it an "unbearable tragedy" but vowed to continue the effort to return all hostages.

www.cnn.com

Boils my F-ing blood.

I have to disagree to some degree. While I support them going after Hamas, the manner in which the Israelis are attacking Gaza is pretty poor form. If the United States were doing this, it would be much methodical and carefully planned out and wouldn't leave millions of civilians homeless. As f#cked up as our war in Iraq was, we never killed or injured civilians and destroyed their homes to the level that Israel is. All Israel is doing right now is creating millions of anti-Isreali zealots. This does nothing to make their future world safer.

They have the right to strike at Hamas but we shouldn't be giving them the weapons to carry out this war the way that they are. If the United States was fighting a war this way, their would be widespread condemnation. As Russia was destroying Ukrainian cities a year and a half ago, the United States was calling it a war crime. There are way too many people in the Gaza strip, their leadership is too militant and anti-Israeli and something needs to be done there, but the way that Israel is handling it is only making enemies...not creating a better future or winning over allies.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I have to disagree to some degree. While I support them going after Hamas, the manner in which the Israelis are attacking Gaza is pretty poor form. If the United States were doing this, it would be much methodical and carefully planned out and wouldn't leave millions of civilians homeless. As f#cked up as our war in Iraq was, we never killed or injured civilians and destroyed their homes to the level that Israel is. All Israel is doing right now is creating millions of anti-Isreali zealots. This does nothing to make their future world safer.

They have the right to strike at Hamas but we shouldn't be giving them the weapons to carry out this war the way that they are. If the United States was fighting a war this way, their would be widespread condemnation. As Russia was destroying Ukrainian cities a year and a half ago, the United States was calling it a war crime. There are way too many people in the Gaza strip, their leadership is too militant and anti-Israeli and something needs to be done there, but the way that Israel is handling it is only making enemies...not creating a better future or winning over allies.

Points well taken. Just not really sure what else they can do with all these tunnels, etc. to contend with. Regardless, I hold to my opinion that the US needs to just stay the F out of it.

Semi-related, that newswoman Clarissa Ward is one brave gal. Pretty sure I've seen her report from Ukraine and I think Afghanistan and/or Iraq. Now she's in Gaza. I would not get within 1,000 miles of any of those places, but there she is.

 

[mikalalas]

I have to disagree to some degree. While I support them going after Hamas, the manner in which the Israelis are attacking Gaza is pretty poor form. If the United States were doing this, it would be much methodical and carefully planned out and wouldn't leave millions of civilians homeless. As f#cked up as our war in Iraq was, we never killed or injured civilians and destroyed their homes to the level that Israel is. All Israel is doing right now is creating millions of anti-Isreali zealots. This does nothing to make their future world safer.

They have the right to strike at Hamas but we shouldn't be giving them the weapons to carry out this war the way that they are. If the United States was fighting a war this way, their would be widespread condemnation. As Russia was destroying Ukrainian cities a year and a half ago, the United States was calling it a war crime. There are way too many people in the Gaza strip, their leadership is too militant and anti-Israeli and something needs to be done there, but the way that Israel is handling it is only making enemies...not creating a better future or winning over allies.

The HAMAS ARE USING PALENSTINIANS AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

ANY STRIKE ISRAEL MAKES AGAINST HAMAS IS GOING TO KILL PALENSTINIAN CIVILIANS AS COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Because the HAMAS Using the Palenstinians as Human Shields.

Even the USA would be killing innocent Palenstinian's, if they were to strike at Hamas because of Hamas using innocent civilians as Human Shields.

This is no different then CHARLIE using innocent Vietnamese as HUMAN SHIELDS, and USA RIGHTLY STRIKING AT the NORTH VIETNAM, CHARLIE, VC, because South Vietnam, UN, BEGGED USA to DEFEND South Vietnam from North Vietnam, and because of that, INNOCENT Vietnamese civilians died because Charlie used Vietnamese as HUMAN SHIELDS when USA striked at Charlie, VC.

THE ONLY WAY FOR ISRAEL TO NOT KILL INNOCENT PALENSTINIANS CIVILIANS IS TO JUST DO NOTHING AND LET HAMAS CONTINUE TO EXTERMINATE THEM THRU ROCKET ATTACKS, BOMBS, TERRORIST ATTACKS, ETC.

Also Israel has created EVACUATION PATH ZONES, and attempted to EVACUATE innocent Palenstinian civilians, BEFORE they attacked Hamas.

The innocent Palenstinian's chose not to evacuate, either because they didn't want to leave, an or they liked the idea of being used as Human Shields to try to protect Hamas from attack by Israel.

The Palenstinian civilians have brought this on themselves by refusing to evacuate, and by supporting Hamas, electing Hamas, letting Hamas overthrow the PLO, sabotaging the peace process, etc.

