JDL suspended, Calvin leaving
- Thread starter chugspig
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Things are much worse in Pullman than we have seen. Might be a rough week or two as a handful of players we we're leaning on for support next year appear headed out the door.
Excited to hear the spin on how we didn't want Calvin anyway.
Jamire has talent and has shown flashes of being real good. He also at times has had the dropsies and he’s struggled to stay healthy enough to contribute. It will be interesting to see where he lands.
All I see are some players recruited by a previous staff that don’t mesh with the new staff. It happens. No clue what you expect Rolovich to do. Kiss their ass? If they don’t buy in with the new staff Wazzu isn’t good for them and they need to find a new spot. Doesn’t mean they won’t be missed but program doesn’t need a locker room like that.
It does happen with a new coaching staff. It happened with our previous coach, and the coach before him. It could be a problem if there are other issues we don't know about. But, unless we find out otherwise, I will chalk this up to normal turnover.
Calvin’s body language early in the season wasn’t good. At least a few folks here speculated he was not happy. I’m not surprised he left but wish it worked out. I really liked the kid.
Jesus, some of you guys are acting as if you've never seen this type of thing after a coaching change. This thread is word for word what the Mississippi State board griping about last October. It was bound to happen.
Hector's situation is a disappointment, but Calvin? Decent player, but that's all. We can find other WRs.
Hector's situation is a disappointment, but Calvin? Decent player, but that's all. We can find other WRs.
Not sure a ton of the details will ever come to light but I've heard a ton of not happy rumblings in the past year or so. All the news in the past several weeks fit these rumblings. I was surprised when we had so few players transfer out by the semester break and thought concerns I had heard were overblown. Now things seems to be flaring up again and kids are voting with their feet.
If kids feel they have a better opportunity somewhere else they should take it. You get 4 years to play. Make them count.
I dont expect everyone to get along with everybody. It’s life. Not everyone likes each other. Move on and find a better scenario.
Behavior issues need to be dealt with. Have high, unwavering standards and hold kids and coaches to them. If kids can’t behave themselves there is no shortage of 3 star players wanting a scholarship.
Hell, the entire West Coast has yet to play! If WSU has money cause someone left, get on the phone or plane and find someone new. This was the smallest amount of kids I have ever seen sign Pac 12 scholarships. I would be willing to be there are 50 legit ball players on the West Coast still out there looking for a scholarship.
I dont expect everyone to get along with everybody. It’s life. Not everyone likes each other. Move on and find a better scenario.
Behavior issues need to be dealt with. Have high, unwavering standards and hold kids and coaches to them. If kids can’t behave themselves there is no shortage of 3 star players wanting a scholarship.
Hell, the entire West Coast has yet to play! If WSU has money cause someone left, get on the phone or plane and find someone new. This was the smallest amount of kids I have ever seen sign Pac 12 scholarships. I would be willing to be there are 50 legit ball players on the West Coast still out there looking for a scholarship.
Players that have left Rolo/WSU, been suspended, banned, washed out, etc.
Note please feel free to update, correct this list.
Tay Martin
Kass Woods
Jamire Calvin.
JDL
Hector
QB, transfering to compete for starting job at Pac 12 Arizona
Ross
Clay Markoff
Willie Taylor
DL(the 3,4,3.5 star transfer from either West Virginia, Virginia, etc)
Travion Brown
Skyler Thomas
Now a little turnover, is expected.
And some are transfering to get more playing time.
And 1,2, etc, are troublemakers.
But there has been some key starters, talent, depth, etc, lost.
And there has been a HELL of a LOT of turnover, seemingly more then what is normal.
Now some of that may or may not be Rolo's fault. And yes Rolo shouldnt be kissing ass, tolerating troublemakers. And some might not be buying in.
But be that as it is, when there is this much turnover, one cant help but wonder if there is something that Rolo could do that is not ass kissing, tolerating those that cause trouble, dont buy in.
I dont know if there is something Rolo can do, but maybe he Rolo is doing something bad, or not doing something that he should do.
I dont know. And we dont have a way of knowing. And that may be cause for giving Rolo the benefit of a doubt.
