Leach detractors- have you seen IT?
- Thread starter wulffui
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You have to look at our history (Walden/Price) to better understand the nature of the program. It's the only reference we have in terms of people who came in to rebuild and how things would go if it was done correctly.
Walden and Price actually had better starting points than Leach but the pattern SHOULD be similar with a slight fluctuation.
So by looking at the history of the program it is very clear that struggles ALWAYS occur with the coaches that succeeded in taking us to a rebuild. It happened with Walden, It happened with Price, and it happened with Leach.
Typically there are a couple 3-4 win seasons but by year 4 a bowl game is typical as well as a break out of some sort.
Now AFTER year 4 there is a down swing again. Walden won just 3 games in year 5 Price won 5. The it up ticks then it goes down. That's the pattern until there is another big jump to championship competing. Price year 9 for example.
Wulff followed Leach, Price, and Walden, but where he screwed up was there was no bowl in 4 years and he recruited in the dirt which basically meant that year 5 6 7 were screwed under his tenure. Much like Leach having to start all freshmen every class in order to get some people to stick who can compete at the necessary level.
But since Wulff didn't recruit well and under performed in his tenure he was let go. And he should have been. Because the longer we kept him the further we were going to sink. If he had recruited well his first 3 years and there was a chance of not floundering again then yeah he should have been given year 5, but he didn't do that CougEd and you have to get over it, accept it, and let it go.
He was given 4 years. He didn't produce a bowl appearance, and he was recruiting in the bottom 20% of all FBS while he was here. He didn't compete well in the present nor did he leave us any real hope for the future. He had to go.
Leach, Walden, Erickson all 3 went to a bowl game in the first 4 years. All 3 had 3 wins as their lowest number of wins in a season.
Wulff... his losses were too low, and his highs weren't high enough, and his future was at the bottom. THAT is why he wasn't given a 5th year.
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Speaking of lies, how many times are you gonna ignore and lie about the issue of my coworker.
As to Hartune, Brown and the rest I did not comment on them before they made it to campus. Nor did I comment on Tuel until I saw him in the USC game. My comments have always been once they have been in a cougar uniform, not based on a video from HUDL.
And the one person I talked about in private, with Biggs was Mackay and how we laughed at the prospect he would be a TE or WR, that he was a natural rush DE.
So not sure why you have an issue then. We disagree on the starting points for sure. Not sure how you can say with a straight face losing Brink and having Rogers is remotely the same as starting with Tuel and Halliday. Or having Laurenzi Cooper Pole is the same Matt E and injured Ahmu and Toby Turpin who "flunked out".
But if your point is a coach should be given four years to evaluate I agree. So I appreciate you being the PR firm and telling peop
Actually it doesn't. It was never posted on this board. You get the difference, unless Yaki was stalking way back when, he would never had been privy to the conversation.
Not sure what my handle based on my nieces favorite cartoon when she was a toddler has anything to do with intellect. Your accusation about my other handle being racist is debatable and will get laughed at if you were anywhere but on a msg board with the type of people we have here.
You continue to duck and dodge Ed's question regarding posting his coworkers name. Not surprising.
Me either. Rogers wasn't broken the way Tuel and Halliday were. Maybe Wulff could have recruited at least ONE QB who wasn't injury prone.
I guess I fail to see where we differ in general principle. You are saying give the coach his latitude, keep things on our radar. Maybe have concerns but wait four years to really evaluate, and if things don't improve pull the trigger. You are saying let the process play out. Not sure I disagree.
My only disagreement is class rankings and how they should be measured. I totally agree that based on the rankings you use Wulff underperformed. If that is the measurement then yes, he didn't recruit Pac 10 players. I won't list the names that he hit on that showed they had upper level ability, but there were more defensive players drafted in the draft than Doba had his last four years recruiting.
So I don't look at rankings to be honest. Bartilone for example had less offers than who Leach let go but he had a good freshman year. He was productive.
We will have to be patient to see if Leach's class with a higher rank are good enough to build upon.