And while I feel sad, bad for the Palenstinian plight, Israel is NOT to be blamed and it's time for the eradication of the HAMAS.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Points well taken. Just not really sure what else they can do with all these tunnels, etc. to contend with. Regardless, I hold to my opinion that the US needs to just stay the F out of it.

Semi-related, that newswoman Clarissa Ward is one brave gal. Pretty sure I've seen her report from Ukraine and I think Afghanistan and/or Iraq. Now she's in Gaza. I would not get within 1,000 miles of any of those places, but there she is.

I agree that we need to refrain from getting too involved...but part of that is not being the one providing the weapons that they are using. I would much rather see us giving those weapons to Ukraine. Weakening Russia is more important than worrying about Gaza at least in my world view.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I agree that we need to refrain from getting too involved...but part of that is not being the one providing the weapons that they are using. I would much rather see us giving those weapons to Ukraine. Weakening Russia is more important than worrying about Gaza at least in my world view.

Agree there. Ukraine is just up against it, although they are fighting the good fight. F-ing Russia and Putin. He is evil, and they are an evil country. Why the F can't we locate him and kill him? I wish the pussies in Europe would say F it. and launch a full scale attack on those F-ers. No goddam reason why the US should have to shoulder much of the burden of helping Ukraine, when Europe is the one at risk. And I don't understand why Israel need our weapons anyway. They have been fighting wars for 50 years, don't they have enough of their own shit?

 

[AlwaysSpokanesFault]

"No goddam reason why the US should have to shoulder much of the burden of helping Ukraine, when Europe is the one at risk."

European NATO members won't even pay their "suggested" 2% of their GDPs for the funding of NATO, so I have a really hard time empathizing with anything that may happen there. For instance, Germany...facing declining birthrates and increasing 3rd world immigration (80% of Syrians who have lived in Germany for five years or more are unemployed)...just reneged on a promise made last year to finally meet their 2% obligation; it's mainly due to the costs of their generous social programs. So we (US taxpayers) will continue to pay a disproportionate contribution to maintain stability in Western Europe. It's all so tiring.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

"No goddam reason why the US should have to shoulder much of the burden of helping Ukraine, when Europe is the one at risk."

European NATO members won't even pay their "suggested" 2% of their GDPs for the funding of NATO, so I have a really hard time empathizing with anything that may happen there. For instance, Germany...facing declining birthrates and increasing 3rd world immigration (80% of Syrians who have lived in Germany for five years or more are unemployed)...just reneged on a promise made last year to finally meet their 2% obligation; it's mainly due to the costs of their generous social programs. So we (US taxpayers) will continue to pay a disproportionate contribution to maintain stability in Western Europe. It's all so tiring.

I agree that it's good for us to put more pressure on Europe to take care of their own business but I still stand by the idea that giving 5% of our defense spending to stifle Russia is some of the best money that we can spend. And I'd much rather spend money in Europe than in the Middle East.

 

[CougEd]

I agree that it's good for us to put more pressure on Europe to take care of their own business but I still stand by the idea that giving 5% of our defense spending to stifle Russia is some of the best money that we can spend. And I'd much rather spend money in Europe than in the Middle East.

Who has spent more on Ukraine the US or European allies the last two years ?

 

[mikalalas]

Agree there. Ukraine is just up against it, although they are fighting the good fight. F-ing Russia and Putin. He is evil, and they are an evil country. Why the F can't we locate him and kill him? I wish the pussies in Europe would say F it. and launch a full scale attack on those F-ers. No goddam reason why the US should have to shoulder much of the burden of helping Ukraine, when Europe is the one at risk. And I don't understand why Israel need our weapons anyway. They have been fighting wars for 50 years, don't they have enough of their own shit?

Isolationism, is how Hitler almost conquered the world.

In fact if Japan had NOT hit Pearl Harbor, USA would NOT have gotten involved in WW2 until too late, because of USA Isolationist viewpoints by Americans, and Hitler, Japan would have won the world.

Yes Europe should be the ones to help. Poland, 1,2 European countries are helping Ukraine with weapons, etc, but it's not enough

If USA does not help, then Russia, Putin will eventually win, if they don't give up, quit before then.

If Russia, Putin wins, it will embolden Russia, Putin, and there will be more problems, fires, conflict, wars, etc, to deal with later.

And Ukraine will SUFFER EVEN MORE HORRIBLY.

As to why Israel needs help, weapons. Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, Isil, Al Qaeda, terrorist, etc, want to EXTERMINATE Israel, an or are trying to do so, AND THEY ARE OUR OFFICIAL ALLY, and because without our help, weapons, Syria, Iran, etc, would attack, beat Israel.

Yes Israel NOW has their own weapons in a way, but technically their own weapons, are weapons that USA, UN, etc, have given them over the year.