But since there seems to be a lot of this happening, am or if there is or continues to be a lot of this happening, at what point, and at some point Rolo might be to blame.
After all a few cases of this, probably not Rolo's fault.
But a lot of this stuff, and it might probably be Rolo's fault, as where there's Smoke, there's fire, and probably someone at fault.
And that someone is probably the HC, Rolo.
That may or may not be fair, but it is what it is.
I dont know what Rolo should do, or should have done, but at some point, you have to do something, even if its a little tiny bit of compromise, change, etc, in order to keep everybody from transfering out, getting suspended, etc, and having your program burn down around you.
And if Rolo has that happen to him, then right or wrong, fair or unfair, thats on Rolo.
One of the HC's of Idaho, I forget his name, but may have been Holt or Tolt, after he became HC, had a lot of transfers, washouts, non buy ins, suspensions, etc, and the Idaho Program burnt down around him, abd he was rightly fired.
Same kind of thing with Paul Wulf.
Now I'm not saying Rolo is like that Idaho HC, or Wulf, etc.
But it is fair to wonder what the Hell is going on with Rolo and the WSU program, based on the Transfers, suspensions, non buy ins, etc.
Note please feel free to update, correct this list.
Tay Martin
Kass Woods
Jamire Calvin.
JDL
Hector
QB, transfering to compete for starting job at Pac 12 Arizona
Ross
Clay Markoff
Willie Taylor
DL(the 3,4,3.5 star transfer from either West Virginia, Virginia, etc)
Travion Brown
Skyler Thomas
Now a little turnover, is expected.
And some are transfering to get more playing time.
And 1,2, etc, are troublemakers.
But there has been some key starters, talent, depth, etc, lost.
And there has been a HELL of a LOT of turnover, seemingly more then what is normal.
Now some of that may or may not be Rolo's fault. And yes Rolo shouldnt be kissing ass, tolerating troublemakers. And some might not be buying in.
But be that as it is, when there is this much turnover, one cant help but wonder if there is something that Rolo could do that is not ass kissing, tolerating those that cause trouble, dont buy in.
I dont know if there is something Rolo can do, but maybe he Rolo is doing something bad, or not doing something that he should do.
I dont know. And we dont have a way of knowing. And that may be cause for giving Rolo the benefit of a doubt.
But since there seems to be a lot of this happening, am or if there is or continues to be a lot of this happening, at what point, and at some point Rolo might be to blame.
After all a few cases of this, probably not Rolo's fault.
But a lot of this stuff, and it might probably be Rolo's fault, as where there's Smoke, there's fire, and probably someone at fault.
And that someone is probably the HC, Rolo.
That may or may not be fair, but it is what it is.
I dont know what Rolo should do, or should have done, but at some point, you have to do something, even if its a little tiny bit of compromise, change, etc, in order to keep everybody from transfering out, getting suspended, etc, and having your program burn down around you.
And if Rolo has that happen to him, then right or wrong, fair or unfair, thats on Rolo.
One of the HC's of Idaho, I forget his name, but may have been Holt or Tolt, after he became HC, had a lot of transfers, washouts, non buy ins, suspensions, etc, and the Idaho Program burnt down around him, abd he was rightly fired.
Same kind of thing with Paul Wulf.
Now I'm not saying Rolo is like that Idaho HC, or Wulf, etc.
But it is fair to wonder what the Hell is going on with Rolo and the WSU program, based on the Transfers, suspensions, non buy ins, etc.
WSU lost a consensus "national" coach and replaced him with a regional guy. WSU football feels more JV now. Whether that's a fair assessment or not, it's the truth, and now the perception of the program.
I'm not here to debate whether you felt like Leach mailed it in the past couple of seasons, but the perception with him at the helm was a ton more national and conference respect. As soon as he bolted the Cougars went back to the "little ol WSU" program.
UW and WSU now have "regional" coaches again. OSU continues to have that vibe as well. Oregon is the only PNW university that has a "national" coach. Whether again you believe it or not, (or think he isn't an elite coach) it's the perception. It's not Rolovich's fault, it's just how it is, and deep down I think this has something to do with the portal, etc.