Wulff's ex OC at EWU was on the WSU staff before Doba was let go. Wulff and this OC stayed in touch during that time, and he knew very well what WSU had returning at QB, the O-line, and elsewhere. Wulff chose to not recruit a legitimate D1 quarterback for the transition, unless one clings to the notion that Calvin Schmidtke was D1.
Holy crap, I had a flat tire yesterday. Paul Wulff went to Home Depot and I am sure he dropped the nail in the road I ran over.
He should have performed weekly search and seizures on the Autofau house, he should have recruited Shawn Deeds who wouldn't get injured.
You know, there is enough reasons why Wulff should have been let go. The primary one is he didn't win enough. But to argue this other BS is simply BS.
You mean like Apodoca? The QB should have already been recruited by the previous staff.
His QB's didn't constantly get injured?
I don't even know what you want to contest, here.
Nothing. Halliday should have been more aware when Williams rolled up his leg and broke it half. Not sure why connor didn't move to get out of the way. Maybe Leach taught them to be stationary targets.
Or maybe it was the guy coaching him when he got his first season ending injury.
Just will be nice for Leach to get a QB who wasn't broken by Wulff, is all.
Because I saw him play. He only got in when we hammered on the dregs during the bowl season- and was below average then. And not in a "there's a lot of raw material here" way, either.
But we'll get some idea this year, with him at New Mexico.
I wish we'd scheduled New Mexico.
Ok we are going to look at what exactly Wulff was given.
Wulff in 2008 had 11 300+ lbs lineman Leach had only 8
Wulff had 10 seniors / Leach had 8
Wulff was given a program that went 5-7,6-6,4-7,5-6 and averaged in recruiting during those 4 years. 48
Leach was given a program that went 2-11,1-11,2-10, 4-8 and averaged in recruiting during those 4 years 85.
So yes with a straight face I can say that Wulff was handed a better situation, he was given a program that had won more games, more seniors, a larger line, and much better recruiting.
There were 16 Soph on Leach's first year. Wulff had 21. Leach was given less in every single aspect, and yet he won 12 games in 3 where as Wulff won 4 in 3.
That's all Wulffy is good for.
If he said all this BS to a room full of coaches, he would get laughed out of the room.
Only the people working to draw parallels between the current coach and the worst coach in team history truly think Leach had a fuller cupboard than Wulff. Especially since the best stuff in Leach's cupboard was rotten.
Maybe the Wulff staff. But no one lets them in any rooms anymore anyways.
Yes, I know how all the facts I present make your opinions only people related to you consider seem diminished. But it's ok, maybe someone will make a joke about one of the hundreds of dumb things you say and you can get all "pee your pants" mad about it.
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Ok, Ed. I guess your dozens of posts that you saw the lack of explosiveness on the recruiting video somehow vindicates you on whatever it is we're talking about.
I know, have a large number of posts in the past talking about recruiting before they get to campus. You got me counselor.
Its diminished only when a coach, any coach, gets blamed for an injury where the experienced QB was dumb enough not to step out of bounds. Let me ask you, when we played Oregon and Halliday chucked in 85 times, game was decided much earlier, lets say someone gets a random shot on Halliday on the 84th pass, what would you say about throwing the ball late and exposing Halliday to that hit?
Love the stats. Can we look at each stat one by one. Who were the 11 300 plus lineman?
Since you like history, as do I, go over 40 years of WSU history and tell me how many first year starters won at WSU.
That's fiction, though. Also, Halliday wasn't violently ill. You were gonna get me a Leach example. So far...? no- no Leach example.
Tuel getting injured against Idaho State would be "reference".
Ed, do you understand that Wulff was rightfully criticized for Tuel BEING ON THE FIELD against Idaho State?