Ever since the UN returned Israel to Jerusalem, their ancient homeland in 1948, they have both gotten weapons from USA, UN, and been attacked by Arabs, etc.

In 1967, they were attacked by Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Arabs, Persians, etc, and they would have exterminated Israel, if it had not been for the weapons that the USA, UN gave them.

Also as our Ally, Israel has VALIANTLY fought, terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, ISIL, ISIS, Terrorist, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saddam, Osama Bin Laden, etc, before even the 9-11 attack against the USA.

If it were not for Israel, we would be a hell of a lot worse off in our fight in the war on terrorism, etc.

ALL IT TAKES FOR EVIL TO PROSPER IS FOR GOOD MEN, WOMEN, PEOPLE, NATIONS LIKE THE USA, ETC, TO DO NOTHING TO STOP EVIL, ETC.

Like it or not the USA is the world's biggest super power, and biggest, best democracy, free country, that has the best moral views, that the UN, World expects to set the example, help out with money, weapons, etc, and expect, demand that the USA be the WORLD's POLICEMEN.

If USA does not help, does not act as policemen, and returns to pre WW2 ISOLATIONISM, then EVIL will prosper, people, nations will suffer, and another NAZI GERMANY, etc,(Probably Russia, China, Putin, North Korea, etc), will probably try and succeed in taking over the world, via war, etc.

That said there are times, some conflicts, etc, when the USA needs to act in moderation, and mind it's own business, and needs the wisdom to know when the USA needs to get involved, and when it needs to either not get involved, monitor the situation, etc.

 

[95coug]

Israel is doing well at killing the Hamas rapist murdering bastards. Stay with it. US needs to just STFU and let them have at it with no complaints. Kill every f-ing one of them whether they surrender or not. Read about what we and the Brits did to Dresden in WW2. What is the difference?

Too bad if Palestinian civilians bite it. It's their G-D fault that Hamas took over in the first place. All these protesting US students should read their history books. And then STFU too.

December 15, 2023 Israel-Hamas war

The Israel Defense Forces says it mistakenly shot and killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza after misidentifying them as a threat. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it an "unbearable tragedy" but vowed to continue the effort to return all hostages.

www.cnn.com

Boils my F-ing blood.

The difference is that in 1945, “precision bombing” meant that most of the time our planes could drop a bomb within a city block of where it was intended (assuming good weather, good visibility, and no AA fire). Today, we really could drop a bomb “into a pickle barrel.”

Additional difference is that (at least in theory, although with very broadly defined parameters) our bombing of Germany was against industrial and military targets. Israel isn’t even trying to claim the same, they’re openly bombing neighborhoods, churches, schools, hospitals…no restrictions. Our definition of military/industrial widened as the war went on, eventually including (especially in Japan) worker housing. Carl Spaatz (commander of US air forces in europe) was against targeting civilians, and preferred precision bombing of specific targets. He relented - somewhat - based on the reality that precision bombing wasn’t precision, and didn’t work. Area bombing became the norm after that. When he moved to the Pacific, he switched from Curtis LeMay’s fire bombing of city centers to more industrial areas and precision targets.

Reality though - if we had lost WWII, Spaatz and others involved with our bombing strategy would have been convicted as war criminals. And Spaatz tried not to bomb civilians. Further reality - if Israel wasn’t one of our allies, we’d be calling them war criminals too.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

The difference is that in 1945, “precision bombing” meant that most of the time our planes could drop a bomb within a city block of where it was intended (assuming good weather, good visibility, and no AA fire). Today, we really could drop a bomb “into a pickle barrel.”

Additional difference is that (at least in theory, although with very broadly defined parameters) our bombing of Germany was against industrial and military targets. Israel isn’t even trying to claim the same, they’re openly bombing neighborhoods, churches, schools, hospitals…no restrictions. Our definition of military/industrial widened as the war went on, eventually including (especially in Japan) worker housing. Carl Spaatz (commander of US air forces in europe) was against targeting civilians, and preferred precision bombing of specific targets. He relented - somewhat - based on the reality that precision bombing wasn’t precision, and didn’t work. Area bombing became the norm after that. When he moved to the Pacific, he switched from Curtis LeMay’s fire bombing of city centers to more industrial areas and precision targets.

Reality though - if we had lost WWII, Spaatz and others involved with our bombing strategy would have been convicted as war criminals. And Spaatz tried not to bomb civilians. Further reality - if Israel wasn’t one of our allies, we’d be calling them war criminals too.

Best read up on Dresden. We leveled the entire city. Not just military targets.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I have to disagree to some degree. While I support them going after Hamas, the manner in which the Israelis are attacking Gaza is pretty poor form. If the United States were doing this, it would be much methodical and carefully planned out and wouldn't leave millions of civilians homeless. As f#cked up as our war in Iraq was, we never killed or injured civilians and destroyed their homes to the level that Israel is. All Israel is doing right now is creating millions of anti-Isreali zealots. This does nothing to make their future world safer.

