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Are WSU's "money problems" overblown?

PeteTheChop

Hall Of Fame
May 25, 2005
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  • Can't afford to fire Coach Ernie Kent. Going to cost $4.2M if he doesn't take a diminished buyout (and why would anyone do that?). Only possible workaround is digging through the bargain bin for CEK's replacement. RESULT: Coach Kent steps aside and gets the full-blown, no discount crimson parachute. Dr. Schultz/Mr. Chun confidently shell out another $4.2M guaranteed for a verifiable analytics maestro and one of West Coast's most highly-regarded up-and-coming basketball coaches.
  • Hear ye, hear ye! Cougar Athletics is drowning in facilities-related debt. The Pac-12 Network's inarguable flop has created a financial hole in Pullman bigger than the Alaskan Way Viaduct tunnel. Major cutbacks and severe belt-tightening are frighteningly inevitable. RESULT: Record-setting fund-raising by Mr. Chun and his team. Modernized baseball complex and state-of-the-art football IPF on schedule. Beasley Coliseum upgrades in discussion.
  • Mike Leach is going to leave for a higher-paying or "more prestigious" job just like Jackie Sherrill, Warren Powers, Jim Walden, Dennis Erickson, Mike Price, etc. Result: CML is entering his 8th season at WSU, where he's averaged 9-plus wins over the past 4 seasons and continued on his HALL of FAME trek. Dr. Schultz and Mr. Chun will pay Coach Leach well over $4M in the 2020 season for that success.
Consider a recent post here with cogent (if overlooked) assertions made by two of the top 7, 8, 9 posters on any Cougar message board:
  1. There are huge money-making opportunities available for WSU
  2. The state (of Washington) just paid for Martin Stadium's renovation

Seems like these "money problems" have a way of working themselves out when all is said and done.
 
lol. Read your post, thought about it, "I'll post something later, after I've thought about it and could be more clear and logical". I open my twitter account a short time later and find this:


I think the concept of "start winning and everything starts to take care of itself" comes to mind.
 
  • Can't afford to fire Coach Ernie Kent. Going to cost $4.2M if he doesn't take a diminished buyout (and why would anyone do that?). Only possible workaround is digging through the bargain bin for CEK's replacement. RESULT: Coach Kent steps aside and gets the full-blown, no discount crimson parachute. Dr. Schultz/Mr. Chun confidently shell out another $4.2M guaranteed for a verifiable analytics maestro and one of West Coast's most highly-regarded up-and-coming basketball coaches.
  • Hear ye, hear ye! Cougar Athletics is drowning in facilities-related debt. The Pac-12 Network's inarguable flop has created a financial hole in Pullman bigger than the Alaskan Way Viaduct tunnel. Major cutbacks and severe belt-tightening are frighteningly inevitable. RESULT: Record-setting fund-raising by Mr. Chun and his team. Modernized baseball complex and state-of-the-art football IPF on schedule. Beasley Coliseum upgrades in discussion.
  • Mike Leach is going to leave for a higher-paying or "more prestigious" job just like Jackie Sherrill, Warren Powers, Jim Walden, Dennis Erickson, Mike Price, etc. Result: CML is entering his 8th season at WSU, where he's averaged 9-plus wins over the past 4 seasons and continued on his HALL of FAME trek. Dr. Schultz and Mr. Chun will pay Coach Leach well over $4M in the 2020 season for that success.
Consider a recent post here with cogent (if overlooked) assertions made by two of the top 7, 8, 9 posters on any Cougar message board:
  1. There are huge money-making opportunities available for WSU
  2. The state (of Washington) just paid for Martin Stadium's renovation

Seems like these "money problems" have a way of working themselves out when all is said and done.

Overblown ? Not sure. I am a simple math guy. In the mortgage biz we don’t lend on what we think you will make, we lend on what you did make ( save 2000-2007) . And when the industry didn’t lend based on past performance it didn’t end up well.

Budgeting based on what you hope the revenue would be raised is very problematic for WSU.

