JDL suspended, Calvin leaving

[Flatlandcoug]

"Leach is a great program builder but he is not a builder of championship teams. 20 years of evidence says that its unlikely to happen at MSU."

Flat, there is no question that your statement is factually correct. Someone who wanted to say, "but this time it is different" could cite some advantages that MSU has, starting with easier access to closer recruiting. But if they wished to do that, they should also admit that any advantages that MSU has are at least offset (if not more than offset) by the more dominant members of their conference. So...long story short...this time it is highly unlikely to be different.

Agree completely. Leach will have resources and talent that he's never had before but LSU, Bama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida all have more resources and tradition. Texas A&M and Tennessee are also higher in the food chain (at least traditionally). When you look at how MSU has fared in the SEC compared to how WSU has fared in the Pac-12, it becomes obvious that Leach has taken on a more difficult task than he had at Wazzu. The Bulldogs went 17-52 in one stretch from 2001-2006. That's not Paul Wulff bad....but it's the same ballpark. I respect the hell out of Leach and he'll make the Bulldogs a tough out.....but I'll be amazed if he ever wins the division.

 

[mikalalas]

2018 was not equivalent to an NY6 bowl equivalent season. If anyone outside the conference really respected us, we would have been invited to the Fiesta Bowl. They took 9-3 LSU instead. You can play woulda, coulda, shoulda about the Apple Cup....but we frickin' lost the game. We were one play away from beating Michigan in the 1997 Rose Bowl, does that mean it was basically a national championship season? The answer is no.

To be fair, the 2018 team could only play the teams that were on the schedule and it's not their fault that Stanford, Oregon and Utah all turned out to be ok...but not great teams. It's not their fault that USC didn't realize that they sucked until after they played us. Wyoming was supposed to be decent and they weren't. According to Massey, we faced the #54 schedule in 2018. For perspective, our 2002 schedule was #13 in the country and we were 10-2 heading into the Rose Bowl (with a banged up QB at that point). Our 1997 schedule was also ranked #13 by Massey. 2001 is the closest comparison with the 2018 season. Massey had our schedule ranked #48 and we played crap for non-conference that year. Oregon and UW were the only two good teams on that schedule and we lost to them.

The 1997 team faced off against seven teams that Massey ranked in the Top 25. The 2002 squad faced the #1 (Ohio State), #2 (USC) and #3 (Oklahoma) ranked teams according to Massey. If not for Gesser's leg injury, we beat the mutts that year (and maybe not get killed by OU). I can't even imagine the pain that the Palouse Posse (1994) would have laid on Minshew. It would have been a close game between the 1994 team and 2018 team if only because Chad Davis sucked donkey balls.....but I'd bet on that 1994 team in a heartbeat.

Take your ALL CAPS, woulda, coulda, shouldas and excuses and just accept the fact that the 2018 squad was fun to watch.....but not a championship caliber team. I enjoyed the hell out of that season, but the 1994, 1997, 2002 and 2003 teams would have all thumped that 2018 squad. Leach is a great program builder but he is not a builder of championship teams. 20 years of evidence says that its unlikely to happen at MSU.

Your still not addressing that:

1. USC Targeted Minshew, committed a TARGETING penalty.

That Penalty was WRONGLY not called.

It was scandalous. It was incompetance.

And after the fact, it came out that Woody CHEATED, INTERFERED.

That situation was, is similar to the Pac 12 ref calling a foul on WSU with .0001 of 1 second left, for only 1 fan, player stepping on the court, causing a WSU loss to Oregon.

Except this was worse then even that.

Even ESPN, and EVERYONE in SPORTS MEDIA said that WSU WAS HOSED, and EQUIVALENTLY WON THAT USC game, and that it took the USC player trying to cheat, do a targeting penalty, and it took the CHEATING, INTERFERING Woody, INCOMPETANT, SCANDALOUS PAC 12 REFS to beat WSU.

That was a EQUIVALENT WIN vs USC.

And if WOODY had not cheated, interfered. If the PAC 12 REFS had not been cheating, scandalous, incompetant, WSU would have, is EQUIVALENT to at least a 11-1 prebowl season, and would have either gone to been equivalent to a Rosebowl, Conference Championship, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, NY6 Bowl.

Even ESPN recognized that. Even the Sports Media recognized that.

You not recognizing that is either IGNORANCE on your part an or at worst VALIDATES, says its ok what USC, USC player, Woody, Pac 12 Refs did.

2018 does get a ASTERISK, and a EQUIVALENCY, because of what USC, USC player, Woody, Pac 12 Refs did.

Even ESPN, and Sports media recognizes that.

Its time for you, WSU fans to recognize that.

Its one thing for non WSU fans to not recognize that.

Its not ok for WSU fans to not recognize that.

Stop Validating the BullShet USC, USC players, Woody, PAC 12 Refs, etc, did, by not saying, accepting that 2018 is a ASTERISK, EQYIVALENT season of either a 11-1 prebowl season, Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, etc.

 

[chipdouglas]

Spin it however you want, but 2001-03 was the best three year stretch in school history and it isn't close. The 2002 team (with a healthy Gesser) would have wiped the field with any Leach led WSU team and it likely wouldn't have been close. Price may have gone in 2003.....but he was directly responsible for that stretch of football.

I enjoyed the hell out of the 2018 season, but that 11-2 record is about as legit as all those 11 win Boise State seasons we used to bag on. We lost to the only true Top 25 team on our schedule and to a USC team that finished with a losing record. It was a a fun season, but Price had four teams that were likely better than that team.

When talking about the state of the program when they took over, I was on campus in 1989 and Erickson left Price with an absolute sh!tshow when it came to the character of the players on the team at that time. There were a lot of good guys, but that was clearly the MCMW (more criminals more wins) method of recruiting before Price. He had to gut the team to get rid of the cancers and start over from scratch in 1990.

When talking about bowl wins, it's important to remember that WSU went 2-4 in bowl games under Leach including a loss to an MWC team and an absolute ass-kicking at the hands of a 9-3 Michigan State team that wasn't highly regarded heading into the game. Our Rose Bowl losses were to the national champions in 1997 and a 12-2 OU team that finished #5 in the country. There is nothing to suggest that Leach wouldn't have gotten beaten badly in those games......if he had even been able to get us there.

I respect Mike Leach and would have been happy to keep him, but he's never won a conference title in close to 20 years of coaching, despite being given plenty of time to do so.....something Mike Price did twice while defeating Top Five opponents in our own conference along the way. If Mike Price and Rien Long had stayed in 2003, another Rose Bowl run just might have happened.

Leach had unhappy players throughout his tenure and it's something that's just part of the business right now for players to leave. It's dumb to judge Rolovich right now. It took Leach five years to have his first legitimately good team. Maybe we give Rolovich more than 1/2 of a season before we proclaim him a lost cause.

I knew this would happen; I'm just surprised it took a few days.

1. Pointing out that Price wasn't the coach in '03 and therefore doesn't own the 10-win three-peat is not "spin" - it's an undeniable fact. You don't get credit for seasons you didn't coach.
2. You're contradicting yourself by crediting Price momentum with '03 success, while denying there is any meaningful difference between inheriting a Walden/Erickson team (decent) or a Wulff team (worst ever). Which is it?
3. Bagging on Leach's bowl record is silly. He got us to bowls at 2x the rate of Price, which can't be explained merely as a function of bowl proliferation. Would you rather get there, or watch UW again in a given year? Also, a fine objection after Oklahoma used us as a mop bucket during our supposedly "best ever" era.
4. Year in and year out, Leach had a better record, and by an average of about 20% head-to-head. Given a nearly-decade-long resume, I don't know how one trumps this. Your "gut" tells you otherwise?
5. The rest of your claims are "eyeball test" stuff, which is conjecture in the realm of "my dad could beat up your dad." In that 11-win year, we got robbed @SC and were a hair from 12-1, conference champs and actual playoffs/crystal football talk. Who knows: maybe the "undefeated" excitement even gets us our first Leach Apple Cup win and beyond (where Clemson smokes us in the NCG)? We'll never know, just like we'll never know which team was better. Moreover, this isn't about one year or one stretch (on paper Leach wins either way) - it's about year-over-year excellence.

Maybe your gut is right about random year-vs-year matchups on who was better, but we'll never know. We do know the W/L, the # of bowls, the best year, best stretch, etc., and it all points in one direction. AFAIK there is no quantitative case that moves your POV from conjecture to statistical reality.

 

[grahamcoug]

This was probably mentioned somewhere else, but Tennessee has the following departures: 4 qb's, 5 wr's and 7 lb's among their 31 total departures. I guess I am thankful we "only" have 19 departures. Just trying to be positive.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I knew this would happen; I'm just surprised it took a few days.

