After watching Minshew in the Sr. Bowl- more convinced Leach is a wizard with special powers

[etowncoug]

Leach brings in 5 or so lineman the next year, so it's easy to get passed on the depth chart. Previous coaches haven't done this. When you recruit a couple of OL per year, it's easy for anyone with a big body to land in the two deep.

Leach gives his lineman pretty clear expectations of what he wants in terms of weight gains, and those who don't reach those goals find themselves on the outside looking in. More than a few people have left because it became clear they would never see the field. That's a biproduct of competition. Hard to stay on a football team and go through the regimen they do knowing you'll never play.

I stand corrected... how about this, the dead weight tends to leave opening up other spots more quickly?

2012 there were 7 recruits, 3 made it less than two years.

2013 there were 7 recruits, 4 made it through 4 years plus, 2 made it through 3 years, and one made it through signing day.

2014 there were three recruits. 1 made it through four years, 2 made it through less than one year.

2015 there were five recruits. 1 made it through four years, 2 made it through less than 2, 2 made it through less than one.

2016 6 recruits. 4 still on the roster means they have been around for 3 years, 2 were gone within 2 years.


So maybe I am jaded by 14/15/17 and they are distorting my numbers. It seems like he cycles through numbers instead of having them sit on the bench.

 

[YakiCoug]

Wrong. Where you don’t want to be is the last 10 guys or so on the roster.

Ah, the days when we signed only seven O-linemen in four years.

 

[YakiCoug]

Leach brings in 5 or so lineman the next year, so it's easy to get passed on the depth chart. Previous coaches haven't done this. When you recruit a couple of OL per year, it's easy for anyone with a big body to land in the two deep.

Leach gives his lineman pretty clear expectations of what he wants in terms of weight gains, and those who don't reach those goals find themselves on the outside looking in. More than a few people have left because it became clear they would never see the field. That's a biproduct of competition. Hard to stay on a football team and go through the regimen they do knowing you'll never play.

Competition is a frightening concept to many.

 

[CougEd]

Leach brings in 5 or so lineman the next year, so it's easy to get passed on the depth chart. Previous coaches haven't done this. When you recruit a couple of OL per year, it's easy for anyone with a big body to land in the two deep.

Leach gives his lineman pretty clear expectations of what he wants in terms of weight gains, and those who don't reach those goals find themselves on the outside looking in. More than a few people have left because it became clear they would never see the field. That's a biproduct of competition. Hard to stay on a football team and go through the regimen they do knowing you'll never play.

The reason other coaches didn't do that is they didn't get rid of the dead weight. Leach finds a way to make sure there are spots available to bring in another recruit.

Old school it was a true four year commitment. Walden or Price make a mistake in evaluation they would keep a guy around as long as they want. Now they want to leave.

 

[etowncoug]

The reason other coaches didn't do that is they didn't get rid of the dead weight. Leach finds a way to make sure there are spots available to bring in another recruit.

Old school it was a true four year commitment. Walden or Price make a mistake in evaluation they would keep a guy around as long as they want. Now they want to leave.

Scholarships are guaranteed for 4 years. Leach isn't cutting people and as evidenced with the Carlos Freeman's for the world, he'll keep a kid around even if they will never see the field. Kids just decide to leave much more quickly than they used to 10 plus years ago. Kids leaving hurts the APR scores and Leach wants to keep that up.

Which you might be trying to say, though there seems to be an implication is running kids off.

 

[CougEd]

Scholarships are guaranteed for 4 years. Leach isn't cutting people and as evidenced with the Carlos Freeman's for the world, he'll keep a kid around even if they will never see the field. Kids just decide to leave much more quickly than they used to 10 plus years ago. Kids leaving hurts the APR scores and Leach wants to keep that up.

Which you might be trying to say, though there seems to be an implication is running kids off.

They haven't been guaranteed until recently. Running off sure sounds harsh. I think if Leach "ran someone off" he would do it in a manner which it sounds like the kids idea.

But in 2012 did he run anyone off, or were they told they would never see the field, ever. Or did they simply leave because they wanted to go elsewhere. It doesn't matter.