I'm not here to debate whether you felt like Leach mailed it in the past couple of seasons, but the perception with him at the helm was a ton more national and conference respect. As soon as he bolted the Cougars went back to the "little ol WSU" program.
UW and WSU now have "regional" coaches again. OSU continues to have that vibe as well. Oregon is the only PNW university that has a "national" coach. Whether again you believe it or not, (or think he isn't an elite coach) it's the perception. It's not Rolovich's fault, it's just how it is, and deep down I think this has something to do with the portal, etc.
Calvin felt criminally underutilized in what we saw of the offense last fall.
JDL should be drinking less alcohol and instead learn how to throw the football.
5 second wind ups have no place in Division I.
5 second wind ups have no place in Division I.
It was a huge step back in branding. Rolo is not established at all. WSU is trying to catch a rising star at its beginning. In his defense, he has signed 2 classes and coached 4 games. It’s a terrible way to start. He hasn't had much of a chance to show what he can do. That isn’t his fault. In WSU’s defense, there are only so many established coaches around. Not everyone is gonna get one. And if you don’t have big time facilities or aren't willing to spend the money, why would those guys choose your school?
If WSU wants respect they have to go out and take it. They have to win. Then win more. Then blow people out. Then win more. Then maybe. The respect WSU gets is commensurate with the investment the school has made in football over the past 100 years.
Weren’t there also some comments to the same about Leach leaving? Let’s remember things were not so rosey in his last year either.
There’s 100 guys on the team, many of which have options that weren’t available 5 years ago, almost all of which have been told they’re the greatest thing ever since they were in pee wees.
I don’t like hearing this stuff either but I’d say all things considered with our NFL prospects returning along with the majority of quality players who are 6th year guys, things are gonna be ok.
I guess I look at all of this just a bit differently. First, how many kids do you think would have transferred out by now if Leach had stayed? You know, Mr. warm and fuzzy Mike Leach, who had great sympathy and empathy for every kid on the roster whose performance was not good enough to get them playing time (your BS meter should be pegging by now)? I would posit that since turnover had become a normal thing on the Leach roster, some Rolo turn over is no surprise. And the emergence of the portal only amplifies that trend.
The majority of the players that Mike listed were simply not going to see the field much at the PAC level. Markoff is a good example. He can play somewhere; I could easily see him being a big part of some Big Sky offense. His leaving WSU and going to a Big Sky program does not hurt Wazzu and will help some Big Sky school, while also getting Clay a chance to play regularly. I applaud the decision. And it isn't just Markoff; all but a handful of the guys who have left were at a point in their career when they had to decide if they wanted to stay at WSU and hope they could earn (remember the word, "earn", as it applies to football PT? A lot of people today don't want to "earn" PT...) playing time, or whether they should take a chance on going elsewhere. The fact that WSU has a new coach, and that last season was so truncated, probably was additional motivation in the "fish or cut bait" decision timing.
The JDL DUI is a separate issue. When any kid does that, the program has to respond. Even at Oregon or UW, the absolute home of poor life choice enabling, the program would have come up with some sort of suspension that involved spring ball somehow. Maybe not all of spring ball, but at least something.
Earl nailed it with Jamire. He has potential, but was too inconsistent to become the major target over the brief 4 game "season". Might he have gotten better with a full season, and be in a better spot as a result? Sure, it might have happened. But instead of recognizing that it was his own issues that kept him from excelling, it sounds as though he is blaming the coaching staff or the program instead. There was another thread on another site that recently posted the numbers of kids who had entered the portal vs. the number that actually have a scholie now at some other school. The numbers were approx 1100 who had entered the portal vs. only 300 who ended up with a scholarship. The rest gave up a scholarship to walk on somewhere. Jamire is probably good enough to get a scholie somewhere, but if he decides to go, it seems unlikely that a P5 school would pick him up.
I don't know what is going on with Hector. I hope he decides to stay. Seemed like a good kid. On the other hand, we just loaded up with D backs, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I don't know.
Long story short, if Leach were still here and we had just gone through a 4 game covid season, with the portal dynamics that exist right now, I suspect the scenario would be pretty similar. We'd have gotten some kids (as we did) and lost some kids (as we did). This does not appear to be on Rolo.