1. Pointing out that Price wasn't the coach in '03 and therefore doesn't own the 10-win three-peat is not "spin" - it's an undeniable fact. You don't get credit for seasons you didn't coach.
2. You're contradicting yourself by crediting Price momentum with '03 success, while denying there is any meaningful difference between inheriting a Walden/Erickson team (decent) or a Wulff team (worst ever). Which is it?
3. Bagging on Leach's bowl record is silly. He got us to bowls at 2x the rate of Price, which can't be explained merely as a function of bowl proliferation. Would you rather get there, or watch UW again in a given year? Also, a fine objection after Oklahoma used us as a mop bucket during our supposedly "best ever" era.
4. Year in and year out, Leach had a better record, and by an average of about 20% head-to-head. Given a nearly-decade-long resume, I don't know how one trumps this. Your "gut" tells you otherwise?
5. The rest of your claims are "eyeball test" stuff, which is conjecture in the realm of "my dad could beat up your dad." In that 11-win year, we got robbed @SC and were a hair from 12-1, conference champs and actual playoffs/crystal football talk. Who knows: maybe the "undefeated" excitement even gets us our first Leach Apple Cup win and beyond (where Clemson smokes us in the NCG)? We'll never know, just like we'll never know which team was better. Moreover, this isn't about one year or one stretch (on paper Leach wins either way) - it's about year-over-year excellence.

Maybe your gut is right about random year-vs-year matchups on who was better, but we'll never know. We do know the W/L, the # of bowls, the best year, best stretch, etc., and it all points in one direction. AFAIK there is no quantitative case that moves your POV from conjecture to statistical reality.

1) While the 03 season doesn't count on Price's record, it's delusional to suggest that he wasn't the person responsible for that team. 2001 to 2003 was the best run in school history......not 2016-2018, regardless of coach, which is exactly what I said to start with.

2) As far as Erickson goes, I had a friend who was a freshman on that 1989 team and he quit the team after it became obvious in 1990 that it was a poisonous mixture of Erickson guys vs Price guys and he was just there for his criminal justice degree. Anyone in school at that time knows that Erickson left Price with a bunch of baggage.

3) It's important to note that two of our bowl appearances under Leach wouldn't have happened with the bowl system that Price had to work within. 2013 and 2019 would have been home for the holidays without the proliferation of irrelevant bowls that has happened in the past 10 years or so. Four straight bowls would have still been a good accomplishment though.

4) Everyone knows that Leach is better at building teams that win 7-9 wins than any other coach in WSU's modern history. He's good at that. He sucks at winning conference championships. Frankly, if I had to pick between Price and Leach to take over a bad program, I'd hire Leach every time. I do believe that Mike Price had finally figured things out in Pullman by 1999 and had set the table to be good for a long time. Doba and his staff (emphasis on staff) squandered away a program that was ready to be good for a while. If I had to pick between where Price left the program and where Leach left the program.....I think the answer is obvious.....even to the most devout Leach fan.

5) 2018 is still a year that was more fun than "great". As I said above, it compares very closely to our 2001 squad. Seat of the pants, I put 2018 above 2001, but that 11th win came because of schedule....not because it was better than our other top tier teams over the years. And again, it was a fun season. I had a blast and enjoyed that season. Doesn't make that a great team. Eyeball test or not, my dad could definitely beat up your dad and nobody in their right mind who watched the 1997, 2002 or 2003 teams thinks that 2018 team was on the same level. I think the Posse in 1994 would have won too...but I'll admit that one is the sketchiest just because that 1994 offense was so putrid.

 

[spongeworthy12]

1. 2018 was a EQUIVALENT ASTERISK CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP, ROSEBOWL, NY6 BOWL EAQUIVALENT SEASON.

2. Thats because: IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR THE CHEATING, CROOKED, INCOMPETANT, SCANDALOUS, WRONGLY UNCALLED USC TARGETING PENALTY, WSU WOULD HAVE WON THAT GAME, SO THAT GAME IS, SHOULD BE THE EQUIVALENT OF A WIN.

3. The 1 and 1/2 ffoot, feet of snow, blizzard cup, that FAVORED UW's RUNNING GAME, and DESTROYED THE AIR RAID. While cant say WSU would have won, WSU losing was directly because of that blizzard, and eithout that blizzard WSU might, maybe, probabky even probably would, coukd, should have won. And because of that, that's the EQUIVALENT of at least a half a win.

4. Because of points above, WSU would have had a 11-1 record prebowl, would have gone to conference championship, and either the Rosebowl, Playoff, Cottonbowl, Fiestabowl, NY6 bowl, and not the Alamobowl.

5. So because of points above 2018 was a Rosebowl, Conference Championship esque, EQUIVALENT season.

6. Because of above. STOP saying that Leach didnt have a Rosebowl, Conference Championship season, when he did(EQUIVALENT) or would have IF NOT FOR THE EPIC BULLSHET CRAP, SNUB, etc, that would have caused PRICE, SABAN, ANY WOULD BE WSU coach to have the same result as Leach.

7. You, others saying that Leach either didnt have a Rosebowl, Conference Championship, or at least a ASTERISK ROSEBOWL, CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP EQUIVALENCE IS EXTREMELY UNFAIR TO LEACH, MINSHEW, THE 2018 TEAM.

So STOP.

8. No one is saying what your saying everyone is saying about Rolo.

There is legit cause for a WEE LITTLE TINY BIT OF CONCERN.

And thats what people have, and are saying, expressing their wee little tiny bit of concern

Are you smoking rocks? If so, no judgement.

We still had to score in the USC game. While that was a shitty call, we still would have had to kick a fg to tie or a td to win.

And what makes you think that we cooukd have beaten the Huskies when Leach needed a miracle just to win his only Apple Cup?

That team barely beat an Iowa State team in the bowl game who started a frosh qb.

You are the one who needs to "stop".

I am guessing you weren't old enough to remember the 97 team or 2002 team...and that's ok.

 

[dgibbons]

2018 was not equivalent to an NY6 bowl equivalent season.

There is an 11.2 to 88.76 percent chance that it was.

 

[BiggsCoug]

This was probably mentioned somewhere else, but Tennessee has the following departures: 4 qb's, 5 wr's and 7 lb's among their 31 total departures. I guess I am thankful we "only" have 19 departures. Just trying to be positive.

UT is a dumpster fire right now. They won't return to any kind of solid program until they stop hiring and firing coaches every 3 seasons.

 

[mikalalas]

1) While the 03 season doesn't count on Price's record, it's delusional to suggest that he wasn't the person responsible for that team. 2001 to 2003 was the best run in school history......not 2016-2018, regardless of coach, which is exactly what I said to start with.

2) As far as Erickson goes, I had a friend who was a freshman on that 1989 team and he quit the team after it became obvious in 1990 that it was a poisonous mixture of Erickson guys vs Price guys and he was just there for his criminal justice degree. Anyone in school at that time knows that Erickson left Price with a bunch of baggage.

3) It's important to note that two of our bowl appearances under Leach wouldn't have happened with the bowl system that Price had to work within. 2013 and 2019 would have been home for the holidays without the proliferation of irrelevant bowls that has happened in the past 10 years or so. Four straight bowls would have still been a good accomplishment though.

4) Everyone knows that Leach is better at building teams that win 7-9 wins than any other coach in WSU's modern history. He's good at that. He sucks at winning conference championships. Frankly, if I had to pick between Price and Leach to take over a bad program, I'd hire Leach every time. I do believe that Mike Price had finally figured things out in Pullman by 1999 and had set the table to be good for a long time. Doba and his staff (emphasis on staff) squandered away a program that was ready to be good for a while. If I had to pick between where Price left the program and where Leach left the program.....I think the answer is obvious.....even to the most devout Leach fan.

5) 2018 is still a year that was more fun than "great". As I said above, it compares very closely to our 2001 squad. Seat of the pants, I put 2018 above 2001, but that 11th win came because of schedule....not because it was better than our other top tier teams over the years. And again, it was a fun season. I had a blast and enjoyed that season. Doesn't make that a great team. Eyeball test or not, my dad could definitely beat up your dad and nobody in their right mind who watched the 1997, 2002 or 2003 teams thinks that 2018 team was on the same level. I think the Posse in 1994 would have won too...but I'll admit that one is the sketchiest just because that 1994 offense was so putrid.

You and others are STILL overlooking that:

1. If that targeting penalty would have been called like it should have been etc:

A. Minshew would have been 1st down and 10 to go on about the 13 yard line to 23 yard line, with 30 seconds to 45 seconds to 1 minute left in game.

At MINIMUM WSU would have BLOODY DAMN LIKELY at least gotten about a 33 to 43 yard FG to tie, and about a 59% chance of getting a TD.

Minshew was on a HOT STREAK, MARCHING THRU USC DEFENSE AS IF IT WAS BUTTER.

Yeah sure it was theoretically, technically possible, that WSU/Minshew might have thrown a INT, or fumbled, or missed the FG, or had the kickoff returned for a game winning TD for USC.

But that wouldnt have been BLOODY DAMN LIKELY.