They have the right to strike at Hamas but we shouldn't be giving them the weapons to carry out this war the way that they are. If the United States was fighting a war this way, their would be widespread condemnation. As Russia was destroying Ukrainian cities a year and a half ago, the United States was calling it a war crime. There are way too many people in the Gaza strip, their leadership is too militant and anti-Israeli and something needs to be done there, but the way that Israel is handling it is only making enemies...not creating a better future or winning over allies.

Methodical like when we dropped nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yes. That was very methodical.

 

[95coug]

Best read up on Dresden. We leveled the entire city. Not just military targets.

I’m very familiar with Dresden, my thesis was on the air war in Europe. By that time, we were considering worker housing to be part of industry. But the primary target was still the rail yards.

The really sick thing done there is the first wave drive the citizens to the big city park for safety. The second wave bombed the park.

 

[UberCougars]

I have to disagree to some degree. While I support them going after Hamas, the manner in which the Israelis are attacking Gaza is pretty poor form. If the United States were doing this, it would be much methodical and carefully planned out and wouldn't leave millions of civilians homeless. As f#cked up as our war in Iraq was, we never killed or injured civilians and destroyed their homes to the level that Israel is. All Israel is doing right now is creating millions of anti-Isreali zealots. This does nothing to make their future world safer.

They have the right to strike at Hamas but we shouldn't be giving them the weapons to carry out this war the way that they are. If the United States was fighting a war this way, their would be widespread condemnation. As Russia was destroying Ukrainian cities a year and a half ago, the United States was calling it a war crime. There are way too many people in the Gaza strip, their leadership is too militant and anti-Israeli and something needs to be done there, but the way that Israel is handling it is only making enemies...not creating a better future or winning over allies.

Sure.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Methodical like when we dropped nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yes. That was very methodical.

A lot of people don't agree with the decision to drop those bombs. Feel free to note that we would not do that today....

 

[Stretch 74]

A lot of people don't agree with the decision to drop those bombs. Feel free to note that we would not do that today....

I recall reading about an essay or the like several years ago from a WSU professor who was actually Japanese. His argument was that due to the mentality of the Japanese people, dropping the two nukes on the country actually saved lives. He said that the alternative would have been to invade the country and that the Japs would have basically "fought to the last person" in a war that they couldn't win at that point.

Don't recall if his analysis took into account long term deaths from radiation exposure.

 

[Stretch 74]

The difference is that in 1945, “precision bombing” meant that most of the time our planes could drop a bomb within a city block of where it was intended (assuming good weather, good visibility, and no AA fire). Today, we really could drop a bomb “into a pickle barrel.”

Additional difference is that (at least in theory, although with very broadly defined parameters) our bombing of Germany was against industrial and military targets. Israel isn’t even trying to claim the same, they’re openly bombing neighborhoods, churches, schools, hospitals…no restrictions. Our definition of military/industrial widened as the war went on, eventually including (especially in Japan) worker housing. Carl Spaatz (commander of US air forces in europe) was against targeting civilians, and preferred precision bombing of specific targets. He relented - somewhat - based on the reality that precision bombing wasn’t precision, and didn’t work. Area bombing became the norm after that. When he moved to the Pacific, he switched from Curtis LeMay’s fire bombing of city centers to more industrial areas and precision targets.

Reality though - if we had lost WWII, Spaatz and others involved with our bombing strategy would have been convicted as war criminals. And Spaatz tried not to bomb civilians. Further reality - if Israel wasn’t one of our allies, we’d be calling them war criminals too.

Regarding your statement about Israel bombing without restrictions, I am not sure that is the case. It is widely reported that Hamas is using school, hospitals, community centers, apartment bldgs, etc as hiding places for communications and weapons. Assuming that is true, are the Israelis supposed to not attack those locations? And supposedly Hamas is forcing Gazans to stay in those places as human shields to keep the bombs and missiles away.

What is the answer to that situation? Certainly the loss of life is terrible, but what do you do? War is Hell, and we all wish that it didn't exist, but it is a sad fact of human life. I wish I had a good answer and had the ability to make it happen that there would never be any more war, but sadly that is not going to happen.

 

[UberCougars]

A lot of people don't agree with the decision to drop those bombs. Feel free to note that we would not do that today....

Irrelevant

 

[CougEd]

Israel is doing well at killing the Hamas rapist murdering bastards. Stay with it. US needs to just STFU and let them have at it with no complaints. Kill every f-ing one of them whether they surrender or not. Read about what we and the Brits did to Dresden in WW2. What is the difference?

Too bad if Palestinian civilians bite it. It's their G-D fault that Hamas took over in the first place. All these protesting US students should read their history books. And then STFU too.

