We need a RB
- Thread starter kougkurt
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I didn’t know you could enter the portal without stepping foot on campus?! This college FA is crazy!
Again, with the demand for respect.
How about this: I respect your decision but not you because you cant be held to your commitment?
Lots going on with the NCAA and Tennessee right now that might prompt a change of heart.
Commitment goes both ways . And because schools don’t live by their commitments not sure why the kids should .
Is this your long lasting belief that WSU was unethical in not allowing both Pauls - Graham & Wulff coach their 5th and final years of their contracts?
This is a fair statement. A lot of schools lie to recruits. Blatantly. Should the kid be expected to be more honorable than the school? Interesting debate topic.
I have no issues with kids showing the same loyalty to schools as coaches do. Not much.
Coaches leave at any time for better opportunities. I think it’s only fair kids can do the same.
There is no shortage of kids and coaches wanting to be at P5 schools. If someone doesn’t want to be there, why get in their way? Why limit their opportunity? Let them go freely. If it were a science major that wanted to leave for an ivy league school to better their education, should they have to sit out a year? No. Student is first in the name student athlete for a reason.
Creates a revolving door of kids on the team? Oh well. The HC makes millions. I dont feel sorry for them one bit if they have to work harder or more. It isnt a work/life balance job. If they dont like it, Walmart is always looking for people.
Explain.
People still arguing about 2002 season and invoking Price and Walden from even earlier.
You believed it was unethical for WSU to not allow them to coach a 5th yr.
Or do you think it is unethical for coaches to leave for greener pastures?
Leach lived in Pullman about the same number of years as Jay Inslee has lived in the city of Seattle
Or is it unethical for WSU to lure other staffs to come to Pullman? Stealing the EWU coach and staff in 2007 was clearly wrong. Cant justify that and later complain when Virginia stole Tony Bennett.
This is like an out of body experience. I don't even remember who you are and you remember FRAGMENTS of what I have said in the past. Also, you do get with time things do "change". So even if you got my opinions correct back in the day regarding Wulff and Graham, which you didn't, I may have an opinion 180 to what it is now.
Back in the day I would go to the Down Under on Thursday night, have a bunch of dime beers and get a pretty good buzz on. Now I go out every Thursday (before Covid) with five of my best friends and I will have a Vodka soda, and on a really big night I will have two. Back in the day I only had to think of me. Now I have my wife and kids to think about. So what I said in the 90's and 2000's may not be the same.
But since you want to go in the Mr Peabody Wayback machine, the issue was with Blake Pengelly and people complaining that Graham "ran" him. My discussion is if you believed it was immoral for a coach to run a kid (IE doing it the right way) then it should be equally immoral and outraged when the coach does not get to coach the 5th year. In other words, being run.
I also objected to how Graham was treated. IE people complained he wanted to to it his way, the Oklahoma State way. People complained because he dressed classy and some wanted him to dress down to the job. You know, stuff that does not matter. But I was fine with Graham getting let go as I was fine with Blake getting his scholie pulled.
I am not quite sure how many times I have to say this, but I am hopeful it some day will sink in. I did not want Paul Wulff to be hired. I wanted Price to be hired. I thought it would take someone with Price's history and plan to rebuild a decimated roster. I said when Doba was let go it would take five years to get to a winning season, regardless of who coached the team. When Wulff was hired I said I need to give him a chance. After year three if we could get an established coach like Leach, fire Wulff. 2011 felt unsatisfying because of Tuels injury....and hear me loud and clear.....if WSU was going to hire another assistant coach from another program I preferred Wulff sticking around seeing his staff and recruiting (save the 2011 class) was getting better for year five. WSU went out and hired a coach with a reputation, and I haven't looked back since.
As I have said 100 times, not sure why Leach was not hired in 2010. Ask Biggs we talked about it often. I would have fired Wulff on the spot. after 2010 I would have fired my brother to get a top 15 coach in Leach after 2010.
And regards to Leach, when we decided to pay him, we entered big boy football. I may squirm a little when say Leach or Rolo make an evaluation mistake and run the kid, I also look at all the money involved and no coach should be hamstrung by my moral code especially when the NCAA has deemed that coded dated.
I never had an issue withe Virginia hiring Tony. Never. What I have said numerous times is I struggle with the personnel misses and the condition he left the program in vs the shape he inherited it. And I have said this before, I wish he left earlier. I wish there was really an offer from LSU and Marquette, and instead of him leveraging the fake offers he just left because he was chasing the next job. So I am not sure why you think I have a problem Virginia and their hiring practices.
Man I hope we are still healthy in 2040 so we can talk about what CougEd said in 2002. Outside of your hard-on for Walden and Wulff, I have no idea what you have said in the past.