Instead it was BLOODY DAMN LIKELY that WSU would have either FG tying it, or a TD to win it.

But Leach/Minshew/WSU/Fans/Players, etc, were extremely UNFAIRLY denied the BLOODY DAMN GOOD LIKELY EXTREMELY HIGH PROBABILITY that WSU ties/wins that game, by the CHEATING, USC PLAYER TARGETING, WOODY CHEATING, INTEREFERING, PAC 12 REFS SCREWING WSU.

Because of that THAT WAS A BLODDY DAMN LIKELY WSU WIN THAT WSU WAS CHEATED OUT OF.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT THAT WAS, SHOULD HAVE BEEN A BLOODY DAMN LIKELY 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON EQUIVALENT, AND EITHER A ROSEBOWL, Cotton bowl, fiesta bowl equivalent season.

Even ESPN recognized that.

Even the Sports Media recognized that.

Thats why USC, Woody, Pac 12 Refs, got such a BLACK EYE over that SCANDAL.

If 2018 were not a 11-1 prebowl, Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl equivalent team, season, and either doesnt get, doesnt deserve a giant mother of all ASTERIX, that says EQUIVALENT, IF THAT WASNT, SHOULDNT BE THE CASE, THEN USC, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS WOULDNT HAVE RIGHTLY GOTTEN SUCH A BLACK EYE OVER WHAT HAPPENED.

Any True WSU fan, gets that, accepts that, andcrightly recognizes, says that 2018 was the EQUIVALENT to a 11-1 prebowl season, and was the EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl Season.

Especially since there have been 7-4 Pac 12 Rosebowl teams in the past.

There have been a lot of 7-4, 8-4, 8-3, 9-3, 9-2 Pac 12 Rosebowl teams.

If those teams are Rosebowl teams, then WSU, Leach's, Minshew's 2018 11-2 season was a Rosebowl Equivalent Season.

Not accepting that 2018 was a 11-2 EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, WRONGLY VALIDATES, EXCUSES WHAT USC, USC PLAYER, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, ETC, DID IN CHEATING, INTERFERING, INCOMPETANCE, ETC, AND INVITES MORE OF THE SAME BULLSHET FROM USC, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, ETC.

 

[Coug90]

Are you smoking rocks? If so, no judgement.

We still had to score in the USC game. While that was a shitty call, we still would have had to kick a fg to tie or a td to win.

And what makes you think that we cooukd have beaten the Huskies when Leach needed a miracle just to win his only Apple Cup?

That team barely beat an Iowa State team in the bowl game who started a frosh qb.

You are the one who needs to "stop".

I am guessing you weren't old enough to remember the 97 team or 2002 team...and that's ok.

Just about every game and season in the history of football there’s a group of fans that say woulda coulda shoulda. I didn’t like the Porter Gustin no-call either or the weather that obviously caused our offense some problems in the AC but if I remember right, we didn’t beat everyone 70-0 that year so there was probably some other fans that had some woulda coulda shoulda about games w us. You are what your record says you are, and it was a fun year. End of story.

 

[spongeworthy12]

Just about every game and season in the history of football there’s a group of fans that say woulda coulda shoulda. I didn’t like the Porter Gustin no-call either or the weather that obviously caused our offense some problems in the AC but if I remember right, we didn’t beat everyone 70-0 that year so there was probably some other fans that had some woulda coulda shoulda about games w us. You are what your record says you are, and it was a fun year. End of story.

Word!

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You and others are STILL overlooking that:

1. If that targeting penalty would have been called like it should have been etc:

A. Minshew would have been 1st down and 10 to go on about the 13 yard line to 23 yard line, with 30 seconds to 45 seconds to 1 minute left in game.

At MINIMUM WSU would have BLOODY DAMN LIKELY at least gotten about a 33 to 43 yard FG to tie, and about a 59% chance of getting a TD.

Minshew was on a HOT STREAK, MARCHING THRU USC DEFENSE AS IF IT WAS BUTTER.

Yeah sure it was theoretically, technically possible, that WSU/Minshew might have thrown a INT, or fumbled, or missed the FG, or had the kickoff returned for a game winning TD for USC.

But that wouldnt have been BLOODY DAMN LIKELY.

Instead it was BLOODY DAMN LIKELY that WSU would have either FG tying it, or a TD to win it.

But Leach/Minshew/WSU/Fans/Players, etc, were extremely UNFAIRLY denied the BLOODY DAMN GOOD LIKELY EXTREMELY HIGH PROBABILITY that WSU ties/wins that game, by the CHEATING, USC PLAYER TARGETING, WOODY CHEATING, INTEREFERING, PAC 12 REFS SCREWING WSU.

Because of that THAT WAS A BLODDY DAMN LIKELY WSU WIN THAT WSU WAS CHEATED OUT OF.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT THAT WAS, SHOULD HAVE BEEN A BLOODY DAMN LIKELY 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON EQUIVALENT, AND EITHER A ROSEBOWL, Cotton bowl, fiesta bowl equivalent season.

Even ESPN recognized that.

Even the Sports Media recognized that.

Thats why USC, Woody, Pac 12 Refs, got such a BLACK EYE over that SCANDAL.

If 2018 were not a 11-1 prebowl, Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl equivalent team, season, and either doesnt get, doesnt deserve a giant mother of all ASTERIX, that says EQUIVALENT, IF THAT WASNT, SHOULDNT BE THE CASE, THEN USC, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS WOULDNT HAVE RIGHTLY GOTTEN SUCH A BLACK EYE OVER WHAT HAPPENED.

Any True WSU fan, gets that, accepts that, andcrightly recognizes, says that 2018 was the EQUIVALENT to a 11-1 prebowl season, and was the EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl Season.

Especially since there have been 7-4 Pac 12 Rosebowl teams in the past.

There have been a lot of 7-4, 8-4, 8-3, 9-3, 9-2 Pac 12 Rosebowl teams.

If those teams are Rosebowl teams, then WSU, Leach's, Minshew's 2018 11-2 season was a Rosebowl Equivalent Season.

Not accepting that 2018 was a 11-2 EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, WRONGLY VALIDATES, EXCUSES WHAT USC, USC PLAYER, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, ETC, DID IN CHEATING, INTERFERING, INCOMPETANCE, ETC, AND INVITES MORE OF THE SAME BULLSHET FROM USC, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, ETC.

Like I said above.......if you are going to be playing woulda, coulda, shoulda, shouldn't we go ahead and award ourselves a national championship for that 1997 season since we might have scored a touchdown if they had allowed us to get that last snap off in the Rose Bowl? I mean, according to your logic, we pretty much won the game, right?

I do have to say that I find it adorable that you think you know what a "True" WSU fan is. I've been doing this for over three decades. Have you? I was at the Rose Bowl in January 1998 and 2003. I saw the 1993, 1994, 1997, 2001, 2002 and 2003 teams in person. Did you? You talk about "True" fans, but I've seen a lot of good football and a lot of bad football over the years. Being a fan doesn't mean blind to the truth when it's out there.

I know how small the difference between good and bad can be at WSU. In 1989, I watched us start out 6-1 (and nearly 7-0) only to watch us bomb the end of the season because of a couple injuries and finish 6-5. I watched as the same thing happened in 1993 when we started out 5-2 but lost our QB and with that....the season. I watched the 2000 team struggle to find an identity and lose four games by less than one TD but knowing that they were poised to be good. Our best teams have had moments of glory against great competition. Those teams still had baffling losses including some ugly Apple Cups, but inevitably those Apple Cup games came down to the final possession, not double digit beatdowns where our offense was completely ineffective.

FWIW, the 2018 team is definitely one of the ten best teams in our school's history. Heck, it is very arguably in the Top 5....but anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that it was a team that benefitted from a kind schedule and the failure to win either the AC or the conference means that it can't ever be rated the best ever, even if it has the most wins. If the number of wins is the only thing that matters, Boise State is clearly superior to WSU almost every single year.....and I don't think any of us believe that. Boise State finished 12-1 in 2002 and we only finished 10-3........clearly the Broncos were better, right? Weirdly enough, the AP poll had us #10 and them #15 though. Strange that they didn't value raw number of wins...right?

 

[spongeandshoot]

Like I said above.......if you are going to be playing woulda, coulda, shoulda, shouldn't we go ahead and award ourselves a national championship for that 1997 season since we might have scored a touchdown if they had allowed us to get that last snap off in the Rose Bowl? I mean, according to your logic, we pretty much won the game, right?

I do have to say that I find it adorable that you think you know what a "True" WSU fan is. I've been doing this for over three decades. Have you? I was at the Rose Bowl in January 1998 and 2003. I saw the 1993, 1994, 1997, 2001, 2002 and 2003 teams in person. Did you? You talk about "True" fans, but I've seen a lot of good football and a lot of bad football over the years. Being a fan doesn't mean blind to the truth when it's out there.