December 15, 2023 Israel-Hamas war

The Israel Defense Forces says it mistakenly shot and killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza after misidentifying them as a threat. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it an "unbearable tragedy" but vowed to continue the effort to return all hostages.

www.cnn.com

Boils my F-ing blood.

Well that is one narrative. Post WwII we England and the US)made decisions that still have consequences today. I did look into my history books and geography books printed before 1945. I couldn’t find Israel on the map. I think if England and Germany decided to put Palestine in Pullman and made that region Palladian governed not sure you and I would say … “ok whatever is the best for the team”

Trust me when I say the Palestinians have screwed up at almost every turn post 1946. And the longer they dont have the ability to be human and govern themselves the more and more their behavior will mimics how they are treated .

What they haven’t been smart enough to do is use Ghandi’s strategy . That would have made the Israelis look like the bad actors . A question has to be asked separate from the Hamas situation … why are the israelis still building settlements in the west bank?

 

[UberCougars]

Because when you fvuck around, attack another country and lose, you find out.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

Because when you fvuck around, attack another country and lose, you find out.

Israel could possibly win this battle, but lose the overall war.

If the perception begins to grow that they are being overly punitive and killing indiscriminately they will galvanize and radicalize the Arab world. And that will make it even more costly for western democracies/allies to be as openly supportive.

They are NOT going to be able to eliminate Hamas, let alone hezbollah. Much like we didn't eliminate al quadah or isis completely or whatever the fv<k their latest name is. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[95coug]

Regarding your statement about Israel bombing without restrictions, I am not sure that is the case. It is widely reported that Hamas is using school, hospitals, community centers, apartment bldgs, etc as hiding places for communications and weapons. Assuming that is true, are the Israelis supposed to not attack those locations? And supposedly Hamas is forcing Gazans to stay in those places as human shields to keep the bombs and missiles away.

What is the answer to that situation? Certainly the loss of life is terrible, but what do you do? War is Hell, and we all wish that it didn't exist, but it is a sad fact of human life. I wish I had a good answer and had the ability to make it happen that there would never be any more war, but sadly that is not going to happen.

Boots on the ground, door to door. Just like we did in Iraq. Dropping bombs and artillery on the building because “we think a couple guys are hiding behind all those kids” is not cool.

 

[95coug]

A lot of people don't agree with the decision to drop those bombs. Feel free to note that we would not do that today....

After 4 years of war that had killed 450,000 Americans, and looking at an additional 2 years that might kill another million? And only weeks after giving up thousands to take tiny islands like Okinawa and Iwo Jima? Yes, we’d drop it. Twice. Even today. And we’d have widespread support for doing it.

I recall reading about an essay or the like several years ago from a WSU professor who was actually Japanese. His argument was that due to the mentality of the Japanese people, dropping the two nukes on the country actually saved lives. He said that the alternative would have been to invade the country and that the Japs would have basically "fought to the last person" in a war that they couldn't win at that point.

Don't recall if his analysis took into account long term deaths from radiation exposure.

This continues to be one of the debates. Some say Japan was on the verge of surrender anyway, but that’s not true. There were liberal elements that wanted to accept the Potsdam declaration, but the military leaders who actually ran the country wanted to fight on. They didn’t expect to win, they just wanted to make the invasion so bloody that we would give up. Probably would have worked too.

They knew where we were going to invade, and had fortified the southern islands with supplies, close to a million troops, and tens of thousands of kamikazes. Our first waves were likely to be decimated, and then it would have been house to house fighting through the whole country. A million deaths was a very conservative estimate. Invasion would have killed far more than the bombs did.

Also, A third bomb would have fallen near Tokyo, and we were gearing up to deliver it. rumors of that had reached Japan - probably not accidentally - and the ruling class didn’t want to be on the receiving end. They also didn’t want the soviets to invade, which became theoretically possible in the final days

 

[CougEd]

Agree there. Ukraine is just up against it, although they are fighting the good fight. F-ing Russia and Putin. He is evil, and they are an evil country. Why the F can't we locate him and kill him? I wish the pussies in Europe would say F it. and launch a full scale attack on those F-ers. No goddam reason why the US should have to shoulder much of the burden of helping Ukraine, when Europe is the one at risk. And I don't understand why Israel need our weapons anyway. They have been fighting wars for 50 years, don't they have enough of their own shit?

I can think of a reason or two....you think giving up Kiev is a good idea? WIth out additional resources it is estimated it will take Russia 15 years to get back to where it was before invading Ukraine. Do you believe a dictator like Putin stops there? If so, why? If he goes past Ukraine cause whose military is involved? Ours. I would prefer not to have to redo of Normandy. Money is replaceable...we don't get those lives back.

That is why the US should shoulder a decent part of the burden. Do we never learn from our history of the past?