They will find money whether it is a donor or cuts in other areas that will help pay for hiring what they believe is the right coach. Trust me Klay getting his number retired wasn’t by accident . It is a subtle way of getting some money out of him .
 
I think Schulz is behind successful athletics. I was worried at first that he would be a budget hawk, but I think he's turning that corner. I also think the Regents are generally supportive of athletics as well. Politically, I think he realizes Athletics is the biggest connection the University has to its alums.

I also think Chun is doing what Moos didn't necessary to and that's get out. The fact that he personally went to meet Klay and give him the news, speaks volumes. He wants to engage with these guys as he knows Klay's involvement with WSU hoops is huge. What HS hoops kid doesn't know his name?
 
  • Hear ye, hear ye! Cougar Athletics is drowning in facilities-related debt. The Pac-12 Network's inarguable flop has created a financial hole in Pullman bigger than the Alaskan Way Viaduct tunnel. Major cutbacks and severe belt-tightening are frighteningly inevitable. RESULT: Record-setting fund-raising by Mr. Chun and his team. Modernized baseball complex and state-of-the-art football IPF on schedule. Beasley Coliseum upgrades in discussion.
Consider a recent post here with cogent (if overlooked) assertions made by two of the top 7, 8, 9 posters on any Cougar message board:
  1. There are huge money-making opportunities available for WSU
  2. The state (of Washington) just paid for Martin Stadium's renovation

Seems like these "money problems" have a way of working themselves out when all is said and done.

lol. Read your post, thought about it, "I'll post something later, after I've thought about it and could be more clear and logical". I open my twitter account a short time later and find this:
.

Pete - please show us these record-breaking fund-raising results? And FWIW, donations to the CAF are just part of the equation. Major facilities and naming gifts are a whole 'nother category. One thing about this - just having something go up every may technically be "record breaking", but doesn't consider the obviouses - inflation and a bigger population of potential givers. That said, I will stipulate to the notion that CAF giving has gone up in the last year. (Stipulate = lawyer talk)

IPF is on schedule? Pete your own footer sez that Schulz said it will be built "soon" Dated December 15. 2017

Beasley upgrades in discussion? Provide link please.

Oh - and What?

Is today some sort of special day for giving? Guess I missed the memo.
 
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Please show us these record-breaking fund-raising results?
From Rob Chun and WSU Insider (7/18): "As the 2017-18 fiscal year closed, the Cougar Athletic Fund set records for both annual giving revenue and overall giving."


IPF is on schedule?
From Brand X (1/19): "Schultz said he’ll be disappointed if fundraising for the $25 million IPF isn’t completed by the end of this year."

Beasley upgrades in discussion?
Both Brand Y and Die Hard Cougs on Facebook have inferred recently that there have been high-level discussions about major improvements.

One last point to consider about WSU's so-called financial issues, this time from the prestigious Spokane Spokesman-Review (6/18):

"Rob Chun calls WSU 'the most efficient' athletic department at the Power Five level, based on annual operating expenses and expenditures, which both rank lowest in the Pac-12 and in the country (Power Five schools only)."
 
No, WSU Athletic Department will never recover and ya boy Moos is to blame!

The same Mr. Moos who hired spearheaded the hiring of a Hall of Fame football coach and a football facilities upgrade second to none in the conference?

CP, with all due respect sir, wouldn't you say WSU's Football success — one of the best 4-year runs in Cougar history (or among all Pacific Northwest programs, for that matter) >>> continued mediocrity of WSU men's basketball?

Edited to add: If the extended rollover for CEK (approved by Bill's financially prudent bosses BTW) was a "never recover" type of situation, wouldn't Mr. Chun have delayed making a change for another season or two?
 
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Overblown ? Not sure. I am a simple math guy. In the mortgage biz we don’t lend on what we think you will make, we lend on what you did make ( save 2000-2007) . And when the industry didn’t lend based on past performance it didn’t end up well.

Budgeting based on what you hope the revenue would be raised is very problematic for WSU.