I know how small the difference between good and bad can be at WSU. In 1989, I watched us start out 6-1 (and nearly 7-0) only to watch us bomb the end of the season because of a couple injuries and finish 6-5. I watched as the same thing happened in 1993 when we started out 5-2 but lost our QB and with that....the season. I watched the 2000 team struggle to find an identity and lose four games by less than one TD but knowing that they were poised to be good. Our best teams have had moments of glory against great competition. Those teams still had baffling losses including some ugly Apple Cups, but inevitably those Apple Cup games came down to the final possession, not double digit beatdowns where our offense was completely ineffective.

FWIW, the 2018 team is definitely one of the ten best teams in our school's history. Heck, it is very arguably in the Top 5....but anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that it was a team that benefitted from a kind schedule and the failure to win either the AC or the conference means that it can't ever be rated the best ever, even if it has the most wins. If the number of wins is the only thing that matters, Boise State is clearly superior to WSU almost every single year.....and I don't think any of us believe that. Boise State finished 12-1 in 2002 and we only finished 10-3........clearly the Broncos were better, right? Weirdly enough, the AP poll had us #10 and them #15 though. Strange that they didn't value raw number of wins...right?

Totally agree.

I would like to add to the woulda should game.

If Leaf doesn't overthrow McWashington in the endzone, win win that game.

If we didn't give up two bombs to Tai Streets, we win that game. Heck, if we don't give up one we win that game. They couldn't run on us.

If Black doesn't get hurt, the game probably isn't even close.

I think you left off the 92 team. That team sure had some goofy moments of some bad football
and Bledsoe was pretty bad at times...but we had a young D that could play and we smoked a top 5 team in the Apple Cup that still went on to the Rosebowl.

But yeah. remembering all of this doesn't make us true fans.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Just about every game and season in the history of football there’s a group of fans that say woulda coulda shoulda. I didn’t like the Porter Gustin no-call either or the weather that obviously caused our offense some problems in the AC but if I remember right, we didn’t beat everyone 70-0 that year so there was probably some other fans that had some woulda coulda shoulda about games w us. You are what your record says you are, and it was a fun year. End of story.

I take issue with the opinion that ISU gave us fits as well as what you said.

After i rewatched that game I had a tough time figuring out why i was so anxious the first time. The game wasn't the crushing victory i had expected, but we dominated whistle to whistle. I feel like the team looked past ISU like the fans did and it showed.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

If Black doesn't get hurt, the game probably isn't even close.

Ive always felt like this was the key to that game.

 

[chipdouglas]

1) While the 03 season doesn't count on Price's record, it's delusional to suggest that he wasn't the person responsible for that team. 2001 to 2003 was the best run in school history......not 2016-2018, regardless of coach, which is exactly what I said to start with.

2) As far as Erickson goes, I had a friend who was a freshman on that 1989 team and he quit the team after it became obvious in 1990 that it was a poisonous mixture of Erickson guys vs Price guys and he was just there for his criminal justice degree. Anyone in school at that time knows that Erickson left Price with a bunch of baggage.

3) It's important to note that two of our bowl appearances under Leach wouldn't have happened with the bowl system that Price had to work within. 2013 and 2019 would have been home for the holidays without the proliferation of irrelevant bowls that has happened in the past 10 years or so. Four straight bowls would have still been a good accomplishment though.

4) Everyone knows that Leach is better at building teams that win 7-9 wins than any other coach in WSU's modern history. He's good at that. He sucks at winning conference championships. Frankly, if I had to pick between Price and Leach to take over a bad program, I'd hire Leach every time. I do believe that Mike Price had finally figured things out in Pullman by 1999 and had set the table to be good for a long time. Doba and his staff (emphasis on staff) squandered away a program that was ready to be good for a while. If I had to pick between where Price left the program and where Leach left the program.....I think the answer is obvious.....even to the most devout Leach fan.

5) 2018 is still a year that was more fun than "great". As I said above, it compares very closely to our 2001 squad. Seat of the pants, I put 2018 above 2001, but that 11th win came because of schedule....not because it was better than our other top tier teams over the years. And again, it was a fun season. I had a blast and enjoyed that season. Doesn't make that a great team. Eyeball test or not, my dad could definitely beat up your dad and nobody in their right mind who watched the 1997, 2002 or 2003 teams thinks that 2018 team was on the same level. I think the Posse in 1994 would have won too...but I'll admit that one is the sketchiest just because that 1994 offense was so putrid.

1. It's delusional to suggest CMP doesn't "own" '03 in exactly the same way it's delusional to suggest Wulff = Erickson/Walden. CML's first 2 years are a total rebuild. If they weren't, he cracks 0.600 and we're not even having this conversation
2. Who cares about intangible "baggage"? You can't find ONE person on this board who would have rather inherited Wulff's post-08 team than Walden/Erickson's 0.500+ team, "baggage" and all
3. Why are we cherrypicking bowls? I already preempted this argument by pointing out you can't explain away a 2X success rate via "bowl proliferation". Also, own the Price bowls too. I mean, you guys brought up the Rose Bowls, where we embarrassed ourselves with more eyeballs than ever, esp vs OU
4. Considering we were robbed @SC and almost no Coug fan disagrees (similar to missed PI with Oregon at home several years back), CML DID put in the work to win a legitimate conference title. Plus, this "the highs were higher with Price" argument doesn't hold water when you look at the W/L record during ANY stretch head-to-head, as there is no stretch of years where Price outperformed Leach
5. 2018 was a God's honest 12 win year which P12 refs made an 11-win year - still the best ever. The rest is conjecture, and not an argument I care to have.

End of day, Leach has:

• Better overall W/L record
• Better W/L record in ANY stretch of years (tie for best 2-season stretch)
• Nearly 2X the bowl appearances
• Better P12 & NCAA passing/offensive records
• Despite worse early-year headwinds + barer cupboard
• Etc etc

I understand this still doesn't pass the Flat "gut test," so I guess I'll just have to stick with having the statistical case entirely in the Leach camp, flawed as he was.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Ive always felt like this was the key to that game.

Agree with both you and sponge. That 97 team was crazy good and if Black hadn't been lost to injury, it likely would've been a different outcome. Of course, going deeper down the woulda, shoulda, coulda rabbit hole, what if Leaf calls time out on 4th and 3 instead of taking the snap against a defense that was clearly bringing the house and we beat ASU 32-30 instead of losing that game? If Leaf had been just a little more mature that year....we might have playing Michigan with a national championship on the line. Football is fickle.

 

[spongeandshoot]

1. It's delusional to suggest CMP doesn't "own" '03 in exactly the same way it's delusional to suggest Wulff = Erickson/Walden. CML's first 2 years are a total rebuild. If they weren't, he cracks 0.600 and we're not even having this conversation
2. Who cares about intangible "baggage"? You can't find ONE person on this board who would have rather inherited Wulff's post-08 team than Walden/Erickson's 0.500+ team, "baggage" and all
3. Why are we cherrypicking bowls? I already preempted this argument by pointing out you can't explain away a 2X success rate via "bowl proliferation". Also, own the Price bowls too. I mean, you guys brought up the Rose Bowls, where we embarrassed ourselves with more eyeballs than ever, esp vs OU
4. Considering we were robbed @SC and almost no Coug fan disagrees (similar to missed PI with Oregon at home several years back), CML DID put in the work to win a legitimate conference title. Plus, this "the highs were higher with Price" argument doesn't hold water when you look at the W/L record during ANY stretch head-to-head, as there is no stretch of years where Price outperformed Leach
5. 2018 was a God's honest 12 win year which P12 refs made an 11-win year - still the best ever. The rest is conjecture, and not an argument I care to have.

End of day, Leach has:

• Better overall W/L record
• Better W/L record in ANY stretch of years (tie for best 2-season stretch)
• Nearly 2X the bowl appearances
• Better P12 & NCAA passing/offensive records
• Despite worse early-year headwinds + barer cupboard
• Etc etc

I understand this still doesn't pass the Flat "gut test," so I guess I'll just have to stick with having the statistical case entirely in the Leach camp, flawed as he was.

It is safe to assume you didn't see the 97 team or the 2002 team play. If you did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The 2018 team sure was fun...but they barely beat a 24th ranked team in the bowl game. I think that might even be the highest ranked team he beat in a bowl. Was Miami ranked? Maybe 20th. The 2003 team beat Texas which was highly ranked...5th if I recall.

 

[grahamcoug]

UT is a dumpster fire right now. They won't return to any kind of solid program until they stop hiring and firing coaches every 3 seasons.

Thanks for the response. I did some quick math on Pac-12 transfers. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me at work, but since September there have been 120ish total transfer decisions out of the Pac-12, with 56 still undecided where they will go, 52 have transferred to non power 5 conferences, and about 10? transferred to another power-5 conference. I got the transfer list from brand x. The transfer list also includes walk-ons and early transfers like Martin (WR) from WSU to OSU.