 

[Cougini5591]

The difference is that in 1945, “precision bombing” meant that most of the time our planes could drop a bomb within a city block of where it was intended (assuming good weather, good visibility, and no AA fire). Today, we really could drop a bomb “into a pickle barrel.”

Additional difference is that (at least in theory, although with very broadly defined parameters) our bombing of Germany was against industrial and military targets. Israel isn’t even trying to claim the same, they’re openly bombing neighborhoods, churches, schools, hospitals…no restrictions. Our definition of military/industrial widened as the war went on, eventually including (especially in Japan) worker housing. Carl Spaatz (commander of US air forces in europe) was against targeting civilians, and preferred precision bombing of specific targets. He relented - somewhat - based on the reality that precision bombing wasn’t precision, and didn’t work. Area bombing became the norm after that. When he moved to the Pacific, he switched from Curtis LeMay’s fire bombing of city centers to more industrial areas and precision targets.

Reality though - if we had lost WWII, Spaatz and others involved with our bombing strategy would have been convicted as war criminals. And Spaatz tried not to bomb civilians. Further reality - if Israel wasn’t one of our allies, we’d be calling them war criminals too.

Openly bombing churches... schools... hospitals...?

Give me a break.

Buildings lose their titles and rights for respect/protection once they have anything to do with soldiers (especially terrorist soldiers)

Help clear people out. Do it as safely as possible. But I have no problem with how Israel is setting things straight.

Disgusts me when people ignore/forget just how evil it's been over there. Forever ever

 

[mikalalas]

Well that is one narrative. Post WwII we England and the US)made decisions that still have consequences today. I did look into my history books and geography books printed before 1945. I couldn’t find Israel on the map. I think if England and Germany decided to put Palestine in Pullman and made that region Palladian governed not sure you and I would say … “ok whatever is the best for the team”

Trust me when I say the Palestinians have screwed up at almost every turn post 1946. And the longer they dont have the ability to be human and govern themselves the more and more their behavior will mimics how they are treated .

What they haven’t been smart enough to do is use Ghandi’s strategy . That would have made the Israelis look like the bad actors . A question has to be asked separate from the Hamas situation … why are the israelis still building settlements in the west bank?

Apparently you don't know WORLD History going back 5000 years, and don't know biblical history that has been backed up by Plato, Socrates, Josephus.

JERUSALEM existed ABOUT 1700 years before the CRUSADES.

JERUSALEM, ISRAEL, IS THE ANCIENT HOMELAND of ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, JOSEPH, AND THEIR DESCENDENTS THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL FOR ABOUT 4700 YEARS, since the time of MOSES, Aaron, King David, etc

The Israeli's have been CONSTANTLY INVADED, CONQUERED by: Babylonians(Iraq) Persians, Assyrians(Syria), Romans, then SCATTERED to Russia, Europe, all over face of earth, then HOLOCAUSTED by Hitler, Germany, then RETURNED BACK TO JERUSALEM, AND THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND IN 1948, by the UN, NATO, USA, ETC.

Palestine, Palenstinian's, helped support the invaders, conquerors that drove Israel out of Jerusalem and their Ancient Homeland, and then proceeded to STEAL, SQUAT on Israel's land, cities, etc, like the SQUATER's they were, and then called Jerusalem, ISRAEL's ancient homeland PALESTINE where Persians, Arabs, Palentinians, took over ISRAEL's Capital, cities, land.

Learn TRUE history, and stop buying into the anti Jewish, anti Israel, Pro Palentinians, Pro Hamas BS propaganda.

 

[mikalalas]

Openly bombing churches... schools... hospitals...?

Give me a break.

Buildings lose their titles and rights for respect/protection once they have anything to do with soldiers (especially terrorist soldiers)

Help clear people out. Do it as safely as possible. But I have no problem with how Israel is setting things straight.

Disgusts me when people ignore/forget just how evil it's been over there. Forever ever

Also Israel has created EVACUATION ZONE PATHS, AND TRIED TO EVACUATE THE PALENSTINIANS, AND EVEN HAD TEMPORARY CEASE FIRES THAT ISRAEL HONORED TO HELP THE PALENSTINIANS ESCAPE, THAT THE HAMAS, AND PALENSTINIAN TERRORIST HAVE NOT HONORED AND KEPT ON ATTACKING ISRAEL.

ALSO THERE ARE PALENSTINIANS THAT SERVE IN ISRAEL'S PARLIAMENT GOVERNMENT.

 

[UberCougars]

Israel could possibly win this battle, but lose the overall war.

If the perception begins to grow that they are being overly punitive and killing indiscriminately they will galvanize and radicalize the Arab world. And that will make it even more costly for western democracies/allies to be as openly supportive.

They are NOT going to be able to eliminate Hamas, let alone hezbollah. Much like we didn't eliminate al quadah or isis completely or whatever the fv<k their latest name is. That's all I have to say about that.

from the River to the Sea??