The majority of the players that Mike listed were simply not going to see the field much at the PAC level. Markoff is a good example. He can play somewhere; I could easily see him being a big part of some Big Sky offense. His leaving WSU and going to a Big Sky program does not hurt Wazzu and will help some Big Sky school, while also getting Clay a chance to play regularly. I applaud the decision. And it isn't just Markoff; all but a handful of the guys who have left were at a point in their career when they had to decide if they wanted to stay at WSU and hope they could earn (remember the word, "earn", as it applies to football PT? A lot of people today don't want to "earn" PT...) playing time, or whether they should take a chance on going elsewhere. The fact that WSU has a new coach, and that last season was so truncated, probably was additional motivation in the "fish or cut bait" decision timing.
The JDL DUI is a separate issue. When any kid does that, the program has to respond. Even at Oregon or UW, the absolute home of poor life choice enabling, the program would have come up with some sort of suspension that involved spring ball somehow. Maybe not all of spring ball, but at least something.
Earl nailed it with Jamire. He has potential, but was too inconsistent to become the major target over the brief 4 game "season". Might he have gotten better with a full season, and be in a better spot as a result? Sure, it might have happened. But instead of recognizing that it was his own issues that kept him from excelling, it sounds as though he is blaming the coaching staff or the program instead. There was another thread on another site that recently posted the numbers of kids who had entered the portal vs. the number that actually have a scholie now at some other school. The numbers were approx 1100 who had entered the portal vs. only 300 who ended up with a scholarship. The rest gave up a scholarship to walk on somewhere. Jamire is probably good enough to get a scholie somewhere, but if he decides to go, it seems unlikely that a P5 school would pick him up.
I don't know what is going on with Hector. I hope he decides to stay. Seemed like a good kid. On the other hand, we just loaded up with D backs, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I don't know.
Long story short, if Leach were still here and we had just gone through a 4 game covid season, with the portal dynamics that exist right now, I suspect the scenario would be pretty similar. We'd have gotten some kids (as we did) and lost some kids (as we did). This does not appear to be on Rolo.
I agree - some of this Rolo couldn't control and it's just bad timing. Hoping what he can control is the day-to-day since he's been on the job. There's been pros and cons across spectrums.
I was happy to see WSU open the pocket book for a coach, $3M is a very good salary, it just felt like that was an overpay to get in on an up-and-comer like Rolo, so would've $3.5M-$4M gotten a more established coach? Maybe they tried.
Like you said, WSU didn't invest in football for far too long. It's apparently and Chun's biggest hurdle for the program is the branding perception. Winning football games is No. 1, obviously, but branding should be No. 1B.
If WSU isn't going to commit to having a brand itself, it would behoove them to hire a coach that has an already established brand. They chose neither. They are striking out to develop both.
JDL was already looking shaky, but he was a known quantity. Losing Calvin is bad. Not good signs but also too early to say anything definitively.
Don't forget that the Leach era started off with Marquess Wilson and others leaving - and it still preceded the greatest era of WSU football ever.
Don't forget that the Leach era started off with Marquess Wilson and others leaving - and it still preceded the greatest era of WSU football ever.
Jamire Calvin, was on track, a favorite to be one of the main 2,3,4 producing WR starters.
Losing him will impact WSU, and maybe cause WSU to lose, is worth 3/4 of a win/loss. He might be a difference between 5-7,6-6,7-5, etc.
Not saying he is irreplaceable, as there are those that could replace him, and WSU could still be 6-6, 7-5, 8-4, 9-3.
And if WSU doesnt get Hector back from suspension, with losing Skyler Thomas to transfer, etc, that might probably could make Safety/Nickel/Seconday D weaker, and could cost WSU a game, an or cause WSU to be 5-7,6-6, instead of 7-5, 8-4, 9-3
And thats just 1 or the other each considered separately, when you combine losing both Hector, Jamire Calvin, and the other Transfers, that could cause 4-8, 5-7, 6-6, instead of 7-5, 8-4, 9-3.
As good as the returning NFL er's in Abe Lucas, Borghi, they cant do it all, they have to have offensive, defensive help, that they might probably have less of thanks to Jamire Calvin, Hector, etc.