At first, I thought that Power 5 schools would heavily raid good talent on other power 5 schools. That hasn't been the case. Most transfers are looking for more playing time anywhere and end up anywhere from the likes of Idaho, Temple, Fresno State, Appalachian State, Central Michigan, etc...

 

[mikalalas]

Just about every game and season in the history of football there’s a group of fans that say woulda coulda shoulda. I didn’t like the Porter Gustin no-call either or the weather that obviously caused our offense some problems in the AC but if I remember right, we didn’t beat everyone 70-0 that year so there was probably some other fans that had some woulda coulda shoulda about games w us. You are what your record says you are, and it was a fun year. End of story.

I disagree.

Bone's record wasnt what it said it was.

Bone, WSU, Klay and co,,BEAT Oregon.

with .0001 of 1 second left, the Pac 12 Refs WRONGLY called a TECHNICAL FOUL on a WSU fan who stepped foot on the court to join the coaches, players, all the other fans for storming the court to celebrate.

That may or may not have been a TECHNICALLY LEGAL call, but it almost never ever gets called.

ESPN, etc, did a news piece on it.

They said that that in the ENTIRE History of College Basketball, that students have stormed the court after a win, hundreds, thousands of time.

Out of all that, its only been called 2 times. Once against either Old Dominion, I think it was.

The other was WSU vs Oregon.

WSU WON that game. REFS CHEATED, STOLE that game from WSU, because OREGON was a NCAA tourny team, and couldnt let little ole WSU beat a PAC 12 flagship team, even if they have to cheat and or call a foul thats NEVER called.

WSU won that game. That Bone first year gets a ASTERIX that say EQUIVALENT to a 17 win, CBI, NIT season, instead of the 16 wins no post season their record says.

The Seahawks.

I forget which year it was. But Seahawks were 9-7, 10-6, and it was against the NY Jets.

Vinny Testeverde was the QB of the Jets.

Last play of the game with time expiring, with 5 yards to go to score a TD to win.

Vinny Testeverde did a QB keeper and was CLEARLY down on the 2 yard line, 3 yard line, 4 yard line, WELL SHORT of the Goal Line. IT WASNT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

But despite that, the NFL Refs still either cheatingly or INCOMPETANTLY WRONGLY called it a TD for a WRONG Jets win.

And even tho they had instant replay, and could as Refs check instant replay, they refused, didnt check.

The Seahawks logged a OFFICIAL PROTEST with the NFL, offices, commissioner, and was not reversed, even tho the NFL acknowledged that the call was wrong and that it was not a TD, and that it was the Seahawks who had won, should have won.

All the Sports media agreed.

If the Seahawks had been given the credit for that win like they deserved, they woukd had been a Wild Card entry into the Playoffs.

That Seahawks team gets a ASTERIX and gets credit for, is the EQUIVALENT of a 1 more win, Playoff season, no matter what
their wrong official record says.

And 2018 season is like both of those examples.

2018 just like those examples DESERVE to get a ASTERIX, DO GET A ASTERIX, Unofficial credit, is the EQUIVALENCE of either a 11-1 prebowl season, instead of 10-2 prebowl record, and is the unofficial equivalent of either a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, and certainly more then only just a Alamo Bowl, unofficially.

That wasnt just a noncall.

A simple noncall is like holding or false start penalties not being called.

1. It was a ILLEGAL HIT JOB BY PORTER GUSTIN.

2. IT WAS A OBVIOUS TARGETING PENALTY.

3. ITS A SAFETY ISSUE for QB's.

4. Porter Gustin had been guilty of same wrong behavior, and was caled for it the next game.

5. The Refs called Targeting on WSU, on a LESS CLEAR situation then the Porter Gustin noncall.

6. WOODY the Pac 12 official in charge of officials, officiating, CHEATED, INTEREFERED, told the Refs to call the Targeting on WSU, and to NOT call targeting on Porter Gustin, and to let the non call stand, and to not check or double check Replay.

The Refs of course did as WOODY told them.

6. That was a SCANDAL. The Refs, WOODY, Pac 12, etc, got SUCH A BLACK EYE, because of the SCANDAL.

ESPN, the sports media was saying WSU GOT HOSED, SCREWED, (Just like the Seahawks got hosed, screwed)

7. That SCANDAL, CHEATING, INTEREFERING, NONCALL, etc, cost WSU a FIRST DOWN AND 10 TO GO ON ABOUT THE 13 YARDLINE TO 33 YARD LINE, WITH 30 SECONDS TO 60 SECONDS LEFT, WITH MINSHEW CARVING USC UP LIKE BUTTER, WITH A BLOODY DAMN LIKELY FG TIE OR TD WIN.

8. What was done to the Seahawks, Bone in his 1st year, and to the 2018 team, was all EXTREMELY UNFAIR, WRONG PERIOD.

9. As such they get a UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX, AND UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, EQUIVALENCY.

10. Its a FAIR unofficial statement to say that they were the EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cottonbowl, Fiesta Bowl, 11-1 prebowl, instead of 10-2 prebowl, a playoff Seahawks, instead of no playoff Seahawks, a 17 win Bone 1st year team, instead of a 16 win Bone 1st year team.

10. Not accepting, refusing to give UNOFFICIAL credit, EQUIVALENCY, IS TO VALIDATE, SAY ITS OK WHAT HAPPENED, WHEN WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT OK, WAS BULLSHET, AND SAYING ITS OK, INVITES MORE OF THAT ILK, BULLSHET.

11. If 2018 didnt deserve UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, EQUIVALENCY, then:

A. ESPN wouldnt have agreed, said that WSU got hosed, screwed, cheated, and deserved unofficial credit,equivalency for 1 more win, and something better then the Alamo Bowl.

B. Woody, Pac 12 wouldnt have gotten such a BLACK EYE.

C. It wouldnt have been such a SCANDAL.

12. This wasnt a simple noncall of something like a false start penalty, etc. If it were, then what happened wouldnt have been So SCANDALOUS, BLACK EYE GIVING.

13. Anything that SCANDALOUS, BLACK EYE GIVING, gives UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, EQUIVALENCY.

14. Thats not simple woulda, coulda, shoulda.

15. Woulda, coulda, shoulda is something like this:

A. If XYZ WSU player hadnt done something like fumble(Colorado St in the bowl game), then WSU woulda, coulda, shoulda, won, beat, Colorado St. in the bowl game.

16. 2018 vs USC, Porter Gustin, Woody, Pac 12 Refs thing, was not a woulda, coulda, shoulda like the Colorado St example, or even a example of say where a uncalled false start game cost somebody a game.


The BOTTOM line is THAT WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, PORTER GUSTIN, ETC, CHEATED, HOSED, SCREWED WSU OUT OF A WIN. THATS A FACT. AND ITS NOT WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA.

THE FACT IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO WSU WAS EXTREMELY UNFAIR.

FACT IS THAT 2018 WSU DESERVES UNOFFICIAL CREDIT EQUIVALENCY FOR 1 MORE WIN, A 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON, INSTEAD OF A 10-2 PREBOWL SEASON, EQUIVALENT OF SOMETHING MORE THEN ALAMO BOWL LIKE ROSEBOWL, COTTON BOWL, FIESTA BOWL.

2018 WSU DESERVES A UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX GIVING THEM THAT CREDIT

2018 WSU DESERVES ITS FANS GIVING 2018 WSU A UNOFFICIAL ASTERISK GIVING THAT UNOFFICIAL EQUIVALENCY CREDIT.

ANY WSU FAN WHO DOESNT DO THAT, IS NOT A TRUE WSU FAN, AND VALIDATES, SAYS ITS OK FOR THE PORTER GUSTIN, WOODY, PAC 12 REF BULLSHET THAT WAS DONE TO WSU TO HAVE BEEN DONE, AND INVITES, SAYS PLEASE DICK LITTLE OLE WSU SOME MORE PLEASE.

 

[Glad Cougar]

1. Why are we cherrypicking bowls? I already preempted this argument by pointing out you can't explain away a 2X success rate via "bowl proliferation". Also, own the Price bowls too. I mean, you guys brought up the Rose Bowls, where we embarrassed ourselves with more eyeballs than ever, esp vs OU

Did we actually embarrass ourselves in the Rose Bowl vs. Michigan? That's what this statement implies. I can understand using the OU game as an example, but the Cougars acquitted themselves quite well against the eventual national champion Wolverines, don't you think?

Glad Cougar

 

[spongeworthy12]

I disagree.

Bone's record wasnt what it said it was.

Bone, WSU, Klay and co,,BEAT Oregon.

with .0001 of 1 second left, the Pac 12 Refs WRONGLY called a TECHNICAL FOUL on a WSU fan who stepped foot on the court to join the coaches, players, all the other fans for storming the court to celebrate.

That may or may not have been a TECHNICALLY LEGAL call, but it almost never ever gets called.

ESPN, etc, did a news piece on it.