Isreal isn’t going to lose this war.

Zero chance.

 

[mikalalas]

Israel could possibly win this battle, but lose the overall war.

If the perception begins to grow that they are being overly punitive and killing indiscriminately they will galvanize and radicalize the Arab world. And that will make it even more costly for western democracies/allies to be as openly supportive.

They are NOT going to be able to eliminate Hamas, let alone hezbollah. Much like we didn't eliminate al quadah or isis completely or whatever the fv<k their latest name is. That's all I have to say about that.

Israel is a hell lot more determined, etc, then our CURRENT USA, USA MILITIARY LEADERSHIP, etc.

Our country, liberals, socialist, USA leadership, MILITIARY leadership is PRETTY SOFT, INCOMPETENT compared to Ukraine, Israel.

Israel is TOUGH, BATTLE HARDENED, COMPETENT, EFFECTIVE, and have been so for thousands of years, and have survived invasions, getting conquered, getting Holocausted by Nazi Germany, KICKED ASS against Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, in 1967, when ALL or MOST of the Middle Eastern Persian, Arab Nations attacked, tried to exterminate Israel.

Israel has been a Hell of a lot more effective against Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Isil, Isis, etc, BECAUSE they are TOUGHER, MORE IRON FISTED, MORE RUTHLESS, etc, then we are.

Israel doesn't tolerate SHIT. If you FCK with, throw shit at Israel, they will FCK you back, over and throw your Shit into your face, and grind your face into the Shit, and FCKIN , KILL, DESTROY NOT ONLY YOU, BUT YOUR WHOLE ARMY, ALL YOUR WEAPONS, YOUR COUNTRY, ETC, kind of like what Sherman did to the South in the Civil War.

And that mindset goes back to when God told Saul in the Old testament to make ultimate total complete war, and exterminate the enemies that attacked Israel, and not only that, but to destroy all their animals, treasure, EVERYTHING, as a DETERRENT to NEVER ATTACK ISRAEL AGAIN, because either they are all dead, and thus can't attack Israel, or if they survive, they never attack Israel again.

Israel doesn't FCK around, fight fair, nice, with 1 hand tied behind their back, in a POLITICALLY CORRECT way.

If you FCK with, attack Israel, Israel will eventually FCK you back, throw shit back at you, CRUSH, DESTROY YOU, etc, so that you NEVER EVER attack Israel again.

Also Israel has GOD on their side, and has been that way for thousands of years.

Last thing a person wants to do is to mess around with GOD an or HIS people, Israel.

If Hamas keeps their crap up, eventually Israel will EXTERMINATE, CRUSH, DESTROY, WIPE HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AL QAEDA, ISIS, AND ANYBODY ELSE THAT WANTS TO TRY TO FCK ISRAEL, WIPE THEM FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Don't believe that, just ask JORDAN, etc. They would be the first to tell you "Don't FCK with Israel, they'll FCK you back hardcore bro"

 

[95coug]

Openly bombing churches... schools... hospitals...?

Give me a break.

Buildings lose their titles and rights for respect/protection once they have anything to do with soldiers (especially terrorist soldiers)

Help clear people out. Do it as safely as possible. But I have no problem with how Israel is setting things straight.

Disgusts me when people ignore/forget just how evil it's been over there. Forever ever

Disgusts me when people ignore/forget how the evil has gone both ways over there. Forever ever

 

[CougEd]

Disgusts me when people ignore/forget how the evil has gone both ways over there. Forever ever

Reports have it Benjamin N. was so focused on the West Bank he placated Hamas the last 8 years. In September his government ok'ed millions of dollars from Qater to Hamas, they had known about the Hamas plans for a year now. Every detail.

Also, it doesn't take 8 hours to get the military onvolved. With cell phones hard to belief the Israel government didn't know there was a problem within 10 minutes.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

After 4 years of war that had killed 450,000 Americans, and looking at an additional 2 years that might kill another million? And only weeks after giving up thousands to take tiny islands like Okinawa and Iwo Jima? Yes, we’d drop it. Twice. Even today. And we’d have widespread support for doing it.




This continues to be one of the debates. Some say Japan was on the verge of surrender anyway, but that’s not true. There were liberal elements that wanted to accept the Potsdam declaration, but the military leaders who actually ran the country wanted to fight on. They didn’t expect to win, they just wanted to make the invasion so bloody that we would give up. Probably would have worked too.

They knew where we were going to invade, and had fortified the southern islands with supplies, close to a million troops, and tens of thousands of kamikazes. Our first waves were likely to be decimated, and then it would have been house to house fighting through the whole country. A million deaths was a very conservative estimate. Invasion would have killed far more than the bombs did.