Now I am not saying all is doom and gloom.
WSU could still do well without what was lost.
But there is still some reason for at least a little tiny bit of concern.
I'm not the biggest Rolo fan out there, but it's hard to fault the guy for suspending a player in and of itself. I'd be more concerned if whatever led to the suspension wasn't dealt with. These guys being out there doing stupid things justifying suspensions, though, might imply a lack of respect for Rolo, which is a potential downside of the "player's coach" image. Tricky balance.
Not to make it a Leach vs. Rolo thing, but as I've written about before, people focused on the downsides of some of Leach's quirks without considering the upside. Yes, he was relatively inflexible and not a player's coach. Players generally knew and respected the rules, though, and the ship was run pretty tight.
One downside of the "I'm a player's coach, we all love you guys" routine is that if you then have to get tough with kids or give them consequences, there is the potential for more of a negative reaction than if you were a hard ass with strict rules since the beginning, with players knowing where they stand.
As for Calvin, it sucks, but I understand it from the player's perspective. We had him playing outside out of necessity when that wasn't the best fit for him. He either would be stuck doing that again or going back in the mix with Harris, Bell, Hobert, potentially Jackson, and others on the inside. We have some issues at outside receiver but, as much as I admire Calvin as an athlete and good football player who worked hard to come back from injury, he wasn't exceptional on the outside and, while better suited on the inside, was replaceable there, too.
Not to make it a Leach vs. Rolo thing, but as I've written about before, people focused on the downsides of some of Leach's quirks without considering the upside. Yes, he was relatively inflexible and not a player's coach. Players generally knew and respected the rules, though, and the ship was run pretty tight.
One downside of the "I'm a player's coach, we all love you guys" routine is that if you then have to get tough with kids or give them consequences, there is the potential for more of a negative reaction than if you were a hard ass with strict rules since the beginning, with players knowing where they stand.
As for Calvin, it sucks, but I understand it from the player's perspective. We had him playing outside out of necessity when that wasn't the best fit for him. He either would be stuck doing that again or going back in the mix with Harris, Bell, Hobert, potentially Jackson, and others on the inside. We have some issues at outside receiver but, as much as I admire Calvin as an athlete and good football player who worked hard to come back from injury, he wasn't exceptional on the outside and, while better suited on the inside, was replaceable there, too.
We had 3 10 win seasons in a row during that period?
And 2 Rose bowls as well?
Interesting.
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Price had 2x consecutive 10-winners, not 3x. Doba was coach for 2003. Remember? Other thoughts:
- CML has a better W/L record than Price despite playing with a 2-year-handicap rebuilding after the worst coach in program history. If he took over for a mediocre coach like Price did, he'd have cleared 0.600 easy.
- Head to head, CML has the best 1-year stretch (11 wins), is tied for best 2-year stretch (20 wins), has the best 3-year stretch (28), best 4-year (37), best 5-year (43), best 6-year (46), best 7-year (52) and best 8-year (55). Most aren't close: in fact, CML's best record in any given stretch of years is 20% (!) better than CMP's.
- CML took us to as many bowls as CMP in about half the time. Some of that can be explained by growing bowl invite lists, but not enough to explain Leach's 2x success rate.
- Rose Bowls are great; less so when you lose both, and get smoked in the 2nd one.
- It's a real downer to think about what would have been with Cracraft & Marquess Wilson had they not been all or mostly wasted in that transition
I appreciate your response as I was kinda being a dick in my post. Sorry about that.
I would argue that while Leach had to deal with Paul Wulff's crap sandwhich he was handed....he had the facilities, name recognition, and Pac 12 money to get back on track.
Yes, Doba coached the 2003 team, but Price built it...so he gets a lot of credit there.
Leach only cracked 10 wins once and had an extra game to do so. Price had was able to do so 3 times and gets a good deal of credit for that despite facilities that were still in the Paleolithic era.
And as much as I liked that 2018 team, I don't think they could have beaten any of those 10 win teams.
Also, I think the Rosebowl would have been a lot closer had Price not decided to leave...or let Doba coach. That was a recipe for disaster.