They said that that in the ENTIRE History of College Basketball, that students have stormed the court after a win, hundreds, thousands of time.

Out of all that, its only been called 2 times. Once against either Old Dominion, I think it was.

The other was WSU vs Oregon.

WSU WON that game. REFS CHEATED, STOLE that game from WSU, because OREGON was a NCAA tourny team, and couldnt let little ole WSU beat a PAC 12 flagship team, even if they have to cheat and or call a foul thats NEVER called.

WSU won that game. That Bone first year gets a ASTERIX that say EQUIVALENT to a 17 win, CBI, NIT season, instead of the 16 wins no post season their record says.

The Seahawks.

I forget which year it was. But Seahawks were 9-7, 10-6, and it was against the NY Jets.

Vinny Testeverde was the QB of the Jets.

Last play of the game with time expiring, with 5 yards to go to score a TD to win.

Vinny Testeverde did a QB keeper and was CLEARLY down on the 2 yard line, 3 yard line, 4 yard line, WELL SHORT of the Goal Line. IT WASNT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

But despite that, the NFL Refs still either cheatingly or INCOMPETANTLY WRONGLY called it a TD for a WRONG Jets win.

And even tho they had instant replay, and could as Refs check instant replay, they refused, didnt check.

The Seahawks logged a OFFICIAL PROTEST with the NFL, offices, commissioner, and was not reversed, even tho the NFL acknowledged that the call was wrong and that it was not a TD, and that it was the Seahawks who had won, should have won.

All the Sports media agreed.

If the Seahawks had been given the credit for that win like they deserved, they woukd had been a Wild Card entry into the Playoffs.

That Seahawks team gets a ASTERIX and gets credit for, is the EQUIVALENT of a 1 more win, Playoff season, no matter what
their wrong official record says.

And 2018 season is like both of those examples.

2018 just like those examples DESERVE to get a ASTERIX, DO GET A ASTERIX, Unofficial credit, is the EQUIVALENCE of either a 11-1 prebowl season, instead of 10-2 prebowl record, and is the unofficial equivalent of either a Rosebowl, Cotton Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, and certainly more then only just a Alamo Bowl, unofficially.

That wasnt just a noncall.

A simple noncall is like holding or false start penalties not being called.

1. It was a ILLEGAL HIT JOB BY PORTER GUSTIN.

2. IT WAS A OBVIOUS TARGETING PENALTY.

3. ITS A SAFETY ISSUE for QB's.

4. Porter Gustin had been guilty of same wrong behavior, and was caled for it the next game.

5. The Refs called Targeting on WSU, on a LESS CLEAR situation then the Porter Gustin noncall.

6. WOODY the Pac 12 official in charge of officials, officiating, CHEATED, INTEREFERED, told the Refs to call the Targeting on WSU, and to NOT call targeting on Porter Gustin, and to let the non call stand, and to not check or double check Replay.

The Refs of course did as WOODY told them.

6. That was a SCANDAL. The Refs, WOODY, Pac 12, etc, got SUCH A BLACK EYE, because of the SCANDAL.

ESPN, the sports media was saying WSU GOT HOSED, SCREWED, (Just like the Seahawks got hosed, screwed)

7. That SCANDAL, CHEATING, INTEREFERING, NONCALL, etc, cost WSU a FIRST DOWN AND 10 TO GO ON ABOUT THE 13 YARDLINE TO 33 YARD LINE, WITH 30 SECONDS TO 60 SECONDS LEFT, WITH MINSHEW CARVING USC UP LIKE BUTTER, WITH A BLOODY DAMN LIKELY FG TIE OR TD WIN.

8. What was done to the Seahawks, Bone in his 1st year, and to the 2018 team, was all EXTREMELY UNFAIR, WRONG PERIOD.

9. As such they get a UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX, AND UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, EQUIVALENCY.

10. Its a FAIR unofficial statement to say that they were the EQUIVALENT to a Rosebowl, Cottonbowl, Fiesta Bowl, 11-1 prebowl, instead of 10-2 prebowl, a playoff Seahawks, instead of no playoff Seahawks, a 17 win Bone 1st year team, instead of a 16 win Bone 1st year team.

10. Not accepting, refusing to give UNOFFICIAL credit, EQUIVALENCY, IS TO VALIDATE, SAY ITS OK WHAT HAPPENED, WHEN WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT OK, WAS BULLSHET, AND SAYING ITS OK, INVITES MORE OF THAT ILK, BULLSHET.

11. If 2018 didnt deserve UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, EQUIVALENCY, then:

A. ESPN wouldnt have agreed, said that WSU got hosed, screwed, cheated, and deserved unofficial credit,equivalency for 1 more win, and something better then the Alamo Bowl.

B. Woody, Pac 12 wouldnt have gotten such a BLACK EYE.

C. It wouldnt have been such a SCANDAL.

12. This wasnt a simple noncall of something like a false start penalty, etc. If it were, then what happened wouldnt have been So SCANDALOUS, BLACK EYE GIVING.

13. Anything that SCANDALOUS, BLACK EYE GIVING, gives UNOFFICIAL CREDIT, EQUIVALENCY.

14. Thats not simple woulda, coulda, shoulda.

15. Woulda, coulda, shoulda is something like this:

A. If XYZ WSU player hadnt done something like fumble(Colorado St in the bowl game), then WSU woulda, coulda, shoulda, won, beat, Colorado St. in the bowl game.

16. 2018 vs USC, Porter Gustin, Woody, Pac 12 Refs thing, was not a woulda, coulda, shoulda like the Colorado St example, or even a example of say where a uncalled false start game cost somebody a game.


The BOTTOM line is THAT WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, PORTER GUSTIN, ETC, CHEATED, HOSED, SCREWED WSU OUT OF A WIN. THATS A FACT. AND ITS NOT WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA.

THE FACT IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO WSU WAS EXTREMELY UNFAIR.

FACT IS THAT 2018 WSU DESERVES UNOFFICIAL CREDIT EQUIVALENCY FOR 1 MORE WIN, A 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON, INSTEAD OF A 10-2 PREBOWL SEASON, EQUIVALENT OF SOMETHING MORE THEN ALAMO BOWL LIKE ROSEBOWL, COTTON BOWL, FIESTA BOWL.

2018 WSU DESERVES A UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX GIVING THEM THAT CREDIT

2018 WSU DESERVES ITS FANS GIVING 2018 WSU A UNOFFICIAL ASTERISK GIVING THAT UNOFFICIAL EQUIVALENCY CREDIT.

ANY WSU FAN WHO DOESNT DO THAT, IS NOT A TRUE WSU FAN, AND VALIDATES, SAYS ITS OK FOR THE PORTER GUSTIN, WOODY, PAC 12 REF BULLSHET THAT WAS DONE TO WSU TO HAVE BEEN DONE, AND INVITES, SAYS PLEASE DICK LITTLE OLE WSU SOME MORE PLEASE.

Dude...we got our asses kicked in the Apple Cup.

Great teams don't get their asses kicked in their rivalry games.

And the great thing is...you don't get to decide who is and who is not a WSU fan.

I also suggest laying off the Adderall.

 

[etowncoug]

Did we actually embarrass ourselves in the Rose Bowl vs. Michigan? That's what this statement implies. I can understand using the OU game as an example, but the Cougars acquitted themselves quite well against the eventual national champion Wolverines, don't you think?

Glad Cougar

No embarrassment in the 1998 Rose Bowl. Still think the 2018 team handles both the 1997 and 2002 teams. Neither defense had the personnel to slow down the Air Raid which is designed to shred a 4-3 playing a ton of man.

 

[spongeworthy12]

No embarrassment in the 1998 Rose Bowl. Still think the 2018 team handles both the 1997 and 2002 teams. Neither defense had the personnel to slow down the Air Raid which is designed to shred a 4-3 playing a ton of man.

You are assuming Doba would have played a 4-3 against a pass every down team.

 

[CougEd]

You are assuming Doba would have played a 4-3 against a pass every down team.

Oh Doba would have rushed four . But he would be able to put three corners out there in Paymah trufant and David . Plus Coleman . Oh Abdullah could have moved up to linebacker .

If those two teams played 10 times , 2002 wins 8

 

[mikalalas]

Dude...we got our asses kicked in the Apple Cup.

Great teams don't get their asses kicked in their rivalry games.

And the great thing is...you don't get to decide who is and who is not a WSU fan.

I also suggest laying off the Adderall.

The ONLY reason why WSU got their ASSES kicked as you put it in the Apple Cup is 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, and blizzardly, windy, sleet conditions that made it IMPOSSIBLE for the AIR RAID to THROW THE BALL or throw it accurately enough to move the chains, get 1st downs, score, etc.

It also made the UW running game harder to defend the UW SPECIALTY of Running the ball.

If the weather hadnt been 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, windy blizzard weather, WSU would have had about a 43% to 53% chance of winning.