Also, A third bomb would have fallen near Tokyo, and we were gearing up to deliver it. rumors of that had reached Japan - probably not accidentally - and the ruling class didn’t want to be on the receiving end. They also didn’t want the soviets to invade, which became theoretically possible in the final days

We had a 3rd bomb? I did not know that. Just did some reading - apparently one was in production but not ready?

 

[Observer11]

Neither Gaza nor Ukraine is our fight

Our resources should be spent defending our own borders from invasion

Except there’s no money to the bloodthirsty military-industrial complex in that.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Neither Gaza nor Ukraine is our fight

Our resources should be spent defending our own borders from invasion

Except there’s no money to the bloodthirsty military-industrial complex in that.

Our geographic location provides a natural defense from any realistic combat threats. Are you saying that we should dramatically reduce defense spending? You'll find that nobody with any authority supports that in any meaningful way.

Even as unstable as things are today, the alliances we have and the force projection capabilities of the United States military has led to far more stability than we would have otherwise seen.

If we started to abandon our allies, you would see countries like Russia and China start crushing their weaker neighbors and we would be in World War III faster than you can say "Isolationist policies are stupid and moronic".

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I’m very familiar with Dresden, my thesis was on the air war in Europe. By that time, we were considering worker housing to be part of industry. But the primary target was still the rail yards.

The really sick thing done there is the first wave drive the citizens to the big city park for safety. The second wave bombed the park.

I'll defer to your knowledge, but what did the park have to do with the railyards?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Our geographic location provides a natural defense from any realistic combat threats. Are you saying that we should dramatically reduce defense spending? You'll find that nobody with any authority supports that in any meaningful way.

Even as unstable as things are today, the alliances we have and the force projection capabilities of the United States military has led to far more stability than we would have otherwise seen.

If we started to abandon our allies, you would see countries like Russia and China start crushing their weaker neighbors and we would be in World War III faster than you can say "Isolationist policies are stupid and moronic".

What annoys the F out of me is China. We buy all their shit, I'm pretty sure we still have a trade deficit with them. How about America sez F you we are buying nothing from you. That'll F them up bigtime.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

What annoys the F out of me is China. We buy all their shit, I'm pretty sure we still have a trade deficit with them. How about America sez F you we are buying nothing from you. That'll F them up bigtime.

I'd love to see us do that...but America is addicted to the cheap products that China provides us.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I'd love to see us do that...but America is addicted to the cheap products that China provides us.

Because we are F-ed as a country. I'm sure some of the very few things that I buy are from China too, but I buy very few things. Yep just looked at my tennis shoe label. Made in China. I also refuse to buy anything through Amazon. But I know everybody else does.

 

[95coug]

I'll defer to your knowledge, but what did the park have to do with the railyards?

The rail yards were the supposed target, although our area bombing strategy meant we were dropping ordnance in the vicinity of the yards and hoping we hit it. (The details of the bomb loads make that target somewhat dubious).
Once the neighborhoods caught fire, the citizens fled to the park.
The bombing of the park could have been sort of an accident. The pathfinder planes ahead of the attacks dropped flares to mark the target areas, and when they found smoke and flames pretty widespread in the primary target area, they called an audible. They dropped their flares wider and deeper in the city, expanding the target area. The park was in that area.

I don’t really believe at that point in the war that anyone was trying too hard to avoid bombing the fleeing citizens, except that there was little strategic value to dropping on the park. That’s a waste of bombs that could be used to burn out houses.

Some of the same people were responsible for the A-bomb targeting, and the only effort made to minimize civilian casualties with those was the mandate that the cities targeted had to have military infrastructure. They did, but the aiming points were the city centers, well away from most of the military facilities. In Hiroshima, most of the military areas sustained relatively light damage. I think there was an army transport depot that was destroyed, but the docks, storage and fuel yards were basically untouched. The city center - including schools and hospitals - was erased. The aiming point in Nagasaki (which wasn’t the primary target that day - it got bombed because it was cloudy over Kokura) was also in the city center, but due to clouds and mechanical problems the bomb was off target by nearly 2 miles. Somewhat poetically, it exploded over a Mitsubishi plant that built torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor. There was more military damage in Nagasaki…because we missed what we were aiming at.

Truman technically hadn’t authorized the Nagasaki bombing, although the language of the orders was so vague it was easy to argue he had. But after he found out it was dropped he ordered that no more be dropped without his specific permission. Gen. Groves had been pushing his people to get another one ready as quickly as possible, he couldn’t wait to use them. By 1947, he had a list of 60 Soviet cities he wanted to strike too, and he felt we should shoot first. A 3rd bomb would have been ready by August 19, and 7 more by the end of November. Truman was right on the edge of authorizing another strike when Hirohito finally decided to surrender. If the attempted coup by army & navy officers had been successful, we probably would have dropped one outside Tokyo within a matter of days.