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Many have been the times when I wished that I could command the Mr. Peabody Wayback Machine. There are probably a dozen or so events in my life for which I'd love to have a do-over, and the Wayback Machine is probably the only way I'll ever get those do-overs.
Ed, I'm pretty much on board with most of what you said, though I thought Graham lacked some key attributes of a HC and I was not happy with either his hire or his performance. And while I have no heartburn with how Virginia behaved, I still have some residual heartburn with how Tony handled it. I was never sure how much of that was immaturity and how much was hypocrisy. I still come down a little on the side of the latter. As for the Wulff hire, we've all beaten that thing to death. I have no more energy to devote to the topic. Finally, while I agree that it would have probably been smart to re-hire Mike Price, that bridge had been well and truly nuked. It just wasn't going to happen. My favorite "what if" involves Ravelling staying. My second favorite involves Price staying. Neither one benefitted from their moves, as it worked out. Probably both would have retired as saints in Pullman.
And Kurt, we still need a RB. Please see what you can do about that Tennessee transfer....
My position with Graham never was about his hire or his performance . My issue was people getting offended because he “ran” Blake and yet don’t have the same moral issues with running a coach.
Like I said the other issue wasn’t about his performance but the criticism he received for how he dressed and how he wanted to do it the OSU way . That would be like criticizing Leach for wanting to run the Air Raid . That is why he was hired .
Seems like a pretty big difference between running a kid and having him lose a scholarship and firing a coach and paying him to do something else until his contract runs out. Firing a coach an not paying him for services already rendered like Tech did to Leach is crazy unethical. But paying Wulff to pick his nose in his car on Saturdays (rather than the Martin Stadium sideline) shouldn't bother anyone.
Graham was hired to coach a team , not just to get paid . Sorry you don’t understand the term commitment .
But like I said , we entered big boy sports . So it is ok to run a kid and pretend like the scholie was a four year commitment . As it is ok for a coach to get paid for picking his nose .
Leach and every coach these days run kids who they missed on in the evaluation process .
On a somewhat related tangent, Drill Instructors also run kids. A few wash out. Most incorporate it in their development. While I might quibble a bit with the exact entrance of Wazzu into "big boy" sports, there is no doubt that we did it, and there is also no doubt that certain things that would not pass the ivory tower sniff test are part and parcel with being in big boy college sports. That is a decision that was made. You might debate specific situations, and talk about just how far to go in a specific situation, but the reality is that what I'll loosely call "the rules" are different at the big boy level. Is it a "loss of innocence"? I guess that is one way in which you could look at. I'd suggest that it is also simply a matter of recognizing reality. Coaches get no forgiveness for losses, beyond a short honeymoon period. Kids likewise do not get forgiveness for being unable to help produce wins, whether due to a deficiency in talent, work ethic, attitude or something else. If that is abhorrent, then we should drop back to at least BCS level.
Interesting how you equate an employment contract while clauses laying out the terms for each side to back out to one sided scholarship agreements.
You and I are in full agreement. When WSU hired Leach they paid him big boy money. And thus, he should follow the same rules as everyone else in the NCAA. He should not be hamstrung by the notion "doing it the right way". Coaches get fired for not winning enough, not their academic record. I am not changing that dynamic. So we are in a place now that we weren't in 2002. I fully acknowledge and accept it.
Again, contracts are written to take morality out of the equation. Both parties go into things knowing either the coach gets hired away or will be fired before the contract expires. Terms of the separation are agreed to before the contract is ever signed.
Pulling a kids scholarship, OTOH, especially 20 or so years ago is a crappy thing to do. Kid loses the only compensation they can legally receive, odds are they don't get picked up by someone else, and if they do the coaches could block a transfer that could hurt them in any way shape or form. Then the kid gets to sit out a year.
I don't remember Leach running off a bunch of kids unless they violated his three rules. Or didn't make the grades. Plenty of kids transferred out, but I haven't heard about any kid who didn't graduate getting run off.
Well again the discussion was about morality . Legally, the university is abiding by the “contract” by honoring it for one year .
We need a freshman. The top of the depth chart is fine for 2021.
The only example I have of a school not honoring a contract for all years is Leach with Texas Tech. We honored all of our contractual obligations to both Paul's.
Student athletes are a whole nother can of worms and should have their scholarships honored because they have no options. If David Bucannon isn't going to see the field for four years but works hard, stays out of trouble, and gets it done in the class room... you keep him on scholarship. It's wrong not to do so.
Exactly this. For all the hand wringing about "needing a RB" in this class, we have Borghi and McIntosh (by all reports) both coming back for the upcoming season. Behind them? Not much depth that has shown anything so far.
Borghi did miss most the past quasi-season due to injury. McIntosh did very well in his place. But it does underscore the concern for new blood.....in the future.