They will find money whether it is a donor or cuts in other areas that will help pay for hiring what they believe is the right coach. Trust me Klay getting his number retired wasn’t by accident . It is a subtle way of getting some money out of him .

There are plenty of ways to massage income to get an approval. And the entire industry is built around getting an approval. If you had a client in the financial shape of WSU, would you push for more loans given it's revenue/expenses currently?
 
There are plenty of ways to massage income to get an approval. And the entire industry is built around getting an approval. If you had a client in the financial shape of WSU, would you push for more loans given it's revenue/expenses currently?

There are , please do tell .
 
If a client came into your office with WSU athletics debt to income ratio (assume perfect credit), could you present the application in a way to get it past an underwriter?
 
The same Mr. Moos who hired spearheaded the hiring of a Hall of Fame football coach and a football facilities upgrade second to none in the conference?

CP, with all due respect sir, wouldn't you say WSU's Football success — one of the best 4-year runs in Cougar history (or among all Pacific Northwest programs, for that matter) >>> continued mediocrity of WSU men's basketball?

Edited to add: If the extended rollover for CEK (approved by Bill's financially prudent bosses BTW) was a "never recover" type of situation, wouldn't Mr. Chun have delayed making a change for another season or two?

I think he's being sarcastic.

As to your question. Yes things are WAY overblown in regards to our "money problems"

We had 64 million in revenue last athletic year. (number is not this past year) This year will be more.

We had 41 million in 2011.

So we are generating 23 million dollars more in revenue than 7 years ago. A 56% increase.

Even if the total cost for the athletic budget all the construction all the upgrades including coaching cost 250 million bucks. With a 23 million increase in revenue it would take just 10.8 years to break even.

People mock my 750 million to completely reinvent Ellensburg and the Apple Cup into one of the top premiere college football game experiences and little ole WSU should be able to pay back 1/3 of that in under 11 years.

Leach is in the 8th year of his contract. Remember there are 3 years left for that 10.8 number.

So at some point in the next 3 years the AD will be in the black and paying the University back completely.

And what does Chun say...

“WSU projects a cumulative deficit of $74.8 million at the end of FY2019, $80.1 million in FY2020, $83.1 million in FY2021 and $85.1 million in FY2022 before finally breaking even, and reaching a single-year surplus, in FY2023.”

2012 to 2023 is what? 11 years.

So 85 million over that 11 years is 7 million a year so that means we spent 327million as opposed to the 250 I speculated. So let’s do the math with 23 million increase 14 years.

We’ve done 7 of them so we are basically 7 years from completely replenishing the Cougar Football Project the Martin Stadium Renovations, Leach upgrades etc. etc.

Most people can’t pay off their home in 15 years. We paid off Martin Stadium and built a home for Cougar football in just 14.
 
Pete - please show us these record-breaking fund-raising results? And FWIW, donations to the CAF are just part of the equation. Major facilities and naming gifts are a whole 'nother category. One thing about this - just having something go up every may technically be "record breaking", but doesn't consider the obviouses - inflation and a bigger population of potential givers. That said, I will stipulate to the notion that CAF giving has gone up in the last year. (Stipulate = lawyer talk)

IPF is on schedule? Pete your own footer sez that Schulz said it will be built "soon" Dated December 15. 2017

Beasley upgrades in discussion? Provide link please.

Oh - and What?

Is today some sort of special day for giving? Guess I missed the memo.
Today is the annual CougsGive day -- started a couple years ago in connection with the anniversary of WSU's founding. www.cougsgive.wsu.edu Check out the website -- there are many matching gift opportunities across the university, whatever your degree(s) and interest area(s) are. I think this is a giving campaign aimed at connecting with younger alums through social media, but I could be wrong about that. I did just see a tweet indicating that over $250K has been given today across the university. This is something a lot of colleges are doing.
 
If a client came into your office with WSU athletics debt to income ratio (assume perfect credit), could you present the application in a way to get it past an underwriter?

If true they take in less money then they spend there is no way.
 