Yeah thats a little tiny bit of woulda coulda shoulda, but a logical, rational, reasonable.

But be that as it is, even tho I disagree with you, even if your wrong, their is a little tiny bit of room for you to disagree on that apple cup, and give it to you.

But even if give the Apple Cup to you, there is NO GIVING YOU THE USC GAME.

USC, PORTER, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, CHEATED, STOLE, HOSED, SCREWED, INTEREFERED, ETC, a win from WSU.

Yeah there was about a 2% chance that WSU would miss a 33 to 43 yard FG, or give up a Kick off TD return, or a Interception, or a fumble, etc.

But 99% that USC game was a win, that WSU was cheated out of by USC, Porter, Woody, Pac 12 refs.

Thats not just a simple false start penalty non call, that wasnt just a woulda coulda shoulda like the Colorado St Bowl game where say if no fumble.....

That was USC, Porter, Woody, Refs STEALING a win away from WSU.

So because of that, even if give you your point about the UW game, that was a UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX EQUIVALENT TO AT LEAST 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON, INSTEAD OF A 10-2 PREBOWL SEASON, and at least something better then a Alamo bowl, like a Rosebowl, or a Cotton Bowl or a Fiesta Bowl, etc.

As Mr Spock would say, your being ILLOGICAL.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

The ONLY reason why WSU got their ASSES kicked as you put it in the Apple Cup is 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, and blizzardly, windy, sleet conditions that made it IMPOSSIBLE for the AIR RAID to THROW THE BALL or throw it accurately enough to move the chains, get 1st downs, score, etc.

It also made the UW running game harder to defend the UW SPECIALTY of Running the ball.

If the weather hadnt been 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, windy blizzard weather, WSU would have had about a 43% to 53% chance of winning.

Yeah thats a little tiny bit of woulda coulda shoulda, but a logical, rational, reasonable.

But be that as it is, even tho I disagree with you, even if your wrong, their is a little tiny bit of room for you to disagree on that apple cup, and give it to you.

But even if give the Apple Cup to you, there is NO GIVING YOU THE USC GAME.

USC, PORTER, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, CHEATED, STOLE, HOSED, SCREWED, INTEREFERED, ETC, a win from WSU.

Yeah there was about a 2% chance that WSU would miss a 33 to 43 yard FG, or give up a Kick off TD return, or a Interception, or a fumble, etc.

But 99% that USC game was a win, that WSU was cheated out of by USC, Porter, Woody, Pac 12 refs.

Thats not just a simple false start penalty non call, that wasnt just a woulda coulda shoulda like the Colorado St Bowl game where say if no fumble.....

That was USC, Porter, Woody, Refs STEALING a win away from WSU.

So because of that, even if give you your point about the UW game, that was a UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX EQUIVALENT TO AT LEAST 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON, INSTEAD OF A 10-2 PREBOWL SEASON, and at least something better then a Alamo bowl, like a Rosebowl, or a Cotton Bowl or a Fiesta Bowl, etc.

As Mr Spock would say, your being ILLOGICAL.

A foot and a half of snow during the AC? Um......ok. I'm assuming that we had to play uphill both ways too?

 

[spongeandshoot]

The ONLY reason why WSU got their ASSES kicked as you put it in the Apple Cup is 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, and blizzardly, windy, sleet conditions that made it IMPOSSIBLE for the AIR RAID to THROW THE BALL or throw it accurately enough to move the chains, get 1st downs, score, etc.

It also made the UW running game harder to defend the UW SPECIALTY of Running the ball.

If the weather hadnt been 1 and 1/2 feet of snow, windy blizzard weather, WSU would have had about a 43% to 53% chance of winning.

Yeah thats a little tiny bit of woulda coulda shoulda, but a logical, rational, reasonable.

But be that as it is, even tho I disagree with you, even if your wrong, their is a little tiny bit of room for you to disagree on that apple cup, and give it to you.

But even if give the Apple Cup to you, there is NO GIVING YOU THE USC GAME.

USC, PORTER, WOODY, PAC 12 REFS, CHEATED, STOLE, HOSED, SCREWED, INTEREFERED, ETC, a win from WSU.

Yeah there was about a 2% chance that WSU would miss a 33 to 43 yard FG, or give up a Kick off TD return, or a Interception, or a fumble, etc.

But 99% that USC game was a win, that WSU was cheated out of by USC, Porter, Woody, Pac 12 refs.

Thats not just a simple false start penalty non call, that wasnt just a woulda coulda shoulda like the Colorado St Bowl game where say if no fumble.....

That was USC, Porter, Woody, Refs STEALING a win away from WSU.

So because of that, even if give you your point about the UW game, that was a UNOFFICIAL ASTERIX EQUIVALENT TO AT LEAST 11-1 PREBOWL SEASON, INSTEAD OF A 10-2 PREBOWL SEASON, and at least something better then a Alamo bowl, like a Rosebowl, or a Cotton Bowl or a Fiesta Bowl, etc.

As Mr Spock would say, your being ILLOGICAL.

What you don't get is that kicking that FG...and probably making it had we not got hosed...only ties the game. It doesn't win it.

And regarding UW. Leach has shown zero ability to move the ball against a Jimmy Lake rush 3 drop 8 defense...so I don't know where you are getting these probabilities of 43 and 53%

It sure didn't come from the scientific method.

 

[dgibbons]

You are assuming Doba would have played a 4-3 against a pass every down team.

For the 97 team what else would he have done? That team was one deep.

The 97 team would have had a hard time with the Air Raid. No DB depth, and the LBs would have gotten eaten alive by the crossers.

 

[95coug]

For the 97 team what else would he have done? That team was one deep.

The 97 team would have had a hard time with the Air Raid. No DB depth, and the LBs would have gotten eaten alive by the crossers.

I hesitate to weigh in on this debate, but...

The thing that’s being overlooked is the simple fact that football is about matchups. Not just team v.team, but positions and individuals. And, while I think that end to end, the ‘97 season has to be considered our best, I don’t like how they match up against the ‘18 team. Not enough depth in the secondary to cover the stable of WRs for the whole game, not enough speed in the front 7 to handle the backs catching passes out of the backfield. I mean, Tai Streets and Brian Griese burned our D...and I’d take Minshew plus Patmon, Winston, or Martin against Griese-Streets.
The ‘97 O would have the definite advantage over the ‘18 D, but I don’t think it holds up as well. The D could bring the kind of pressure we struggled against at ASU, and Leaf didn’t have the mobility that was that defense’s biggest problem. I think ‘18 wears them down, and also probably gets more takeaways. It’s a hell of a fun game, but ‘18 pulls away in the end.

I think ‘02 has a better shot against ‘18. That team had better speed on the edge and stands a better chance of corralling Minshew before he could get downfield. I think they’d still have trouble covering the RBs, and also probably can’t keep up in the secondary for 4 quarters. Offensively they’d create problems for ‘18, and Gesser was mobile enough to move the pocket...which is where ‘18 really started having problems. This matchup might come down to turnovers.

‘03 defensively is similar to ‘02, maybe a little better. But the offense would be less effective without Gesser’s mobility, and they turned it over more.

I think head to head, the ‘18 team beats them all at least half the time. But that’s speculative, and it doesn’t mean ‘18 was our best team/season. ‘97 and ‘02 won conference titles and went toRose Bowls. ‘02 was top 5 for a while. ‘97 won at USC and in Seattle, and had a Heisman contender. ‘03 beat down Texas on national TV. ‘18 had none of that.

 

[etowncoug]

Oh Doba would have rushed four . But he would be able to put three corners out there in Paymah trufant and David . Plus Coleman . Oh Abdullah could have moved up to linebacker .

If those two teams played 10 times , 2002 wins 8

Trufant's biggest strength was locking up an opponents best receiver all game. So he'd lock down either Tay/Jackson or Easop/Patmon but Jason David gets abused by the receiver he doesn't cover. Also, no way Will Derting watches from the sidelines as the coaches were incredibly high on him and no way he covers Calvin or Harris/Bell.

Suggesting a special teams player who recorded 9 tackles all year would suddenly get a ton of PT is interesting. They would have thought Ira Davis would be like having another DB out there and would have been forced to abandon that experiment early. Paymah as a true freshman would have been stretched but how quickly we forget how rarely we used a nickel. It was Davis sucker punching David that got him into the rotation.

We did get to see how the 2002 team handled the Air Raid though. We got embarrassed.

 

[Glad Cougar]

I hesitate to weigh in on this debate, but...

The thing that’s being overlooked is the simple fact that football is about matchups. Not just team v.team, but positions and individuals. And, while I think that end to end, the ‘97 season has to be considered our best, I don’t like how they match up against the ‘18 team. Not enough depth in the secondary to cover the stable of WRs for the whole game, not enough speed in the front 7 to handle the backs catching passes out of the backfield. I mean, Tai Streets and Brian Griese burned our D...and I’d take Minshew plus Patmon, Winston, or Martin against Griese-Streets.
The ‘97 O would have the definite advantage over the ‘18 D, but I don’t think it holds up as well. The D could bring the kind of pressure we struggled against at ASU, and Leaf didn’t have the mobility that was that defense’s biggest problem. I think ‘18 wears them down, and also probably gets more takeaways. It’s a hell of a fun game, but ‘18 pulls away in the end.