KENNYALFRED
69 OL 6' 2" 300 JR Gig Harbor, WA
ADAMHINELINE
65 DT 6' 1" 301 FR Bellevue, WA
TOBYTURPIN
90 DT 6' 5" 301 SO Los Alamitos, CA
ANDREWROXAS
73 OL 6' 2" 303 SO Sun Valley, CA
STEVENAYERS
78 OL 6' 4" 304 FR Bellingham, WA
JOEEPPELE
67 OL 6' 8" 306 SO Vancouver, BC
KEVINFREITAG
56 OL 6' 3" 311 SO Maple Valley, WA
REEDLESUMA
66 OL 6' 4" 311 SO Laie, HI
B.J.GUERRA
72 OL 6' 3" 315 FR Moses Lake, WA
MATTEICHELBERGER
77 DT 6' 4" 317 SR Bellingham, WA
VAUGHNLESUMA
55 OL 6' 5" 329 FR Laie, HI
And as to first year starters let's see.
Matt Kegel 10 wins
Chad Davis 8 wins
Rypien 6 wins
Gesser 4 wins
Bledsoe / Gossen 3 wins if you want to count 1991 as his first starting year he won 4
Rossenbach 3 wins
Halliday - 3 wins
Lopina 2 wins
Lobster / Tuel 2 wins
Basically the worst starters were in the Wulff era.
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You clown me relentlessly? Good to know. I like clowns. I especially love it when you see the joy of children when they see a clown. Of course, I gave reasons in coming up with my point. Once again, your only reason once again is the same old "because I said so."
Kenny Alfred, a good Pac10 player. Agreed. Adam Highline a walkon on never played. Tony Turpin had academic issues and was booted. Roxas played a game in 2008, missed three because of a knee injury, missed all of 2009 because of a blood disorder. But a Pac 10 lineman. I believe he had injured his knee in 2011 as well. Guera was a good player.Steven Ayers played five games his freshman year and missed games in 2009 due to injury and finally gave up football because of concussions. So who knows if he was any good or not. My guess is he could have been good but never played because of injuries. Joey Eppele never turned out to be a player. There was a reason he was a grayshirt that never developed. Freitag was always hurt as well. Matt E certainly was not a Pac 10 DT. Vaughan Lesuma was a JC player, payed one year, and he was a legit Pac 10 player. Reed Lesuma went to a JC for a reason. So out of 11, 4 turned out to be Pac 10 lineman, and Lesuma was injured and/or gone after 2008. And guess what, none on the defensive line.
Actually Bledsoe started the last six games of 1990. Matt Kegel, Davis, and Rypien (split time with Turner) had three of the best defenses in school history. How many seniors started on defense in 1983, 94, and 2003?
So you have Bledsoe, Leaf, Rosie, all first round draft picks never won as underclassman and first year starters, and Gesser who was a great QB never won as first year starters.
Yes, if 2008's defense was like 94 and 2003 I would say what happened in 2008 as tragic.
And as to first year starters let's see.
Matt Kegel 10 wins
Chad Davis 8 wins
Rypien 6 wins
Gesser 4 wins
Bledsoe / Gossen 3 wins if you want to count 1991 as his first starting year he won 4
Rossenbach 3 wins
Halliday - 3 wins
Lopina 2 wins
Lobster / Tuel 2 wins
Basically the worst starters were in the Wulff era.[/QUOTE]
Actually Bledsoe started the last six games of 1990. Matt Kegel, Davis, and Rypien (split time with Turner) had three of the best defenses in school history. How many seniors started on defense in 1983, 94, and 2003?
So you have Bledsoe, Leaf, Rosie, all first round draft picks never won as underclassman and first year starters, and Gesser who was a great QB never won as first year starters.
Yes, if 2008's defense was like 94 and 2003 I would say what happened in 2008 as tragic.
And as to first year starters let's see.
Matt Kegel 10 wins
Chad Davis 8 wins
Rypien 6 wins
Gesser 4 wins
Bledsoe / Gossen 3 wins if you want to count 1991 as his first starting year he won 4
Rossenbach 3 wins
Halliday - 3 wins
Lopina 2 wins
Lobster / Tuel 2 wins
Basically the worst starters were in the Wulff era.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like your problem is with the original history thread Tron put forth.
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NO...I get that. Just like some criticize Leach for having Halliday in the last 10 minutes against Oregon chucking up 85 passes. I didn't agree with those critics either.
No I am talking about the busted leg in two spots by playing a freshman center and not having a more experienced player ready,
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