Today is the annual CougsGive day .... This I did just see a tweet indicating that over $250K has been given today across the university.

Wow, thanks for sharing TZ.

Somebody should alert the competition.

Over the last 24 hours, Wazzu Nation is proving the tiresome "Cougs are tightwads" cheap shots from Brand X are fake news.
 
  • Can't afford to fire Coach Ernie Kent. Going to cost $4.2M if he doesn't take a diminished buyout (and why would anyone do that?). Only possible workaround is digging through the bargain bin for CEK's replacement. RESULT: Coach Kent steps aside and gets the full-blown, no discount crimson parachute. Dr. Schultz/Mr. Chun confidently shell out another $4.2M guaranteed for a verifiable analytics maestro and one of West Coast's most highly-regarded up-and-coming basketball coaches.
  • Hear ye, hear ye! Cougar Athletics is drowning in facilities-related debt. The Pac-12 Network's inarguable flop has created a financial hole in Pullman bigger than the Alaskan Way Viaduct tunnel. Major cutbacks and severe belt-tightening are frighteningly inevitable. RESULT: Record-setting fund-raising by Mr. Chun and his team. Modernized baseball complex and state-of-the-art football IPF on schedule. Beasley Coliseum upgrades in discussion.
  • Mike Leach is going to leave for a higher-paying or "more prestigious" job just like Jackie Sherrill, Warren Powers, Jim Walden, Dennis Erickson, Mike Price, etc. Result: CML is entering his 8th season at WSU, where he's averaged 9-plus wins over the past 4 seasons and continued on his HALL of FAME trek. Dr. Schultz and Mr. Chun will pay Coach Leach well over $4M in the 2020 season for that success.
Consider a recent post here with cogent (if overlooked) assertions made by two of the top 7, 8, 9 posters on any Cougar message board:
  1. There are huge money-making opportunities available for WSU
  2. The state (of Washington) just paid for Martin Stadium's renovation

Seems like these "money problems" have a way of working themselves out when all is said and done.
Overblown? Depends how you look at it.

The athletics debt is real, and a big part of the reason for it is the overly optimistic revenue projections for the Pac-12 Network. That's not a surprise.

But, it's a bit of a shell game. Money moves around and changes color. The Athletic department budget is, at least on the surface, separate from the university budget and is theoretically self-supporting. Of course, we all know that most ADs are not truly self-supporting, so they end up getting propped up by the university budget. This is pretty easy with facilities, since while they do support athletics, they are in the end still university buildings. There's also an argument that the athletics department is a marketing and outreach tool, so some general expenditure is justified. So, yes...university funds do support the athletic department. Perhaps not as an explicit line in the budget, but as an expense from reserve funds or from allocations to marketing.

And, that's where the "money problems" emerge - reserve funds. The real issue currently being addressed is that for the last several years, the university has been overspending its budget (thanks in large part - but not entirely - to the AD) and dipping into reserves to cover operating expenses. Dipping to the tune of several million dollars per year. So, it's not that the university is broke...or really even close to it. The issue is that if they don't correct the issue, the university could be broke in a few years. So the edict has come out that spending needs to be reduced, we need to stop dipping into reserves, and eventually start rebuilding the reserves.

That all makes sense to me, and probably does to most people. You don't use your emergency cash to buy a cup of coffee. Where I have a problem is that although athletics created the bulk of the debt, and a large part of the reserve expenses have supported their expansion, athletics is pretty much excluded from the directive to reduce expenses. All of the other campus departments - particularly the various campus services - are tightening their belts to pay back athletics money.

Kent's payoff is going to ultimately come from reserves, and it'll get recovered from non-athletics sources. Based on where WSU expenses are, that means positions get held vacant and/or people get laid off, or maintenance gets deferred. Probably both. Positions that aren't supported by donor funds or research grants are going to carry the brunt - maintenance, custodians, payroll, contracts, safety, clerical, etc.