With the run and shoot being a one back offense and having two very capable players to fill that role, the need isn't as dire as some suggest. Of course that changes with any injury and/or attrition (like McIntosh deciding to enter the draft, after all).
Running back is the kind of position that a player could conceivably step in and play immediately. So, even if we didn't bring in a player for this upcoming season, a talented one could be added for the following year at any time and we would end up just fine.
You can't predict injuries, and maybe even attrition (to a large degree). It's a bit of a dice roll with Borghi and McIntosh for this season. But, if both are present (like it sure seems they will be) and they do stay healthy, we will be just fine. For this year.
But we had damn well better find a player or two for the future, in the following recruiting/transfer class. At that point, a transfer candidate would make some more sense. It doesn't really at this point, unless it was a frosh/soph transfer.
I think Brandon Golden, Duckett, and two others in 2012 would say they were told their services we no longer wanted. And because Leach kept such a tight control no one knows who else was run. I would suspect Sale for example would be in the sand pit the rest of his career.
And I am not blaming or dissing on Leach. When we went out and got him we entered big boy football. And no coach can manage a roster with kids who they misevaluated and cant play at this level.
We don't just lack experience beyond the guys we assume will depart, the only touch Bazile received was a fumbled hand off in the redzone. I realize he was probably a good practice player, but giving Markoff 10 touches seemed excessive considering the need to develop depth and Jouvensly does figure into our long term plans.
Disagree. You cannot have dead weight on the roster. If the kid isn't going to move up the depth chart, you have to move him on. Whether he is told his deal won't be renewed or he graduates early and leaves, doesn't matter. But you can't have guys taking up money that aren't going to play for you. You need to get that money back and move on. You have to produce. You cannot just go to class and never contribute to anything and expect to get your scholarship for 5 years. That's a recipe for disaster. I've seen WSU have half their roster filled with guys that are never gonna play. It crushes your program.
Eds insinuating players were run when they weren't. Pushing a kid to graduate early to clear a roster spot isn't running a kid. Letting them know they have no shot at seeing the field because you view them as too far down the depth chart isn't running a kid.
Having a serious conditioning program and not a summer camp atmosphere sorts out a lot of the roster. The demands of high level college football are such that it's not worth sticking for most if you aren't going to play. Kendrick Catis wouldn't have seen the field for us, but went on to a nice career at Murray St. This doesn't mean he got run. There are dozens of players who went through the program during the Leach years who never saw meaningful snaps yet still got their degrees. Leads me to believe we aren't running kids.
You have to get your class enrolled early that spring semester or summer. If the kids are there early and finish 12 credits that spring, maybe another 6 that summer, then 12 more that fall ~ they are gonna graduate fast. They might go into their redshirt frosh year with 48 credits done. If you are able to get kids on a fast track with their degree, you won't have to worry about making tough decisions to move kids on. They'll have 2 years to play and a bachelors degree in their pocket. They can move on, the school can move on.
Doesn't change my point. I understand fully that experience and development can count heavily. And we don't have it beyond our top two RBs.
But there are a few positions where players can step right in and play, regardless of experience. Not ALL players and not all the time, of course. But, especially at RB, WR and DB, players can come in and often play well right away. It's not so rare in college FB as to be an anomaly.
I'd much prefer to have someone already in place, who has "been there/done that, with a bit of success", to take over when Borghi and McIntosh leave (presumably after this season). I just think it's possible to still end up with a good situation if that guy isn't brought in during this immediate cycle. An experienced, solid transfer, or an exceptional frosh, could come in after this season and fill the bill for the next season. Maybe Bazille gets more touches and shows some potential?
Obviously the staff hasn't been able to get the right guy to come in up to this point. What really good upperclass transfer wants to come in and sit behind Borghi/McIntosh? So it would best be served to have a young guy come in, if it's going to be this cycle. But we haven't been able to get one. Who knows? Maybe someone will still fall into our lap?
Makes the next recruiting cycle critical. It's a risk and a gamble. I would bet we try and bring in at least a couple of guys during that cycle. A HS guy, and a portal and/or JC guy, too?
Ummm....I don't think I am insinuating it. Mike Leach has acknowledged it. Right around the Wilson incident, someone in the know told me the blood letting had just begun. Expect four players to leave next week. Sure enough, Waseem, Tyrone Duckett, Matt Simons and Brandon Golden. Bad grades? Nope. Not Pac 12 talent.
Why Polly Anna it, Mike Leach was paid big bucks. WSU decided to play big boy football. I fully agree with Leach, or any coach. If they aren't gonna help the team win, move on. When coaches get fired for grad rates and bad character, then I will go back to the Bill Doba, Paul Wulff of doing it the right way. Doing it the right way got two deer's run over on highway 26. Both Doba and Wulff were lambs for the slaughter.