While you talk abou tnot wanting kids to leave, sure seemed like kids left in 14/15 and 17. 13/16 classes sure hung around, as did 12.

 

[Fab5Coug]

I really, really get a laugh out of this statement. That kind of idiotic dismissive statement (that's factually wrong) is the kind of fall back that you go to when you don't really have a point. I did play football and ran track in high school, not that it means anything for anyone to have played high school football and have any kind of opinion about what it means to be a D-1 athlete or coach. If you were the BMOC on your campus and some kind of a high school stud....good for you, but if you didn't play in the Pac-12, your opinion has the same validity as Jimmy Joe Nobody who didn't play ball at all. Ironically, you talk sh!t about not playing football but your head football coach didn't play football.....so does that mean he shouldn't be coaching?

My comment about recruiting QB's is that we hear talk about recruiting 2 QB's per class and what happens when you do that is you either get guys who aren't going to be good enough to play or they both end up somewhere else because they don't want to have to deal with another QB in their class :cough:: 2016 ::cough:.

On the too many offensive linemen front.........all those scholarships and jack sh!t for production from the vast majority of them. To some degree, our lot in life requires us to take a few more gambles than other schools, but there were years where we were giving scholarships to guys that we knew were unlikely to pan out but didn't have better options. In hindsight, I'd rather give an extra OL schollie out, but I'm still baffled when we give out six. Something's got to give and that giving has been on the DL some years.....leading us to depth issues there at times. It's a crazy tough job to be a head coach and that's why the good ones get the money they do. I don't think Leach is perfect but it's obvious that he's better than the average coach by a fair margin.

How is that different than any other position? I could go back and look up all the LBs & WRs and DBs we've signed and the majority of them don't do jack shit either.

Here's a list of guys Leach has signed beginning in 2013. You tell me who the egregious waste of resources were.

2013: Sorenson, O'Connell, Madison, Seydel, Freeman, Meyer, McClain

Given the chance, you absolutely recruit Sorenson, O'Connella and Madison again. Seydel was a depth JC guy and off the roster after 2 years. That's fine. Meyer, I don't know that he even enrolled. Freeman ended up being a nobody, as was McClain.

2014: Dillard, Krepsz, Evers

Dillard was a home run. Krepsz & Evers didn't do a thing and were gone shortly after they were brought in.

2015: Osur Myers, Bigge Duren, Sakaria, Perrott, Price.

Jury is still out on Osur Myers, but he looks to be in the mix for next year. Same with Bigge Duren. I don't think Price signed. Perrott & Sakaria have been nothings.

2016: Mauigoa, Watson, Ryan, K. King, Haangana, Gaisoa

Mauigoa, Watson & Ryan have been great. King is already gone. Haangana is still around and I think Gaisoa is as well.

2017: Lucas, Valencia, Kuzmack, Nathanial

Lucas is a home run. Valencia played a bit, decent enough JC depth guy. Nathaniel is already gone. Kuzmack is still around.

So, by my count, out of 24 scholarships, you got 8 really, really good players. You got a couple more ok contributors. You got about 5 guys who are still around and could do something. And, you got about 9 that didn't do anything, but were out within a year or two.

The 9 or so, essentially were replaced with other scholarship players 1 or 2 years later. This is how we're able to take 25 ever year. Get em in, coach em up or coach em out.

That's how recruiting works and until you invent a crystal ball that tells you to only recruit the Madisons, Dillards and Lucases, that's how it will continue to work.

QB & OL recruiting have got to be all time odd things to complain about regarding Leach.

 

[CougEd]

Ed, old pal, I don't know where you were going with this one. Probably best to stop here and move on to another topic? Like one of my incredibly interesting, intelligent and insightful threads? I like to call them the IIII threads. Like the Fab 4.

Here is where I am going with it. Mike Leach plays big boy football. If a player isn't Pac 12 material and if there is a miss in evaluation they aren't staying on the roster for 5 years. You can call it running a player off, you can call it roster management. The old days people were offended when Bill Walsh didn't renew a players scholie that attended Kennedy High in the Seattle area. Others got offended when Rick N offered a RB early (from same high school coincidentally) and then when it came to signing day didn't have a scholie available for him.