So, the debt is real. The crisis is somewhat overblown, as it's not a critical situation now but it could become one eventually. But, there's really not a money problem in the Athletics Department, because if they have to spend a few million it'll ultimately just get shaved from the rest of the university. Problem is that the current model spreads staff too thin in some areas, which results in things which are happening now that are less visible - garbage doesn't get emptied as often, burned out lights don't get replaced, contracts don't get reviewed, and injury rates go up. And, nobody will really care as long as teams keep winning, kids keep graduating, and tuition doesn't go up.

Rant over. For the moment.
 
So you only loan to clients with no debt?

Nope. The most important person guiding the country through the financial crisis in 08-10 probably was Ben Bernanke. Once he left public service he had I am sure millionaires but no “standard” streams of income . He was turned down for a home loan.

If WSU is a client and the debt ratio is greater than 43% on a jumbo loan and 50% on a conventional loan it is an automatic turn down.
 
Nope. The most important person guiding the country through the financial crisis in 08-10 probably was Ben Bernanke. Once he left public service he had I am sure millionaires but no “standard” streams of income . He was turned down for a home loan.

If WSU is a client and the debt ratio is greater than 43% on a jumbo loan and 50% on a conventional loan it is an automatic turn down.

If you millions in cash, it's pretty easy to create the standard income necessary for a loan. All within the rules.

Plus DTI ratio is based on the interest payments against gross revenue. We aren't to 2006-2007 levels of insanity in the mortgage industry, but it's pretty easy to get an approval if you have consistent income and a not horrible credit (620 or better).
 
If you millions in cash, it's pretty easy to create the standard income necessary for a loan. All within the rules.

Plus DTI ratio is based on the interest payments against gross revenue. We aren't to 2006-2007 levels of insanity in the mortgage industry, but it's pretty easy to get an approval if you have consistent income and a not horrible credit (620 or better).

U in the biz?
 
The same Mr. Moos who hired spearheaded the hiring of a Hall of Fame football coach and a football facilities upgrade second to none in the conference?

CP, with all due respect sir, wouldn't you say WSU's Football success — one of the best 4-year runs in Cougar history (or among all Pacific Northwest programs, for that matter) >>> continued mediocrity of WSU men's basketball?

Edited to add: If the extended rollover for CEK (approved by Bill's financially prudent bosses BTW) was a "never recover" type of situation, wouldn't Mr. Chun have delayed making a change for another season or two?

I was being sarcastic, apologies!
 
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I was, kept my license and supplemented my income with loans while I did some non-profit work.

I am just curios cause I know chase and Wells for example in their guides won’t allow income that you have claimed on their jumbo loans. If a client takes one withdrawal from their it’s they will allow that income.

Fannie and Freddie are very specific in their guides, their are niche or “non prime “ that will allow investment acct if you have never drawn that income before and get like a 4% return .

But I have yet to see a lender fork over funds when a business is in the red and has a greater dti than 43 or 50%.

Must be doing something wrong .
 
I am just curios cause I know chase and Wells for example in their guides won’t allow income that you have claimed on their jumbo loans. If a client takes one withdrawal from their it’s they will allow that income.

Fannie and Freddie are very specific in their guides, their are niche or “non prime “ that will allow investment acct if you have never drawn that income before and get like a 4% return .

But I have yet to see a lender fork over funds when a business is in the red and has a greater dti than 43 or 50%.

Must be doing something wrong .

I've gotten approval at a 56.9% back end DTI on an FHA loan. Underwriter didn't even blink. Of course it's rare when a situation like this is in the clients best interest, but they exist. Conventional loans are more strict with the DTI, but come with a lot more flexibility in other areas.

Back to WSU in particular, the debt service payments represent a relatively small portion of Athletics revenue. They operate in the red each year, but realistically they have a rich parent who "lends" them money each month to cover the bills at a zero interest loan. Most of the "debt" athletics has won't interfere with it's ability to repay any new bonds issued for a building project. Get the parents (with their massive cash reserves) to co-sign on the loan if need be, but something can probably be done without too much creative accounting.

Should it be done is another question entirely.
 
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