While the 2018 Minshew team probably would not beat the 2 Rosebowl teams:
1. 1 of them would have been semi close.
2. If you teleported the 2, 10-2, Rosebowl teams into 2018, guess what? They would not have gotten a Rosebowl at 10-2. They would have been hosed, snubbed, with a 10-2, 11-1 record, and wouldnt have gone to Rosebowl, and may not have gotten a NY6 Cotton Bowl, or Fiesta Bowl, and still might have gotten the Alamo, Iowa St Bowl.
3. If the 2018 team was, were to have been Teleported into either of the 2 10-2 Rosebowl years, guess what?
The 2018 team would have probably gotten a Rosebowl with a 11-2 season.
4. The 2018 season gets a epic mother of all ASTERISK next to the season for EPIC SNUB, HOSE JOB, BEING CHEATED, ETC, BY THE TARGETING HIT JOB BY THE USC PLAYER THAT WAS INCOMPETANTLY, CROOCKEDY, WRONGLY NOT CALLED THAT TOOK A WIN AWAY FROM WSU, AND THE 2 FOOT OF SNOW, FREAK BLIZZARD, and the BOWL SELECTION COMMITTEE'S SCREWING, HOSING, SNUBBING WSU.
IF NOT FOR THAT SHET, WSU WOULD HAVE BEEN 12-1, 13-0, AND EITHER IN THE PLAYOFF, ROSEBOWL, COTTON BOWL, FIESTA BOWL, NY6 BOWL, etc.
That 2018 season was THE EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, NY6 Bowl season.
It had 11 wins, which alone is the MOST WINS IN A SEASON IN THE MODERN WSU COUGAR FOOTBALL ERA, and should have been 12 or 13 wins at minimum.
And it was a epic season. It had COLLEGE EFFIN GAME DAY IN PULLMAN
I would take any rational, logical, factual, etc, WSU fan, would, could, should take that 2018 Minshew ROSEBOWL EQUIVALENT season over the 2 10-2 Rosebowl seasons, that didnt get hosed, screwed, snubbed out of the Rosebowl. and didnt have a conference championship game to deal with, where the winner of the conference championship, which could be a 6-6 team, could goto the Rosebowl over a 10-2, BEST RECORD IN PAC 12 TEAM, that didnt even play in the conference championship.
Great post, and even then, I'm not convinced Leach was phoning it in. I think he possibly had a bit of a dip in commitment, going from the affect of a fast food worker (even during the good times, like 2018) to a DMV employee (in 2019), but the main issue was having his whole staff poached. I can't think of a single coach in a lower-tier Power 5 situation who ever has been able to navigate having his key assistants poached repeatedly and being asked to replace them on a budget constantly. Someone like Saban can do it because it's Bama, he's Saban, and because they can pay ridiculous amounts to bring in ex-NFL head coaches to be assistants supported by ex-college head coaches and other stars serving as analysts and shit like that.
The win total is really an apples to oranges comparison. Price didn't have the facilities and probably had to paint his own office.
He came in as a nobody from Weber State and didn't have the name or facilities Leach had...yet he reached greater heights.
Rather than go down the same old Leach v. Price debate, can you imagine if we had hired Mike Leach to replace Mike Price in 2003?
Sponge hates Leach & had zero faith from the Jump in Provo.
(Documented here of all places)
He’s pushed all his chips into the Rolo Era.
(Documented here again of all places)
Cougatron has it all on record.
I’m already enjoying the show.
(Documented here of all places)
He’s pushed all his chips into the Rolo Era.
(Documented here again of all places)
Cougatron has it all on record.
I’m already enjoying the show.
Nobody?
Mike Price had coached at WSU for 4 years as an assistant under Sweeney, Jackie Sherrill and Warren Powers. Mike Price was also a candidate for the head coaching job when Jim Walden and Dennis Erickson were hired.
Mike Price was also AD at Weber State.
If you get this much enjoyment out of what someone who you have never met posts on a message board, may I suggest you get some new hobbies.
Yes, I want Rolo to succeed. And contrary to what you believe, I am happy Leach succeeded.
It is documented here that you want Rolo to fail. I'm sure Tron, the message board secretary, is keeping the minutes
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