In a perfect world everyone would honor the scholie and the contract. But this is the real world, the real world of college football and Leach isn't going to be a lamb for slaughter to do it "the right way".

The new right way is get it done within all legal means. Period.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

How is that different than any other position? I could go back and look up all the LBs & WRs and DBs we've signed and the majority of them don't do jack shit either.

Here's a list of guys Leach has signed beginning in 2013. You tell me who the egregious waste of resources were.

2013: Sorenson, O'Connell, Madison, Seydel, Freeman, Meyer, McClain

Given the chance, you absolutely recruit Sorenson, O'Connella and Madison again. Seydel was a depth JC guy and off the roster after 2 years. That's fine. Meyer, I don't know that he even enrolled. Freeman ended up being a nobody, as was McClain.

2014: Dillard, Krepsz, Evers

Dillard was a home run. Krepsz & Evers didn't do a thing and were gone shortly after they were brought in.

2015: Osur Myers, Bigge Duren, Sakaria, Perrott, Price.

Jury is still out on Osur Myers, but he looks to be in the mix for next year. Same with Bigge Duren. I don't think Price signed. Perrott & Sakaria have been nothings.

2016: Mauigoa, Watson, Ryan, K. King, Haangana, Gaisoa

Mauigoa, Watson & Ryan have been great. King is already gone. Haangana is still around and I think Gaisoa is as well.

2017: Lucas, Valencia, Kuzmack, Nathanial

Lucas is a home run. Valencia played a bit, decent enough JC depth guy. Nathaniel is already gone. Kuzmack is still around.

So, by my count, out of 24 scholarships, you got 8 really, really good players. You got a couple more ok contributors. You got about 5 guys who are still around and could do something. And, you got about 9 that didn't do anything, but were out within a year or two.

The 9 or so, essentially were replaced with other scholarship players 1 or 2 years later. This is how we're able to take 25 ever year. Get em in, coach em up or coach em out.

That's how recruiting works and until you invent a crystal ball that tells you to only recruit the Madisons, Dillards and Lucases, that's how it will continue to work.

QB & OL recruiting have got to be all time odd things to complain about regarding Leach.

I've long gotten over the fact that Leach likes to take more OL players than most coaches. With his demands of the OL, he needs to take 4 HS guys every year to get the 1 or 2 that he can work with. The odd year taking a 5th guy guy makes sense when the situation demands it because of graduation, injury, attrition of whatever kind. Anything past that and it should be unusual to see.

That 2013 class was good, but 7 OL players in one class borders on ridiculous and is completely unsustainable when you are trying to build a full roster at other positions. That was right after we took 7 OL guys in the 2012 class. Now, the reality is that Leach was trying to rebuild the OL from the weak mess we had with Wulff where Captain Paul was under-recruiting the position. He also knew that because of WSU's situation, a couple of the guys were risks that might not even make it to school. So, even though I thought he was throwing darts and hoping they'd stick, I understand the situation.

What's funny about the mythology of the "Leach is taking too many lineman" thing that I'm known for is that it started years ago and was based on my opinion of the recruiting back in 2016. Back then, I had looked around the conference and most coaches took about 3 OL recruits per year. Leach was taking a little over 4 recruits per year on average at Tech but had jumped to 7 recruits in those first two years at WSU and through 2015, he had recruited 22 OL players in four years. I said that was too many to be sustainable and people lost their minds because in their minds, we should always take 5-6 OL every year. What makes that ironic is that here is the list of the number of OL recruits he has taken since the big pack in 2012-13:

2014: 3
2015: 5
2016: 6
2017: 4
2018: 4
2019: 4 (so far)

So, in 2015, I said that taking 5-6 OL every year was dumb and it became a thing (for Yaki in particular). However, from 2014-2019, WSU was been below 5 OL recruits in 4 out of 6 seasons. So, all this BS you read about me saying that Leach was taking too many linemen is based on outdated information and that if anything, Leach's recruiting at the OL position supports my opinion that averaging closer to 4 OL per year was correct. So, the next time you think that "Leach is recruiting too many linemen" is funny, just remember that it's meaningless and doesn't have anything to do with reality. I used to think that 3-4 OL per year was enough and time has proven that 4 is where we really need to be and there are probably years where a 5th (probably juco) guy makes sense.