I think ‘02 has a better shot against ‘18. That team had better speed on the edge and stands a better chance of corralling Minshew before he could get downfield. I think they’d still have trouble covering the RBs, and also probably can’t keep up in the secondary for 4 quarters. Offensively they’d create problems for ‘18, and Gesser was mobile enough to move the pocket...which is where ‘18 really started having problems. This matchup might come down to turnovers.

‘03 defensively is similar to ‘02, maybe a little better. But the offense would be less effective without Gesser’s mobility, and they turned it over more.

I think head to head, the ‘18 team beats them all at least half the time. But that’s speculative, and it doesn’t mean ‘18 was our best team/season. ‘97 and ‘02 won conference titles and went toRose Bowls. ‘02 was top 5 for a while. ‘97 won at USC and in Seattle, and had a Heisman contender. ‘03 beat down Texas on national TV. ‘18 had none of that.

That's a good distinction.....maybe the '18 team beats the '97 or '02 team head to head, but the fact that the '18 team didn't even win the north division outright let alone be conference champions playing in the Rose Bowl gives the other two WSU teams the edge for me.

Glad Cougar

 

[95coug]

Trufant's biggest strength was locking up an opponents best receiver all game. So he'd lock down either Tay/Jackson or Easop/Patmon but Jason David gets abused by the receiver he doesn't cover. Also, no way Will Derting watches from the sidelines as the coaches were incredibly high on him and no way he covers Calvin or Harris/Bell.

Trufant’s worst games were against the receivers who had height plus speed or size. I think he would do fine against Martin & Jackson....except we wouldn’t be able to put him on them. There’s no way David covers Patmon or Winston, so Tru has to...and I think they even give him trouble - especially Patmon. Or we bring Williams over to help David...which leaves holes elsewhere. And ‘02 Paymah against Bell, Harris, or Boobie is a serious mismatch.

‘02 vs. ‘18 would end up the best head to head matchup, I think. It might split right down the middle. They'd be shootouts, with both offenses running wild. The difference would be which D could step up and make a key stop or get a takeaway. But the ‘18offense took care of the ball pretty well, so I’m inclined to say this one goes 60-40 to ‘18.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

For all the talk of how unstoppable the Air Raid is.......it isn't hard to stop if you have the right guys. Our defensive lines in both 1997 and 2002 were definitely good enough to put pressure on the QB without relying on extra guys. It's easy to forget that we held national champion Ohio State to 25 points in 2002 and national champion Michigan to 21 points in 1997. The 2002 defense had three future NFL DB's on it. The 2002 team (with a healthy Gesser) would have absolutely wiped the field with the 2018 team.....every single time.

The 1997 team faced two of the best teams in the country and was 21 yards away from beating both of them despite losing our starting running back early against the Wolverines. That team was a bit flaky at times and was prone to overconfidence and laziness, but they won the conference in a year when the conference was really damned good. UCLA's losses were to WSU and Tennessee, who went a combined 21-4, UW's losses were to teams that went a combined 40-9, USC's losses were to teams that were a combined 48-10, Arizona's losses were to teams that were a combined 45-11. Our conference was very strong that year and we won the damned thing. Contrast that to 2018, when our best opponent....UW, had losses to teams that were a combined 37-16. 2018 UW would have arguably been the fifth strongest team that we faced in 1997...and they kicked our ass in 2018.

Again, nobody's trying to say that 2018 wasn't a fun year and a good team.....but anyone that is objective knows that it was more fun than great.

 

[spongeandshoot]

Trufant's biggest strength was locking up an opponents best receiver all game. So he'd lock down either Tay/Jackson or Easop/Patmon but Jason David gets abused by the receiver he doesn't cover. Also, no way Will Derting watches from the sidelines as the coaches were incredibly high on him and no way he covers Calvin or Harris/Bell.

Suggesting a special teams player who recorded 9 tackles all year would suddenly get a ton of PT is interesting. They would have thought Ira Davis would be like having another DB out there and would have been forced to abandon that experiment early. Paymah as a true freshman would have been stretched but how quickly we forget how rarely we used a nickel. It was Davis sucker punching David that got him into the rotation.

We did get to see how the 2002 team handled the Air Raid though. We got embarrassed.

Oklahoma didn't run the Air Raid.

 

[spongeandshoot]

People are also forgetting that the 97 team had Michael Freakin Black, a 1,000 yd back, and could run the ball and keep the 18 offense off the field.

Again, when you can barely beat a 24th rated Iowa State team, I think talk of 18 beating 97 is Poppycock.

 

[Observer11]

If you think 2018 WSU could beat 1997 WSU, you really need to follow another sport.

2002/2003 would be the only squad that stands a chance of winning more than 4 out of 10 times against 97.

Doba's Defense would slaughter Leach's one dimensional stuff. Multiple NFL guys on the D side of the ball. If Jimmy Lake can drop 8 and win with ease, Doba would decipher the same.

 

[Coug90]

1. It's delusional to suggest CMP doesn't "own" '03 in exactly the same way it's delusional to suggest Wulff = Erickson/Walden. CML's first 2 years are a total rebuild. If they weren't, he cracks 0.600 and we're not even having this conversation
2. Who cares about intangible "baggage"? You can't find ONE person on this board who would have rather inherited Wulff's post-08 team than Walden/Erickson's 0.500+ team, "baggage" and all
3. Why are we cherrypicking bowls? I already preempted this argument by pointing out you can't explain away a 2X success rate via "bowl proliferation". Also, own the Price bowls too. I mean, you guys brought up the Rose Bowls, where we embarrassed ourselves with more eyeballs than ever, esp vs OU
4. Considering we were robbed @SC and almost no Coug fan disagrees (similar to missed PI with Oregon at home several years back), CML DID put in the work to win a legitimate conference title. Plus, this "the highs were higher with Price" argument doesn't hold water when you look at the W/L record during ANY stretch head-to-head, as there is no stretch of years where Price outperformed Leach
5. 2018 was a God's honest 12 win year which P12 refs made an 11-win year - still the best ever. The rest is conjecture, and not an argument I care to have.

End of day, Leach has:

• Better overall W/L record
• Better W/L record in ANY stretch of years (tie for best 2-season stretch)
• Nearly 2X the bowl appearances
• Better P12 & NCAA passing/offensive records
• Despite worse early-year headwinds + barer cupboard
• Etc etc

I understand this still doesn't pass the Flat "gut test," so I guess I'll just have to stick with having the statistical case entirely in the Leach camp, flawed as he was.

I’m in agreement with you that leach was a more consistent coach, but to me you can throw out things like bowls and offensive/passing numbers comparing those two eras. Price if I remember right was more feast or famine and didn’t have many of those 6-5 years that are automatic bowls nowadays. But a couple of Leachs bowl teams wouldn’t have been back in the 80s/90s. And they are playing a completely different game today offensively. Always makes me cringe when people try to compare QB numbers from 20/30 years ago to today.

 

[CougEd]

Trufant's biggest strength was locking up an opponents best receiver all game. So he'd lock down either Tay/Jackson or Easop/Patmon but Jason David gets abused by the receiver he doesn't cover. Also, no way Will Derting watches from the sidelines as the coaches were incredibly high on him and no way he covers Calvin or Harris/Bell.

Suggesting a special teams player who recorded 9 tackles all year would suddenly get a ton of PT is interesting. They would have thought Ira Davis would be like having another DB out there and would have been forced to abandon that experiment early. Paymah as a true freshman would have been stretched but how quickly we forget how rarely we used a nickel. It was Davis sucker punching David that got him into the rotation.

We did get to see how the 2002 team handled the Air Raid though. We got embarrassed.

Ah...well if the game is played in November. you don't think that gives the edge to the 97 team? We are acting like UW are world beaters. Leaf can throw in crappy weather. You act like Molton and others could stop the fab 5. WSU had a running game and would use it. Utah/UW could slow down the air raid, so could the 97 team and they would keep the ball away from the 18 team.

And I don't think Doba is as dumb as you think.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I’m in agreement with you that leach was a more consistent coach, but to me you can throw out things like bowls and offensive/passing numbers comparing those two eras. Price if I remember right was more feast or famine and didn’t have many of those 6-5 years that are automatic bowls nowadays. But a couple of Leachs bowl teams wouldn’t have been back in the 80s/90s. And they are playing a completely different game today offensively. Always makes me cringe when people try to compare QB numbers from 20/30 years ago to today.

ppppffffttttt...

If Leaf was really good he could have gotten the same numbers with 200 less attempts than Minshew. Just shows how sucky he really was.