 

[CougEd]

How is that different than any other position? I could go back and look up all the LBs & WRs and DBs we've signed and the majority of them don't do jack shit either.

Here's a list of guys Leach has signed beginning in 2013. You tell me who the egregious waste of resources were.

2013: Sorenson, O'Connell, Madison, Seydel, Freeman, Meyer, McClain

Given the chance, you absolutely recruit Sorenson, O'Connella and Madison again. Seydel was a depth JC guy and off the roster after 2 years. That's fine. Meyer, I don't know that he even enrolled. Freeman ended up being a nobody, as was McClain.

2014: Dillard, Krepsz, Evers

Dillard was a home run. Krepsz & Evers didn't do a thing and were gone shortly after they were brought in.

2015: Osur Myers, Bigge Duren, Sakaria, Perrott, Price.

Jury is still out on Osur Myers, but he looks to be in the mix for next year. Same with Bigge Duren. I don't think Price signed. Perrott & Sakaria have been nothings.

2016: Mauigoa, Watson, Ryan, K. King, Haangana, Gaisoa

Mauigoa, Watson & Ryan have been great. King is already gone. Haangana is still around and I think Gaisoa is as well.

2017: Lucas, Valencia, Kuzmack, Nathanial

Lucas is a home run. Valencia played a bit, decent enough JC depth guy. Nathaniel is already gone. Kuzmack is still around.

So, by my count, out of 24 scholarships, you got 8 really, really good players. You got a couple more ok contributors. You got about 5 guys who are still around and could do something. And, you got about 9 that didn't do anything, but were out within a year or two.

The 9 or so, essentially were replaced with other scholarship players 1 or 2 years later. This is how we're able to take 25 ever year. Get em in, coach em up or coach em out.

That's how recruiting works and until you invent a crystal ball that tells you to only recruit the Madisons, Dillards and Lucases, that's how it will continue to work.

QB & OL recruiting have got to be all time odd things to complain about regarding Leach.

Fab-agreed. I am not sure Duren or Kuzmac are still around. Something that has not been commented on but worth noting, he is probably hitting on less than 50% of the lineman he has recruited. However, the lack of long term injury to the players who do start is pretty incredible. And I knock on wood as I type that. How many ACL injuries has the program had? How many other leg injuries that have knocked people out for weeks and months have they had? There is genius that NO one other than Leach has adopted and I have no idea why they haven't. It is his beach.

Just in terms of numbers, you are right they aren't sitting on kids that aren't going to play for 4/5 year peiod. Now there is exceptions, Freeman being one.

2014 three players recruited, Dillard played and starred. Two left very early.

2015 5 players recruited, no starters yet, and per the roster there is only one left. So in two classes in 14/15 8 players recruited, one starter so far.

2016 5 players recruited, three starters, 1 back up, one gone. In three years that puts us at 13 players, seven gone pretty early, one star, three starters, two back ups.

2017 5 players were recruited, one super star in Lucas, 1 back up in Valencia, and looks to be three already gone. Now from 14-17 we have 2 super stars, 3 other starters, 3 back ups. Out of 18 kids, 8 "made it"

So the lesson is two-fold. Leach knows there is attrition, lots of it. In a 4 year period he truly hit on 5-18 kids, 3 that may provide depth. The lesson is good olineman are hard to come by. The second piece of it is because lack of injuries he can get away with missing on these kids. He tends to keep his lineman together for a whole year

Now if Flat says the hit miss ratio is a bit high, and that we could have got another DT, then I understand (not necessarily agree) with his position. I appreciate Leach keeps going to the well and getting functional olineman.